https://media1.giphy.com/media/FoH28ucxZFJZu/giphy.gif?cid=9b38fe91pbcrfr73b9nxrfqzhwmx8x26re9pyjhckjkacpai&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g 

 I'm not sure if you see my Amethyst's gif emojis when I respond with a Risitas?! Do you, with your method of accessing the Nostrwebs?  

 nostr was stood up to functional levels so fast. 

 What is the moment when we leave the early days? Big user inflow won't happen with the state of things but the status quo won't change if there is no organic demand for quality. 

I can't celebrate progress for progress sake. So many basic functions are still not working, those I mentioned are the most notorious, while more and more weird functions are being implemented on top. Sometimes it looks to me like some people try to reinvent the wheel. 

I wouldn't compare the speed or effectiveness of nostr development to neither bitcoin or email, it's happening a different era with never before seen possibilities of collaboration, funding, computation, network infrastructure, talent acquisition, distribution and urgency. 

I do see the enormous potential and readiness to get going but also no common goal, maximum fragmentation, and no obligation to deliver quality or finish anything. That's the curse of FOSS of course, there's no quality controla and no financial incentive, only ideological drive which pays no one's rent, and when I point out the flaws all I hear is 'well do it yourself' and 'it's free you shouldn't complain'.

The free relay model needs to end sooner than later, there is no free lunch, to pretend there is just prolongs the catastrophe.
I pay for an Instagram grade nostr client, immediately and double digits. But I pay for the product not the promise. For now, when I on board people, its exactly this: it's early man, don't take it to heart, it's all a bit weird, weirdstr we say, but one day, with or without you, it will be better!

Will, I wish one day you make the money you deserve for all the work you put in. Make it good, make us pay  

 Good points here 

 There is a far bigger problem than what you have highlighted:  People are building so many crazy-idea apps on top of a fundamental nostr layer which still has problems and still needs breaking changes. And now that they have, if we break those fundamentals everybody's houses of cards fall down.  And so IMHO all the rapid adoption is the thing that will probably kill nostr.  Far too much built on top of a still flimsy foundation that is now unable to be fixed.  I wrestle with this dilemma in my dreams at night, tossing and turning, considering all the ways to make subkeys happen and how every single one breaks something deeply, etc.

The issues in your OP are smallish bug/features that can very easily be solved by comparison. Amethyst can become less complicated (by automating things or something I dunno), and can add ability to tag somebody, and primal can add ability to block somebody. These are stupid simple problems that just haven't happened yet. I think your expectations of how things should already be are very high. 

 Somewhat agree with this. I'd be interested in a few bullet points for what you consider the most important breaking changes that are needed. 

 First, I shouldn't have said "need" that is too strong of a word. Nostr can keep going without breaking changes.

And in part I'm speaking in the abstract based on experience, based on the number of breaking changes that have happened so far and their approximate rate.

But I think some of the big things below app level are subkeys (for an offline masterkey) through something like a slightly modified NIP-26, binary events over websocket binary, something like negative filters or negentropy (specifics to be worked out), some kind of better relay usage for the many basic usages that actually exist (Vitor is working on that), ... that is off the top of my head.
 

 Yeah, I had a similar list in mind. Subkeys and key management/rollover in general being the elephant in the room, because you kind of need to break some things there, as everything is currently operating under the assumption that keys are not just identifiers, but identities.

I guess there's just a lot of defiance, because it's a big "I told you so" to stomach. 

 OK here's your list, I just found it, nevermind my previous comment.  

 Break it all now
Developers, users, we're all early adopters
Things breaking comes with the territory
And those were our choices
Rn the network is entirely ppl with faith and passion for the protocol
Ppl who can bear the pain of things breaking for a better future
Choices
1) break things now
2) break things later when nostr has millions of daily users and functional business models
3) set a broken protocol in stone forever and ever 

 "broken protocol" is a huge exaggeration  

 I'm just one guy with one eccentric view on this that I probably overstated.  But yes I think we are breaking it now, little by little at least. 

 I 100% agree with "break things now" 

 Is there a list of the protocol-level bugs out there? Do you have a list or do you have the time to write one down? Getting it out of your system also might help with the nightmares 😊

Yes I talked specifically about the on boarding and user experience, looking top down, outside in. I wish for the client devs to focus on the core business, to get the basics perfectly right before moving on to the funky stuff.

👉 Dear devs, learn and copy from those who have invested billions and decades of research in designing their addictive apps. Stand on Facebooks shoulders and grow even taller, there's nothing wrong about it. The Instagram UI is perfect, every teenage girl can use it and they do. 

Looking at Primal for example: It features a big lighting symbol front and center, that's not a social media app, it is a Bitcoin wallet with social functions. 

 “break those fundamentals” can you elaborate on this please? 
My few sats: Nostr isn’t bitcoin and still a toy. I guess that more experiments should be made to achieve the desired goals of decentralizing and make it censorship resistant! If it’s fails then it better to be now than we onboard millions on here and say “ooops it doesn’t work” 

 Nostr is a toy, yes.  A great toy, and developers love it.  Unlike bluesky, or mastodon, it is not set up for mass adoption, but is very good for R&D.  Opensats could change the equation, but they have an R&D strategy is working, rather than a growth strategy employed by bluesky.  And it may be a bit late, anyway, since some devs have left.  But this all might actually be good.  If you zoom out, you see that nostr is build on http.  Rather than nostr having to take over everything, you could instead, take the best parts, and deploy them to a wider audience on http in general.  In fact, this is by far the most likely path.  Nostr has bitcoin native payments, we just need to make bitcoin the native payment system of HTTP.  This is why projects such as npub.pro are so amazing.  Similarly with single-sign on, nostr identity can be used in many existing systems.  Nostr is a toy for R&D but can spread to the whole web, which has a chance of working. 

 "toy"


https://m.primal.net/JPbY.jpg
 

 I think it is helpful to think of how centralized and decentralized processes life-cycles work.

A centralized process has a goal/demand defined by centralized planning (stakeholders). This goal helps the builders coordinate effort towards a limited array of use cases. Then, solutions for those use cases are engineered into existence. And repeat. It is very straight forward, and agile (haha), but that demand might be overestimated, as central planner might be wrong, incompetent or dishonest.

Decentralized processes have a more "organic" development life-cycle. Builders build with their own use case in mind. Once a use case becomes popular (ie., there is demand), community adoption will help steer development of these solutions. This is slower, and there is no clear finish line, as demand evolves with time. Some solutions might be abandoned along the way. Surviving solutions will be the ones that actually provide the most value, as there is continuous demand.

there is a natural chaos in the way decentralized processes work, and time frames differ from centralized ones.

The fact that this https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips is the current reference for how nostr is supposed to work is a coincidence. There is no guarantee that this will still be true in 5 years.

People can only build ideas they see value in. Only time will tell who is right or wrong what works and what doesn't. 

I would advise people to be wary of making or blieveling in "this is how things should be" arguments when it comes to the development of decentralized projects, as such arguments are filled with bias and projection. in an organic decentralized process, you can only look back and say what has worked best so far. there is no telling how things should be. any predictions are only that, and have no bearing on reality. 

 Then let's get fresh value statements into the mix, new users who will tell us what they like and would spend money on.
Because money somebody's money is always spent, right now by 'free relay' operators and devs who ask donations. Foundations are good, grants help over the early days but people vote with their feet, thumbs and their wallet. No better communication tool but money itself. For that we need solid basics, not zap forwarding and.  

 By all means, give it a try. Just adjust your expectations as you progress. It might be that it takes longer that you might have imagined or predicted. It might be that the solution you are interested in is not in high demand, and that people will flock behind a different idea.. even if that idea comes to fail at some point in the future.

and on that note: https://x.com/geyserfund/status/1811434402041282680 

 Yes and no? Email was over 30 years ago. Things move a lot faster now, or probably should. 

 Although, bitcoin started out a bit more fleshed out than nostr did.

#Bitcoin is around 15 years old. I can only imagine #Nostr after 15 years. 🤯 

 Can’t use the same measuring stick. Development is much simpler and more streamlined than it was back in the day. 

 Yes and that should be noted 

 SSH, many ignore they are actually using it. 
Though is fine to have a #nostr boner 

 I’ve earned more on #nostr than the summation of a lifetime of using all other social platforms 
They can’t even begin to compare 

 true, it takes time. have patience 

 Facebook did much better 

 More than quality today this will take more time as we have many dynamic parts involved  

 So true... we are in the "find and enter in your" POP / IMAP / SMTP or and your socket phase of Nostr..... 

 It’s a total genius protocol. #bitcoin 

 This is terrible logic. Any crappy project can use this logic to just suck people dry for years on end. It doesn't mean Nostr can't improve, but the fact that some projects take time should not all convince anyone that something moving slowly can actually get into orbit just because a rocket starts also moves slowly at one point in the launch. 

 New users don’t care about progress made. They care about utility in the present. 

 *Some* users will wait at the finish line, but others will join the race. 

 http made more progress, but then, nostr is powered by http, so it still is! 

 Will be ndn later  

 I know it’s not a priority but I’ll trust Nostr a whole lot more once I have a better understanding of the economic model(s) that will sustain it for the long run. 

 X Internet bank protocol 

 X INT’L bank 

 i’m the founder 

 Well, Nostr sucks so bad I left twitter permanently and use Nostr exclusively………….

These handicaps you are pointing out are immaterial, will dissipate with time as future iterations are released……..

My background is a simple pleb with rudimentary knowledge of computer science………. 

 Any thoughts on Microsoft's attempt on #copilot Go To Market?
Not a protocol, but the most aggressively marketed product of Microsoft at present. 

 #Embracestr 

 btw, you can block on Primal
.. mute and block are essentially the same thing.

https://m.primal.net/JMYr.png
 

 I know, I tried and many times but it doesn't work. I keep muting and reporting the same spam accounts over and over again. 
Works flawless on amethyst but neither can I download my lists there, nor can I upload them to Primal 🤷‍♂️ 

 I do wish Primal supported NIP-51 Lists nostr:nprofile1qqsdv8emcke7k3qqaldwv956tstu40ejg663gdsaayuuujs6pknw7jspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqpzfmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2uc86mqq0 I believe you said this was on the roadmap. Am I correct? 

 seems this particular spam account or bots too powerful and we have to leave it to client or developers  

 I know, I did, I switched but that simple mode is supposed to be the default, even hiding much much more, with the full mode being accessible only by five times clicking the version number. I can't delete my 300 drafts, I can't switch draft creation off entirely, I don't know whether other users see my (animated and normal) emojis/likes, I can't save any of my lists, or backup my profile... These are the basic functions, not zap splitting and zap forwarding and polling by sats.  

 Fair 

 There isn't one nostr app that fully functions. That's a feature not a bug.  

 I’m sure that’s what the devs think which is why they would rather work on other aesthetics instead of focusing on the necessary functions. 

 I have no push notifications, but hey, we now have a cool feature for long conversations. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

 THIS 

 Yup. The fediverse was well intentioned but it also suffers from the same censorship as the bigger platforms. 

 I got to know Nostr with Amethyst since January 2023 and only a few months ago I started to explore other clients. I saw clients growing in complexity enormously while some basic social media app functions are still beta. That's what I'm pointing out.  

 you can mute users on primal iOS. haven't checked android. 

 I use Primal on web and Android and can confirm that you can mute on both. mute effectively blocks, idk what OP is talking about 

 I'm talking about my experience with Primal. Mutes are not muting, I still see the same in my notifications. Maybe this is by design?
How is it working for you? Do you see likes by muted accounts in your Primal notifications? For example this dollarparity bot?

My lists are my Nostr experience. My follows are mutes are curated for 18 months now and all I want is for the client that I'm using to show me my friends and hide the crap. This is a very basic function, even if I have to manually down- & upload I would do it but it's not available. 
Derek says that's nip51, so it's coming, maybe? To some clients? 

On boarding anyone but nerds like us at this point is pointless. And without greater adoption there will be no organic monetization to relay operators and devs.
I wish to get over this dreaded 'early days' narrative and seize the opportunities this day and age offer to us. With a shared vision and ground up. This ain't the 1970s or 2008, we got better methods of collaboration and monetization these days. 

 setting up relays is key for first UX 

 What was your experience like? 

 I'm Android too. I use Amethyst usually and noStrudel.ninja I use noStrudel almost exclusively on desktop. Try em all! 

 I can mute them but they keep showing up in my notifs. 

 Not for social media and social media apps though. I am aware that a social media PROTOCOL is in its infancy. 
I'm talking about UX -of Android Nostr clients specifically but the topic seems to have struck a larger nerve. 

Billions have been invested, two decades of research and experiences amassed, trillions of human interactions analysed to create the perfect apps. This wheel is round and won't get any rounder. There is nothing wrong about standing on the shoulders of giants and take all what is good today with social media to enhance the social protocol of tomorrow.  

 💀 

 Googles fault 

 Nobody is mislead, everyone reading this today knows the struggle:

I have to download Firefox, and an extension for it, create an nsec (somewhere) and copy it into the extension, open the nostr clients website, add my relays and keep signing in each time Firefox hibernates or clears cookies/caches? I won't get notifications either. 

See, I talked about the "on boarding on Android" experience and you have proven my point. Amethyst or Primal are the two best choices now, I speak about their UX. Webclients on phones are silly.  

 "Then there are web clients that require browser extensions for the login, which of course don't work on your smartphone".

Sounds pretty misleading to me, given what you just said. 

See I get your point, I just don't want somebody reading your note to think that browser extensions don't work on phone since IMO they are the superior method for login compared to pasting your nsec in an app.  

 First time I hear from it. It's nicely hidden: 

https://video.nostr.build/541be0492a6361b58a5a2a5ccbc02e532458f351ce5ae3662850be98179783b9.mp4

 

 🙂 

 Ah...I suppose it's archived now:
https://github.com/dluvian/Nozzle

Even nostros, (my first nostr client that I still use) isn't archived. 

 This is what my search is looking like. Not working, this nostr:nprofile1qqs84dumcr6238086npaggmp38vcdj0pn576xrw3azv7g3qajwz6mxgpzdmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2ue0qythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnswf5k6ctv9ehx2ap0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9u5nn5yt guy sometimes shows up in my search and sometimes not. Same for @olli >> wasn't tagged just now. 
https://video.nostr.build/5a268df343be31259973ade903967632933a85e6038cf23e249b135ad31d1733.mp4
Further: I have to set up a specific search relay now? And this banner now shows up on every feature, requesting a different sort of relay? 
I have written about the bad on boarding experience to Nostr on Android, this is what I mean. Amethyst is not for on boarding. While Primal is a Bitcoin wallet with social media functions. And for web clients one needs Firefox with extensions that ask for credentials in random intervals (battery saved, cookies cleaned, auto log out...) and send no notifications. 

 NOW I find the uncle much quicker, the profile shows up after typing UNC now. Because it's cached?  

 Ah ok, you ment searching for one. Yeah that is buggy. I thought you ment the problem were amethyst crashed while you tagged one with @... 

 Let's see, I tag you now a lot nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju @npub1jhgmf58wdd4mwe4t95ffea079kjxc7f62ncg9gdjmwcrmy0x6x8sfd8u8 nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju nostr:nprofile1qqsft5d56rhxk6ahv64j6y5u7hlzmfrv0ya9fuyz5xedhvpaj8ndrrcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uvfvdju looks good?!