Oddbean

Actions speak louder than words. In that context I would personally fear Trump more. His actions clearly show a disdain, disapproval and dismissal of opinions other then his own. So what am I missing here?

I don't know anything about politics in the Netherlands, so this is a genuine question: are prominent right wingers suggesting that the government be used to suppress fake news? Censorship is not disagreeing with facts or dismissing corporate media sources. It's using the tremendous power of the state to dictate what people can see.

They are actually crying that they're being censored by the government/main stream media. It's been quite problematic that even the term "fact" has become so deflated of value that simple opinions are sold of as facts 🙃

Yes, and what you're describing is an opinion by others, which thank heavens you can still see. It can definitely be unsettling to have generally accepted facts suddenly be questioned, and I'm sure you've done enough research and listening to come to your own conclusion about their accusations. So - on one hand opinion (that you don't seem to like) And on the other hand censorship - the primary concern of many in this thread - which is the control of info by the govt, usually at the behest of interest groups I think you're equating the two.

In this zeitgeist I am leaning towards facts being reproducible, retelling of history is by definition never reproducible. So on both side, both opinions are all opinions to me. I see the status quo trying to hold on by spinning it one way and see opposing forces doing it the other way around. Don't have much trust in either, if I have to be honest. I feel censoring has some intentionality in it, which I doubt is completely present. Sure for a part, but again both sides censor, twist and deceit in their benefit. It is more that both sides don't believe the other and through that ignore "obvious facts". So to be clear every side censors the other side, and accuses the other of doing that. So yeah, what am I to do about it? Again, in my opinion, facts do not exist in history retelling. Its mostly subjective speculation anyway. So I also feel that I am much more open to suggestion from the nuanced, independent middle, but these are hard to find these days 😅. And no, both msm or "independent podcasters" qualify to me as a trustworthy source. However I still trust some state funded institutions here in the Netherlands. Cabinet itself, not so much, but I think that the justice system, bureau of statistics and some others are trustworthy. And here I feel alot of right wingers try to undermine these institutions just because they are "part of government". May be that's the case in the US, can judge that, but I feel that's a shame. Again my biggest problem with the current political neo-liberal, anti-social climate which has destabilized society. I feel a lot of the economical, societal, housing and other problems are a direct result of the past 20 years policy. So no I don't trust government, but I don't feel the "hard, conservative right" solves problems it just polarises my country even more. That saddens me now and that saddened me enormously during and after covid.

I'm not advocating for right or left, and like you I am saddened by the polarisation. Although I mistrust centralization, I have no doubt that there are many decent folks who work for government agencies. But I'd like to call your attention back to the question of censorship, which was the first thing you asked me about: the two entities you mention are not censoring each other. Misrepresenting, maybe. Not censoring. Only the state apparatus has the power to censor, and we have plenty of information now on how that happens - deliberately - both in the UK and US. I imagine it's similar in the Netherlands but I'm not sure. In any case, I'm not sure how a political party would censor the state.

Good to be on the same page there. I still think that any form of disregarding information is a form of censorship, but fine to only focus on state censorship. I think in the Netherlands this form of censorship is much less a problem. There are multiple parties in our government, not one with a majority on their own. And there are still enough non-governmental news outlets keeping government in check. What I do see is self-censorship in media and thus being less critical of government, I think our journalists could be more critical, but have no incentive to do so. On contrary even. I also see both uk and us as broken societies, based on information on the internet as well as documentaries about them. So am still feel glad I live in this country, with all its broken parts, but again I feel this country's governement is not (able to) censoring any if all media. Hope you and your fellow citizens find a way to repair your society.

But anyway, I also feel we try to convince each other in the conversation we are having. And that, to be honest is quite pointless (also saying this to myself). If I want to learn I need to understand. What was for you the main reason you ended up in this state of mind about the world?

Not trump, but what he stands for. It comes over on me as the most retarded thing ever. But hey, may be I am biased as a non-American 🤷‍♂️, I do not understand that culture sometimes I feel...

Most of the folks that I know would not have lived in fear for several years if they hadn't been under the impression that there was a scientific consensus on covid. We now know all the ways that various public figures helped create that impression of consensus. What do you think the main reason was?

I think the main reason is people tend to believe they're own story and dismiss everything opposing it as false. Especially the ones looking for public attention spew their opinions as facts instead of trying to respectfully find truth together with different views. There is too much polarisation. So much that it sometimes feels that not having a polarision or strong opinion is being regarded as the enemy. We need to let go of our egos, convictions, opinions and so called facts to find humanity in the others again.

The basis is in what they experienced in their past. That made the story they told themselves. Whatever one finds on tv, radio on internet that confirms that is true, the rest is false. I think the neo-liberal of a retreating government, privatised institutions and a growing inequality between the haves and dont haves is what formed the foundations of today's declining trust in that same government. So covid stands not in itself, but rather brings up underlaying currents which where already there.

I don't see anyone freaking out about covid and accepting the lockdowns and mandates without a lot of nudging and hectoring from media, whose messaging which we now know was largely shaped by government officials who have connections to industry. I think you and I have a lot of overlap - the main difference being that you see government and private entities as two different institutions. Sadly, at this point I see most government agencies as an extension of private interest. At least in the US, corporations write the policy legislation which creates both regulations and subsidies that are favorable to them. The resulting spending not only directly increases wealth disparities, it also leads to more inflation which exacerbates those same inequalities.

I agree that actions speak louder than words but you didn't mention actions, just your opinion about his attitude. Actions are precisely why so many folks are willing to vote for Trump -for all his faults - over Kamala. Harris is part of an administration that is eagerly participating in wars and - most alarmingly in the long term - outright censorship. Her words and actions align on govt control of speech. FWIW because of his position on some of the wars, his lack of actions when he was president, and mostly because of his ties to Palantir, I'm not voting for Trump either so I don't really have a horse in this race. I just find it frustrating to see folks criticize Trump supporters but then just use their vague impressions to back up that criticism.