Oddbean

They are actually crying that they're being censored by the government/main stream media. It's been quite problematic that even the term "fact" has become so deflated of value that simple opinions are sold of as facts 🙃

Yes, and what you're describing is an opinion by others, which thank heavens you can still see. It can definitely be unsettling to have generally accepted facts suddenly be questioned, and I'm sure you've done enough research and listening to come to your own conclusion about their accusations. So - on one hand opinion (that you don't seem to like) And on the other hand censorship - the primary concern of many in this thread - which is the control of info by the govt, usually at the behest of interest groups I think you're equating the two.

In this zeitgeist I am leaning towards facts being reproducible, retelling of history is by definition never reproducible. So on both side, both opinions are all opinions to me. I see the status quo trying to hold on by spinning it one way and see opposing forces doing it the other way around. Don't have much trust in either, if I have to be honest. I feel censoring has some intentionality in it, which I doubt is completely present. Sure for a part, but again both sides censor, twist and deceit in their benefit. It is more that both sides don't believe the other and through that ignore "obvious facts". So to be clear every side censors the other side, and accuses the other of doing that. So yeah, what am I to do about it? Again, in my opinion, facts do not exist in history retelling. Its mostly subjective speculation anyway. So I also feel that I am much more open to suggestion from the nuanced, independent middle, but these are hard to find these days 😅. And no, both msm or "independent podcasters" qualify to me as a trustworthy source. However I still trust some state funded institutions here in the Netherlands. Cabinet itself, not so much, but I think that the justice system, bureau of statistics and some others are trustworthy. And here I feel alot of right wingers try to undermine these institutions just because they are "part of government". May be that's the case in the US, can judge that, but I feel that's a shame. Again my biggest problem with the current political neo-liberal, anti-social climate which has destabilized society. I feel a lot of the economical, societal, housing and other problems are a direct result of the past 20 years policy. So no I don't trust government, but I don't feel the "hard, conservative right" solves problems it just polarises my country even more. That saddens me now and that saddened me enormously during and after covid.

I'm not advocating for right or left, and like you I am saddened by the polarisation. Although I mistrust centralization, I have no doubt that there are many decent folks who work for government agencies. But I'd like to call your attention back to the question of censorship, which was the first thing you asked me about: the two entities you mention are not censoring each other. Misrepresenting, maybe. Not censoring. Only the state apparatus has the power to censor, and we have plenty of information now on how that happens - deliberately - both in the UK and US. I imagine it's similar in the Netherlands but I'm not sure. In any case, I'm not sure how a political party would censor the state.

Good to be on the same page there. I still think that any form of disregarding information is a form of censorship, but fine to only focus on state censorship. I think in the Netherlands this form of censorship is much less a problem. There are multiple parties in our government, not one with a majority on their own. And there are still enough non-governmental news outlets keeping government in check. What I do see is self-censorship in media and thus being less critical of government, I think our journalists could be more critical, but have no incentive to do so. On contrary even. I also see both uk and us as broken societies, based on information on the internet as well as documentaries about them. So am still feel glad I live in this country, with all its broken parts, but again I feel this country's governement is not (able to) censoring any if all media. Hope you and your fellow citizens find a way to repair your society.

But anyway, I also feel we try to convince each other in the conversation we are having. And that, to be honest is quite pointless (also saying this to myself). If I want to learn I need to understand. What was for you the main reason you ended up in this state of mind about the world?