Oddbean new post about login | logout Cuz reliance on trust is what got us in this mess to begin with. What part of don't trust, verify has everyone forgotten?
Sir this isn't Bitcoin Either way you see trusting relays to give you the notes, it's identical to asking them for the count
I never mentioned bitcoin. I am as mply pointing out that relying on trust is problematic and leads to the emergence of "trusted third parties" which is counterparty risk tofunctionaltity. Agreed that client downloading 20mb for a count is inefficient and that's dumb way to count though. Why not micro relays on every "full" client? Data is pretty cheap most places and solves the trust issue for day to day operations. Jus's a thought.
What’s a “micro relay”? Isn’t that basically a trusted server?
Lol no. I mean the relay implementation can be skinny and stuffed in local client. But nm. I have argued this before enough to have been told by the creator of this protocol that centralization is a feature and relays are private property. So. It doesn't matter what I say. This is how it will be. We are just rebuilding the old world with new faces and phrases. Be well
I don't think it's necessarily a question of size. It's just that you can only trust your own relays. The Android relay I run on my localhost is more trustworthy than one run by someone else, on their machine, regardless of who they are, because I can see the entirety of it and verify everything.
I just setup Citrine on my phone and it's running really good. Do you know if there are other relay apps for Android, or is Citrine pretty much it for now?
I think that's the only one, so far.
no, because the notes are external content not generated by the relays, the relays cannot be trusted ever, the client needs to verify everything. you're advocating for clients to "just trust me bro" which is completely wrong. the practice of displaying a single integer count is the problem, and clients downloading tons of events just for that are the problem. anyway, there's a COUNT nip since a long time ago that I helped shape precisely to unburden relays from this bad practice.
And you’re trusting the relays to give you the right count…
I'm not because I don't use the feature. but if you're going to ask for everything just for a count, might as well trust the relay for that, because it's meaningless anyway and the relay doesn't have to send everything and you don't have to download everything just to discard it afterwards. but just because I don't use it doesn't mean that other don't as well, so if clients will do it because they can, they will, and in that scenario, it is best to have a better solution with tradeoffs both agree.