So here’s the issue with Negentropy, aside from the high complexity. It potentially speeds up syncing on relays (basically web servers), but there’s a catch: it could spread stuff without consent. Consent’s pretty key, especially with personal things—imagine someone’s kids’ photos popping up in places they never expected. Since relays are web servers, they’re still under consent rules. Free speech? Absolutely important. But, as nostr has come be be used (asa social network), so are privacy and control. Relays that advertise Negentropy might end up liable if users (like parents) see their content somewhere they didn’t agree to. Efficiency is good, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of consent. Our small relay network puts itself at risk of take downs, and we cant afford to lose too many more relays. Make it opt-in and let those relays take the risk.
A very fortunate thing is that #nostr and #pubkey use exactly the same private keys. With that private key you can recreate the whole of your nostr account. And with the SAME private key you can recreate the whole of your pubkey account. Users in one system get all the features of the other for free. Whether by design or luck, this works out well for the users of both systems.
> This is Nostr, right? A dynamic and freewheeling movement fueled by its participants.
Couldnt be further from the truth. Nostr is a dictatorship. DevX is poor, and most of the grass roots have left. One person can come and change the protocol against community consensus, and leave a huge mess. It never transitioned to a community lead, transparent project. The NIPs area is largely dysfunctional now. There is a big lesson there!
Good to make this crystal clear! I think the successful model is something like Canonical and Ubuntu. Things needed are transparency, working on the right problems, and permissionless dev, enough freedom to let 1000 flowers bloom.
This one of the most remarkable works of the century. And most people dismissed it for years. We are lucky to still have Martti here, who really is Satoshi's successor.
Happens alot. Did you know that daniele and fiatjaf snuck spyware into njump dot me (the link in the title), too?
Check it yourself.
When it comes to "open" source, dont trust, verify.
Wow! So it turns out your nostr privkey can be used to run a tor service. You just put the key in the directory and start tor. It generates the keys for you.
But there's more. Because your tor key is also a #pubky.
Now you can add this to your uncensorable pubky DNS record. This turns every npub into an uncensorable Tor domain.
I've barely figured out the implications of this. You can have your own website without paying for a domain and users are protected from observation. You can have your own personal protected storage. Any npub can become a mint and connect to the lightning network. You can run a relay. It's a whole new surface for innovation!
I dont believe so, I think it's all brand new. #pubky only launched a week ago.
I hope someone will write this up.
But if you have a specific question I may be able to answer it.
I am still learning. What I *think* is the case:
- yes all browsers can access the DNS records with a fetch
- i am still learning about how #pubky are going to do DNS servers
- Tor gives you a .onion address which you can share
- It can be access with the tor browser or command line
- I dont know about regular browsers accessing .onion sites, it probably needs some tool like a proxy
- I dont think chrome or firefox let you use .onion natively, Brave works
- on Brave browser hit alt+shift+N for new window, and type in the onion address, it works.
Good call. May need to do it in stages. But, if you like censorship-resistance this is the big one.
There is a friendly chat room for #pubky too on Telegram, if you use that:
https://t.me/pubkychat
Propaganda 103: Integration Propaganda
Integration propaganda isn’t about pushing for radical change; it’s about building a shared understanding of “how things are” to unify groups and projects. Unlike agitation propaganda, which stirs people to act, integration propaganda works quietly, weaving values and norms into everyday language, media, and culture. It’s key for aligning people with a vision, whether in large societies or small projects. But for it to be effective, it has to stay true and accurate—grounded in real experiences and honest values. When it drifts from reality, trust erodes, and cohesion falters.
From Jacques Ellul, Propaganda
Why use tor?
Anonymity: Hides your identity by routing traffic through multiple servers.
Censorship Resistance: Access blocked sites and services in restricted areas.
Anti-Surveillance: Prevents tracking by ISPs, advertisers, and others.
Public Network Security: Adds protection when using public Wi-Fi.
You might enjoy hailou ai video. 3 day free trial. But if you pay $9.99 they give you 5x gens non-stop. I got about $150 of video gens. That was Uptober for me!
Cool, as I say 3 day free trial on hailou, and runwayml will give you a few credits, kling also. Hailou my favourite tho, if you click my time line ive posted a fair few of my creations ...
Cmon max. This is not right at all. Nostr clients are losing $1m a month, w/ revanue less than 1% of that. And no visible growth.
The relay network is unfunded and shrinking, all relay operators are losing money, and on the brink of throwing in the towel.
How does this make any sense. "we're early" or comparing nostr to bitcoin are not serious arguments.
I'm all for a rational bull case. But cant we do a bit better?
So, just as a quick reminder—Nostr has actually had quite a lot of funding. Even with around $1M each month, it hasn’t really seen sustained growth, so we have to consider what might happen without that level of support. If the funding were to dry up, it’s quite likely we’d see a real drop-off in users.
It feels like the relay network could have used more attention and funding early on. With that neglected, we’re seeing operators start to move on. And right now, there’s not much of a sustainable business model to rely on—practically no revenue streams. This makes it hard to envision a future without ongoing appeals for funding, especially to Jack, whose generosity has been key.
I think part of the challenge is that scaling just hasn’t been factored in. Simplicity can be great, but it doesn’t inherently scale. Now there’s talk of adding complexity through negentropy, which may end up fragmenting the network rather than improving things. It’s also easy to assume things scale by default, but most systems don’t—scaling takes deliberate work and careful planning. Nostr has struggled in this regard, and the NIPs have grown more centralized, which has also limited the flexibility needed for use cases and architecture. Only #ditto has really made an effort there.
The social graph portability in Nostr is actually very promising. It’s an elegant solution—using hashes to identify users is a technique we know well and can apply in many contexts. Other projects like #pubky are experimenting with similar approaches, and it’s encouraging to see the potential there.
However, Nostr’s main challenge remains quite fundamental. For it to become financially viable, it would need to grow by a factor of 100, yet it’s currently at its limit in terms of capacity. And since investment in relays has been limited, the network is unfortunately in decline.
That said, I can see Nostr’s relevance to the Bitcoin ecosystem, and supporting it can make sense from that perspective, even if it’s a philanthropic investment. But acknowledging the current challenges is essential if we’re ever going to fix them. Right now, the developer experience could be much better, and the relay network needs more focus. Some clients are hindering others, and the project’s leadership has room for improvement, especially compared to other open-source initiatives. And there are substantial opportunities we’re missing, particularly around taproot and financial markets, again due to centralization and group-think.
In short, Nostr offers a rich space for innovation that’s still largely untapped. Proof of concepts are valuable, but they don’t necessarily scale. Generous donations have provided stability, yet a more targeted strategy could make a significant difference. At this point, though, it’s still a cost center with a limited runway, reliant on the goodwill of its supporters. #ditto, on the other hand, has potential because it’s built on a different architecture. And by focusing on Taproot-based solutions and market-driven models, we’d allow the free market to decide what works—letting successful ideas flourish while phasing out those that don’t.
Yep, you’ve got it! The idea is that a traditional web service—something profitable and investable—can get a boost by adding a Nostr relay, like an extra feature.
That’s why Ditto scales: Alex did this approach with Truth Social by layering in Nostr. It works because it’s the web with some Nostr sprinkled in, and that’s totally fine.
Now, Nostr on its own, as we see it today, doesn’t really scale, nor is it bringing in a large user base. The scaling challenge is mostly about the relays.
Think of it like this: Nostr is like a car radio, and the web is the car. A car radio makes the car experience better, but right now, people are treating the radio as if it’s the main event—sitting in the car, enjoying the tunes, but not even thinking of turning on the engine or driving anywhere. It’s as if they want the radio to be the focus, not just a part of a larger, more useful system.
So, there’s no ‘moat’ in Nostr itself (the radio), but when you think about the car industry or even financing around it, there’s definitely investable opportunity there. The key is that we’re finding new, creative ways to enhance the web, and that’s a great thing for investment.
Also, keep in mind that the relay network gets pretty much nothing in return. They're often overlooked, mistreated, and even pushed aside. But without them, Nostr wouldn’t exist. It's understandable that many are walking away, and I can't blame them. Funding is definitely a positive step, but it needs to be distributed fairly to those who actually keep Nostr running. Otherwise, we risk Nostr drifting toward centralization, and any claims of censorship resistance start sounding more like a catchy slogan than a reality.
Back to the original point. Bluesky started later than nostr but got to 13 million users. Hence the funding. They invested in infrastructure to do that. They are 100x bigger than nostr, and therefore, sustainable. Nostr is not sustainable, and has to rely on hand outs, for as long as they are given, and none of it is passed down to infrastructure. Can you see why they are two different things?
#nostr = Unverifiable Censorship Resistance
#pubky = Verifiable Censorshp Resitance
Both are useful in different ways w/ trade-offs. But together they are much more powerful than one alone. It's a paradigm shift. It's a struggle. But, we will get there!
Needs some testing but it looks like #pubky might enable every npub to become a tor address, when fully integrated. Not sure what a use case would be, but might be fun to play around.
It seems likely that nostr will split into two networks. The simple vanilla nostr protocol that we use today and have used for the last 4 years.
And a new very complex network with a new untested protocol called negentropy.
Both will live together. And hopefully interoperate. There will be a lot of politics here especially from the big centralized players, and also from the small grass roots running simple nostr relays.
It's all good really. The only important thing is whether jack & co. will keep the lights on. Hopefully there will be a runway to try both systems for a while to come.
Entirely up to you. Most important thing is whether it will get funded, and for how long. The longer the nostr runway, the better. Given that damus is the elite client and the elite relay, it might make sense to wait a bit and let others do it first. You are smart enough to think for yourself and figure out the trade-offs, tho I suspect you will face some pressure.
I didnt say it was *impossible* to implement. I said it was overly complex. Nostr to-date has thrived on simplicity. That was the case before you were there, devs would come and try it out. The reason they would stick around was because of the simplicity. There is still going to be tons of relays running on the original nostr protocol, in any case. scsibug relay runs quite a lot still.
Deinitely a case of #FAFO 😂
Do try it, but you have run it for ages on different use cases to see what bugs it spits out. And what it does to your network.
"Somewhat useful" is about right. But then they extrapolate to be a "new internet" etc. Same people. The thing I found with this, and so many solutions like it, is that really strange things happen to your network after a while. It could be a few days, it could be a week, it could be a month. First time I thought it was my router broken. But just strange things happen like DNS stops working, or everything in the house goes slow. There's so many of these little "paper cuts". Im skeptical they will all be fixed one day. After all LANs are set up to stop this. Which is why websockets are great, they get through every fire wall. That's the reason nostr works.
Hmmm difficult. Npubs have a very complex checksum that is never used and very difficult for solid to compute. It also is the wrong check sum (segwit, instead of taproot, doh!). Npub would serve zero purpose here as we already have a nostr predicate. Likely hex public key which is the canonical hex pubkey as better. Npub is a mess of technical debt but is likely to stick around.
in this case it already has the "nostr" part logically separated
the evolution of the web was from the hyperlink, to typed links
solid does typed links which is the most advanced form of the web, npub was a hack because nostr doesnt have typed links (yet)
I personally dont think it will add anything other than a lot of complexity. But glad people are trying stuff. I think we should split nostr into 2 groups. One trying with very complex negentropy to solve very complex use complex use cases. And the group that wants to use vanilla nostr the simple protocol to solve simple use cases (as we have now).
How do we fix it. You cant have a fair market on a rigged base layer. But you can have the first digital free market on a fair base layer, namely bitcoin. Unfortunately scammers from other coins have given what is possible on bitcoin a bad name. How can we do free markets over bitcoin, such as on Liquid?
Two parts to this:
1. Call out the scammers building rigged things on a rigged system. Concur!
2. But this is also bitcoin's birth right, that they have taken away, and tainted. Bitcoin's next great step should have been to facilitate free markets. We are somewhat paralyzed by the fatigue.
Does (2) make sense to you?
What could possibly go wrong? Back, and to left.
Back, and to the left.
Back, and to the left ...
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzq8n8mcm4g9csw8fulx6ykmj5d0v5l59zeglmfkamrvz5dpwfz9hyqy2hwumn8ghj7erfw36x7tnsw43z7un9d3shjqpq4s5v97wyps3jyzfcxzhhhesyp28xdh3m2994yr8e3ty85cp0fjas306v94
Imagine you could paste your npub into an app or browser, and it gives back a censorship-resistant domain, under your control, you choose where it lives. That's the idea behind #pubky. Every user, which is a pubkey, has complete control over their own domain, and no one can censor it.
You realize you can just you can just ask ICANN to adopt this, or something close. Some bits will have to be cleaned up, though, first. I happen to meet them because they do their plenary in my home town every 2 years. They've been wanting to redesign DNS for ages. And in fact last time I met them they were talking about namecoin and how there was a way to spread it. And they were asking if they should put .arpa on the end of all their domains but not show that in the browser, which would let everyone have their own resolution. I said that was a bad idea! ICANN people are actually pretty cypherpunk if you get to know them, they consider DNS to be an old system and they would update it if there was a good solution.
Yes indeed. Nostr is still better than the status quo, because 3-4 relays is better than one central server. But you cant compare 3-4 relays with 3-4 million nodes. I have always considered nostr resilient like RAID, but the censorship-resistance is over hyped. If you want censorship resistance we now have a bullet proof way with millions of nodes, and decades long track record. Solution is to let nostr be nostr, and use the right tool for the right job.
Add home servers to the mix, and fast caching from pubky relays. It's a very good system. I'm just now looking that pubky keys can also be tor v3 addreses, did you know?
Use base32 encoding, add a 2 byte checksum and version number=3. Now host tor from your own machine over your npub (if it works). VERY exciting.
Yes, if you separate the data from the transport (a bit like nostr events) you see the completely decentralized nature. So you are not reliant of DHT but you benefit from the property of DHTs, namely, verifiable censorship resistance.
Depends how long you want to last. On boarding developers is much easier when something is new. But then it gets much harder.
The economics of nostr are that of generosity. Jack & co. very kindly donate about 50k-100k sats per daily user to keep development going. The relay operators donate their time and resources to keep the network going.
That goodwill tends to run out after a while (normally 6-18 months). UX is key of course, but nostr has lots of really good UX. Most of the devs that have left are not coming back. And you end up with a finite runway.
Hot take on the #pubky protocol. Bits I like, bits I dont like, bits that involve trade-offs. Overall better than I expected. A pubky is basically an npub without a prefix and checksum. The enromously complicated npub checksum afaik is never used and its the "wrong" checksum (segwit vs taproot). Something nostr might be able to learn from. This is one reason why I'm glad there are different innovations in the space. Also nostr and pubky can be easily integrated. Would offer a lot new use cases. And I also like John, who has been often a voice of reason in the community. At this point, I wish them luck.
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