Oddbean new post about | logout

Notes by c42c347a | export

 That is what I have heard forever as well. But on deeper inspection, the issue is with all the Pa... 
 The Palestinians could prosper if they accepted any of the multiple offers for their own State. They would have endless support from the International community to ensure their prosperity.  

They've rejected every single offer.  They completely reject the idea of a Jewish State in present day Israel.  They deny 3,000 years of Jewish heritage and history in the Holy Land.  They deny that Jews have always been there.  

Until they accept that Israel is not going anywhere, they'll continue their misery. 
 I know the history is complicated. States don't own land in my perception, people do. As far as I... 
 If you view the people of Israel as occupiers, you're saying they have no right to exist in Israel today.  You set aside 3,000 years of historical facts and Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.  That would put you on the side of genocide of Jews.  

That puts us back to my original point, if Palestinians would simply let Israel exist, there would be peace.  Israel warns civilians before they bomb a target, Hamas uses their own people as shields.  There is no moral equivalency between the two. 
 Land.
Terrorism. 
 Are you aware that the Jewish people have lived on that same land for over 3,000 years?  Are you aware that throughout that period there have only been 3 sovereign states on that land, all being Jewish states?  Are you aware that the Bible, which goes back 3,000 years, mentions Jerusalem over 700 times? Is there anywhere within present day Israel borders that you believe belongs to Israel?

Glad we can agree on the second point being defined as Terrorism.  Unfortunately, the leaders of Hamas view all the innocent people murdered as occupiers, and thus invaders and legitimate targets. 
 so if I say yes it was evil then Israel is on the good side and has the right to do whatever, and... 
 How many Synagogues are there in Egypt?  How are the Coptic Christians doing in Egypt?  Did you know 20% of the people living in Israel (not Gaza or West Bank) are Arab?  Let's not fool ourselves on how tolerant the Muslim world is towards non-muslims.  

You can readily search for the atrocities that were committed that day, if you really desire to seek the truth.  

If you cannot recognize murder of babies in their cribs as Evil, there's literally no common ground from which to work from.  Human beings need to first acknowledge the others as Human before anything else can be discussed... 
 oh the good vs evil naive narrative  
 Would you describe the events of October 7th as Evil? 
 Yeah, let me first steal everything you got and lock you up, and when you resist, I propose peace... 
 Steal what exactly?  Another question for you...how would you describe what happened on October 7th? 
 I am getting close to giving a more detailed assessment on Israel/Hamas, as it drags on.

And it ... 
 As part of your reflections on the topic I would encourage you to honestly answer the likely outcome of two questions:

1, What would happen if tomorrow Israel laid down their weapons and said they would fight no more?
2. What would happen if tomorrow Palestinians laid down their weapons and said they would fight no more?

In the first case, Israel would be annihilated.  In the second case, there would be peace.

One side wants to live in peace and simply exist.  The other side does not recognize the others right to exist.  

It's not about land or borders.  Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.  If it was about borders, Palestine would be a separate state today, but they've rejected every single concession over the last few decades.  Those in power don't want a state that also recognizes Israel's right to exist.  As demonstrated all over the world, Palestinians, their sympathizers, and the Muslim world in general, hate Jews and want them destroyed.

Any honest reflection on your part should present those facts plainly.