Oddbean

I’m pro democracy because everything else is terrible. Many democratic states have fallen to dictatorships. Never seen one fall to anarcho-capitalism. Freedom is something you fight for. If you listen to my interview with Dave Smith I align with his Libertarian views in that it is best to fight for freedom within the structure of the state. I hate government now but I know there are things worse and evil. I honestly find the whole “statist cuck” thing boring and childish which is why it doesn’t appear in many conversations as serious.

I listened to the episode with Dave. I know your views have shifted over the last few years, but like you say it seem like government is an emerging property of civilizations. What most people can get behind is moving towards having the governance be local so the values of people align and people leading can be held accountable by their neighbors basically.

Anarchy-capitalism is an ideology nobody is near. Even Milei as an anarchy-capitalist is having to increase freedom for Argentinians from within the framework of the state. It’s fine to be idealistic but some people have to get out there and do the work. This is why I appreciate people like Dave Smith and Rand Paul, they understand and play the game but don’t change their convictions. Most of these little angry people who shout statist this, statist that live in the most free places in the world.

I've been part of some interesting bottom-up anarcho-capitalist experiences. And it works, on the fringes, but it works. The problem is that the vast majority of the population isn't ready yet. We'll get there eventually. But such a profound transformation of our civilization demands a lot of time. Centuries perhaps. Getting all worked up about it doesn't make sense. Because it's a marathon, not a sprint. Shaping a civilization takes centuries. Even commies understand this better than some libertarians!

You are assuming that the means and the ends are not the same. But they are the same, they HAVE to be, both for directional improvement and for the ultimate goal of libertarianism. Every iterative improvement towards liberty comes from recognition of the fact that there is no legitimate authority and that one is morally obligated to minimize the initiation of aggression. Once one understands that, every rational thing one does will bring about changes in the right direction, whether big or small. Years of experience and thinking about this has shown me that. You are dismissing this stuff on whim and "truthy" feelings. Fallacy. Blind support of democracy without a thoroughly considered and inspected reason for it obfuscates the true nature of the problem and the solution for yourself and those who listen to you, and though you think you are doing this out of pragmatism, you don't actually have a logical reason to believe that it is more beneficial to society to support democracy.