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Colby | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 The NIP-65 note is an addition to the Nostr protocol. Relays have to propagate it constantly, or else it’s useless. That’s radically different than original Nostr.
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fiatjaf | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +3 
 You don't need NIP-65 to implement the outbox model.
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Colby | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +2 
 What’s your definition of the outbox model?

Relay hints? Those are horrible.

Clearly we all aren’t in agreement about which definitions mean what.
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Colby | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +3 
 Is outbox more so the philosophy of:

“reading from the relays others write to”

If so, that makes sense. There are different ways to achieve that beyond NIP-65.
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fiatjaf | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +3 
 Yes, that's it.
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fiatjaf | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 Relay hints can be useful for helping clients create a local database of where to find whom (aside from immediately loading notes you know nothing about), specially when you don't have any other clue about that, but NIP-65, NIP-05, nprofile hints, random guessing and historic event fetching stats, asking some smart indexing services and whatever else could also contribute.
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Colby | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag 
 “The [Relay] hints system will never be sufficient, because it encodes changing data into immutable events. The gossip system can be much better (though not perfect), because pubkeys are far more permanent.” ~ @hodlbod 

If you change all your relays after being censored (the main value proposition of Nostr) then all your Relay hints break.💔

Relay hints are horrible.🙂‍↕️
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fiatjaf | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 As I said, they're not flawless, but they can definitely help. Coming up with an example in which they break doesn't imply they're horrible and should not be used.

You have just cited a wrong claim from the hodlbod without addressing any of my points. In case you want to do that, here are some more points for you to address: nostr:naddr1qqyrscm9xajxvve5qyghwumn8ghj7enfv96x5ctx9e3k7mgzyqalp33lewf5vdq847t6te0wvnags0gs0mu72kz8938tn24wlfze6qcyqqq823c6zx8e4
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Colby | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag 
 Nah, that specific quote isn’t wrong. 🦖

You do outbox your way, I’ll do outbox my way. Let’s test who has more missing notes after.✌️
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Colby | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 The example I gave is literally the main value proposition of nostr… relay hints sacrifice free agency. Foolish to latch onto Dino tech.
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Nuh 🔻 | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag +1 
 do you want to have this mind-numbing argument with everyone, or do you want URLs to work? use pkarr.org

nostr:note1z5t5x6wlkxuj99gl8ulpjlnnlwks6es69586xqzware7p74hf7qs09muqw
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hodlbod | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag 
 Interesting approach, I had not considered using relay hints indirectly to infer where someone might be if you can't find their 10002.
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dluvian | 4 months ago (raw) | root | parent | reply | flag 
 We don't need nip65, but it makes it easier. Clients can make reasonably good guesses where to look for notes with other metrics.