Oddbean

TPS isn’t what is needed. The bond market doesn’t control the price of debt because it has high TPS. It does so because it is the most liquid and largest market for referencing the long term price of using capital. #Bitcoin has every capacity it needs to be a vastly better tool for that market. If you think it’s about TPS you are failing to understand the structure of capital markets and prices.

I just want everyone in the world to be able to buy milk at the grocery store without fiat or getting in line for a lightning channel and waiting years. On and non-custodial. Why do we keep shilling this shitcoin? Is it because we're early to the CBDC?

“I just want everyone in the world to be able to buy milk at the grocery store without fiat — non-custodial” Of course that’s the goal from a payment standpoint, but that’s a pipe dream if you don’t fix the pricing of capital and the deepest monetary market in the world. Wishing for that without fixing the massive monetary base is like wishing for great poetry without caring whether the language works at all. If you think you are the only one who cares about that you’ve made a grave error. You misunderstand the path dependent means of getting there, and so you toss out the most important tool for achieving your goal before even getting started. The simple truth: nobody has invented noncustodial P2P cash that scales for the whole world as a retail payment network yet. It simply doesn’t exist yet, but it can ONLY be (and will be) built on top of a permissionless, decentralized, global monetary base. https://fountain.fm/episode/cLNMTcWrFO3hlQXk8e1K

You literally aren't listening to the most basic thing. TPS on chain has nothing to do with how large Bitcoin can scale. You will endlessly be confused with Bitcoin's success if you stick your head in the sand this deep. Thanks anyway but if you can't grasp the simplest part of this argument because you are stubborn for no reason or so stuck in a silly view of how this works, then no progress is likely to come from this. Thanks anyway and hope you have a good day.

No, I get it. You want to build on top of Bitcoin. Any argument that ignores TPS has it's head in the sand sir. In the real world there is competition. Why would I pay the fees when there are better solutions out there? Your fiat gains have you blinded to the reality that most of us live in. We never got into bitcoin for fiat gains and a lot of the original devs have left or are acknowledging that they're being socially ostracized because they're sticking to their values. Death to fiat via global p2p economy. This requires high TPS on a chain that can't be gamed by industrial miners or social consensus via PoS. I'll admit, you're probably early to the CBDC. However, you can't tokenize shit on BTC because it can't handle the turing complete smart contracts BlackRock and Goldman need to make this narrative a reality. So your fiat gains will be replaced by ETH and you'll be blamed for selling us on the CBDC and the hate for tech bros will grow. 👏 Fuck it, yolo right? You're disgusting.

“Death to fiat via global p2p economy. This requires high TPS on a chain that can't be gamed by industrial miners or social consensus via PoS.” There is no way, zero, nadda, absolutely in no way shape or form is it possible to have global retail payments on chain AND have a secure decentralized independent network. ZERO. This is fundamental to how it works. You are demanding that we have a broadcast network for every transaction on earth. It’s flatly absurd from a technical point of view. It is an impossibility, you might as well scream at the clouds, you’ll probably have more luck honestly. If you cannot understand the most basic network and technical limitations and WHY it works, then you cannot possibly understand why decisions are made to retain decentralization and actually scale something in the realm of real life. I would tell you to maybe read Layered Money just to get a big picture, but judging by your responses and that you can’t even **acknowlegde** the difference and just keep parroting the same crap as if it’s some revelation you’ve had that NOBODY else could’ve thought of, “OMG we could just add more tps!!, then this is definitely going nowhere. Read the book if you even bothered to read that part of my response before constructing the same thing you’ve regurgitated 4 times already. I’ll still say I hope you have a nice day, but I’m muting you this time sense this isn’t even a real discussion anyway.

You have the patience of a saint. The 7 TPS is a red herring. Bitcoin scales through layers. Each layer is a trade-off. If it was not a trade-off it would be the base layer. The layered system is still vastly superior to the status quo. I do however think that after 99% of the coins have been fairly emitted, there is a case to increase capacity TPS in line with the hardware of the day, and balancing it with keeping the node network decentralized.

I think the case could be made at that point, but I think the issue will be moot by then anyway. It’ll be like IPv6, everyone will say it’s needed, but we’ll never need it, and there will still be new and better ways to accomplish the same thing, and then we’ll probably have another paradigm shift in cryptography or who knows what with layers on top (like Nostr and pear are likely to remake the web), and then we will be so excited and busy with that, that a hard fork for higher tps just won’t be worth all the trouble. Thats at least how I picture it in my mind. We usually suck at predicting the future and people come up with bonkers stuff that seemed impossible in a shockingly short amount of time.

Largely agree. I think colored coins are going to grow in utility and popularity, because they create free markets on bitcoin base layer. We see in the real world that free markets are major use case. It's something that could be as big as bitcoin itself, just if you look at the dematerialization of what exists in the financial world. So an expanded middle section of the mempool would facilitate this, increase security budget, decrease fees for L2 and onboarding, and keep the network sufficiently decentralized. I agree alot will change in the next, say 4 years, simply because AI will mature and affect so many things. AI will also incrase demand for block space. Important to remember that one of the main reasons for decentralized node network is to ensure that the coins were emitted as a level playing field. After that is 99% accomplished, so much more is possible.

It's totally possible. Sharding + Merged Mining + a consensus mechanism thats a huge improvement on nakamoto consensus which (let's be honest) is a proof of concept. https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.04305

TPS unnecessary. Bitcoin will reprice the market all by itself. Eventually when Bitcoin is fully mature it's appreciation in purchasing power will be the risk free rate. Anyone looking to borrow money will have to return more bitcoin than they borrowed. It's going to take longer than most people think, or would like, but if bitcoin remains free and open then it is inevitable.