Oddbean

On Nostr, it is objectively true that there is no global. On Bitcoin, it is objectively true that there is a global. Overreacting to a problem will not help solve it. Someone who speaks dev please talk some sense into this guy. nostr:note15rnejl5kmpgj4jjpnzq8hrvajzmd9kdf7cdrrpw46zd2tlt7jxmqhsqqd6

Your view of nostr will always only be the events coming from the relays you connect to. Even if you use some of the aggregating services like Primal or Nostr.band, or incorporate outbox model, you still only see some cross section of all the events in existence “on Nostr.” It may be a large cross section, but it will never be the absolute entire set of events signed by a key on Nostr. On Bitcoin, every node has a full view of the entire chain of transactions, and it’s that way out of necessity because it’s money. Nostr fits a different use case and neither needs or has a singular global state.

it's quite bizarre how people don't get it that social media doesn't need a consensus, it just needs a strong guarantee of delivery to interested parties all the kids in scalable ecom dev get it... amazon uses it for their sites, ebay uses it, there is dynamo and there is kafka... nostr is built on the same architecture... and i'm not even pointing out that almost all social media silos use this type of publish/subscribe architecture, that's how you can message your friends in america and europe and asia from one front end in australia or new zealand, the system passes relevant messages between data centers

I’ve seen a few of his posts and replies about this spam situation and he is greatly overreacting in his choice of words. This one he wrote is objectively wrong. Nostr has no global consensus or state. Bitcoin does. Theoretically you could say that there is a single set of all nostr events IF you had them all accessible in one place, but that doesn’t exist, and in practice it simply can’t exist. So it’s a false for sake of any rational discussion. But he is choosing to be irrational right now.

Agree 💯 But a counterargument: Alex gives >0.001 shit about ReplyGuy spam whilst @jb55 who I’ve donated to for 2 years doesn’t give one iota of a shit and neither does @Vitor Pamplona on the alternative OS should I decide to switch platforms. So overall that puts Alex and his false premise, even put up against a literal Lightning Dev on one hand and on the other a guy who created a fucking vaccine passport but other than that retarded lapse of judgment seems to care about freespeech and has done more for #nostr than anyone else developing his client, ahead of both. It’s not like Will and Vitor don’t know the problem - they just don’t seem to care. Alex is moving the needle. Will and Vitor are accepting a needle covered in shit because it doesn’t affect their own use of the protocol. So I’m sorry, but I’m with Alex by default until others pull their fingers out their bungholes and start helping their Users. No-one is accusing Alex of not trying to help Users at least and as a client-dev, what other job do they have? Asking for Sats and then abandoning Users is fukt.

I’m glad he cares. No argument there. He’s just overreacting in the way he’s talking about it and that doesn’t help anything. As for other clients, Nostur has been my consistent go to for most things and have always found Fabian approachable and helpful. FWIW

It’s a small thing but Nostur is the one changing Monero to 💩 right? Shouldn’t be so much to ask to have one client not fuck with the feed negatively and not have them ignore problems on the other hand.

You don’t seem to care about any solution which “you think” you have already thought through regardless of whether you have or haven’t. Maybe you have thought through my suggestion but you’ve dismissed it just because it doesn’t meet your bar. My suggestion is real tooling for real users. You don’t like it because it’s not perfect. So I get a button which you did a shitty job of communicating through official channels (a separate bugbear) and still get to deal with the dregs of it. You don’t want Damus users filtering on NIP05. Only your solution “could” work even though it clearly hasn’t. My suggestion was dismissed because in theory ReplyGuy could add his own NIP05s and instead of considering how Damus users could share blocklists you just negged it. I’m not going to be so kind as @Low Information Voter. That bar is way too low IMO

That's a terrible take, and quite untrue. Vitor solved Repl y Guy spam in the client after he realised the main relays weren't moving quickly enough. IDK about Alex and Will since I don't use their software, but I see no reason to believe they didn't care. What does concern me, and that Repl y Guy has made obvious, is that the public relay operators are both a fragile point of centralisation, and too rigidly ideological to solve any unwanted content problem without the threat of arrest to back it up. Why the client devs are drawing heat IDK, they have no more control over relays they don't operate than we do.

It’s kind of insane considering only me and alex have actually built relay spam filtering software (noteguard), both me and vitor have WoT solutions in our apps to reduce spam. I think people are underestimating how difficult some of this stuff is to stop, especially when they were spamming tons of different relays that we have little control over. I am doing my best on my own relay with the rate limiter that i wrote but some still slip through. This is on top of my managing two client releases and a custom nostr database. But yes, i don’t seem to care 🙄

“Relay spam filtering” That’s the problem Will. I don’t want to use YOUR relay spam filtering. You fucked up communicating your Web of Trust already so I don’t want to rely on you anymore. I want you as my client dev to give me the tools to filter on npubs in my preferred client: Damus. I’ll decide my own relays thank you very much. You’re conflating things thinking you can solve things from both sides when you can’t even solve YOUR side, that of the client, satisfactorily. Perhaps you need to pick a side rather than trying to do both shittily.

The client devs are running the biggest relays mate. It’s pretty obvious that messes with their incentives to run the best clients when they can fiddle on both sides of the argument and they don’t give us anything clientside because in their view, relay side solutions are better. They need to focus on one side. Client side they should be giving us tools to filter out bad NIP05s. Pretty easy for ReplyGuy with his masses of accounts with no NIP05. They’re not doing that. Giving users that option is too difficult.