"Science, if well done, is metaphysically agnostic." — Bernardo Kastrup Agree or disagree? #asknostr
Oooo oooo i got one! 🙋🙋 https://i.nostr.build/O4alO.jpg - Norman Robert Campbell, The Philosophy and Theory of Experiment
The conceit of many scientists is to assume that metaphysics doesn't matter, because the scientific method is a superior means of pursuing truth. That in itself, however, is a strong philosophical—and possibly metaphysical—claim about the nature of reality and knowledge.
Metaphysics is how you tune the lens settings for our reality filters. Change the underlying assumptions, while the external reality may not change - you are living and responding to a different reality than before. Can't really get past that. if you're lens is foggy, you're not going to get a clear representation of anything you are seeing. Problem is, the lense is multidimensional and there is no single correct orientation, but there are clearly wrong ones. You'll see an image, but the experienced photographer can infer the settings of the filter.
I'd argue that there *is* a single metaphysical ground truth out there, but we certainly don't have all of it at present. Until we do, we are working with approximations that hopefully grow ever closer to reflecting metaphysical reality.
Though we exist in Plato's cave, ideally we would use own constructions of magnamity or related ideas as a compass for our actions. That construction is multifaceted, but we still are limited by the lenses we wear - however golden we think they are. For practicality, I tend to mix the higher perspective of *The True Ungraspable Truth* with the more local perspective of "lack of global truth", but I do recognize the nuance.
It would seem you share the perspective of most moderns, then, that metaphysical ground truth is effectively unknowable. Plato—of cave fame—would, I think, hold that we can arrive at metaphysical ground truth, even if to do so is a difficult and lifelong task.
Definitely in the perspective of metaphysics in science. Beyond that, i'm open to the idea that some states that allow us to experience truth, even if for a moment.
I'd contend that at least some of the fundamental metaphysical truths of the world are knowable. We are limited in that our senses deal with material reality, so to know unchanging things we have to reason—to extrapolate, to some degree—from what we can perceive. However, the ancient and medieval philosophical traditions agreed that such rational discovery of truth was possible, albeit limited. To know unchanging truths more fully, we would have to have those truths revealed to us. One of the reasons I persist in practicing Christianity is because it supplies that revelatory truth in a way that is consistent with reason. Christian theology (some parts of it, anyway) feels like an extension of philosophy to revealed truths. This consistency lends credence to the proposition that there is a God who reveals himself to us in a personal way.
The idea of formal systems and Godel's incompleteness theorems comes to mind. A formal system is defined by axioms. We try to treat science (and by proxy, the natural world) with an assumption of nature itself being a formal system -> start with axioms and explore the space from there. Axioms and derived theorems then create the boundaries for the environment you're working with. Mathematical proofs show you absolute truth in the axiomatic system you are working with. They will also show the absolute falshoods of the system. The space is fractal, endlessly deep, you only can work with the knowledge you have of system you are working with. The problem is that nature is mind-bogglingly entangled. You think CS dependencies are tough? Biological processes seemingly have not only unenumerable dependencies, but dependencies that well eventually circle back to the process itself. At that point, you'd expect a computer to be in deadlock, but it gets worse. There there are not only multiple different clock-cycles, but its a gradient everywhere you go. In biology, it is often said that there are always contradictions to rules being stated and that whatever "rules" we come up with are more guidelines, so we can't even make the assumption that biology and nature is a formal system. What are the implications of that? A real strangely looped rabbit hole for you 🕳️🔄🐇 From Godel Escher Bach ch 3, a visualization of this process with some defined formal system. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem proved that any formal system will have statements about it that cannot be proved from within said system. For example, where in the system of language rules do you get meaning from? You're not going to derive semantics from syntax. https://i.nostr.build/AaXlL.jpg So if formal systems can't even be fully explicated , what does that imply for non-formal systems? Damned if nature is formal, damned even more if its not. Now for a sleight shift. Humans, we live outside many axiomatic systems, but use them to frame our understanding of the world. Ever work on a problem for such a long time, and then stop and do something else? Thats because we aren't bound by said box/axiomatic system and can move outside it. This feature itself allows us to reenter the system from different angles, or just say "Stop, its not worth it." The capacity for humans to exit systems is a core part that separates us from computers. Wisdom incorperates restraint of application as a consequence from viewing the system wholistically. The real questions now: What kind of boxes are we living in, be they foundational or self constructed? Are we agents taxing towards new provable theorems contained in some system we can't exit from? What are the generating functions for this system? Are we the system itself? This gives me hope on the unknowable truths and falshoods. Spiritual experience is the experience of The Other, whatever that may be. Not formally religious, but there is strong appreciation and a wistfulness toward it.
This reminds me of the distinction between complicated and complex systems. A complicated system can be predictably modeled, even if it requires a large model or many steps to do so. A complex system, on the other hand, is inherently unpredictable and surprising. Mathematics and other axiomatic systems are very complicated, but still fundamentally predictable. Arguably physics is complicated rather than complex (though with the observer effect in quantum mechanics, I'm not totally sure about that). The weird thing is that, even though, say, biology is "just" physics applied to living organisms, it is incredibly complex, unpredictable, and surprising. Your point about humans being able to shift between systems is particularly salient. If reality is fundamentally ordered and knowable, we would expect a coherence between various axiomatic systems insofar as they reflect reality, even though no one system has the whole picture. So we have to remain humble and recognize the extent of our ability to know on our own. All that said, if we develop and test various axiomatic systems to show they have some bearing on reality, then we ought to be able to triangulate some knowledge about the fundamental reality that those systems describe. Catholicism recognizes this as "natural revelation," by which, with the aid of reason, we can observe the created world to come to know some things about the Creator, who is ultimately outside of any systems we can devise. The medieval theologians had this idea of "divine simplicity," which says that God is identical with all of His attributes. So we might say "God is omnipotent," but in reality, God is not a being who possesses omnipotence, he *is* omnipotence. And also omnipresence, omniscience, goodness, love, and so on. Thus God, who is the fundament of reality, is fundamentally simple; He is one thing. Everything we can say about God is just another way of triangulating on that ultimately simple Being. Which brings me to a question, based on the end of your post: If you are appreciative of and wistful towards religion, what is keeping you from making the plunge and pursuing it further?
I'm confident in my compass. This is distinct from being confident in my beliefs. Chemotaxis, or how cells move up a chemical gradient for nutrition, or phototaxis moving towards or away from the light gradient. They don't "know" what is the maximal position to be in, but they move in the direction that is strongest to help them survive. I argue that this is not entirely mechanistic, that there is a sort of 'taxis of meaning' where agents move towards the highest signal that is meaningful towards them. That eternal 'search' to something is what I see in Complexity, coupled with being entangled with the environment. I see all humans doing that in some sense, but what is it? Something arch-typical in mythology and religion is the concept of 'the greatest good'. Every religion has it, I personally don't see myself aligning myself with one completely at every time. Like this taxis, I use my compass to help me find that which is most meaningful to me, trying to absorb the traits of 'the greatest good' that I find in the world. This can change moment to moment and I'm okay with that. I love the lecture series on religion by Jordan Peterson, Eric Weinstein's passion and references to his Jewish heritage even though he is not religious, Alan Watt's lectures on the Abrahamic Religions, Hinduism and Buddhism. All these are individuals that embody that trait which I want to also take on. But the spiritual practices that I align most with would likely be Taoism, Buddhism, and particularly the perspectives given by John Vervake and Jordan Hall regarding "The Religion that isn't a Religion".
Science without an uderlying ground for the cause-effect relationship? Without a justification for the assumption of the continuity of nature (i.e., repeatability)? (ha!) Science can never be agnostic--it can only proceed by borrowing the capital of Christian theism. Disagree.
Causation and motion are the domain of physics (in the Aristotelian sense, certainly, as well as in the more modern sense) rather than metaphysics. The scientific method is deeply dependent on our epistemology, to be certain, but metaphysics? I'd argue that is a different domain of knowledge.
Physics cannot proceed without metphysical assumptions. There is no ground to assume the continuity of causation or motion such that we can make reliable predictions without taking for granted that things will be tomorrow as they have been through today. Even probability requires this assumption, which requires a certain metaphysic.
"There is no ground to assume the continuity of causation or motion...without taking for granted that things will be tomorrow as they have been today." I'd contend that is an epistemological assertion, not a metaphysical one. Our ability to do physics and metaphysics alike depends on our epistemology. The Aristotelian distinction worth keeping in mind is physics is the study of that which is real and changes, while metaphysics is the study of that which is real and is unchanging. With that distinction, it seems clear to me that, while our metaphysics can color our understanding of physics, our ability to study changing things does not wholly depend on whether we have a correct metaphysics.
Our epistemology, also, cannot but presuppose a certain metaphysic. To channel Van Til, "the unbeliever can count, but he cannot account for counting." This applies to all scientific endeavor.
...and, our ability to do physics relies on an objectively real world and objectively real natural systems and processes--whose persistence itself relies on its Creator and his promise to keep it going that way (at least for a while longer).
Agreed. The distinction I'd make from here is that those foundational epistemological axioms don't necessarily require an *explicit* metaphysics, even if they require an implicit one. The physicist takes as axiomatic, explicitly or implicitly, that reality is consistent, that it is knowable (at least in part), and that physical matter is a relevant object of study. Those axioms are, it would seem, sufficient for the scientific method. Under those axioms, metaphysical truths remain in a numinous realm beyond our ability to study. One might admit those metaphysical presuppositions are necessary for doing physical science while not admitting them as relevant objects of study. Thus, like any logical system, science needs axioms to get going, but that is an implicit metaphysics; science may remain agnostic about other metaphysical pursuits.
Exactly! If we assume that we are just a chemical accident, why should we trust our senses or our logic or assume that we can know anything. If we assume that we are created in the image of God and that God designed everything that is, then it is an obvious conclusion to trust our senses and logic and that the universe works according to certain reliable, trustworthy, continual rules and can be known.
The ladder of truth seeking goes up from trust to democracy to consensus to science Metaphysics is, well...it's outside of the ladder
How do we know that democracy and consensus are reliable indicators of truth? If they are truth indicators, does consensus work as a guide to metaphysical truths?
There's only one spectrum of truth seeking, ending in science. Whether truth seeking itself is involved with the real/"meta"-truth or not (whether the ladder is actually involved with the ascension) is another question.
That doesn't quite answer the question, though. If anything you've raised more. What does it mean that there's a spectrum of truth-seeking? Why is science the ultimate truth-seeking mechanism? How do we know?
For your first question, consensus introduces a truth discerning process onto the indiscriminate votes of the population (democracy). Indiscriminate votes are better than blind trust in a single source, but the scientific process totally precludes indiscriminate votes from the pursuit of truth. There's a logically consistent process to arrive at a logical truth; you perform it. Whether the pursuit is, in truth, important... is the big question. Many believe that faith is enough, even to behave on provably unprovable things.
To say that pursuit of truth is worthwhile is itself an article of faith. But if we assert that it is, we can collectively discuss how that truth seeking ought to occur. I think there's a difference between science and democracy. Democracy makes no reference to anything other than the collected votes of a population. Science isn't driven by consensus, it's driven by a certain pragmatism that accepts the material world as an arbiter. Your hypothesis either holds up it doesn't, regardless of which way the consensus goes. It seems you were already getting at that point, but I think that would tell us that science and democracy are not on the same spectrum of truth-seeking.
The spectrum is based on trust. Science is trust in the scientific method plus your ability to carry it out alone. Consensus is trust in some method of discerning truth from a collection of votes. Democracy is accepting truth from a collection of votes alone. Trust is believing a truth from a single vote alone The pursuit of truth must live on that spectrum somewhere. But it's moot, if the "meta-truth" is something outside that spectrum, in which case, the pursuit is pointless 😏
I would argue that true, open minded science will always lead a person to the understanding that there is a creator God. Unfortunately, most of what is called science starts with the premise that "there is no God," or at least that "nothing can happen supernaturally." If you start with these premises, you are ruling out the truth and therefore "science" won't lead you to the creator God. If you accept that there can be a "first cause" or "creator God", the evidence will lead you to Him. The Bible and/or direct revelation is required to truly know God, but science can lead a person to understand that there is a God and start them on the path to seeking who that God is.
For science to lead one to God requires a genuine metaphysical agnosticism that is open to the revelation found in nature without presupposing any conclusion. You are right that most scientists do not have this openness. To be generous, it would seem most scientists do not admit metaphysical realities as an object of study. If one assumes that which is eternal to be unknowable or inaccessible to the scientific method, then science will only serve to flesh out the boundaries of a sort of Kantian metaphysical agnosticism.
Some interesting discussions in the comments. nostr:note1qxxfa0njq4ezw39c8qdn72af2h459mzdwl6e6xn6udxegxjselnqsr9kcg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtnlmuNRJAg 90 seconds of 🔥