Yes I even have my own implementation using redis with a nice score but look: This is exactly as easy to been taken over by CIA as Twitter was. There’s 0 innovation happening here. Exactly what “they” did last season with Ethereum to distract the plebs. 

 Nostr: creates the first social protocol where every single write interaction (a like, a repost, a calendar RSVP) requires a cryptographic signature to remove the power servers have over users. 

Some dude: there is ZERO innovation happening here. 😆 

 SSB? FMS? Sone?

FMS and Sone don't even *have* servers, and I'm admittedly not very familiar with SSB's implementation details. 

 They are not really equivalent. In the same way that Nostr and DIDs are not equivalent. Having a server is the innovation. P2P is just a layer 2 for Nostr.  

 I guess I'm not convinced privileging servers *is* an innovation. On Freenet, SSB(?), IPFS and others, it was always possible to stand up gateway servers. Having P2P primary and servers secondary seems like a superior model, despite some insistence otherwise. It seems that most nostriches have never even used the prior systems.

At the end of the day though, I've always said the tech barely matters (past a certain point), the network of people is what matters. That's (primarily) why I gave up on Freenet. 

 As long as the server cannot change anything you do or did, and you get to choose which server to use, including putting up your own, it's a better model. Dumb server, smart client. You can always opt for P2P nostr if you want and if your friends are online at the moment.  

 How is that better than no server, smart P2P client? Running a nostr relay requires having a publicly accessible server, and it doesn't provide access to the totality of nostr, just what has been posted to it.

The primary objections to P2P I've seen has been speed and reliability. In my experience with Freenet, speed is the real objection, reliability is imperfect, but relays will not retain every note forever either. 

 To rephrase that, with nostr you *NEED* a publicly accessible server to be a full participant in the network. With P2P you can choose to run a server, even privately, to lighten the load on your end clients. 

 In P2P if you ARE the server. Its the same thing. You can choose to put a server up OR keep your phone connected at all times (virtually impossible these days). Otherwise, if you are offline, people would never find your posts. 

Think about relays as proxies to your device's database. They help others get your stuff when you are not online. Relays are not a database. They are a simple temporary storage of your notes.  

 > In P2P if you ARE the server. Its the same thing.

Only in a very reductive sense. The accessibility requirements alone for nostr relays vs a P2P node are huge difference, and your phone does *not* need to remain online constantly to participate in Freenet (the only one of the bunch I'm willing to speak authoritatively about). The network stores the data, not just relays it.

I agree freenet is probably too heavy to run on a phone but you can run a gateway, problem solved, and you have far more flexibility for how you run such a gateway, it can be totally private to you, very different from running a relay. 

 I don't mean to be combative about this (I hope it doesn't come off this way) ultimately like I said, the user base matters far more than the tech. I do wish nostriches were more familiar with what came before, though. 

 relays technically are only forwarding traffic, but the whole thing would not work without caching, so they are blending it with databases, and because of that, they are also starting to move into the realm of distributed databases.

it's pretty much mandatory for nostr to blend relaying and caching together so there must also be a concomitant development of appropriate consensus algorithms that fit the use case. some people think that means blockchains but it's not needed to have strong consistency. eventual consistency, and only driven by user activity, is what seems to me like the right fit for nostr. this is solveable with merkle DAGs, tied to users.

on a side note, there is a lot of confusion of domains in the discussion of architecture in nostr. it is a simple fact that the way a relay will structure its caching depends on the users. trying to make the strategy about a subject is blurring the boundary between serving users and serving an application model, and is going to lead to rigid and difficult to modify systems. 

 
https://image.nostr.build/fcf926227b416e4710240cd2e062ef310ea69af26e3c31973589af147ec069dc.jpg 

 The thing is: #nostr isn’t much p2p oriented right now. Most of work til now consists in doing JavaScripts frontend. That’s cool but #bitcoin cyber hornets 🐝 don’t stop until it’s totally decentralized. From the ground to the top. If you start doing something centralized it’s the same as #ethereum keep doing round after round. 

 I don't understand why you keep repeating that nostr is centralized. You can choose your relay (or put your own relay) and there are 100s of clients to choose from. We don't even need a blockchain to centralize a consensus. We don't even rely on a single node implementation like Bitcoin core is. 

Relays are just temporary storage for events. In the end, each Nostr client is as decentralized as it gets.  

 Yes but we should bootstrap users inside a mesh of udp p2p servers(“providers”). Right now it’s only will and a dozen running very targetable servers. Aka. Ethereum/AWS/… #bitcoin should be in the core of #nostr from its foundation(L1) not on paper bitcoin (lightning). As an exemple bitcoin can bootstrap to a network of p2p from its foundation. That’s a ground to build from. Every single guy who tried something centralized have failed in this area. Or will fail in the near future. Bitcoiners require 100% decentralization or it’s not real plebs. 

 Many clients already do that. There are only few that are still in the old model with a list of bootstrapping relays. I think you are stuck in the past. 

Bitcoin nodes already do too much to be bothered by Nostr events. They shouldnt be used for this. There is no need to destroy the money layer with social media posts. 

But feel free to code your P2P nostr network. I am building mine as well. Its a good layer 2 for the relay network.  

 I've also been thinking about this. Relays should be in a p2p DHT and index and retrieve hashes of notes and pubkeys for each other. 

 👆👆👆 this guy knows 

 So let's build it. 

 Yes but where are the incentives ? 

 The end of walled gardens owned by big-tech. Freedom and a chance for a better future for humanity. 

 #bitcoiners will have to fix it anyway. Twitter is doomed by @elonmuk and his friends. Cyber hornets were coming from Reddit to Twitter and right now nostr is the only usable solution. But has its flaws. 

 I'm not saying its aliens, but I also don't think relays in other places, care wat EU does. Twitter only cares because they operate in the EU.  Global Internet ftw.  You do have global access right? 😎 

 tl;dr

Fuck the EU 

 Il n'y a que l'EU,  certes elle a adopté tant de lois contraignantes qui viennent de FR, de lUK et recopiées partout  même aux USA..en 2026 malgré le retard sur la monnaie numérique je pense qu'ils pencheront sur la décentralisation..Quid des USA vous ne pensez qu'ils oeuvrent sur le numérique plutôt Bitcoin qu'autre..tout est possible qu'ils mettent la main dessus juste en votant une Loi type patriot act vu son niveau d'endettement exponentiel !? 

 Well it’s not only EU today every government agency has learned it’s way to CEO house in order to sensor at some level. #bitcoin has survived from the highest level from the same problem. Relays can be easily used to censor as most operators will not hold responsability over 3rd party notes. 

 Vrai 

 The revolution will fail if we expect it to win and stop fighting. Are you a #bitcoiner?   Then let's fix it, because nobody else will. 

 Yeah many will. Cyber hornets don’t sleep. Just give them time to learn. 

 We already have those. Nostr.band is one of them.  

 And we can build in incentives ... LN and zaps make this possible. 

 Zaps was cool but easily censored. Lightning has many flaws that could be addressed by a mesh webrtc2.0-like p2p network to provide tx information doing a merge between bitcoin and nostr networks and releasing us from all this all-in-one C++ bundle that bitcoin-core has become. 

 Curious to hear more about this idea. Let's take this discussion offline. 

 I think we can call any server maintainer in less than 30 minutes and order they act accordingly EU Rule number X and it’s gone! https://image.nostr.build/c91cc484345e4552e23dd4bf076871c6f687797ed9e9273e206fd04e927229e1.jpg  

 Go for it. You are not the first one to attack the network with this bullshit. :)  

 I don’t think decentralization and sovereign are bullshit. Own your notes, own your audience. Don’t delegate to 3rd party as they will be points of failure for censorship. Being p2p you can control your audience one by one. Per request. 

 That's not what I said. The bullshit was for your idea threatening Nostr with of EU compliance. Feel free to have your own notes on your own relay, anywhere you want. 

 P2P is the only way for #bitcoin or any product you call “from the plebs”. Everything else is just a Venture Capitalist playing with some charismatic dude looking to jump from his back. 

 Qui  mênre le jeu dans  cette nouvelle ère technologique des plateformes sur des protocoles décentralisées.  Le P2P n'est pas nouveau  dans d'autres continents moins équipés le mode P2P existent depuis des années sans user de banques ainsi que les disparités sociales avec juste quelque exception. 
Rappelons vous qu'à même sur nostr les clients la plupart entrepreneurs,, et les utilisateurs n'ont pas les objectifs, ni projets sans oublier les mêmes compétences techniques.  
C'est créé idem chez MZ ,X , tout se monetisera le P2P m'est avis n'est qu'un jeu de pouvoir  tel que le système Fiat avec ses influenceurrs, ses pubs...rien n'est gratuit dans ce Monde ..J'en mêle les créateurs du Bitcoin 
J'espère avoir tort  

 Je n''associerais ceux qui sont à l'origine du Bitcoin .. à ce protocole...Presque que tous les clients sont dans les affaires avec leurs objectifs et résultats à terre et est-ce qu'ils partagent les mêmes valeurs ?  

 Do you know any calendar apps on nostr alteready? 

 Digital signatures were invented much before of #nostr and got really popular with #bitcoin. But come on websockets can easily be shut down. So what we are doing here is just Twitter 2.0 (the next take over). In my view, decentralization is a grounding for #bitcoin roots, if you avoid decentralization you cannot associate with #bitcoin community. You guys are only creating the bank and government 2.0. Its cute but far from hard tech. 

 
https://image.nostr.build/fcf926227b416e4710240cd2e062ef310ea69af26e3c31973589af147ec069dc.jpg 

 Sure, everything is just 1s and 0s and assembly. Nothing is new since the 60s... 🙄 

 WUT!? 

 Comparing Bitcoin to Shithereum immediately kills any argument you try to make afterward. 

 Dude this is worse. There isn't even a consensus mechanism. They must think TCP has been coopted too and that websites are centralized. I mean, a lot of people use the same central data centers, but that's completely optional. You can host a website from your house if you're brave enough lol 

 Mais internet et les fournisseurs d'accès qui dépendent tous d'autorités des marchés de chaque pays où ils se retrouvent ? Il y a quand un gros problème seul la Chine a dû créer ses propres câbles avec sa nouvelle route de soie , l'Iran se débrouille tout seul l'Europe demeure dépendant de l'US ..il y a un truc que je ne comprends pas. De plus aux US tout est presque  dans l'état de Washington depuis Obama, Ishare de Blackrook,AWs , Bill Gate etc.. 

 🎯  https://media.tenor.com/jDJkh3w0wTAAAAAC/gregzaj1-ln_strike.gif 

 It’s paper chat right now lol 

 Your fallacious accusations of it being Vc puppet nonsense is the only thing i see paper chat worthy 

 Bruh if we keep building #nostr the way it’s today(websockets+relay) soon we’ll recreate Twitter by having to centralize indexers and note caches. That’s a heavy centralized point and very easy target to VCs and Govs. 

 Did we just find @fiatjaf’s alter-ego? 

 If #nostr keep being centralized there’s work for cache and indexing to be done by middle-man’s aka VCs. In a p2p model you have to request the notes directly from your peers. Without any relay. That’s how #bitcoin work. Bitcoin don’t ask permission to post a 1000 tx but if I try to put 1000 notes per second the nostr relay operator will flag my notes and probably block. That’s censure from the beginning. 

 Bitcoin’s consensus rules limit what you can do to your peers. You can’t do 1000 txs per second on-chain lol. You have a poor understanding of decentralization and trust-minimization — permissionless doesn’t mean lawless. Anyone can run a relay, and if a relay bans you - you can move your content elsewhere. That’s beautiful. If you don’t get it, sorry. 

 Furthermore, bitcoin SPV proofs do require asking a “relay/full-node” for information you don’t have — as verifiable merkle branches. Bitcoin is not entirely P2P. Nostr may benefit from P2P eventually, but mastering the user-server model first is wise. All good things in due time. 

 I do agree mastering the user-server first was a wise strategy but it’s getting out of control. The things here are resembling web2.0 products exactly the way they’re. I just don’t get how keep pushing web2 tech can lean towards decentralization. 

 You should check out the multimedia relay we’re building… we evolved Merkle DAGs (used by IPFS) to move away from http entirely. The branches are thinner than IPFS Merkle DAG branches are could be used to download parts of someone’s profile from tons of different relays, branch by branch. Give #nostr time to grow! 🌱https://www.hornetstorage.com/dag-trees 

 merkle trees, and merkle dags, etc, also have the same topology as packet switched networks, and the data size requirement increase for the number of pieces exactly corresponds with the message count required for a message broadcast over a network.

it's simply not possible to make it scale without changing the propagataion strategy, in both cases. 

 You’re thinking in a client-server mode when you talk about permission. In a p2p infrastructure I don’t have to push my notes to any place. The audience will have to ask for the notes from the peer they’re requesting from. Being my own host I can publish as my wishes. Having my own private nostr server doesn’t fit the same requirements because it’s like an isolated island without any communication between the servers. It’s not a network (yet?) 

 Is bitcoin not a network because people use SPV proofs to request data from full-nodes? Your semantic arguments bore me.
nostr:note16aa889627a5rxct0vc4peh2s2q7hqt4yfq0dq8w6skhklhlp9mpqw5j85l 

 I really didn’t get what’s your point talking about SPV. SPV’s request info from another peers in a p2p style. Same as I’m proposing here. Beside this SPV is a “don’t verify, trust” server. 

 SPV proofs are a user-server model… users only store the block headers. That isn’t P2P because users don’t store the blocks. Therefore, SPV proof requests are like requesting notes from relays.

You’ve got a lot to learn about the differences! :-) 

 Yes but what are the incentives of running a relay and being risky of hosting prohibited content ? Relays become centralized from the very beginning. Building over this foundation is useless as when it reach the Twitter size another GOV VC will take control. Same has happened to Reddit, Twitter, Facebook. This path has no future. 

 Reddit, Twitter and Facebook all were founded on VC money, they all took on that debt from day zero.

They all used that money to build a moat, a way to lock out others from interacting with their setup.

Nostr has no debt, and no moat.

It may succeed or fail, but there shouldn't be a way for it to be bought, because nobody owns it to sell it. 

 I don’t think so, and corrupt people going fucks got fucked.


Questions? 

 Just ignore ‘em… these vague analogies are the last resort of haters.

I think the future of #nostr is promising… Robin is writing the BitStream paper as we speak. As reliance on webservers fade and multimedia relay discovery/syncing improves, Nostr will evolve into a historically unprecedented network. Bitstream enabling users to pay for data bit by bit, like cell phone minutes, will enable many relays around the world to stay in-business.

The more relays there are, the more distributed the data will be — that’s what defines decentralization. The payment is trust-minimized because the relay can’t claim the payment unless the file chunk matches the chunk requested by the user. 

Both axises will be covered: trust-minimized monetization and the decentralization of data. 

 Imagine being able to be paid to seed a movie… it’s like monetized torrenting. All that left over bandwidth put to good use. 

 Thank you boss. Can you please explain how “they” removed you from the chair from Twitter ? And also who “they” are? 

 No. You are a special person @jack Did you buy big assed ugly taylor rooks for cheap sex with a black whore, yet again?  You and these negro whores. 

 You are a DEPRAVED FUCKER OF negroes 

 You know, if debasing yourself is your thing …it’s your life. You do you, and the big assed negro whores and whores. ✌🏽 

 Goodness. Why do I have to be so rude?!  Your life, your poor choices. You do you, bruh! 

 please describe your reasons for this attitude problem 

 Yep 

 Calling yo ass out Jack. You better bitch slap a nigga 

 The Kennedy24 campaign will soon start collecting signatures for ballot access. One of the hurdles is going to be fending off challenges to signatures. I’m imagining there’s a good way to use blockchain tech to verify signatures. If anyone here has any ideas - please contact me. 

 You too Jack ❣️💕 

 And so are you Jack ❣️💕 

 #bitcoin is the special thing and the new standard way of thinking seems to be #decentralization. 

 恍恍惚惚哈哈哈哈哈 

 special what？ 

 So are you Jack! Happy birthday! 

Make a wish  🌠 

 1st world tech leaders. 

Those rich guys who fight for the plebs freedom lol 

 thank you, i thought "venture capitalists" but wasn't sure.