Oddbean new post about login | logout Privacy is normal and good. There has been an effort among authorities to make “money laundering” and “financial privacy” the same thing. That is, the mere act of moving money privately itself becomes a crime. That’s not okay. Money laundering is when money that is obtained through crime is concealed by obfuscating it with clean money. The actual crime is the initial non-financial crime (say, mob stuff), and historically money laundering involves manual activity to work with the criminals. Now that open source tech can make certain transactions private, authorities increasingly equate all private money transfer with money laundering, even if the developer of the open source tech had no direct involvement with criminals. Authorities target them regardless, and sanction the technology itself. Financial privacy becomes synonymous with crime in their minds, and in the minds of the public.
This 👇 nostr:nevent1qqsdugaqvh8dg65dyq9jcl068am7lc2ecpx7c7ws8ld5g6749vrzd6qpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyr4tpe6k6v4cp0x5vneas39cqspsxp66z04tcdve5a3vntr6hy057qcyqqqqqqg5qs4vt
Curtains were invented for a reason.
Curtains are for extremists, according to the state
“Privacy is normal”; really?! Not for me.
How so
I live in a small town.
Yeah no privacy there. But we still need privacy from the state nostr:nevent1qqsr0mpqfswn39qjsumr0h8un2ht3eh9lv9zp8shwhn4n9s3tlrdxespr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyrwz5gl9fxpz2l633wclq5ynw3azfsx8smlms0sanmrcxd5h8v845qcyqqqqqqgv38sg8
It's a narrative to further control.
It's not that we (OG Bitcoiners as well) have not been warning about this situation for years. Maybe it's a good thing as it will refocus the community on what is really important: Freedom and not NGU/ETFKYC "adoption". We might as well see a little more love for Monero now from Bitcoiners who still remember former ideals. NGU tech is nice. But without privacy as a prerequisite for freedom what is it worth?
Governments gonna govern. Best stack KYC-free. On a positive note, speed of innovation, and low time preference is on our side.
Yes. nostr:nevent1qqsdugaqvh8dg65dyq9jcl068am7lc2ecpx7c7ws8ld5g6749vrzd6qppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzp64suatdx2uqhn2xfu7cgjuqgqcrqadp864uxkv6wckf43atj860qvzqqqqqqy390arn
Crazy this needs to be repeated to people, but here we are, and it is well worth repeating. PRIVACY IS NOT A CRIME
This had to happen and most BTC people were pretending that it's not a threat..well it is. Without a fight, without something huge happening the FIAT system won't allow privacy in #bitcoin space. They want to have the same control as they have in "their financial system".
Doublespeak is their favorite tool. nostr:note1mc36qeww634g6gqt937l50mhals4nszda3uaq07mg34a22cxym5qcealw0
The goal of mixing is to restore a level of privacy equivalent to what you would normally get with cash. In reality, it doesn't even get very close to that. Calling it "money laundering" is a joke. Try running the proceeds of your meth empire through a mixing service and then reporting the income td the IRS, and you will see the difference.
The DOJ release implies that whirlpool processed $1.9b of noncriminal activity (if we ignore the "privacy is money laundering" fallacy) 🤔 nostr:nevent1qqsdugaqvh8dg65dyq9jcl068am7lc2ecpx7c7ws8ld5g6749vrzd6qpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyr4tpe6k6v4cp0x5vneas39cqspsxp66z04tcdve5a3vntr6hy057qcyqqqqqqg5qs4vt
Frankly, they should be seizing the fed et al-- mixing in all that dishonest money printing and diluting purchasing power for the benefit of the few cantillionaires
That is why public discussion is so important, as well as important education of policymakers, public opinion of G7 countries about the abuses of AML/CFT laws and real money laundering. Real criminals, and even more so oligarchs, use completely different schemes to launder dirty money. For example, the daughter of dictator Nursultan #Nazarbayev, Dariga #Nazarbayeva - #UK law enforcement tried to prosecute her for money laundering. But Kazakhstani authorities used lobbyists, expensive Western law firms, and the Kazakhstani state apparatus to succeed in laundering her dirty money. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/08/uk-agency-loses-case-against-ex-kazakh-president-family-aliyev-nazarbayev This is a scheme for the real work of the oligarchs, people who have stolen billions from the budget of a country where their family members have been in power for decades, politically persecuting any dissent, torturing and killing. They do not need mixers, they have perfectly mastered money laundering schemes through investments in expensive real estate and consultations with former higher officials, top law firms. Besides, Western intelligence services are diligently training dictatorial regimes how to recognise both traditional bankin and crypto-assets transactions, so the oligarchs have this knowledge from the intelligence services under their control in non-democratic countries. They will not use such tools. Mixers and #bitcoin self-hosted wallets, on the other hand, are used by activists who are financially excluded by authoritarian regimes and do not have the privilege to use banking services in general due to political repression. Moreover, the knowledge of US intelligence agencies is used to financially exclude regime critics and their family members both domestically and transnationally. This is exactly what Turkey, Kazakhstan and other regimes do all the time, sharing knowledge gained from Western partners with Russia, Iran, China to repress dissenters abroad. In less than 5 minutes Kazakhstan blocks fundraising via bank account or #Stripe for families of political prisoners, so bitcoin p2p transactions and mixers are currently the only instrument to protect human rights in such authoritarian countries. Regimes can trace such transactions, but they can't stop them and so far it has helped save lives. Therefore, we will continue to defend mixers and self-hosted wallets, and draw the attention of the U.S. and other G7 countries to how in reality the banking systems of third countries like Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Turkey are used to circumvent Russian sanctions to the extent of hundreds of billions of U.S. dollars and remain unpunished due to abuse of power domestically and abuse AML/CFT laws transnationally.
It’s akin to shutting down Facebook or Twitter over the content of its users. Except in this case the users are simply seeking privacy. But in neither case should the developer site creator be held responsible. They’re just seeking total control.
HERE, HERE! I Agree with that loose description of what real "money laundering" is and by "whom" ,in your opininion, this is practiced. But I don't think it's so much that authorities everywhere or en mass are doing any sort of "DIE HARD" Lobbying or Demanding of Upper Government officials to make National Level, State by State Criminal Law Amendments, Mergers what have you, in regards to lumping EVERY PERSON'S Privacy, Financial or Otherwise & "Money Laundering" together much less making it a real & enforceable on the books " CRIME". I'm going to TOTALLY call this what it is, in my bopinion, this is some, um, geez I am dying to say Bullshit, but, l I think it's more someone's gonna suddenly misunderstood the information they've been given..
It's the enabling part Mixers cater to money launderers They are participating in the act And laundering money is a crime (It can also be automated not just manual) If I trade in your tokens for other tokens (or fiat for fiat) without asking how you obtained it, and it was obtained illegally, then I am actively engaging in a crime. You would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you had no knowledge... which is very hard. (I don't make the rules) The crime is absolutely financial, even mob stuff, otherwise there would be no need to hide the money. Hitman for hire - crime involving finances Robbery - crime involving finances Drug / people trafficking - crime involving finances The crimes are committed to gain wealth There's not really a distinction Furthermore, transactions aren't supposed to be private in the eyes of the government. One reason being taxes. People say that bitcoin offers privacy, if true, there would be no need for mixers. If the feds are going to assume that privacy is directly linked to crimes, there would be a lot more companies going down. Which remains to be seen. (I'm guessing that's what this was about) They probably will anyway to try to combat ransomware... it's all paid in bitcoin. I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to have privacy. It is what it is. nostr:nevent1qqsdugaqvh8dg65dyq9jcl068am7lc2ecpx7c7ws8ld5g6749vrzd6qpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzp64suatdx2uqhn2xfu7cgjuqgqcrqadp864uxkv6wckf43atj860qvzqqqqqqycqc9kj
"Money laundering" and "financial privacy" are NOT the same thing. #cybersecgirl #privacy #law nostr:nevent1qqsdugaqvh8dg65dyq9jcl068am7lc2ecpx7c7ws8ld5g6749vrzd6qpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyr4tpe6k6v4cp0x5vneas39cqspsxp66z04tcdve5a3vntr6hy057qcyqqqqqqgjccm7e
Wait until it’s a matter of national security. These bitcoin startups are going to crushed like a paper plane.
Hadn’t thought about it this way.
If privacy ever becomes illegal, I will be asking for free access to detailed financial audits of govnerments. As they are so willing to follow our money, let's follow theirs and talk about what real money laundering is afterwards.
This needs to happen sooner that later I think.
It’s like weapons manufactures being arrested for murder when someone shoots someone else using their gun
You should check out Ghost by Mcaffe. John Mcafee literally built his own Privacy Smart Contract network because he was on the run and Monero didn't have smart contract capabilities.
And yet when a business or a rich person hides money in an offshore bank and grey corporate structures, it's "just fine", but when we use coinjoin, then suddenly we are on a most wanted list.
Transparency would be good to know what governments are doing with the tax money, though
yes we need this now! Excellent point.
I won't get tired of saying... #bitcoin needs to be updated (softfork or hardfork, i dont know) to allow the mixing of coins as another feature of the code, and not as until now, which are "plugins". #samurai PS: As long as all these privacy solutions are plugins, their developers will be persecuted and their services closed. The miners are kidnapped, they will oppose this change with all their resistance.I won't get tired of saying... #bitcoin needs to be updated (softfork or hardfork, i dont know) to allow the mixing of coins as another feature of the code, and not as until now, which are "plugins". #samurai PS: As long as all these privacy solutions are plugins, their developers will be persecuted and their services closed. The miners are kidnapped, they will oppose this change with all their resistance.
Adding that kind of complexity to the base code is 1001 headaches waiting to happen... I doubt any serious devs would undertake such an upgrade. Not to mention, how many node runners would download that frankencore version? Not all bitcoin node runners are privacy advocates; some just want to earn more dollars. The proper way to decentralize this is joinmarket's approach. Joinmarket is a P2P network, with no central point of failure that I have seen. It's based on the Coinjoin protocol, which is, like bitcoin, truly open source & distributed. Both Samourai and Wasabi have implemented the coinjoin protocol in their products too, so some were very surprised to see that the fedcoats would come after a company that just implemented open source code... But honestly I'm not surprised that they did. They don't care about what you use, only that they can find someone to stick in a cage. Neanderthals. Joinmarket doesn't (appear to, so far) have anyone to stick in a cage. Just 61 volunteer contributors on github. https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver
@LynAlden Can't tell you how many times normal working folks have tried to send money to each other and it gets flagged for money laundering with no proof even though its maintenance or gifts. Mostly an issue when sending money to or out of South Africa. The local banks and SARS are to blame.
Of course, I've introduced Bitcoin as an alternative and it's a great option for those who listen. Some exchanges take 1-3 days to transfer funds from traditional banks to thr exchanges so timing is still a problem if ppl don't already own btc.
Current law seems to regulate the violation of financial privacy only in particular circumstances, usually with court approval. Could you please give me an example of targeting tech people so I can get a better picture?
While accurate and wonderfully articulated as always...there is no need to define this. In modern society, law is clearly irrelevant for anyone without wealth or political influence. It's odd to me that people believe you might actually have to knowingly or accidentally break the law to be arrested/indicted/prosecuted etc. We like to pretend we don't live in a 2 tiered justice system when it could not be more overt. Selective prosecution, no actual crimes required.
I've only read the superceding but I will be interested to know (assuming they are not found to be "money transmitters") whether willful blindness to those using the system (from which they receive a fee) will satisfy the intent requirement for conspiracy.
perhaps come election time you vote for anyone who is not in office. have a complete reshuffle. it may cause us issues bit it also going to slow them down too. just a thought.
This gist here: "Financial privacy becomes synonymous with crime in their minds, and in the minds of the public." Uh...100% So... how do we go by fixing that? (Honest question).
**ใช้ Gemini แปลให้ครับ** * **Privacy is normal and good.** > **ความเป็นส่วนตัวเป็นเรื่องปกติและเป็นสิ่งที่ดี** ข้อความนี้สื่อว่า การมีพื้นที่ส่วนตัวทางการเงินเป็นเรื่องปกติ ใครๆก็อยากมี * **There has been an effort among authorities to make “money laundering” and “financial privacy” the same thing.** > **เจ้าหน้าที่บางคนพยายามทำให้ "การฟอกเงิน" กับ "ความเป็นส่วนตัวทางการเงิน" เป็นเรื่องเดียวกัน** บางหน่วยงานของรัฐบาลพยายามมองว่า การใช้ธุรกรรมทางการเงินแบบส่วนตัวนั้นผิดกฎหมาย เหมือนกับการฟอกเงิน * **That is, the mere act of moving money privately itself becomes a crime.** > **ก็คือ การโอนเงินแบบเป็นส่วนตัวกลายเป็นเรื่องผิดกฎหมายไปเลย** ซึ่งจริงๆแล้ว แค่โอนเงินแบบไม่ให้ใครรู้เห็น ไม่ได้หมายความว่าเป็นการฟอกเงินเสมอไป * **Money laundering is when money that is obtained through crime is concealed by obfuscating it with clean money.** > **การฟอกเงิน คือ การเอาเงินที่ได้มาจากทางผิดกฎหมาย ไปแอบแฝงให้ดูเหมือนได้มาอย่างถูกต้องตามกฎหมาย** การฟอกเงินจริงๆ คือ การเอาเงินที่ได้มาจากการทำผิดกฎหมาย ไปผสมกับเงินที่ได้มาอย่างสุจริต เพื่อให้ดูเหมือนเป็นเงินที่ได้มาทางที่ดี * **The actual crime is the initial non-financial crime (say, mob stuff), and historically money laundering involves manual activity to work with the criminals.** > **อาชญากรรมจริงๆ มันคือการกระทำผิดตั้งแต่แรก (เช่น พวกมาเฟีย) ส่วนการฟอกเงินนั้น ตามประวัติศาสตร์แล้ว ต้องอาศัยวิธีการยุ่งยาก เพื่อจัดการเงินกับพวกนอกกฎหมาย** อาชญากรรมจริงๆ คือ การกระทำผิดตั้งแต่แรก เช่น พวกค้ายา การฟอกเงินแบบเดิมๆ ต้องมีการจัดการเงินสด ผ่านช่องทางต่างๆ ซึ่งยุ่งยาก * **Now that open source tech can make certain transactions private, authorities increasingly equate all private money transfer with money laundering, even if the developer of the open source tech had no direct involvement with criminals. Authorities target them regardless, and sanction the technology itself.** > **เทคโนโลยีแบบ Open Source มันทำให้ธุรกรรมทางการเงินบางอย่างเป็นส่วนตัวได้ ตอนนี้เจ้าหน้าที่เลยเหมารวมว่า การโอนเงินแบบส่วนตัวทั้งหมดเป็นการฟอกเงิน แม้ว่าคนที่สร้างเทคโนโลยี Open Source จะไม่ได้ไปยุ่งเกี่ยวกับพวกนอกกฎหมายเลยก็ตาม เจ้าหน้าที่ก็ยังจับตามองและลงโทษเทคโนโลยีเหล่านั้นอยู่ดี** เทคโนโลยีสมัยใหม่ ทำให้การเงินบางอย่างเป็นส่วนตัวได้ง่ายขึ้น เจ้าหน้าที่เลยมองว่า คนที่ใช้เทคโนโลยีเหล่านี้ทุกคนฟอกเงิน แม้ว่าคนที่สร้างเทคโนโลยีจะไม่ได้ผิด ก็ยังโดนเพ่งเล็งอยู่ดี * **Financial privacy becomes synonymous with crime in their minds, and in the minds of the public.** > **ความคิดของเจ้าหน้าที่ และประชาชนทั่วไป มองว่า การเงินส่วนตัว = อาชญากรรม** เพราะเจ้าหน้าที่มองแบบนั้น ประชาชนทั่วไปก็เลยเข้าใจผิดไปด้วยว่า การเงินส่วนตัวเป็นเรื่องผิดกฎหมาย #siamstr
Monero fixes this. Why is there not more discussion about the need for and benefits of default privacy at the protocol level? And that Monero already offers this with a ten year track record? Bitcoin is revolutionary, but today people are being made vulnerable by the difficulty in achieving privacy. We need Bitcoin leaders to talk about this so it gets solved and people get protected. nostr:nevent1qqsdugaqvh8dg65dyq9jcl068am7lc2ecpx7c7ws8ld5g6749vrzd6qpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdupzp64suatdx2uqhn2xfu7cgjuqgqcrqadp864uxkv6wckf43atj860qvzqqqqqqycqc9kj
Now on my #TFQFavorites list nostr:note1mc36qeww634g6gqt937l50mhals4nszda3uaq07mg34a22cxym5qcealw0
Let me know if you think Lyn's remarks on financial privacy vs money laundering are a hot take https://primal.net/e/note1mc36qeww634g6gqt937l50mhals4nszda3uaq07mg34a22cxym5qcealw0
Now on my #TFQFavorites list nostr:note1v98t939t0qvt8lg6mxgsc4lafkv3kvhl7jj08ntevtlq86g9z4ms44f3gn
Now on my #TFQFavorites list nostr:note1hrnanmc2h75ktmw8w047kgw95k6mw57ljlhf3y8pya45uymgz9uq8p6e0e
