Oddbean new post about login | logout And that's still too much "asking permission", to me. We're working on increasingly obscure and niche OtherStuff implementations and I don't see why I have to give someone who has nothing to do with our project veto-rights over biomedical vector analysis or CAN bus communications or refrigerant logistics, etc. We're the experts. That's why we're building the implementation. 🤷♀️ And it starts lower down. Why do I need to discuss a publishing spec with people who aren't experienced with publishing or internal auditing? If they were experienced in publishing or internal auditing, they would be writing the spec. What does their approval even mean? Are they checking for typos?
This is what I mean by Stempelarbeit. The nice lady in the office has no idea if there was any point to the trip or if the trip was worthwhile or a good use of funds. She probably couldn't care less, that you took a trip and is just like *sigh* another stupid trip form to review. Those are 15 minutes of my life that I'll never get back. She's just in charge of stempling and giving permission. But, on what basis? In whose name? To what purpose? She is stempling because she has a Stempel. 🤷♀️
Do you want more administrative overhead or less? If you want someone to "watch" pages that can be done on the NIPs repo (again, wiki software is better, but not essentially different). But this is a massive increase in overhead. The NIPs repo contributors aren't there to debate ideas (although that happens too), just to vet whether a NIP has the requisite number of implementations, and merge corrections. This is a pretty lightweight role, but still quite taxing. If you want a permissionless wiki, then use the one that currently exists at wikifreedia. No one is stopping you. In fact, fiatjaf drafted https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1214, and to my knowledge I'm the only one so far who has published a NUD there. But this presents the opposite problem of potentially too little curation. I'm all for trying it, because forks are cool, but I'm not convinced it will be easier to navigate or more useful than the NIPs repo.
there are quite a few people ignoring the NIPs repo and making standards elsewhere and it's impossible to find them
I've noticed that too. This is not hard to solve, if the person writing the NIP wants it to be found. They can do a NUD, or they can submit a PR to the NIPs repo to link to an external NIP, which is also something that exists. But if people don't want to make sure people know about their own standards, there's not much anyone can do.
You basically announce what you are doing. If others like it, then they will also use, even help refine it. Point me to the exact places in the spec to help me find information i need to know - an address. Or a comment someone said on nostr relating to the situation. Sure, things could be super mixed up, but you could weight opinions or endorsements to find the best way to find your answers. There are ways to filter out noise, or they will be found because of need. I wrote two specs on Nostr Knowledge Bases (NKB). How can we navigate nostr's information, on any event. I'm not a web developer, so I have 2 NKBIPs out there (wikifreedia), asking for fast feedback and quick iteration. If people really like an idea, but if its not actively being worked on, other's can still see and work with it. There may be changes, but wouldn't that be good? The original author can still be in the conversation.
Yeah, you basically need an index. That's the github nips repo README. Of course, it's incomplete because people don't submit PRs to it, but it's there. Wikifreedia's #nud tag or something else could also serve as an index. We just have a tragedy of the commons because these things (or some thing thing) aren't being used.
TIL about NKBIPs. Are these conceptually the same as NUDs?
i wrote it up as a draft spec originally on github - just to have it out there. I'm not asking any change to the protocol, but ideas on how events can be organized and retreived. Its been on github since December, but its gotten way more visibility and feedback here.
Cool, I missed it on github then. The spec on wikifreedia seems much more generic than NUDs, almost a competing spec to the wiki one. So maybe it's not as applicable as I thought?
Generic is the point, i wouldn't say it competes however. A wiki has a spec for their articles. This spec is attempting to distil ideas individually so they can be worked with an grouped together. It comes with a 30041 which is very related to wikis 30023, but 30041 are just fragmented notes - and wouldn't be typically be shown by themselves. 30041 basically is an indication that it belongs to something broader - you can decompose a existing blog or paper, or you can just publish a modular article with the explicit concept that the ideas can be separated. You'd show them as a modular article, or note collection, via 30040 which can be a collection of any event type. I wouldn't expect any client other than what we are making to display the individual fragments.
that stands for Nostr Knowledge Base Implementation Possibility because it's a spec describing how to form a knowledge base. a spec for a specific use case, not a new type of spec
Ok, so NUDs are a new idea then? What do you dislike about them? They seem to solve most of your complaints, in that they're: - Permissionless - Published in a wiki format - Forkable and can be voted on - Nostr-native
I personally don't have a problem with the specific idea. An NKBIP can perfectly have a NUD tag if someone wants to add it, i just don't think it adds more meaning than NKBIP. Not an argument against a NUD, just that if things are already going to be so different, a global naming convention wouldn't make sense, and that NKBIP announces the purpose within its name.
1) Most standards don't need to be found by most devs because they don't use them. Nobody uses all of the NIPs, either, after all, and that effect is about to go parabolic. I think everyone just needs to sort of give up on spec management. 2) It's not impossible to find them. There is a list in the wiki for events or you can simply use elasticsearch on nos.today. Or just #asknostr. Make a DVM spec discovery tool. 3) You can see the events popping up on relays and just search for the ones that seems stick around for a while and add them to the list yourself. This is dynamic discovery and someone already built it. https://undocumented.nostrkinds.info/ 4) I don't need an event to announce the event that I'm publishing on relays and writing about in the wiki and in articles and discussing in communities. That's the same event being announced like 50 times and would encourage people to reserve NUD numbers that they don't end up using, or having NUD numbers assigned to unpopular events, like we have with the NIPS. This creates an ID "honeypot". 5) We don't need the "NUD". We have our own prefix. It's obvious that it is a Nostr spec, if it deals with Nostr and is a spec. 6) Implementations should lead. Marketing is proof of work. The best implementation will get the most attention and their spec will float to the top of the wiki or dominate the timeline for the people interested in that topic, and become the de facto standard. 7) We publish our specs on the wiki or other long-form articles, give the event a searcheable identifier, and then we implement it and talk about it all on Nostr. That gives everyone enough opportunity to find it, who is genuinely interested. https://wikifreedia.xyz/nip-event-register/npub1m4ny6hjqzepn4rxknuq94c2gpqzr29ufkkw7ttcxyak7v43n6vvsajc2jl
> We don't need the "NUD". We have our own prefix. Apparently, but this is the first time I've heard about NKBIPs. The least you could have done is mention it on the github repository. We're directionally aligned here, I just really don't understand the hostility toward the existing forum for talking about nostr.
Why should we go back there? We are trying to move all of our interactions to Nostr, not away from it. We are putting our code and our documentation where our ♥️ is.
If you decide you want to change a venue in real life, you don't just show up at the new one and expect everyone to be there.
Y'all built the venue. I assumed that you would all be arriving, eventually.
Would you and/or nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qg3waehxw309ahx7um5wgh8w6twv5hszxmhwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wfcxcetzwvhxxmmd9uq35amnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3ww35x2umpd4jkxct59e5k7tcprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qguwaehxw309a6xsetrd96xzer9dshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qgkwaehxw309a3x2an09ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qpqm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqtqc5tv like to come on the TGFN podcast to talk about it?
This topic, i don't know if I'd be too comfortable talking about 😅
Yeah, it's ehspicy. I was looking at your profile to find out more about you, but didn't really find anything. Do you have a project you work on I could read about?
nostr:nprofile1qqsd6ejdteqpvse63ntf7qz6u9yqspp4z7ymt8094urzwm0x2ceaxxgprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qguwaehxw309a6xsetrd96xzer9dshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qg3waehxw309ahx7um5wgh8w6twv5hshhq5j3 kickstarted things with this article: https://highlighter.com/laeserin/1719204947236 Which was picked up by nostr:nprofile1qqsx8zd7vjg70d5na8ek3m8g3lx3ghc8cp5d9sdm4epy0wd4aape6vspz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqzyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn9qyxhwumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmvycz39a and he added some cool extrapolations 😁 https://fountain.fm/episode/5D7Ds8tpivptu5OPy0lQ https://fountain.fm/episode/RtokKi1qHtjPNHGY7yuK And an article on Zettelkasten, a personal knowledge management system that we're brainstorming how to scale up for collaborative uses. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NfdHG6oHBJ8Qxc26s/the-zettelkasten-method-1
Cool, I've been listening to nostr:nprofile1qyw8wumn8ghj7un9d3shjtngd9nksmrfva58getj9e3k7mf0qyt8wumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnddaehgu3wwp6kytcpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhszxthwden5te0wfjkccte9ekk7mt0wd68ytnsd9hxktcpzemhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2un9d3shjtnrdakj7qgkwaehxw309ajkgetw9ehx7um5wghxcctwvshszythwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn99uqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshszxrhwden5te0dehhxerjd9mx2tnpwpcz7un9d3shjqgnwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxvdm69e5k7tcqyp3cn0nyj8nmdylf7d5we6y0e5297p7qdrfvrwawgfrmnd00gwwnythrc95 , I'll give that article a read.
We will be doing an interview with @NunyaBidness soon. That's what he wanted the calendar entry for.
GitCitadel also has a private group, now, at https://coracle.social/groups/naddr1qvzqqqytlgpzqzp7p4ekweu59qlue8u46gtfjm30w33r527zr6n2hz89ejg4cnyxqqgrywfjx5cnxvfexsursv3hxccny2z3luq/ but I can only seem to login to Coracle using nos2x with Kiwi browser. Nos2x with chrome and Nos2x with firefox and anything with Amber, all seem to not work. 🤷♀️ I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong or why it worked in that one particular case.
This is what I see. https://i.nostr.build/Dj2cKjQmsOJMOept.png
If I click on "Authorize forever", it just pops up again and again and again.
It pops up four time. A fifth time if you post a note. It forgets them all if you close the tab.
I think this is a nos2x thing. The authorizations are for different things. nostr:nprofile1qyd8wumn8ghj7urewfsk66ty9enxjct5dfskvtnrdakj7qgmwaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8wetnw3jhymnzw33jucm0d5hsz9thwden5te0wfjkccte9ejxzmt4wvhxjme0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uqzqwlsccluhy6xxsr6l9a9uhhxf75g85g8a709tprjcn4e42h053vahj2kfz
That's nos2x-fox, not my code, not my responsibility, I am forever free from having to fix that bug.
Same thing in brave I'm afraid
Same thing in chrome with nos2x.
https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/nuds/71.md I've never heard of NUDs. NIP-71 is actually video data, not NUDs. 🤷♀️
And I'm on Nostr, not GitHub. Talk about stuff here. This is a protocol designed for communicating and the feed is full of software developers.
I'll publish a NUD, but I doubt anyone will look at it.
At that point, I'd also argue that naming should be descriptive. If you're not asking for change to the protocol, I don't see a need to stick to a convention.
This is part of the point of NUDs. They don't need to be on github, and they don't need numbers. The collision on number is part of the reason NUDs were proposed. Of course, they were proposed on github, because that's where people have historically requested feedback for additions to the protocol. If you don't want to participate in that conversation you don't have to, but don't complain that people aren't doing exactly what you're asking for if you're choosing not to read about it.
I'm not asking them to do anything. That's my point. They're the ones upset that major spec writers are starting to ignore the repo and document on the wiki, instead. We like the wiki better. 🤷♀️ I have no idea why anyone finds this hard to believe. Nostr > GitHub
I’m confused. Where do I look for the definitive NIPs?
There is no such thing as a definitive NIP.
As nostr becomes fragmented and lineages diverge, the definitive NIP repository will be the developer circle you are a part of. There is nothing wrong with that. Be interoperable with your friends or just use your own relays.
This is all by design in a decentralized, permissionless infrastructure. The github nips repo works for a circle of developers, of which many take influence, and would like to contribute but doing so on a permissioned platform is getting annoying. There is nothing wrong using it as the defacto repository or a model for "The Nostr" local to everyone that wants to take influence. The problem is that nostr is too good and using any other system is starting to get painful (damn you developers! ✊). Just let the ideas compete with other specs. Make a whitelist relay where you and others curate and incubate the ideas. Others could fork on their own relays, but no one needs to listen - unless it actually makes sense for the client. Ultimately, its a public announcement of "i'm using this spec" and you don't need to leave nostr to be part of the "official" conversation.
I basically agree, but I don't think people are spending the necessary time on making sure consensus works. Fragmentation is ok, but the target is maximum interoperability, not maximum fragmentation. Everyone making up their own specs is an unbalanced approach, just as running everything through one permissioned source is unbalanced. Of the two, I personally prefer the github model, because it's proven to work, while the bizarre bazar is untested. But I'm willing to participate in experimentation with a middle ground.
The events produced are their own interoperability check.
You could say the same of all software. Just because slack doesn't talk to discord doesn't make them members of the same protocol. Interoperability doesn't happen by accident.
Maybe you're arguing that standards can be inferred by published events. Sort of. I think that was always the goal for NIPs. But that's like saying documentation isn't necessary, just go read the source code.
Static documentation isn't necessary, it's true, but it's useful marketing material or a basis for discussion. Nostr has a built-in incentive for people to use other people's events, so that they can capture part of the same audience. An open protocol is a novel idea whose time has come. We're just embracing it.
We're (GitCitadel) are developing educational technology on top of nostr to help create a knowledge base of nostr development. Using Behavior Driven Development we can create pieces of text that can be navigated either by humans or an LLM to help find the functions needed to implement ideas. If you want to dive in, here are some sources. We want anyone interested in nostr to build the client using examples from other experienced devs. Also happy to explain more. nostr:nevent1qqsv939lv5kvu7w3asfdjv6y243rhq7w998hqu4d8e224du349cl3qcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqzewng6f nostr:nevent1qqs04kedxaut7k3ns6kmv9n47rw298j3qjkeem2xmnxdrn8qyxv43cspr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqpfpzh3l
The specs we've formalized so far: Modularizing content - chunking. Helps with navagibility and encapsulating ideas, https://wikifreedia.xyz/nkbip-01/npub1m4ny6hjqzepn4rxknuq94c2gpqzr29ufkkw7ttcxyak7v43n6vvsajc2jl Embeddings on nostr - you find a piece of text worth embedding? Put the embedding on nostr for anyone to grab and use. https://wikifreedia.xyz/nkbip-02/npub1m3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqhqa5sf
Our whole Operating Function / OS is premised on the concept of closures. Take typed functional programming and create a closure of the highest loop and you end up with the full state of a running machine (homoiconic data _and_ code) as a single serializable and portable value. I think our tech compliments many of the ideas in NKBIP-01 very well. What you are describing is basically Supercombinators for ideas, what we provide is supercombinators for compute 🤝 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzeYhSp1pw
We're gonna need you to explain these concepts in terms of Behavior Driven Development, maybe I'd understand then 😉🤣
My only familiarity with BDD is the testing strategy (TDD/BDD, etc.) is that what you mean? I'm very happy to explain these things to you, but want to make sure we're meeting in the right place. You can think of a supercombinator as a function with no free variables - no external state or necessary context. Everything you need to get a reproduceable result when running a function with certain arguments is all bundled up in one place with no dependencies. Your mention of a "Semantic Closure" struck me as extremely overlapping with our use of closures and it seemed like a good starting place to see where we might be able to help each other. At the risk of going too far too soon: The open source system we're building can be thought of as a kind of Turing complete programming environment + Virtual Machine. It's a single, portable binary with no external dependencies necessary on the host system. You run this one binary, and the entire VM/OS is running. All data and code (user data, programs, etc.) is collapsed into a single value - one enormous number (thus it, too, is highly portable. you can turn off a running machine, send the entire "single value" over the network, turn it back on on the other end and it picks up right where it left off - it doesn't even know it turned off.) Data and functions are content-addressable within the machine no matter where it is, similar to IPFS content addressing. The machine was over here, providing data or a function result at content-addressed-endpoint-X earlier? then you "moved the logical machine to a different physical machine" and turned it back on? your data or function is still available at the same content-addressed-endpoint-X as before. This is highly valuable for Nostr relays, DVMs, static content hosting, chat backend, you name it. Anything that would benefit from an always-on, always-available "server-like" process that you'd like to be extremely simple, dependency-free, trivial to run by a non-technical person, and durable forever. I'll stop there because there a billion things I could say here - but the rabbit hole should be dug in the most useful direction for you - not wherever my rambling is taking me...
https://i.nostr.build/8bMNttMR5C7DPRRM.jpg Whether that means building the system itself, or contributing to the kb. nostr:nevent1qqswm75eksyxnrnmxxhkq3uv3qzd9yvk8pen9xhtdmuj8nsvuf46a5spr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqp5phd9g
Following to maybe use it one day. 🥹
Soon™️ The infrastructure is all here including monetary incentives for devs to contribute code. Once the doors open and we have a sufficient proccess for self documenting code + uploading notes, after a large enough interconnected KB is built, there will be no competition for organizing information, remixing and navigation.
https://i.nostr.build/oinGLZTw58ln74mo.jpg nostr:nevent1qqsdtknt8kl0l79n7egp0hemdqtz750msmv0p7ma3w0qch4z77esyrqpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqz6pkqqq
This also include bitcoin education and development, privacy, security. Anything you care to write about will be formalized, organized and grouped with other similar ideas. Anyone with a similar interest can meander in that space, and dive into as deep detail as provided by the users. nostr:nevent1qqsteypl762a4pcqpye978wqnw2kjhjnwjrceg9qhw3y39jj2uvyl4cpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqz997km3
"Sounds like a virtual treasure trove of knowledge waiting to be explored! Who needs conformity when you can dive into the deep end of creativity and innovation? Count me in for the non-traditional education journey! 💡🚀 #ThinkOutsideTheBox"
https://i.nostr.build/8bMNttMR5C7DPRRM.jpg Whether that means building the system itself, or contributing to the kb. nostr:nevent1qqswm75eksyxnrnmxxhkq3uv3qzd9yvk8pen9xhtdmuj8nsvuf46a5spr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqp5phd9g
Following to maybe use it one day. 🥹
Soon™️ The infrastructure is all here including monetary incentives for devs to contribute code. Once the doors open and we have a sufficient proccess for self documenting code + uploading notes, after a large enough interconnected KB is built, there will be no competition for organizing information, remixing and navigation.
https://i.nostr.build/oinGLZTw58ln74mo.jpg nostr:nevent1qqsdtknt8kl0l79n7egp0hemdqtz750msmv0p7ma3w0qch4z77esyrqpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqz6pkqqq
This also include bitcoin education and development, privacy, security. Anything you care to write about will be formalized, organized and grouped with other similar ideas. Anyone with a similar interest can meander in that space, and dive into as deep detail as provided by the users. nostr:nevent1qqsteypl762a4pcqpye978wqnw2kjhjnwjrceg9qhw3y39jj2uvyl4cpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqz997km3
"Sounds like a virtual treasure trove of knowledge waiting to be explored! Who needs conformity when you can dive into the deep end of creativity and innovation? Count me in for the non-traditional education journey! 💡🚀 #ThinkOutsideTheBox"
Soon™️ The infrastructure is all here including monetary incentives for devs to contribute code. Once the doors open and we have a sufficient proccess for self documenting code + uploading notes, after a large enough interconnected KB is built, there will be no competition for organizing information, remixing and navigation.
https://i.nostr.build/oinGLZTw58ln74mo.jpg nostr:nevent1qqsdtknt8kl0l79n7egp0hemdqtz750msmv0p7ma3w0qch4z77esyrqpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqz6pkqqq
Getting paid to learn, what about getting paid to teach? https://i.nostr.build/8bMNttMR5C7DPRRM.jpg Whether that means building the system itself, or contributing to the kb. nostr:nevent1qqswm75eksyxnrnmxxhkq3uv3qzd9yvk8pen9xhtdmuj8nsvuf46a5sprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7q3qm3xdppkd0njmrqe2ma8a6ys39zvgp5k8u22mev8xsnqp4nh80srqxpqqqqqqzrmfwdm
I see your private custodial lightning service, and raise you a: **closed loop nostr development ecosystem** where experienced devs contribute how they solve build, test, debug - to a knowledge base, built with nostr infrastructure. Getting paid to teach and publish their implementations - indexed and organized by nostr clients, followed by recommendations to users for how to develop nostr clients based on the tools they use. helping newcomers who wan't to build with inspiration from nostr's best devs. its all mostly here. A client needs to make a giant bow to wrap it with, which is what we (GitCitadel) are aspiring for. nostr:nevent1qqsw209yxpvpqqfk35m32zkmakzl3kknwyd5s6afwm0etphs39he7pgpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqp6lv2lh
Bullish.
Hm, your npub.cash address doesn’t seem to be working. Any other issues reported?
changed the address, until its working again 😆
It’s back up. 🤙 note1zxs6zdrey0xq30gxfycwtu09fannrkt3cdn9362f9rcmqqs2jk7sfquyhc
changed the address, until its working again 😆
It’s back up. 🤙 note1zxs6zdrey0xq30gxfycwtu09fannrkt3cdn9362f9rcmqqs2jk7sfquyhc
