Oddbean

Bitcoin networks and layers in aggregate has scaled and will scale much more than Monero. That’ll continue for the next decade. I’d happily bet a lot on it. I like Monero in an idealistic world but I’m not gonna wait around for the unlikely adoption that is way far behind

Didn't one of you guys already say the same thing about darknet markets? I wouldn't be so sure, Nostradamus https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/1f90427dc509f688d750d255d92b72f31f9bd43b8d097617e5418697e49f98a7.webp https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/78ada4b1d25c1434aea6d6674655c493dc5f106d1d6e3bc487a04292d7e1667f.webp https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/29751b4dc7834f41ea1f309b1f3086ce57166cc3944547744417e606510e59f8.webp https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/6738c99c554a656adb4a85a6be30b2f92db7ec7940f83cc9a9c1172889093e05.webp

What layers does Bitcoin have besides lightning that have any real adoption? Even if we include the 85% custodial users on lightning it is still meager. I think believing the world is going to adopt Bitcoin (or any crypto) is an idealistic world. Especially on government controlled white markets.

Here’s my point that you keep dodging: Global Bitcoin adoption is thousands of miles ahead of Monero. Its chance of adoption is way higher. https://image.nostr.build/54d28e6b6f4938ce59bd83d9fb6d2a95b726e6e72f5908573681e3ac81710138.jpg

You're the one that just dodged my previous question lmao You're just proving my point with this centralized ledger white market price/volume chart (AKA permissioned) where the majority of Bitcoin economic activity resides (defeating the whole point of Bitcoin) Aside from ideological fanatics, there is no reason to use Bitcoin for a transaction, if you're going to adhere to the rules, when fiat exists and already does that way better. It's far more accepted too.

I’ll address your question that holds no weight in a pro-monero argument. My context from the preceding reply was “BTC networks and layers in aggregate”. AKA all layers. Yes you have a point about layers beyond L1. I also will concede BTC privacy has a long way to go. I still would rather sacrifice conveniently accessible privacy for the adoption and network effects advantages of the Bitcoin network. What is your point about white market pricing? Do you think higher XMR↔️BTC swap volume happens in black markets? Implying black markets signal a more realistic relative price? Fiat is better? On what planet? You really think permission-required, KYC-required, censorable, cross-border expensive/impossible, sometimes multi-day up to 2 month (credit card) final settlement, supply-dilution-prone fiat is better??

My point is white market transactions mean jack shit for Bitcoins value prop so you can throw that permissioned volume in the garbage. Yes, fiat is much better if you're going to make a transaction that follows all the rules anyway. https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle

The white market transactions mean much more than jack shit because the daily billions in volume communicate to price oracles and set the fiat denominated price that all markets transact at. I get your point about white markets forfeiting a major value prop. But that’s a western financial privilege trade off that millions of market participants are willing to make. Until they touch the stove or get rugged I guess. Quit implying there is only a “all the rules” or “none of the rules” binary. I can think of scenarios with some of the rules. Many of them are better than fiat and some scenarios are worse than fiat at a transaction snapshot analysis level. Clearly you’re going to continue to cope in your niche puritan community for a long time. Enjoy the much lower probability of adoption 👍🏼

That just makes the price and volume much easier to manipulate by these handful of centralized exchanges and frontrun normal users before their government takes it's turn in censoring/stealing/surveilling them. Users can do what they want. I'm just pointing out it makes zero sense to use Bitcoin that way. It's the worst of Bitcoin and the worst of fiat with none of the benefits of either. Has nothing to do with being puritan (ironically a bitcoin maxi is calling others puritans, which I am not) it's about larping like these centralized, custodial, white market transactions are Bitcoin or have any relevance to it's core value prop. Monero is already plenty adopted on the only markets that matter for Bitcoins value prop