Oddbean

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @5392447a i am okay with being condescended on by them as they have no moral high ground and them acting like the fun police ensures that everyone worth having stays on the non religious side of the network.

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 @jaf Eventually, all the cool Fediverse users who stick around and want to have fun and actually contribute to the community and wider shared culture end up escaping across the Mastodon Iron Curtain to the "alt" side. @78b3e470 @5392447a

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @5392447a communism kills. this is why it's okay to bully these guys, they're tankies.

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 @jaf They're not tankies. I'm honestly arguably a tankie. They're neolibs, if they share any sociopolitical commonality, or if we're going to bring politics into this. @78b3e470 @5392447a

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @5392447a what you think are tankies are neolibs and vice versa.

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @jaf Okay, now I'm completely confused who you're talking about. 😅

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 @5392447a @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 anyone who runs a large server. moderation does not scale beyond double digit users locally. people can disagree but they're naive.

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 @jaf @78b3e470 @b17a3b4f First of, thanks for the respectful answers.

I'm curious about who you'd include in the definition of "them". I know about the controversy around .art, also of course around Eugen (I even wrote a massive critic on my blog when he made massoc the default instance in the Mastodon app, lol). Given I often see a lot of embracement for other Fedi software (mostly due to my instance being closely connected to the german CCC) I get the feeling of missing some key arguments right now.

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 @5392447a @78b3e470 @b17a3b4f the problem i always have is that people shoot first and assume the worst possible case and never ask for clarifications. this breeds a culture of fear and paranoia which has killed all creativity that could have been over there. it's always the same types of people, the micromanagers of the lives of others. the internet's stasi.

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 @5392447a @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 them = anyone who runs a server with triple digit users and expects shit to work at all.

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 @jaf @78b3e470 @b17a3b4f I'm on a 4-digits invite-only instance (at least it was when I was invited) and it works kinda nice, honestly. 🤔 The admins are doing quite a good job.

You seem to talk about wildly different people. Like, tankies, neolibs, big servers... what is it? 🤨

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 @5392447a @78b3e470 @b17a3b4f big servers run by people who use the network effect to be moral busybodies.

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 @5392447a I, personally, am specifically referring to cartels of Mastodon instances which work in coordination to disparage and sabotage other instances and instance softwares via abuse of things like #fediblock. @jaf @78b3e470

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @jaf Could you name one of those cartels so I can look more into it? 🤔

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 @5392447a @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 trawl that hashtag you'll see it

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 @jaf Yeah, true, you can see active participants in the hashtag. But, to name a few, other than mastodon.art, off the top of my head: cathode.church, union.place, cosmick9.com, eldritch.cafe, artisan.chat, and the parties that comprise the "Oliphant" block-list oligarchy. The laughable part of the Oliphant block-list is how they claim it's "algorithmic" based on "consensus ", when, in practice, as soon as one of the maintainers adds anyone to that block-list, all the others follow suit, therefore immediately creating unanimity. These block-lists are promoted and advertised as being professionally maintained and independently vetted when they're absolutely not, and primarily (either due to market-share or culture) Mastodon instances widely subscribe---blindly---to these giant block-lists put together by other Mastodon instances. When talking about block-lists and #fediblock, this is genuinely a purely Mastodon behavior or phenomenon. They represent easily like 80% or more of the active participants therein. @5392447a @78b3e470

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @jaf Mmh... I'm very curious then what will come out of those projects aiming to improve the moderation and block decisions. Apparently some kind of federated system allowing for sharing of reasoning, proofs and all that stuff. Could make it better if done properly, could also make it infinitely worse.

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 @5392447a @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 that sounds like a federated version of kiwifarms

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 @5392447a The correct answer is for these Mastodon groups to adopt whitelist federation and fuck off, stop harassing the rest of us with their hateful, vindictive neuroticism and abusing, controlling personality disorders. @78b3e470 @jaf

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 The "problem" with this stuff is it doesn't really work. There will always be an incentive to abuse the list and add people over personal gripes, and everyone else who is party to the list needs to reach absolute consensus in every case.

Every construct like this will sooner or later lead to the maintainers exhausting themselves and splitting up in an orgy of drama.

The only people who really suffer from this are the ones on these instances with restrictive policies - who don't realize they can just walk away, and of course the ones stuck on central platforms because "omg mastodon is insufferable"...

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 @b17a3b4f @78b3e470 @5392447a this tbh. the weaponization of the network effect by a small group of psychotic malicious backstabbing crybullies is THE biggest pain point.