Oddbean

Monero users think that Value lies in the utility. Bitcoiners think that network security is free and they can just sit on their bags and make "money" (fiat) So the evidence shows that the opposite is true

Fair enough but if you can't verify the supply its just not good money. I typically don't dunk on Monero because I respect people wanting privacy. Its the least bad shitcon but its still a shitcoin.

things are shitcoins for actual reasons there's no particular characteristic of monero that makes it shitty ie you're already trusting cryptographic primitives on bitcoin more complicated than the range proofs that guarantee moneros supply. so from a technical standpoint its kinda weird for bitcoiners to bitch and moan about moneros supply auditability

Even if what you're saying is true gold was THE money for most of human history and you still can't verify the supply. So obviously that didn't matter for money - only that it was scarce and you couldn't arbitrarily print it

You could strengthen this argument by saying counterfeit monero would be like pyrite or fool's gold, the difference is we don't know if counterfeit monero exists. You can get gold for free without working for it (owning a mine) but someone still has to do the work (mining). Pyrite is a way to bypass the gold mining entirely - false proof of work. It's contingent on the average trader not knowing how to distinguish it from the real deal. It doesn't stop gold from working as money because the more you use it, the closer you get to being found out, which is always inevitable after enough time.

You can also use periodic turnstiles too. Not sure if that is better or worse though, since it would potentially screw honest users if bad actors get through first, but would definitely guarantee sound supply if thats what was truly desired I guess? But it's an option I too think a supply bug would eventually be discovered either indirectly through severely negative price action, devs/honest users finding it eventually themselves and reporting it, and malicious actors telling their friends and so on. The old saying that two people can only keep a secret if the other is dead. People cant help running their mouth. Nothing can be done about the aftermath of a supply bug that is taken advantage of whether it's Bitcoin or Monero. Your only option to fix it requires having to screw over people who gave away real goods and services for "fake coins". Or leave the fake coins in the supply. Either thing does damage to users. The only advantage Bitcoin has is potentially finding it sooner. The 2018 Bitcoin double spend bug was not caught via noderunners. A single honest anon secretly reported it to devs.

People using gold before they knew about pyrite didn't stop using it when they found out about pyrite, so Monero doesn't have to go to zero if counterfeit Monero is discovered. Someday it would be like pyrite or fool's gold, where it's been around for a long time and it's common knowledge and you can't get away with trying to use it in place of the real deal at all.

It's not really a feature. Sure, fiat gains aren't the point, and too many people act like they are. But you want your asset to outpace the devaluation of the dollar, and as an early adopter that is taking significant risk with capital, you want to benefit from later inflows as people see what you saw early. I do think people will see what we see in Monero as time goes on, and I'm glad that it's slow and steady because it keeps these fiat gains maxis at bay, but you absolutely want price discovery, and if what we have is as good as we say it is, that should happen over time and the indicator of that is dollars become worth less than XMR.

Fair enough, I totally agree with that. of course, Cantillionaire degens aping into your favorite commodity Isn't an actual indicator of value. I suppose theres a sweet spot where organic adoption happens. but I'm not convinced that has to outpace USD inflation. and certainly not BTC speculation.