Oddbean

No that is incorrect. There is no “rogue” because there is no trust. If they sent a bad update I would not use it. You CAN “change the algo” anytime you want. You would have another dogecoin or bcash or whatever. Not sure if you are trolling but if you honestly are curious about this issue I reccomend “Bitcoin University” on YouTube or Odysee

I know Bitcoin pretty well. I am not trolling. The though I currently play with is that there is always a minority of people we trust our funds with: either the government and the central banks (which are - in the end - organizations of humans) or algorithms, which run on computers. We can just decide whom we trust more, if we buy Bitcoin with fiat we reveal that we trust the Bitcoin elite more than the central bank elite. However ... the bitcoin code is written and maintained by _humans_, and the nodes are also operated by humans. All the electronics are just helpful, we can also do the Bitcoin algorithm on paper, but it won't be feasible. You say "if they sent a bad update I would not use it" great, but what about the not-that-tech-savy guy, who just runs his raspiblitz, umbrel node, or has bought a node from blockstream or whatever? Probably with auto updates enabled. Practically the node is then not operated by the not-that-tech-savy guy - it just runs in his closet or something - but is operated by the maintainers of raspiblitz, umbrel, or whomever.

There is no auto-update for raspiblitz not sure about umbrel. this is not an argument against bitcoin. You are committing to take control over your own finances, being you own bank, and being a sovereign individual. -the least you can do is check your software before updating. This check means reading nostr, blogs, or any active communication protocol to see if any attack has taken place. if communication is cut, then do not update

You don't understand me. My point is: most people will always trust a minority of humans with their money. We can just decide whom minority we trust more. The maintainers could have added malicious code to the pre build binary images which is executed in 10 years or something. Or they could enable auto updates in a sneaky way or something. Did you verify that? But most people won't do that. They trust the devs in good faith to not go rogue, or that the bad behavior is detected soon enough.

I did verify that. also for an example of what I'm saying did you see the news about the ssh backdoor into linux servers? we were alerted immediately. those server builds are very valuable but is it as valuable as bitcoin?

You mean the ssh backdoor thru xz-utils? Yes, you where alerted. But just because there are enough vigilant people who keep a close eye on their IT. People who do this are part of a minority. My train of thought goes like the following: 1) If less people trust the central banking and instead shift their funds to Bitcoin, they trust just another elite (not bankers, but coders). 2) the Bitcoin infrastructure runs on servers. controlled by people, maintained by people and the tools provided by people. This is the new elite and it is a minority. 3) you cannot take this for granted. Neither that the IT guys will remain always vigilant, nor do we know about the backdoors we weren't alerted to. Bitcoinization puts a high burden on the new elite (the coders, you and I). Because everyone uses software, but only a small amount is paranoid enough to not blindly trust the electronic devices. these devices are now not only used to shitpost on the internet anymore, but also used to manage life's savings. I am not sure if we know that we're getting ennobled. For example: concerning technology, my non techie friends won't go into this depth, but rather trust my judgement of what technology to use. I also can just understand the devices I use to a certain degree. After that comes trust in the judgement of other people. I can only hope that I trust in the right people and not get betrayed, because downstream from my decisions are my friends who trust my judgement. #btc #bitcoin

Ok I suppose I can see your point- self responsibility is higher than ever. But I think that is exactly why we are here. To regain sovereignty and take responsibility over our wealth and our lives. The ssh util backdoor is a perfect example of how open source defends itself. Now add all the wealth involved and we have an order of magnitude more intense monitoring of the code in bitcoin. If it is fair to summarize: I am presenting an argument as if to a no-coiner, your argument between network peers is a healthy reminder to verify our sources and minimize trusted devs, influencer personalities, etc. Which is an especially poignant point today I think. 🫡

I can add a fourth item to that list: 4) assumed a critical vulnerability is discovered in bitcoin or lightning and it is mailed to the core devs. You want the core devs to be "good" or else they might use the bug to enrich themself before fixing and publishing the vulnerability.

“Good” here means ensuring the value of whatever coins they already have or ones they want to steal. What good is it to steal Satoshi coins for example? How many hours would you have to spend them with any value? And yes we are taking on a heavy responsibility. Better that than fiat slavery my brother.

My point is since the beginning of this thread: we will always trust / consent to a minority with our lives savings. The bitcoin elites have just less incentives /possibilities to do something bad compared to fiat central banking elites. But they have the option to act in bad faith. Hence we want them to be good, because they can short our lives savings to buy another Lamborghini or whatever their heart desires. But bad people can infiltrate these elite circles and do bad things.

Are you more concerned about: Maintaining purchasing power over time without exploiting others ? Code sabotage/institutional reliability ? Influencers/politics ? Address each issue one by one and if you find a better solution than Bitcoin than please let us know.

These issues are all interconnected. But I am mostly concerned with code sabotage and institutional reliability (bitcoin Devs and Ops and the servers they maintain are the institutions). From this everything else is derived. If less people trust bitcoin then the purchasing power drops. This can be done through code sabotage and influencers amplifying FUD and other bollocks (like monkey jpegs on the blockchain). Politics play their own game and politicians are experienced with this. Up until bitcoin the state and the military industrial complex was concerned with defending our property. With bitcoin we put our eggs in another basket. They lose the grip of their power. But they still have the guns, bombs and kompromat.