Oddbean

The idea that human beings by nature are wicked is the mother of all evil. The first offspring you get from this concept is the idea that we need a state, because we are rabid beasts bound to kill each other if nobody gets a monopoly on the use of violence. The next offspring is deception in the form of a monopoly on money production, in past times argued to be "necessary to promote trade," nowadays argued to be necessary because "we need some inflation to grease the wheels of the economy." Once the monopoly in money production has been put into place, the state can create money out of nothing and thus be in a position where it always can win the competition for all sorts of scarce resources, including bread, brains and bullets. People who disagree with me on this should read Hobbe's Leviathan and the writings of most of today's academics within the social sciences - then ask themselves who these court scribblers have inspired. When the three aforementioned evil ideas 1. man is by nature wicked 2. someone must have a monopoly on use of violence 3. this someone must have a monopoly on production of money are allowed to dictate the evolution of the social order, everything that happens to be positive for the citizenry is in view of the de facto rulers either just a necessity for staying in or increasing power or an unintended and unfortunate consequence. Therefore, it's utterly foolish NOT to expect that it's a decently high probability that all politics, including elections, imply some level of "rigging," or should we say, neverending "stacking" of cards in favor of the political class and against the citizenry. Everything else within the domain of political science, economics and sociology is in my opinion details of minimal importance. In conclusion: It's the idea that humankind by nature is wicked that we must cleans out of people's hearts and minds.. To achieve this we must come up with a superior idea. And the only superior idea is that human beings are by nature kind, and that it's bad incentive structures put in place by someone posing as 'protectors' that make people act badly.

I mention this SO much. The entire anglophone’s notion of human nature is literally based on this one piece of obligatory fiction, penned by the headmaster of a boys’ boarding school (and we *know* what they are like) and reinforced by daily ‘news’ propaganda. The reality, of course, is the polar opposite. God dealt this little synchronicity very nicely 🙏 https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

I agree with Ayn Rand on this. Human are by nature neither evil, nor good. Humans are blank sheets; we equally have the capacity to manifest good and evil. It’s our choices and decisions that determine who and what we are. Being good leads to human flourishing, “goodness” is good exactly because of this reason. But you have to act upon it, don’t be a passive observer of life, live it to the best possible standards; you make your own life, you decide your own standards.

I read most of her books and was on my way to becone an objectivist. And 20 years later I conclude that both logics and experience dictate that she had this one wrong. John Steinbeck got it right, IMO, in East of Eden. And he was just as much as a thinker as Ayn was. In fact I think he understood human nature way better than her. Ayn also lacked a proper understanding of money. She adored the gold standard, if I remember correctly, but should have embraced monetary freedom. This is what John wrote: Steinbeck monster evil "I believe there are monsters born in the world to human parents. Some you can see, misshapen and horrible, with huge heads or tiny bodies; some are born with no arms, no legs, some with three arms, some with tails or mouths in odd places. They are accidents and no one's fault, as used to be thought. Once they were considered the visible punishment for concealed sins. And just as there are physical monsters, can there not be mental or psychic monsters born? The face and body may be perfect, but if a twisted gene or a malformed egg can produce physical monsters, may not the same process produce a malformed soul?" These poor souls are IMO the exceptions.

Interesting, I don’t know too much about Steinbeck so I’ll have to look into that, thank you. I don’t know if Rand would be totally opposed to that. There are people born with defects of all sorts (mental and physical), but one says that [the average] man is born a certain way and according to certain rules. There will always be instances of malformed people (as explained by Mr. Steinbeck in your quote), but they’re not the norm. I like Rand a lot, but I wouldn’t call myself an all out religious objectivist. I follow reason where I see reason, and she just happened to be rational pretty often.

so you think human nature is good? you are more insightful than everything from buddhism to christianity to Nietzsche to the evil in the human heart manifest all through history..... ? simply declaring that its the "incentives" lets me know that your balls have receded sufficiently that they are now affecting your larynx? i would love for you to go practice this inpenetrable reasoning with the venezeulan gangs taking over Aurora... where do you get this idea that people are by nature "kind" from?

its not about entertainment... its about you pushing "all people are kind" kindergarten level bullshit... at a time when the evil is in men is so fucking obvious you would have to be peaking on ayahuasca to deny it...

its a simple question about human nature dude... YOU are going against pretty much all philosophy religion and history with your assertion that human beings are "kind" by nature... onus is on you nigger.

Incentives rule. Steinbeck wrote in East of Eden: "I believe there are monsters born in the world to human parents. Some you can see, misshapen and horrible, with huge heads or tiny bodies; some are born with no arms, no legs, some with three arms, some with tails or mouths in odd places. They are accidents and no one's fault, as used to be thought. Once they were considered the visible punishment for concealed sins And just as there are physical monsters, can there not be mental or psychic monsters born? The face and body may be perfect, but if a twisted gene or a malformed egg can produce physical monsters, may not the same process produce a malformed soul?" I concur. But the overwhelming majority of human beings are born kind and with an instinct for cooperation. My experience confirms this, and I think it's logical. But when evil men are allowed to design institutions that dictate incentives, mosg people also have the capability of acting in malevolent ways. That's also logical and in line with my experience. Now, I'm not going to discuss this with you. You might find something useful in Bregdan's book. At least it won't hurt you. And it's well written

steinbeck huh? absolute bullshit that completely ignores the existence and purpose of the Will. this is passive starry-eyed nonsense that gets your daughters raped by invaders. open eyes. grow up.

who cares what you think? you make grand assertions about human nature that goes against 5000 years of human thought, history and experience and then your pussy hurts when someone asks you to define your shit... "but this is MY experience" narcissism is a real bitch.

You're welcome, you have encountered my kind self tonight. Let's catch up later, see if we agree on something too. No hard feelings. Didn't want to say stupid thing to you, but you craved it so much, so I thought I would just have to give it to you.

stuff like this: https://image.nostr.build/659d1e97ca9ca4a9429bc0479fff41e5080b5258c6f3121534dad2031fbdcd3d.jpg https://image.nostr.build/b10597bbcbd46f42422b0fb1226c3ca21cd9e8f7bf8de404591fa38ca96a73a4.jpg