Okay, that actually sounds like a reasonable distinction to make. I'd agree that'd constitute some new system if that was all there was to it, but I don't think it's fully correct here. The important distinction, I think, is who gets close to the money printer and how.

It comes down to how a self interested actor with access to the money printer will behave. They'll seek to enrich themselves, which means using the printer for their own good. They can't get away with just printing money for themselves, so they have to resort to allocating the printed money to someone with the capacity to reward them. They're unlikely to receive much extra power while maintaining power over the printer, so they'll mostly pursue financial rewards. This means allocating the printed money to people who have the capacity to reward them handsomely. In effect, those who receive the free rewards are those who already have resources free to reward the printer, and they receive those rewards as a direct and exclusive result of the resources they already hold. So ultimately, they're still generating as a result of resources they already own.

This is why I see fiat as simply an augmentation of the powers of the ruling class in whatever system it operates under, NOT a wholly new system. If we lived under a feudal system, the free rewards would all go to royalty and their vassals. If it was idealistic communism (i.e., that wasn't captured by authoritarians, which is very unlikely), it'd be used to secure the needs and wants of the people. None of these radically change the structure of the systems that fiat occurs under, it just bestows additional free rewards to whoever is in the uppermost class 

 I agree that fiat money is the root cause. The solution is simple - bitcoin. there will never be more than 21million. there is no way you can print more.

It sounded a little bit that you are advocating for communism. Let me make one thing clear, i rather life in the current system than in communisim. but the current system can and will be dismanteled by bitcoin. 

 The root cause of what? Again, read carefully, I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying. I never said fiat was the root cause of anything. I said it was an augmentation of the powers of the uppermost class. It takes the nature of the system to the extreme. Bitcoin will help remove those augmented powers, but as I said in the last thread, the ruling class was still very much capable of abusing the hell out of us when they only had hard money.

I don't think it's a cure all. It can help solve a lot of problems, but it won't change human nature and how we leverage power dynamics. This is another of those borderline religious idealizations. Bitcoin is amazing at what it does, but it can't fix *everything*. It can only fix the things that directly stem from the quality of the money. 

 You never said that directly but indirectly. Otherwise I misunderstood you.

Bitcoin has nothing to do with a religion and it will change the way peoples behaviours. Because to enrich yourself, you have to support others.
It might seem unrealstic that bitcoin will fix everything - but once you truly understand it, you realize it does.
I support it so much because I love what god it does for the world. 

 I did not say such indirectly. I explicitly and directly said it simply augmented existing powers.

How do you see bitcoin changing people's behaviors in this way? As I said before, we used to have hard money, and it most certainly did not force people to support others to enrich themselves. We waged wars for profits. We established monopolies. We crushed workers' rights. We enslaved peoples. We destroyed communities. We did all these things under capitalism when we had hard money that transacted primarily in cash. How is bitcoin going to prevent that? 

 Incentves. No one is better than their incentives. To aquire more bitcoin you have to benefit others. Our current system benefits you, if you behave in a bad way. If you behave god in our current system you can't get rich. If saving enriches you, because the money is deflationary, your decision will be different 

 That's like saying to acquire more gold, you have to benefit others. Even if you ignore theft on the basis of the cryptography, it doesn't forbid or discourage exploitive working conditions. It doesn't forbid or discourage using slave labor to produce your goods. It doesn't forbid or discourage dumping toxic waste into ecosystems. It doesn't forbid or discourage wage theft, which is by far the most common form of theft in the US. It doesn't forbid or discourage price gouging, even on critical, life saving goods like medicine, food, or shelter. How is it supposed to encourage mutually beneficial behavior when it can't do anything about these selfish behaviors? 

 Best thing is, research it for your own. I know how it works but it is hard to explain. I did research it my own thats how I got to understand it.

Companies doing this right now can lend new money from the money printer. If there is no moneyprinter and no one buys your stuff, you are bankrupt in a very short time. If you can take credits and credits and credits. You don't need to sell anything. Hard money isn't everything, but at least half of every transaction. I don't know how to explain that to you. But I know how it works, thats why I would recomand to you, to study bitcoin.

Btw. Goverments would also have to act differently, to get money from you, they can't simply seize it. they have to convince you to give it to them. with gold that was different 

 I've been watching bitcoin since before Mt Gox collapsed. Stop telling me to study bitcoin. I've almost certainly been in this space longer than you, which is why I understand both its potential AND its limitations.

Again, companies got by without a money printer for centuries, and it never stopped them from acting extremely selfishly in the past, so removing it isn't suddenly going to make them altruistic. It's just going to bankrupt some of them. The money isn't even free for most of the businesses, it typically goes to banks who loan it out fully expecting to be repaid, and they won't throw bad money after the good forever. You only get free goodies if you don't fuck with another rich guy's profits.

Governments will be forced to act differently, true, but this will mainly be from inability to grow debt forever and, if forced to transact exclusively on chain, transparency. Even just using the lightning network as a government agency threatens the potential transparency gains. Plus, the government can't easily seize it, but they're still quite capable of coercing you to pay up. Again, I agree it will induce positive change, but I think you expect more than we'll get from it. 

 You can be in the space for 1 day or 1 year or 1 decade. has nothing to do with understanding bitcoin.

if you want to think we will have the same problems and refuse to study bitcoin. it is your decison, but then i dont have the time or the will to explain it to you, sorry.

did you know, nobody can spend bitcoin without the private key? so if they kill you, they can't spend it - with gold that is no problem. 

 I think it's primarily the capability to explain it that you lack. And yeah, the world's most advanced supercomputer can't steal your bitcoin, but you're still vulnerable to the old fashioned $5 wrench attack. Or being jailed until you make the payment or give up your keys. Or seizure of physical assets. Or denial of access to benefits or services. Or a dozen other things. It's true the government can't just seize your bitcoin, but they still have the power to make life extremely miserable until you do what they want. 

 Maybe it is my lack. What options do you have with physical money or gold? none, they can take it and kill you - with bitcoin you are dead and thats it. btw. how do you think the goverment is funding that if they don't have anything?