Oddbean

I have had some thoughts regarding God's sovereignty and man's will and guilt. My thoughts were triggered by these posts, starting with my post: https://trustjesus.substack.com/p/fruits-of-the-spirit ### Response to my Post buttercat1791 npub1wqf…cqsyn 19 6/16/24, 9:17 AM View Parent<br> "If there are more signs of bad fruit, we need to consider whether our faith is real and respond accordingly." This may be due to my incomplete understanding of Reformed theology, but it would seem that this statement conflicts with the doctrine of Irresistible Grace. Do you hold to all the points of TULIP? I struggle to wrap my head around how a believer can be said to respond to grace in this or that way, when that grace is said to be irresistible. Maybe you can help me understand the finer points better? — This is a comment on: yakihonne.com/article/naddr1qvzqqqr4gupzprf5h5jryfqv2cm3wj3akxgc0za2rsfn4 ### My quick response LibertyGal npub1356…k805u 50 6/16/24, 10:05 AM<br> Although I have a lot of beliefs in common I don't consider myself part of the reformed theology. I do believe in Irresistible Grace because I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God. I can't deny this absolute sovereignty that is spoken of throughout scripture. I explain it to myself this way (although I admit that I likely don't have perfect understanding. As the creature, we shouldn't expect to fully understand the Creator.) Due to the sin of Adam and Eve, we have a sin nature. That nature causes everyone to reject God. If we could have true, complete faith we would be accepted by Him, but our sin nature makes this impossible. When God "calls" or "elects" a person, He unchains them from their sin nature. Once we are freed from our sin nature, there is no other choice, but to repent and trust Him as Savior because our nature and His nature make it so. I'll admit I am still trying to fully understand His sovereignty and our choice. ### His 2nd Response: buttercat1791 npub1wqf…cqsyn 19 6/16/24, 10:19 AM<br> Why would we think that, unchained from sin nature, there is no other choice but to accept God? Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, but they still freely rejected God. If Christ's redemption redeems and elevates our nature by union with Christ, then would not that raise us to the freedom to love God as Jesus loves God the Father? It would seem to me that, for this love to be freely given, the possibility must exist that this love may be freely refused, as well. ### My initial Thought to answer the question asked I reserve the right to be wrong, but I think the difference between us, when we are freed from our sin nature, and Adam and Eve is that they had never experienced sin and guilt. I used to think it amazing that Adam and Eve were misled so easily. When there is only one rule, "Don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," how hard can that one rule be to obey? Although Adam and Eve were physically adults, they were likely only days old, at most a couple years old. They had never heard a lie before. They didn't know to watch out for a lie anymore than a baby understands that it can fall from a height. Until that first sin, they had no idea what guilt felt like. When they did sin, they hid from God because they fully understood their guilt (We've sinned so often that we become more numb to the guilt). The reason we are driven to repentance and acceptance of God's forgiveness the moment we are freed from our sin nature is because we have felt that guilt and the pain of separation, so we are more grateful for what was done for us. Adam and Eve looked at God's command as something good being withheld from them. We have seen that Jesus humbled himself, came down to Earth, lived the perfect human life that we can't, died to pay the penalty for our sins, and rose from the dead to reign in heaven. We can see how much we dishonored Him and how much He did for us. Once we are freed from our sin nature, how can we do anything other than to submit to him in grateful adoration? ### More thoughts: The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's absolute sovereignty. There is nothing He cannot do and He has the right to make us do what He wants and/or to do with us as He wishes. > 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (Romans 9:14-23) God has the power and the right to make us do His will, to use us as He plans, and to punish us for our actions (whether they are free will or not), but I think the reality is more complicated. For example, in the story of Joseph, his brothers hated him and wanted to kill him, but God had a plan for Joseph, so he put the idea into their heads to sell Joseph instead and made sure the right people were nearby when they had this idea. Rueben wanted to save Joseph and prevent sorrow for his father, but God made him too late returning, so Joseph got sold into slavery. When Potiphar's wife made a pass at Joseph and Joseph refused her and she charged him with assaulting her, it is likely that Potiphar knew his wife and knew things weren't what he was told, but he was embarrassed that his wife would be interested in a Hebrew slave, so Joseph was sent to the Pharaoh's prison (from all of the penalties that could have been given to him), so that Joseph would be there to interpret the butler's dream. The butler was busy, but God made him forget Joseph until the time was right to bring Joseph before Pharaoh to save the people of Egypt, Israel, and beyond. God used what was in their hearts (their guilt) but only allowed them to act on those urges in the way God intended and to further His will. In this way we do get to choose good or evil, but we still act out God's eternal plan according to His will. I'll admit that understanding the perfect balance between God's absolute sovereignty and eternal will with man's choices and resultant guilt is difficult and I am still fine tuning my beliefs because they are not simple like many of God's commands. "Do not commit adultery," "Do not commit murder," and "Go, make disciples." are easy to understand, but the balance between God's will and man's is not so easy. I always try to err on the side of God's absolute sovereignty and figure the rest will work itself out.