Oddbean

Finally, the whole conclusion: I can't stand the illogical leap and forgetfulness of the author! Geez... 1. As a Christian, I think it's one of the basic tenets to believe that we, as believers in Jesus, are granted eternal life. 2. Since we are granted life by the grace of God, and since Peter saw given the type of steward, why is he (Peter) not STILL in that appointed position even now? 🙄 This is one thing that I think the orthobros have got a heck of a lot better handle on than you catholics, even if some of their ideas make me uncomfortable having been raised as a protestant. To summarize and conclude: I think that is logical and likely that Jesus appointed Peter to be the eternal steward of His Church, therefore, the papacy is exactly equivalent to the Kings of Israel, and yes, obviously God can use that system to His own end, it was NOT WHAT HE INTENDED FOR HIS PEOPLE, and, in fact, has brought about many troubles and evils to them and the rest of the world. Yes, I think the catholic church has been a net evil on the world, especially after the infiltration of gnostic and worse occult BS throughout its structure. No, I don't think even most catholics are bad people, I just think that much of their faith is misplaced and very incorrectly acted out. 🤷‍♂️ I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but... Gosh that article is frustrating.

have any orthodox done mushrooms and talked with the saints on their trip? some people talk to Buddha, Jesus, God, the universe, sometimes all of them at once. the idea is that we see the people that we identify with when we are introduced to religion. Are the saints just sharing some of the responsibility. or do all requests need to be channeled through God?

That's certainly understandable and common, as you said. We do not worship planks of wood, nor the saints. To a degree you just have to trust us on that. We don't know what's in the hearts of others so when I say I'm not worshipping this icon there's a necessary degree of trust. We have a clear, defined understanding of what worship is. Praying that a saint intercede before Christ on our behalf isn't it. The Bible itself teaches us to pray for one another. Since we believe in more than this life we believe that the saints aren't dead, but alive in Christ. So why can't they pray for us? Why can't we ask them to pray for us? Certainly we can, and do, go directly to the Lord, but there's no reason to deprive ourselves of intercessory prayer. As for icons, God Himself became fully man. The materiality of icons remind us of that; that Christ wasn't a ghost as the Docetists argued. Please forgive the jumbled thoughts. It's been difficult responding and juggling a toddler

I heave been made aware that you are not worshiping the icons or the saints. I find the orthodox definition of worship (to my knowledge) to be very correct. My issue with praying for the deceased is that they are beyond our reach having been loosed from this mortal coil, too use a cliché. I see them as not involved much in our affairs until heaven and earth are remade when Jesus returns. That's an interesting point that they might pray for us. I honestly hadn't considered that. I'll have to mull that over for a while. It makes me a bit uncomfortable to think about praying to people to intercede. Prayer doesn't seem like it should be directed to anyone but God. LOL! Jumble away. I've spent the morning with my sister and neice. She's not yet two. I get it. 😁 Thank you for responding. I enjoy it. I do have a lot to learn about orthodoxy as I never had much experience with it, though I spent significant time in Lutheran and catholic schools, so I'm most familiar with those sects.

I don't think you're wrong to be cautious when it comes to the direction of your prayer. Personally, I don't think of myself praying TO the saints. All prayer and focus is on God, but that can be directed to Him through His saints. They are saints because of their devotion to Him and it is Him that shines through them. Orthodoxy can be jarring, from my experience, as externally much resembles some of the Western tradition, but those things are quite different internally. A podcast called "Our Life in Christ" from Ancient Faith Radio helped me explore those differences when I was first discovering Orthodoxy a few years ago. It may interest you

I just don't see the point since Jesus came to restore us to the Father and is our intercessor. I don't need to pray to anyone but God drive Jesus did all the hard work. I don't need a priest to sacrifice things for atonement. I don't need the saints who have gone before us to do anything. Why invent a beauracracy (my goodness, I can't ever spell that word) where none is needed? I've been listening to Lord of Spirits and my goodness is that pretty much overwhelming... But ultra-fascinating. Thank you for the recommendation. I may add that to my podcast rotation.

I'll admit I don't have a sufficient counter-argument as it's just never been an issue for me. Priests and structure have just always made sense to me even though I was raised without religion at all. I will say that priests and bishops are a Biblical, New Testament thing, but you know that. And none of us are the body of Christ, but help make up that body. Everyone has their calling and role so it just makes sense to me to have priests. It's useless to have everyone prophesying if there's no one to interpret. Oh boy, you just dove into the deep end, eh? Lol I love Lord of Spirits, but I don't often suggest it. Fr. Stephen has a Bible study called The Whole Counsel of God. I haven't dove into that yet, but what I've heard is good. A few others I like are Search the Scriptures, Symbolic World, The Arena, and, most importantly, The Path. But really, man, I suggest attending a liturgy if you're interested. Vespers is super beautiful, but liturgy is something special