Oddbean

That I don’t know… I don’t really understand everything happened at the client level. What I do understand is that it does, in fact, make the most sense to run your own relay and everyone run their own relay for us to truly have technical decentralization.

It’s a really hard problem for devs because spammers can use AI to create profiles that are practically indistinguishable from regular users. The fake profiles could be filled in complete with avatars, background image, etc. Imagine if every post with hit with 100 replies that you’re pretty sure aren’t real but you don’t know for certain. Spammers will use TOR and VPNs so if relays block those, they’ll harm the privacy of real users. (Eg I’m using TOR right now) Spammers can also target larger accounts or new users for abuse and can also flood your DMs with spam to make that unusable too. It’s a hard problem. No easy solutions. I’m personally in favor of the WoT model with a guided onboarding process for new users to get into the web of trust.

This was a really well thought out response and I appreciate it ☺️ I originally felt that WoT was ideal. Ultimately, I just believe that it should be up to the dev at the client level…. But only because I’m a freedom maxi. Your client app, your creation, your rules. The only reason it impacts decentralization, currently, is because there aren’t enough competing clients. Relays still allow for a decentralized experience… now if all clients coordinated, that is problematic for the network. That’s where it gets tricky for me because I come from places where we have events to reach consensus at a democratic level. But we can always spin up new relays and as nostr scales new clients here. So, it’s very different than most decentralized networks from my understanding.

Seems like this problem was already solved with Adam Back's proof of work. Read is free, but impose a physical cost to write. That cost has to be enough to make spam economically infeasible, but not so drastic as to impact anyone's ability to afford to write. The relay, client, and individual settings dictate the filter level of PoW cost to write. Some experience low or no spam, some experience higher value (more expensive) spam, some experience lots of spam... all based on preference. If the AIs create valuable enough "spam" then users will want to see it and the individuals paying to spam will be able to afford it. For a cost example, one sat per post would mean about $7 per year for 30 posts every day. Just making this up as I go, what are the problems with this strategy?

There’s nothing technically wrong with the strategy. A few things to consider: Spammers can also do PoW so it would slow them down but not stop them completely. Also, they could target specific accounts to focus the abuse. For example, all large accounts or only new users. A lot of people use their phones and PoW could have a deleterious effect on phone batteries. 🪫 It might be better to have the PoW upfront so the “price” is larger but paid once to create the account rather than each time to send a message. Especially if there was a way to quickly blacklist their accounts everywhere. I’m still thinking about a WoT model where new users must be sponsored (followed) by an existing user. The nostr clients offer a few guided options on how to get “into the club”. Some ways of getting sponsored: Attend a meetup / conference / real life and find an existing nostr user. Do a large PoW and send a DM to an existing user. Send a zap to an existing user. Etc.

We didn’t have proof of work… but we had sponsors, that’s how you got in. I got a very early clubhouse invite and it was such an ick vibe. People like thirsted for an invite?? … and then the people inside used it as leverage for control?? for what?? I wasn’t sure… because it was a madhouse environment just to feel like you were listening in on your corporate offices middle management meeting? And this is not the vibes for social media for divine creators… IMO

Great points. I agree it's not perfect, but each user could tune how much they want to slow down spammers vs not see valuable content. I like the upfront PoW cost as a further hurdle and I like the WoT / meet up layers as well. Maybe some of all of it. I suspect there is no silver bullet, but also that real Nostr users who put in the effort and PoW should have better visibility. Interesting about Gel's comment that this can turn into an elite club. Real world example in Club House. It will be fun to see how this evolves.

I offered this solution initially in a previous and that’s how I ended up circling back but what I haven’t got an answer on is… what does PoW require here? Do I need to complete a CAPTCHA or do I need upgraded GPUs? And if so, how is this ever going to take down meta?

“what does PoW require here?” Are you asking about how to technically implement it? Devs would probably need to make protocol changes to attach a hash “proof” with each message. Each proof would have a “difficulty” meaning the computational effort required. Presumably this would be dynamically adjusted over time. Your phone or computer would do this in the background. All you would notice is the delay, the battery consumption, and your phone getting hot. Take down meta? 🤔🤷‍♂️ Does it need to? Personally, I’m happy chatting with a few freedom loving bitcoin maxis. 😊

Love the discussion, thank you! Sorry I wasn't more explicit, but I meant use the Bitcoin network and existing PoW protocol. In other words, every post, like, and repost would require a one or more Satoshi transaction, but imbedded in the protocol, in your client. You can acquire those sats any way you ordinarily get sats... great quality content to earn zaps, buy them, mine, etc.