Oddbean

I get you’re very emotional about this but it doesn’t change the facts. An emoji added is information added. It’s not suppression of free speech. I’m sorry you don’t like the emoji, but please try to use words adequately. It’s not helpful to declare everything censorship. When everyone is Hitler and everywhere is Nazi germany we loose sense of reality in discussions. It’s not helpful.

Being purposely daft about obvious concepts *isn't helpful*. I guess you wouldn't feel censored if the client you use did the following every time you use the word "speech": "IMMVSO I get you're very emotional about this but it doesn't change the facts. An emoji added is information added. It's not suppression of free speech. But I am a fucking moron, who am I kidding?"

We have different opinions about this. Everyone argues about it. So I would go out on a limb here and say that it is not an "obvious concept". 😂 By the way, you can always just use another client. You're not being censored, you're just whining.

It's good to know that you agree that someone adding the sentence "I'm a daft cunt, don't take me seriously" every time you use a period is obviously not censorship and totally fine with you. You seem very smart.

I like steel men so here's mine: both arguments have merit since censor is ambiguous with at least two meanings: 1 - to remove/edit access to information 2 - to suppress intended information propagation which could come in the form pejorative framing without removal However, when information is like water and someone wants filtered water because there are certain things they wish to prevent, it seems more like an expression of personal curation than censorious. If one thinks curation is censorship, then Nostr will not be very fun as it scales. By that metric, not using all information would effectively be censorship and that's not reasonable.

I share your view on this. Just one additional thought: If you think that framing is censorship, that would mean that in order to prevent censorship, you have to change everything that in any way frames the original information. This leads to exponential censorship. We should be vigilant against real attacks, and therefore a little more relaxed if it's not a real attack, imo.

That would be crazy - I'm working on a plugin and realized I don't want to include an npub's followers and just include npubs that the profile follows when traversing profiles. The can of worms that would open should that be called censorship. Moreover, I imagine that would cripple nostr's scalability.

I do not fully understand what that plugin is all about and how it is supposed to function but in general I think it’s hard to predict such second order effects. The crazy thing is that we need filters to perceive reality but every filter is a kind of censorship. So it can’t be about the information flow per se but should focus more on intention and influence. That’s the underlying philosophical conundrum for me: freedom only works long term if it’s total but total freedom basically leads to entropy. Freedom is destructive but vital at the same time.

I'll hopefully have a video of it out soon showing some of my work but the idea I got from https://nosta.me/ which after using for quick profile references to check against my plugin. Definitely agree on freedom and filtering being a requirement to perceive reality.

What are you going on about? This is not a case of a user curating his own feed. What we're talking about here is a dev who wrote a client that manipulates the notes of users, without their permission, to make them say something they are not saying, and most like exactly the opposite of what they're saying. This is clear cut censorship.

I didn't mention users, stop assuming clients must cater to users - it's a dev curating the experience. You don't like it - leave, that's not censorship. The information is accessible elsewhere in the pure form you seek and is directly accessible should you care to run your own relay. That client has a red flag for you but that doesn't give you a bit of authority to dictate to devs how they MUST present information they receive from the network. You don't like that the library may have added checkout slots to the books because it alters the effective published artifact. Go to a different library if it bothers you so much.