Oddbean

If we did that nothing would be released in a timely manner. Most projects are severely resource constrained and so we get what we get. 9 times out of 10, the "good enough" is going to win out against perfection for every platform.

The Nostr protocol actually changes this dynamic because users aren't trapped within a specific app. A higher-quality app can take over the market, even if it arrives much later. "Being first" doesn't offer as much advantage, in an open protocol.

Yes, everyone is still frantically racing to be first, rather than considering that there's a new paradigm. The first project is just defining the second project's new feature, but the second project can build it better by reverse-engineering the first one.

Everybody is just releasing what already exist and is already done outside nostr and backed with unlimited resources and expecting to compete, nostr devs need to focus on building more novel things that change the way we do things and can only be built on nostr, if this is done there will be more tolerance for this subpar experience. Funny how they can't see the primal casestudy as much bad rap as primal got for caching data earlier, it has proven that anybody with more resouces aligned around improving ux will take all the users from other clients since they all have the same content, being an open protocol one day it could be those big orgs we despise.

I agree, but I also don't think it's fair or feasible to expect script kiddies and afterwork hackers to setup and maintain the infrastructure and personnel required to create, test, support, and maintain something of production quality. The good news is that such infrastructure scales extremely well, so they can just use someone else's. You don't need 20 build servers. You need one, with 20 jobs running on it. You don't need 20 beta test teams. You need one, with 20 people on it. You don't need 20 websites. You need one, with 20 subdomains. You don't need 20 analysts. You need one, who can advise on 20 projects per year. You don't need 20 product owners. You need one, planning out a roadmap for 20 implementations. And etc.

No, that's not how it works. The quality difference comes mostly from setting up a proper architecture and pipeline, at the beginning. There's an initial delay, and then you can release more, faster. The people who were done first have usually skipped that part because they're in a rush, it's tedious and difficult, and you often need to recruit specialists for the different tasks. The payout doesn't come until the *next* project, or even the *one after next* when the infrastructure and team is already there and you hit the ground running at high speed, without sacrificing quality. It's an investment.

Exactly. App is simply short for "application". And this concept exists for protocols too. Nostr itself is an application for JSON, TLS and WebSocket protocols. TLS and WebSocket protocols are applications for TCP. TCP is an application for IP. See what I'm getting to? Too many nested applications, don't you think?

All end-user applications are nested. Nostr is not necessarily an additional layer because we would be using some other structure, instead. Modern programming languages are also often nested, so that adds layers in the other direction. Dealing with this complexity and making it invisible to the user is why we have tight development pipelines.

I firmly believe that there will be no real breakthrough until we invent (or accept) something to abolish complexity instead of hiding it under multiple abstraction layers so that we could more of it unnoticed. Here's an example. Although I'm not a guru in Lisp and certainly not in Forth, I like early Forth and even earlier Lisp systems for being self-sufficient. Because your early Lisp/Forth IDE doesn't run on top of an operating system, it *is* an operating system. You have less layers and tighter integration, less space to plant bugs or backdoors. Here's what I'm talking about: https://www.exemark.com/FORTH/eForthOverviewv5.pdf They described an implementation on top of an early DOS, but the same could easily have been done over bare metal.

I work in embedded systems, but that is a different environment. The complexity for end user systems remains, even if you collapse the layers. You would have to create a new sort of system, that required less complexity. Which is a tall order.

Why? Whatever happened to Spectrums, Amstrads, Commodores, incl. C64 and Amigas? Where I live, people *soldered* Spectrum clones themselves as soon as they got access to the necessary chips and other stuff. And booted them off cassette recorders. And did all sorts of shit on that bootleg hardware. Because it's not as complex at its core. I'm not a programmer now (was until 2016) and I didn't have any Spectrum clone, but I first started learning programming on MK-52, a soviet programmable calculator. Still have it here in a pretty much working state (but MK-61 is more practical if running on batteries). So, do you know how many program RAM it has? 105 bytes (yes, bytes) and 15 direct registers and 4 stack registers, and that's it. It also had 512-byte EPROM, but it went dead about 10 years ago. My call is to treat every system like embedded and optimize every byte accordingly. Those who disagree should be sentenced to 2 years of MK-52-only coding like myself in the childhood.

Perhaps I also didn't make myself clear enough about one more aspect. Even with store-bought Speccies, people could repair them themselves. Maybe replace a chip or a capacitor or a resistor or a transistor. It was as opensource as it could get. x86 came with modularity, but the overall architecture already was much more complex _and_ individual components could not be just repaired at home anymore. Corporations took the monopoly over these things. They told people didn't need it. And now, people are being fed with monolith touchscreen bricks with zero repairability (+ all-on spyware) and they don't ask any questions why. The software side of things is even worse, but remember it started when IBM+M$ mafia took over.

I'm not the one you have to convince. I'm in embedded, my husband is a telco electrician and an EE M.Sc., my BIL is a mechatroniker, my father is a network engineer, and my son is studying Mech Eng. Our entire basement looks like an electro workshop, replete with an old washing machine, ancient cell phones and old monitors, homemade robots, soldering station, and a particle accelerator. 😂 We could open a museum. I'm just saying, don't fight the market.

Sometimes I dream that I could someday launch a zeppelin with pirate NMT and AMPS base stations to put all those ancient phones to work again (I hope you don't consider any GSM phone ancient, even Ericsson GH172 Hotline, which I have two of them... but no, I'm not that old, I got my first own GSM phone in 2005, and it was Nokia 3100 from 2003), and "Pirate Zeppelin" actually is my poet alias. I'm just saying, there should be some ways to transform this market. Even if it requires a major shakeup for people to wake up.