Oddbean new post about login | logout Okay so you want the blockchain to have completely confidential transactions with no way of verifying the supply. Just trust the “cryptographic primitives” are correct bro. They will never have an inflation bug. Makes sense 🤡
For one, Im willing to bet you have NEVER personally verified the BTC supply and just trust someone elses code to do it And two, it's possible to mathematically prove that something is so, WITHOUT actually revealing what the factors are. Like we can prove that the sum of the inputs and outputs of a tx are zero. Without showing the amounts.
How do you prove that the sum of the inputs and outputs of a tx are zero?
cryptographic primitives in this case, range proofs. https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/430
Give a simpler explanation. If you want people to adopt monero or if you want bitcoin to add this to the base layer, you’re going to have to convince the nodes in a simpler way. https://video.nostr.build/95ccace291ed11b0cfa946bd3b4d6cd1ec8d33c9b38417f442ccad19110f5c46.mp4
Dude let's not pretend you or any bitcoiner combed thru a billion+ bitcoin transactions and made sure all input/outputs were good. You don't do that to all new transactions every ten minutes either. You just run a node and pay zero attention like any Monero user "But bro three people on the planet actually do that" So now you're trusting others to do it for you and be honest if they find it and not exploit it? What was the point of running a node then? Yall make no sense
In the beginning I’ve done that with my own transactions and looked through random ones in the mempool. After seeing it reliable, I stopped. However. I can’t do that with monero and the fact that the monero website itself claims that supply soundness is compromised in order to provide better privacy says a lot.
"I trust bitcoin because it's transparent and don't understand math" i think we can safely disregard your opinion.
🥱 the opinion that matters most https://image.nostr.build/80e5082c7ae61d99e99db85a29b351df75faac6dbce83a475e431f5297499178.jpg
You can always tell when a maxi has lost all actual fact-based argument. Because they pull out a fiat chart of relative speculative value as if it was meaningful.
If you’re going to commit logical fallacies (e.g. move the goalposts and straw man) then I’m just going to share the objective math that matters most.
I have not moved any goalposts. Just continued to call out your obvious inconsistencies. You are the one changing the subject, not I.
You’re a clown. The original post was about Snowden asking for more privacy on the base layer. I said that this won’t happen because a transparent blockchain allows for supply soundness. You argued something about zero proofs and other cryptographic shit. It’s irrelevant. You either disprove my claim or drop it. And since monero can’t even guarantee supply soundness with this same technology that you’d like to have on Bitcoin, then your arguments are pointless. All that’s left for you to do is hard fork of Bitcoin with these zero proof concepts or stfu.
You're too much of a moron to understand what either I or Snowden are talking about. Or how moneros cryptographic security is *at-least* as reliable as cryptographic assumptions you are ALREADY trusting. have fun staying ignorant.
MAHDOOD the type of guy that praises Bitcoins decentralized ledger, then constantly posts centralized ledger price charts MAHDOOD the type of guy that says he loves Bitcoins simple transparent auditability, but never takes advantage of it MAHDOOD the type of guy that says things like "the market is always right" and "network effects" when referring to Bitcoin, but then tells you why it's wrong and can't explain Monero Darknet adoption MAHDOOD the type of guy that talks about anonymity sets and hiding in large crowds, but then uses a transparent and pseudonymous blockchain MAHDOOD the type of guy that talks about Bitcoin being permissionless digital cash, but then brings up permissioned white market transactions and CEX volume
In other words you havent made sure all Bitcoin transactions work out and that it's supply is sound An advantage you don't take advantage of is hardly an advantage
Do you have evidence that the Bitcoin supply isn’t 21 million?
The onus is on you to prove it does because you are claiming it does (you want us to prove a negative) This is logic 101
Actual personal responsibility and self sovereignty requires effort.
Ill see if I can find a braindead explanation of rangeproofs or Pedersen commitments. In the meantime here's the wikipedia on commitment schemes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commitment_scheme
Effort is one thing. But an engineering background is something totally different. Especially when others with engineering backgrounds are also not convinced
If only maxis were so demanding when it comes to auditing the gettxsetoutinfo function.... 😥 It is good to be intellectually consistent.
Yes it’s good to be intellectually consistent. Supply soundness was the tradeoff bitcoin went with and is the reason bitcoin is winning. The monero team clearly knows they have supply soundness risks. https://image.nostr.build/330d0930ddc837e108141f42adfe562f289912b1c186acc88fceec1470846117.jpg
Nobody is arguing that napkin math isnt a sounder guarantee. But it is intellectually inconsistent to bitch about ZK proofs when you are ALREADY trusting cryptographic primitives that are more complex.
That would be intellectually inconsistent except I never complained about zk proofs. I don’t even know what that is lmao all I’ve said so far is that I’ve seen my tx inputs and outputs balance out. I have firsthand experience of supply soundness in Bitcoin with my transactions. Anyone could also just do a simple sum of all the addresses in bitcoin at any time. I can’t do that with monero. There is no need to check every single transaction when you can just sum the total supply at any given moment. So @whoeverlovesDigit is not technically wrong when he says that monero zero proofs or whatever requires you to trust that it works. And you can argue that other cryptographic properties in bitcoin require trust too. And that’s correct but that trust is not built on my understanding of complex software. It’s built on time and actual firsthand experience. I understand how they work and trust it because it has earned my trust. No amount of firsthand experience can change the supply soundness flaw in monero. And average sheeple are not going to magically start giving a shit about their privacy anytime soon. So I’ll take the supply soundness and practice privacy using tools like pay join and ecash.
you're proving my point nostr:nevent1qqsp00g66jame0tgt4tl30f0l8apsmsd6vceh2k34kplp3ajqepfjwcpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgs0npwnpyvheqz7zuvuwvv9k460c0hyqlturds40hhfn34vufvehwcrqsqqqqqp2gasdm
Moving the goalposts. Neither you nor monero devs can guarantee supply soundness. That makes monero a shitcoin HFSP 🫡
By the EXACT same logic you cant trust ECDSA to ensure that only your private keys can spend your utxos. But you do. Your whole argument is just "I trust Team Bitcoin when they say ECDSA is secure. But I don't trust Team Monero when they say range proofs are secure. I don't DYOR. I don't verify. I just follow the prevalent groupthink of the team I like." Frankly, you're a sorryass Bitcoiner.
WRONG. I trust that private keys work because I’ve literally used them to spend. But you keep moving the goalposts lmao prove that the monero supply is sound first. Frankly you can HFSP 🫡
<sigh> lol ok You have no evidence your private key is the only key that can spend a utxo. This property of bitcoin depends on the ECDSA encryption it uses being mathematically sound and the implementation being correctly coded YOU *TRUST* THE BITCOIN COMMUNITY WHEN THEY TELL YOU THIS IS SO. YOU ARE ALREADY RELYING ON CRYPTOGRAPHIC PRIMITIVES YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. YOU JUST REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.
Do you have any evidence that a different private key can spend my utxos? All you’re doing is talking in abstract theoretical “what ifs.” But it’s just unproductive mental masturbation. Provide evidence that monero’s supply is sound. If you can’t, then that is the main reason why bitcoin is winning against monero. Adding zero proofs or whatever you call it to bitcoin would jeopardize supply soundness.
if you dont have the ability to actually reflect on your fundamental assumptions you are a waste of time. point is you demand proof from me, but trust other "maxis." WITHOUT understanding or DYOR on *either* of the cryptographic primitives involved. it is intellectually inconsistent and you arent a cypherpunk or a true bitcoiner. just a team player unwilling to make the effort of critical thinking. have a nice day.
Its perfectly normal to place trust in 3rd parties. nobody has the time to become an expert in everything and then personally audit all this stuff. A big part of learning is ADMITTING WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW. Its fine (ie, reasonable to me) to *trust* the ECDSA implementation in bitcoin. Obviously I do it too. But it's retarted to trust ECDSA (without reflection or understanding) but then refuse to examine *other* well-established cryptographic primitives. because reasons. usually those reasons are "Team Bitcoin doesn't approve of those specific cryptographic primitives and Im a good team player. Look at my cool laser eyes." You don't understand Pedersen commitments or know what zero-knowledge proofs are? You don't trust me when I say their probably *at-least* as reliable as the ECDSA sceme you're ALREADY trusting? Fine, just say "i don't know or care and Im not going to look into it." At least that's intellectually honest. Or just "I'm a moron and I trust what a block explorer tells me." Everybody has to eventually place trust somewhere. But that doesn't mean you should shave your head and join the cult. The absolute state of the bitcoin community smdh nostr:nevent1qqs0epwyq05e9sscd35pawyct5dys8znnu2qa96pnm9fh308e07hnrgpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsytuv4el7t3jtjfm7zfrc9q730ked40806he7dx5uctxqk8j4hvfcrqsqqqqqppjaywt
I already asked you to explain these things to me and all you’ve done is send me a long 15 page pdf that I’m not going to understand or bother reading. If you understand the concept, you can explain it in a simple manner. But even if you can’t explain it, the least you can do is provide evidence that these solutions will not jeopardize supply soundness. If the monero team admits that supply soundness is the tradeoff necessary for confidential transactions, then why the fuck would I believe your baseless claims? Lmao If you have the solution then fork Bitcoin or STFU.
"Muh reading comprehension gud" https://image.nostr.build/a66cbb34a24442a01df4e81ce4387399045859de3f4c96b7afeec1ae08966294.jpg nostr:nevent1qqsxjc7ht0k26pct56zs2j49hm4aetudqys53egvd5e7nna4q959naqpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsytuv4el7t3jtjfm7zfrc9q730ked40806he7dx5uctxqk8j4hvfcrqsqqqqqpxlsld4
you'd think, if you were actually interested, that when told "we offload supply soundness guarantees to the correctness of proof and signature constructions" you would think "Oh, in this case, I should learn about the proofs and decide if I think they are trustworthy." instead maxis will just be "nah, I'll just spread FUD I heard somewhere and pretend it must be correct." never mind they're ALREADY trusting *other* proof constructions without understanding them. literally insane.
Lmao it literally says if you want 100% guarantee of supply then you need a transparent blockchain. Fork bitcoin and have fun staying poor retard 🫡
And you TRUST someone elses code to verify your supply for you retard. despite it being a transparent asset. you're just too much of an idiot to realize you ALSO don't have 100% guarantee of supply
Where is the evidence? All your claims are baseless. Can you provide evidence that Bitcoin’s supply is more than 21 million? You’re making a false equivalence related to trust. Just because I trust my node doesn’t mean I should trust your shitcoin zero proof math. Especially when it can’t guarantee supply soundness. You clearly can’t prove that I’m wrong with actual evidence. So instead you just move the goalposts. I will be muting you now, enjoy your shitcoin. https://image.nostr.build/7ab12626097a042a49b4b706eb6c0cbd89f55ab9e63ef174876e1c0b0d3400d5.jpg
bitcoin-cli gettxoutsetinfo is so challenging, sometimes I forget the shortcuts for copypasta
