Oddbean

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 People can and should work together, then they should divide the output according to anegotiations before. Renting a human is as wrong as owning one.

If a child offered to shovel your driveway you should negotiate the price for the whole job. You SHOULD NOT pay him according to how long it takes. That would be renting a human, which would be slavery.

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 But if you don't know how to price the whole job, an hourly wage is less risk! If you price a whole job wrong you could lose money, or at least end up earning less than you would at an hourly rate.

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 sounds like a learning experience

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 You can just as easliy learn what to charge by pricing things at an hourly rate & making others buy materials until you get a handle on how to predict such things. Micro managing the sort of business relationships people can enter into is ridiculous.

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 So? I fail to see how is the risk assessment an argument against.

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 So you want to control with force how people contract with one another in a way that will put the less experienced people at a disadvantage?

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 This is why "well intentioned" planners always make life harder for everyone. You are somehow very detatched from reality.

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 Thank you for at least calling me well intentioned. This is an improvement.

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 Lol, don't thank me too much. I think most of the worst atrocities in human history were rooted in good intentions that ultimately became a deadly effort to refuse to accept being wrong or to give up power.

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 Straw man argument. You change well intentioned people to liars within 7 words. They can't be both.

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 Who said anything about force? I would never want to control anyone with force unless in defence. I'm an anarchist.

The less experienced ones can be mentored by an individual or a group.

If you wanted to be an apprentice lineman then I, as a journeyman lineman, could bring you into the fold in a 4 man crew. 2 journeymen, an equipment operator and an apprentice is a typical crew. Well we could say all income could be divided like journeymen take 30% each, equipment operator takes 20% and you the apprentice could take 20%. Or whatever is negotiated beforehand. This way everyone knows all the values and costs. The pay for the work is not secret. No secrets.

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 You are free to organize your own work crews however you please. Others may not be interested. Bitcoin & Lightning potentially make it possible to be paid by the minute. There are lots of reasons people might prefer that.

Slavery is force & coercion & should be opposed by force. Saying that hourly wages are a form of slavery or that "renting people" is slavery would suggest you believe they should be opposed by force.

If you want things to be voluntary then you advocate an anarcho-capitalist world whether you like it or not.

I could see socialists making the argument that your effort to place % based valuations of people creates an inhumane sort of heirarchy too. Your distinction between what you imagine as some sort of ideal & the wage rates that people agree to is completely arbitrary.

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 Its not arbitrary because the wage system enables the payer to keep the financials secret. If the inputs and outputs are divided then the whole balance sheet must be transparent. Withholding and omitting knowledge is shady as well.

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 Anyway, I'm tired. I'm turning my phone off. Here's a parting picture of me.

https://image.nostr.build/5352f7d4ed0082dd4127d9217f719bd0b766c6f6e7b5e7bc59d8c3f6f9acfa19.jpg

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 ... And its funny but my Murray and yours knew eachother. Below is an article talking about how yours kicked mine out of his living room in the 1970s.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/bookchin-rothbard-anarcho-capitalism/

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 If we create an environment where anyone can start a business (or work to solve some problem in an economically sustainable fashion) without paying anyone else for permission, then we create a world were anyone who wants work has more options. Then arrangements where people are more open about all financial arrangements might out compete everything else. So long as the threat of taxation exists it might be necessary for most dealings to be private though.