Well how is the problem of crypto -> fiat unique to Monero? Same thing would apply to any crypto even Bitcoin, but it's even worse traceability wise. Isn't the ultimate goal to eventually use crypto *directly* anyway?

Even so, it is easy to send cash fairly anonymously by mail if you are familiar with these things (no return address or fake one). Most crypto ATMs also only require an email or phone number (you can use burners for both look at my profile link). Even if you use payment apps they don't see the other side of the transaction. They have no clue why you are getting sent money (and no red flags will trigger as long as it isn't a ridiculous amount at once). But this is all tangential to using crypto directly anyway and not a unique problem to Monero.

What will you do when the state says you can't use Bitcoin unless you take on burdensome taxes (already kind of this way)? Or that you have to use Bitcoin with an "approved" custodian (IOUs will allow them to manipulate supply for their citizens)? Or that it is illegal to use, period (for whatever bogus reason)? You've done nothing different, but now are in black market territory because some lizards in DC wrote some words on paper. I would argue that Bitcoiners are already "rebels" in the states eyes by the mere act of being a Bitcoin user, just look at their increasingly hostile actions against crypto in general, but the law is just slowly catching up to reflect that.

I don't really mind that Bitcoin declares itself the "best SoV" or "hardest money" and don't think Monero is competition with that. Monero is just trying to be p2p digital *cash*. A means to transfer value cheaply, anonymously, privately, and without permission.

Again, I don't mean this as an insult, but your vision that the state is just going to roll over for Bitcoin and let it usurp fiat seems naive to me. Nations could use it as a reserve currency amongst themselves, but there is no way they will let their own citizens use Bitcoin in an unrestricted uncontrolled way that doesn't give them the advantage. That is completely ahistorical. You should always assume the worst case and build around that not hope this utopia will just emerge from Bitcoin. I could argue you are ushering in a financial panopticon for our descendants.

The cypherpunk origins of Bitcoin are more tightly aligned with Monero, so this "trying to hide" stuff as if it is some foreign idea is nonsense. Private, anonymous, untraceable digital cash was the goal:

nevent1qqsq0wvj296nng95kwpw7p9trkt7uqvw97vgzqjal86tmrj46da2ujgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqs3jmj9t


https://monerica.com/
https://moneromarket.io/
https://pb.envs.net/?ba387faecf28694d#7KYF4nYbmTbPiptZUYWyV7WCpyXbBVAVH7SP8TjLYaLM


Monero is as close to untraceable as crypto gets. Amounts and addresses are not visible on it's blockchain. As long as you don't do stupid 101 shit like publically post private transaction info, or constantly go in and out of exchanges or other transparent crypto. But that is all external to it.


Even with your own lightning node, your receiver privacy on lightning sucks and any channel opens/closes leak data on chain. But none of that applies to most users since they are on LSPs or custodial wallets so have much less privacy.

"Bitcoin" and the word "adapt" shouldnt be in the same sentence. It very rarely upgrades if ever.


Ótimo, 1% dos utilizadores de Bitcoin saberão como ter uma privacidade de merda 🥳


É ingénuo, meu amigo

https://x.com/mikehassard/status/1767596230299824555?s=20
https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/


I just hope those higher layers are always in a self-custodial and permissionless direction or Bitcoin loses it's main value props


Agree that average person should be able to save without debasement

Second part, the perspective I see from privacy-coin advocates is more "Find me if you can" "You can't enforce violence on something you don't know happened". I don't think Bitcoin or Monero can do anything about state-controlled markets (white markets). They are black market by design (permissionless markets)

On a spectrum I see Bitcoin as far toward adversarial-thinking anti-state violence side, but Monero as even more so (as it doesn't even take privacy and anonymity for granted that an enemy can use against you)

All throughout history rebels and guerillas used subversion and hiding to their advantage. You don't attack a more powerful enemy toe-to-toe unless you want to be crushed.

I'm not sure why you cant see any honest motivation for "privacy coin" advocates. It is easy for me to see that most BTC maxis have good intentions even if I may disagree on a lot.

As for the anonymity set comment, I'm not sure if you understand how Monero works. Any transaction I send on Monero, thanks to stealth addresses, the anon set is literally any user on the network it couldve gone to. There is no way to know who. And amounts are completely invisible. Your anon set jab may be towards sender-side anonymity which is "only" a ring of 16 *per transaction*. This exponentially increases every "hop". 16^N, N being the number of transactions. At two hops from the original you're already 1 of ~4,096 (00.02% chance of guessing sender). But even if this is not good enough for you FCMPs (Full Chain Membership Prooofs) are being worked on to further increase sender privacy to match receiver privacy (Everyone on the entire chain will soon be your anon set).

It's quite funny how many Bitcoiners I interact with bring up this "deficient anonymity set" while by default they're on a chain that 100% deterministically shows sender, and doesn't hide amounts or addresses. Bitcoin anon set is quite exaggerated in practice as well. All of Bitcoin is not your anon set. Only a tiny fraction of Bitcoiners even coinjoin to begin with (much less coinjoin every transaction). Your coinjoin peers also make mistakes that decrease your coinjoin anon set over time as well and that is out of your control.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


What I'm saying is if your contention is that smaller bitcoin = more decentralized and sovereign for users, why not push for 1 KB? 0.25MB? 1 MB seems so arbitrary.

Ok, I'll assume what you say is true about 50MB, but why are 8MB blocks not acceptable? Even assuming zero consumer tech advances over that time 30TB is not that much...you can find 10TB for like ~$50 right now without even digging hard. What is the true bottleneck, bandwidth? Then why not base blocksize off that? A standard deviation or two below the average global internet bandwidth? (spitballing but u get the idea)

It's been a decade and a half and the blocksize has only functionally increased 2x while fees have skyrocketed under any modest demand. That's why other blockchains like Litecoin have absorbed users. BTC may be a SoV for the moment, but people will find substitutes for transacting.

I've recently seen someone describe Bitcoin as a concept that I liked. BTC is the most popular iteration of it atm. But it's like an organism evolving and speciating finding different niches (i.e. BCH, LTC, etc). Bitcoin will never fail, but any individual species might.

So, maybe you're right, it is better that BTC carry on this experimentation path as the most conservative version of Bitcoin.


Yes. Not that any of use could stop them even if I said no.


Merely saving doesn't generate profit. You have to put that saving to work by buying capital with it being productive and creating things people want.

You think the state will play fair and allow Bitcoin to usurp fiat on their completely controlled and cucked white markets? You think the state surveilling your transactions will have zero consequences for you? Look at the encroaching regulations being pushed versus ten years ago.

Both are insanely naive. Yes, ***nations*** will use Bitcoin as a reserve currency, but you think they're going to let you peons use it with no heavy restrictions or custodians on their white markets?? 😂 sweet summer child. Privacy and anonymity is the only asymmetric advantage you have.

Stay mad surveillance coin fedboi. Reality doesn't change just because youre enamored by a digital ledger.


Testing #bitcoin #Silentpayments on @cakewallet.  First wallet ever to implement it.


The main use case is transferring value without permission. The whole world doesn't need to use to for it to be valuable. The whole world doesn't use Honda cars, but people still find them valuable and use them right?


I think Giga blocks are dumb, but also think the same of small blocks.

They just eventually centralize it from a different angle. Less and less will run a node if they can't afford to transact on it. Only a wealthy cabal will be able to eventually transact on chain and be sovereign.

Are you for no blocksize increase ever? If small blocks are always good why not even smaller blocks? 1 KB blocks should be even more decentralized right?

There is a conservative blocksize range that is reasonable for the current level of tech.


They can make it temporarily more difficult in some places, but I don't think it can be stopped. Look at p2p torrents. Much less private and anonymous but still couldn't be stopped. And they tried hard.


Then we agree I think.

But Monero is much more private and anonymous than Liquid or Lightning. Liquid doesn't hide sender or receiver (only amounts) and is also custodial. Lightning has bad receiver privacy and doesn't have to be custodial but most uses it with permission (LSPs) or custodially so have even less privacy.


Yes, but you can say that about Bitcoin or any other crypto too.

There is always a way to get around it though. Tor, VPNs, etc
In extreme cases look into steganography

People even use crypto from inside China and bypass the governments internet firewall they have there to access the wider internet


Just holding money shouldn't give you "profit" if you are a true capitalist. You are not being more productive or offering others anything useful just because you sit on money. I can also voluntarily forgo profit if I want. We are not 24/7 profit robots.

Bitcoin is helping usher in a total surveillance monetary system for the state (CBDC lite) so let's chill on the accusations


NPCs say they do not need privacy
because they have nothing to hide

https://void.cat/d/12FYuhvVJDRf7as2QVarF2.webp


Even if true it says worst *money* not cash

The whole point is p2p electronic *cash*

According to Greshams law Bitcoin will never be used over the crypto. The incentive is to hoard it made worse because it is expensive to transact, non-private, and non-fungible Bitcoin makes for a much worse digital cash than Monero.


Before calling Monero a shitcoin ask yourself why in the stateless internet (Deep/Darkweb) there are more vendors accepting Monero than Bitcoin!

Bitcoin is better for savings, but for spending Monero is far better than Bitcoin my friends!


No amounts or addresses are visible on it's blockchain. Next to impossible to trace if used correctly versus almost every other crypto.

Mining is also much stealthier. You can mine on any general purpose CPU as opposed to noisy, hot, energy-hungry ASICs that only have one obvious purpose (bitcoin mining)

You're also protected from targeted miner censorship since all transactions look the same.


"Spam Wave on Monero: The Black Marble Attack"

https://bitcoinblog.de/2024/04/04/spam-welle-auf-monero-der-angriff-des-schwarzen-marmors/


Looks like someone has started working on it recently if you scroll down to the latest comments

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/31-001m-nostr-client-for-monero


Yes, but you have to do it a certain way just keep in mind

nevent1qqsgl54px4n2f7x28m2f6778tg8l8tk2v3gqmw2h2e6dhk2f4qyumqgzyzhhgrge3w4m33ac959ywx8tx49m8a40n2vx8xu96jju7ym3e2ag2qcyqqqqqqgyzahja


Monero has a free and open market for transactions fees as well, dummy. The only difference is you have an arbitrary fixed blocksize (fun fact: Monero blocksize is smaller than Bitcoin atm ~0.3 MB). With more adoption your transaction fees are going to price out 99% of the world from being sovereign on chain. Monero has less annual inflation than gold chill out.

1. Choose the better p2p electronic cash (read the title of the whitepaper): Monero
2. Coinjoins don't give you privacy it's obfuscation; nothing is hidden. Liquid (trash privacy and custodial - only hides amounts and virtually zero anon set), Cashu and Fedimint are really good privacy but custodial (you love your intermediaries huh?)
3. Yes, use second layer solutions and give up your permissionlessness or custody. Great solutions for Bitcoin 🤪

If you are Monero-shy you can continue saving with Bitcoin and just use Monero for transactions where you can. So even if you believe everything he said it has no effect on you.


What does that have to do with your articles you were bragging about?


Notice he couldn't deliver the articles. Just deflected with a meme.


Do you know the difference between anonymity and privacy? You brought up privacy earlier not anonymity.

Monero anonymity set is small compared to what? 99% of Bitcoin users don't coinjoin, let alone every transaction, so where is your anon set? Bitcoin isn't even technically anonymous it's psuedonymous. While every single transaction on Monero increases your anon set. With stealth address any transaction sent could've been received by any Monero user ever. How is that for anon set?

I find it funny. You're desperately grasping while ignoring the transparent Bitcoin elephant in the room. It's like a naked person yelling at someone that is fully clothed to put on some gloves and have some decency.

The supply stuff is irrelevant to anything I said. Funny enough the Monero blockchain is still a small fraction of Bitcoins and also has less yearly inflation than Bitcoin.


You have no clue what your are talking about.

Show me any article that shows Monero amounts or addresses have been exploited. Show me any article where someone was prosecuted directly because of a flaw in Monero (not something external like linking personal info, being on exchanges, or hopping in and out of transparent crypto like Bitcoin, etc)

Monero is private. Amounts and addresses are fully encrypted via Confidential Transactions and Stealth Addresses. Amount commitments are perfectly blinding.

Notice the big "if" in your statement.

Dude my dog takes unique shits. Limited supply, no other shits like his. They are super valuable becuz of this according to you so I'll sell you them.

Btw are you going to take your own advice and stop arguing with us? 😂


Then you can look further into it and see that they have all been because of things external to Monero (trading on exchanges, giving personal info, swapping in/out of other transparent crypto like bitcoin, etc)

Next MAHDOOD will start talking about ring signatures, but leave out that this only ever applied to senders (amounts and receivers are encrypted so are impossible to see and remain unaffected) and has never been deterministic only an increase in probability of finding the true spender.

Then he will go back to using a blockchain that 100% deterministically tells you senders by default, and doesn't hide amounts or receivers and not see the irony.


has been weaponized*

https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/


oof, worse if you're an expensive to use digital cash with no fungibility and no privacy. Miners can target individual transactions to censor. Wouldn't be possible to do that if Bitcoin was private.

Fixed supply alone doesn't give anything value

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy


naive take

bitcoins traceability will be weaponized against users by "them"


You're wasting your time arguing about it right now, dumbass 😂


Yea that's a legit way to anonymize, but depends how you do it. If you just swap BTC -> XMR then XMR ->BTC on the same exchange that is worse than coinjoining and trivial to know it's the same person.

Better to do the swaps p2p with different peers, or at least do it with different exchanges. Swap back different amounts. Don't swap it all back in one shot. Wait some time before swapping back. Hours to days. Do behind Tor or at least a decent VPN like Mullvad or IVPN.


TIL...
-Dero uses ring signatures for both sender AND receiver
-Their encryption for amounts is not perfectly blinding so not quantum resistant
-They don't have Full Homomorphic Encryption as their proponents otherwise advertise

It's a worse Monero in almost every way.
Kind of suspected the whole FHE stuff was hype, but didn't think it was this bad.

https://gist.github.com/kayabaNerve/d1b20f48f0d54f8d1beccf74de13e940


Read about Kayabanerves FCMP proposal for the Monero Seraphis update here.

https://gist.github.com/kayabaNerve/0e1f7719e5797c826b87249f21ab6f86


So now you care what Forbes has to say?

Whoever wrote this article hasnt a clue. They think Monero is a "hard fork" of Bitcoin.

lmao


Every transaction that anyone makes on Bitcoin is visible by any government on the planet. Was kind of joking, but also not.


It's an agorist gf not a surveillance state gf


Same


Lightning only works well if you're on custodial wallets


8sat/vbit is almost $1 which can be fairly high depending on the value of transaction, frequency you transact, and where you live. Maybe no need to raise the blocksize right now, but eventually I don't see a way around it unless something changes (maybe CTV or Drivechains?). Even a few months ago when fees were high many were already complaining (rightfully so)

Another problem is that the higher the fees climb the higher the dust threshold...any UTXO value below the threshold will now be gone practically speaking (the value is equal to or less than the fee).

 Are many bitcoin users taking advantage of even running a node? It would be interesting to know the rough number of total bitcoin users VS number of bitcoin node runners. I'm sure the percentage of bitcoiners using their own nodes is much lower than one would think.


I can honestly understand why some give up or get pessimistic about Bitcoin. The ossificationists and NGU chart bois are rampant.

The only thing that seems somewhat promising is CTV and Drivechains. But the general community seems hostile or at least tepid about it thanks to the smear campaign by core & company.


Not sure what you mean about "no way to have privacy in transactions". Monero already does that along with several other smaller privacy coins and even ecash.

Agree with basically everything you said. Everyone is crypto is just gambling and trying to get fiat rich for the most part. Even most Bitcoin maxis are really fiat maxis in disguise. They're hoping price pumps to sell for fiat and are obsessed about fiat price to the detriment of all else.

Yes, USDT on Tron and in general is massive. Most in this echo chamber have no clue or are in denial about it.


If there is a risk that it never will scale non-custodially why shouldn't there be a plan B, C, and D available?

No one said anything about giving up. People will always start alternate projects. The birth of Bitcoin itself was an alternate project from ones before it.


I tried watching with english subtitles but none available 😅

Quick summary?


Roger Ver Derangement Syndrome is real, careful


It’s hard to tell if Roger Ver is a scammer, or a victim of many scams. Perhaps he is the most malicious liar in Bitcoin history.

I don’t really care. He says everyone should hold their own keys, privacy is important, and Bitcoin can destroy the central banks.

This is the message of Bitcoin. If Roger is using this message to scam shitcoiners, I don’t care. The message is far more important than the messenger.

Michael Saylor does not like this message. His message is that Bitcoin needs to separate itself from the cypherpunks.

The big blockers were right about one thing. Big blocks are far less centralizing than KYC custodial lightning.

Listen to nostr:npub12qz56plzehejkyp4waaannmnny4y4c30j8q55a3wlk49haslga2snypdx8 interview Roger and decide for yourself. Maybe you hate cypherpunks too. Whatever, Bitcoin is for enemies. When we have drivechains, everyone will come back to the real Bitcoin anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/live/DMxx6O9_9nQ?si=PkpxnyDQmiwP9we9


Who is going to run a node for a network they can't afford to use though?

Your blocks can be 1KB small so everyone can theoretically run a node, but if it eventually costs $100s or $1,000s to transact that is just as centralizing as gigablockers. Only a tiny cabal of wealthy elite will use it and run nodes.

Average global daily income is $33. You're going to price out most of the world from using it and wanting to run a node.


Well said


Adam meddling in these kind of convos shows more weakness and insecurity than strength.

We all could be happy that the free market provides us with very different projects with varying trade offs. I am glad we have super distributed BTC, super fungible Monero and super cheap bcash.

I don't need another fiat-like monopoly that makes it hard  to hedge. And I'd argue that real  hedging was not even possible before the invention of Bitcoin and after the capture of gold through ETFs.

I am all for free choice, taking into account the different risks of different approaches.

And as a self-sovereign being I am able to perfectly hedge my risk with those permissionless tools. That's a feature, not a bug.


It doesn't right now.
But neither does Bitcoin or LN.
All these custodial solutions aren't really "scaling Bitcoin" either they're just dodging the question.

Monero has the advantage of adapting with new scalability tech when necessary because the community isn't allergic to upgrades. It already cut down transactions size by ~80% with bulletproofs alone.

Your question also rests on many assumptions...That everything has to scale immediately (even when there is no demand for it). That billions are going to ever use Bitcoin or Monero in the first place. That technology isn't always improving. That efficiency gains wont be made. These things will scale over time.


I then wonder why you are not openly supporting Monero, which is attacked from all sides, while BTC gets its bags pumped by Saylor and BlackRock.

I know plenty of people that live on Monero, while most Bitcoiners if they at all pay with their coins use connected credit cards to their custodians.

And who is even running nodes these days? Monero with its price being 1:500 of BTC sees more active nodes than BTC.

Monero got delisted from all major exchanges being forced to bring decentralised exchanges and the circular economy to life.

Talking about choosing the hard way, is talking about Monero.

nostr:nevent1qqsvvv9pva6887up057hla7mdvhzez67la67u0f7xq7985fq7c0lrzspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyphydppzm7m554ecwq4gsgaek2qk32atse2l4t9ks57dpms4mmhfxqcyqqqqqqgx2ycmf


So you aren't denying that it is still expensive to transact and still not private?

And who cares what it was "meant for". This is reality 👇

https://image.nostr.build/14a48f04ab2b89e9e03de26225a5f3d71ca41406658d2231dbdd8b972ce1bd35.png


$5 wrenchies and 6102s are much easier with surveillance chains and will leave you just as broke. Pray the only thing that happens is your UTXOs becoming unspendable dust as fees rise 🙏


Learn more about the birth of Monero, the Internet's money: https://t.co/DwnBHSos4q

I especially love that you can read the original threads on bitcoin talk


You can't be both for freedom AND an expensive NFT surveillance chain maxi. Maybe some day you'll understand.


nostr:npub1dllf8wmj6jk83r7chck6madmfgh3fges65ctpe5t6ueujazvvcvsh20tz5
https://image.nostr.build/d739b87b2d18dd5539bf9890255656141fb2596c3378ba5db5ac69439ff9a863.jpg


>Has a problem with Monero not being perfectly privacy

>Simultaneously cool with zero privacy on his surveillance chain

Cognitive dissonance


Considering Monero was delisted from Binance - the largest exchange in the world - and *still* recovered to its 2 year average price shortly after I would say Monero is doing great. Digital cash 👌 organic p2p economies, not mainly a Tether pumped speculation coin

Don't feel sorry for us. Save your pity for those stuck on the original expensive NFT surveillance chain.

Have fun becoming a billboard for ads

🤡

https://image.nostr.build/14a48f04ab2b89e9e03de26225a5f3d71ca41406658d2231dbdd8b972ce1bd35.png


All things equal Monero will always be better suited for these kinds of things

Even with KYC Monero, how would they know who was receiving what if amounts and addresses aren't visible on Moneros chain? They couldn't see the flow of funds. Even if I went on social media and posted an xmr address for trucker donations there is no way to verify that address is receiving anything. You could even have decoy wallets to hand them if they came knocking. That wouldn't work with Bitcoin.

And this still doesn't detract from the fact that privacy + anonymity are essential

I agree that if you had a custodial wallet on a CEX and were fully KYC'd then yea you are fked not even Monero could help you.

Direct purchases, Giftcards, Cash, Virtual Debits, all could've been purchased with Monero and handed out.

But yes, no-KYC + p2p is the way to go for these things.


White market adoption is at the mercy of regulations so is largely irrelevant if you're actually interested in permissionless transactions (entire point of Bitcoin). Anything they can impose on fiat transactions can also be done with Bitcoin transactions inside of white markets.


Delistings, rank drops, now more spam attacks. Monerochan can't catch a break 😤

...yet still somehow hovering around it's two year average price. What an absolute monster 👹


It's sad, but expected. Majority of crypto is a glorified casino. There are only a handful on the top 50 that are genuinely anti-fragile and could survive, much less thrive, the way Monero has after delistings. Imo the continued crackdowns on crypto in general only makes Moneros value prop shine all the more stronger.


You're just saying "unconfiscateability means jack shit without privacy and anonymity" in a different way, smoothy

I've heard BTC Session explain his story several times. You obviously havent. They went to his familys home with guns and made him give up the private keys to his wallet. Could they do that if they didn't know who he was? No.

They traced what addresses the funds were going to and where they came from. Most donations came from KYC'd users so it was simple to find out who they were from in addition to people posting addresses for donations on social media from their doxxed accounts.

Wanna know how I know that you're KYC'd to the hilt, surveillance apologist?
When they tell you to bend over for your 1,000 sats how wide do you spread em?
Lol


Where did I say "everyone"? Don't add words that I didn't say.
I said *the most*.

Now your definition has turned arbitrary. So if any amount of people use  something for exchange it is now money? If that is your definition you are saying Monero is money along with any shitcoin you don't like.


Do normies not use money?...if anything normies using it is necessary if you want to call it money

Money is the most saleable good. A function of it's acceptability that is even in your own criteria. If you said Bitcoin was a MoE ok that would be true, but that's not what you said. You said it was money. It's clearly not.


Ver trocador.app

É um agregador de câmbios, pelo que obtém as taxas mais baratas e pode ver os níveis de privacidade e KYC de cada um


He is now arguing against his own list. He says acceptability no longer matters lmao. Must be nice to be able to switch criteria when it becomes inconvenient


So acceptability is now not a property of money?...Wtf?

You're all over the place man.

You're now literally arguing against your own criteria for money THAT YOU BROUGHT UP. You are not a serious person and no one should take your seriously.


The real world doesn't care about your theoretical list of perfect money. That's why people choose to use fiat, USDT, and even other shitcoins over Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not private so it's not fungible (AKA not uniform, AKA not indistinguishable from other Bitcoin).
Bitcoin is not widely accepted either vs fiat.
By your own definition it wouldn't be money.


Ok thanks for telling me. I was never stopping you despite the feigned outraged pearl-clutching that Monerobros are oppressing you for disagreeing with you on Nostr. You were the one who started calling people shills and giving opinions without any argument or facts not me.

Fact #1: Miners can individually target and censor transactions on transparent blockchains. Figured with two KYC'd mining pools that control payouts and having over 51% hashrate it would be an even more obvious attack vector.
Fact #2: Censorship resistance without privacy means shit if criminals or state goons can knock on your doors and kidnap, torture, or kill you. Glad you are the 0.001% of people using Bitcoin who can stay kind of psuedonymous and/or wouldn't fold under duress on you or your family.


You surveillance chain shills are the ones who made a cult out of his first creation not us. You have more in common with transparent chain Bcashers and BSVers than we do.

Arrogant of you to label me things and conflate me stating facts as me dictating anything. I'm not telling anyone to do anything. Do whatever you want.


Yes, but it is one of the most crucial aspects and you are greatly downplaying it's importance.
It can't be uncensorable without privacy.
Great no one could stop you from sending your transaction. Now goons with guns are kidnapping you or throwing you in a cage because you did or worse.
Miners can even censor and target your individual transactions on Bitcoin. Wouldn't be possible to do any of that if it was private.


Says the coin pushing towards centralized L2s and custodians. Please.

The origins of Bitcoin all stemmed from cypherpunks pushing privacy as a top priority. Are you ignorant, in denial, or lying?

nevent1qqsysrcuq3z3g8etmqg8v3zszsnsuacpltwwutx2w5pa3s0kh337jvcpzpmhxue69uhhxmmvda3k7tnwdshsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqs3pfhy5


Says the person arguing for shitcoins...

It's one thing to say that Cashu can be useful, but it's absolute cognitive dissonance if you then turn around and label others shitcoiners after arguing for ruggable, money-printer-go-brrr, centralized tokens

Can't make this shit up 🤦♂


Not upset just fail to see what is better about it maybe someone can explain.
Zephyr privacy tech is the same as Moneros it even says so on their website. And Bitcoin tech has no privacy so irrelevant.

Only difference is Zephyr anon set is microscopic.


That's great but I don't see where you are disagreeing now. None of that makes it Bitcoin.

It's interesting you said goodluck with Monero because of SOV when now you are saying "no one in their right minds" are going to hold their actual wealth on Cashu (understandably).

You can just use Monero as a "spend through mechanism" too, except unlike cashu, you actually self-custody your money.


Just wanted to point out your reposted note had "xmr" in it. Coincidence? 🤔

note1mruh -->xmr<-- qfp67sugnthh23mf64k03y59x0lag6u54fsgxyvls3xzqcpfrjf


Yea agree that most crypto is garbage, but there are a few gems

It's the most efficient way of moving digital money *permissionlessly*. Cash has it's own benefits, but you can't pay with cash digitally.

Cant send cash instantly to anyone on the planet
Cant carry unlimited amounts in your head to avoid confiscation and theft
Issuance is centralized
Inflation is unpredictable
Difficult to verify authenticity
No mechanisms to verify supply
Not as easily divisible. Need to carry specific denominations.
Can't trustlessly exchange for other crypto (no atomic swaps)
Different people can't have simultaneous ownership and control over the same cash (multisig)

Monero is a fraction of a cent to move any amount. No addresses or amounts are visible on it's blockchain.


But that was Calles point. It doesn't help you spend Bitcoin privately because it isn't Bitcoin. It helps you spend IOUs privately. It's just an improvement on custodial money.


Cashu is not sovereign and even Calle it's creator says not to conflate it with Bitcoin or scaling Bitcoin


Just speak in code and put on your batman voice 🦇


In what ways is it better?
Does anybody use it?
Is it battle tested in the real world?

There are several techs that offer better privacy than Monero in theory. Zephyr doesn't even offer better privacy tech. Its using the same things as Monero like ring sigs that are already fairly old and being replaced. It's anon set is also probably abysmal. Seems like another attempt at Haven which failed.


Yes, but all things equal which is less likely to be traced by default or range of mistakes that are possible? It would be disingenuous to say Bitcoin or LN


Coinjoins are pure obfuscation nothing is hidden/encrypted. Not that it would even help as overwhelming majority of Bitcoin users dont coinjoin, and vast majority of LN is using custodians or LSPs so have no privacy. Almost no users are using their own nodes and using private channels (which ironically reduces plausible deniability).

How would you compare volume? The closest thing you can do afaik is compare mcap and capacity. And Monero is almost 10x cap of LN network.

You can't keep your noncustodial btc for long if they can trace it. There are entire categories of mistakes that are impossible to do with Monero.

Bitcoin is just a tool as well not an end all solution. There are many things it doesn't do well and probably never will.


I don't use stable coins to buy anything so not sure. But if you scroll down this link there is a list of goods and services you can buy directly with Monero. Still working on it.

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq


Local shops and businesses. It's very common everywhere in those places.


I wasn't implying Tron was freezable I was speaking about blockchains in general. Yea, ETH too expensive to use all the time or for small amounts. You can use DAI on ETH L2s but those are all ruggable (but still permissionless. i think?). I'm just barely starting to look into Solana, but I think you are right.

You can also weigh the risks and just continue using USDT on Tron for now. Not ideal, but I think freezes are still pretty rare so very unlikely to happen to you (but they are getting relatively more frequent). I wouldn't keep any major amounts on it though of course.


Ok well damn. In that case I think DAI is the only major stable coin smart contract on ETH that cannot be frozen. Maybe Solana has one? Not sure. But if the chain itself is freezable than the smart contract doesn't matter afaik. If you find another lmk


By then I'm sure the circular economy will be larger and more established than it is now. The tools will be better as well. If there is demand for something it will be met even if it is at a higher premium.

But the options I can see right now are cash(doesn't exist in this scenario), buying things directly (if you can), swap to other "clean" crypto on DEXs or p2p platforms, and/or trade for digital fiat p2p. People do all these right now. For everyday stuff you can also use gift cards or proxy purchases. There are probably more that I'm missing


You might be right, but I don't know enough about Tron to say. If it is impossible to freeze on Tron I would like to know too

I think USDT is pretty popular on Tron iirc


I don't think these people really "cash out" their stables for fiat. They hold them and use them like just like cash to buy, sell, and trade. Even at businesses and shops around them.


Ok, I see what you're saying you're right. I guess the sticking point would be whether something was still sufficiently decentralized and what range would be sufficient enough to resist capture.

If X achieves the same outcome as X+Y then the additional Y is redundant. Or at least brings increasingly diminished returns.


Yes I would want to sure. But that's not the current reality and probably never will be.

Even when you can find things to use Monero on in the white market you have to pay capital gains taxes for those purchases, so it still makes more sense to use fiat to buy those things.

Unless you are not going to report that or pay those taxes...but then would that be considered a white market transaction? I don't think so


Cool. Is there somewhere I can find other Wasabi coordinators to use? And an easy way to switch to them in the settings?


Guess you'll never know 👻


🚩Proprietary
🚩Can probably see everything you do
🚩Software is not open source
🚩Their servers hold your key
🚩Can't purchase with Bitcoin

👎👎👎

Much better options, friend:
SeedSigner
Foundation
ColdCard
BitBox


"The downstream liability aspect of what Roman was charged with and how it all played out is very scary for anybody who uses Bitcoin and Monero. The idea that you can get prosecuted for somebody else's crimes because of this misidentification is downright scary. And I think that that's one of the things that we're going to have to educate people on, was that Chainalysis and other blockchain surveillance companies are moving beyond KYC, know your customer and towards KYT, know your transaction. So this blockchain surveillance dragnet is going to expand and try to identify every single transaction. But in attempting to develop that dragnet, there's a lot of assumptions that are going to be made and they're not all going to be correct. And the accuracy of the software and being presented as something that is completely accurate and given a law enforcement as facts when really there's all these assumptions baked into it, makes it even more scarier when they're trying to combine, know your transaction with this misunderstanding of flow of control and flow of funds."

Tor Ekeland & Mike Hassard  / EPI 304

https://video.nostr.build/b544429146af72de8ae0a5a41f8a9aa6597cc6eb8ce86805fd815684c91cd677.mp4

Watch Here 📺:  https://youtu.be/aSmyAWwLf2o


Monero mining is a lot easier to hide

-No crazy heat, energy draw, or noise
-Can mine on general hardware and "blend in" (everyone knows what someone is going to use an ASIC for)
-No major pools that require KYC and are over 51% of total hash

Why would it become centralized just because criminals mine it? There are many factions that make up "criminals" would be competing along with everyone else that mines


Don't worry this doesn't apply to you. Custodial Lightning zaps are not anonymous.


How do you enforce something if you don't know who they are, how much they sent, or who received it?
This is made even more difficult, if not impossible, with private crypto like Monero or any privacy layers that may come to Bitcoin. Ecash already does this (although it is custodial)


Anyone can use Bitcoin/Monero or any proper crypto because they are permissionless neutral tools, but from my perspective it doesn't really make sense strategically for political ideologies that don't place top emphasis on the individual. They lie on the far end of the spectrum for ultimate individual sovereignty. It is contrary to many progressive goals or adds a lot of friction to them.


You're right. I should have added "ostensible" or "supposed" spam deterrence. I think the new username feature will make that better. Curiously, I've never experienced spam on Signal.

Yea, I agree with you about the iOS thing, but that's more of an iOS problem. I don't trust or use iOS. I was just saying that Signal is available outside of Android.

Hell yea, SimpleX is my go to


Maybe this will help. Let me know if you have specific questions

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq


He's right.

"In this article I describe a protocol by which these services can be provided to and by untraceable entities."
b-money 1998 Wei Dai

"Digital Cash & Privacy" 1993 -Hal Finney
"The Case for Privacy" 2005 -David D. Friedman
"Credit With Privity" 1996 -Nick Szabo
"Confidential Auditing" 1998 -Nick Szabo
"Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" 1982 -David Chaum
"Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Dining Cryptographers Problem: Unconditional Sender and Recipient Untraceability" 1988 -David Chaum
"Proofs that Yield Nothing But Their Validity or All Languages in NP Have Zero-Knowledge Proof Systems" 1991 -Oded Goldreich, Silvio Micali, and Avi Wigderson
"Online Cash Checks" 1989 -David Chaum
"On Digital Cash-Like Payment Systems" 2005 -Daniel A. Nagy
"Secrecy, Authentication, and Public Key Systems" 1979 -Ralph C. Merkle
"Computer Systems Established, Maintained, and Trusted by Mutually Suspicious Groups" 1982 -David Chaum
"The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" 1988 -Timothy C. May
"The Cyphernomicon" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"Contracts in Cyberspace" 2000 -David D. Friedman
"Contracts with Bearer" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Crypto Glossary" 1992 -Eric Hughes and Timothy C. May
"Cyberspace, Crypto Anarchy, and Pushing Limits" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"The Geodesic Market" 1998 -Robert Hettinga
"The God Protocols" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Trusted Third Parties are Security Holes" 2001 -Nick Szabo

https://nakamotoinstitute.org/library

Heavy emphasis on privacy, untraceability, and anonymity in all of these.
No resemblance to the Bitcoin we know today.


Still available on Kraken and a few others

But there are many options to buy, swap, and sell it

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq


It's literally one extra step. That's the worst they can do.

Instead of:
Exchange <-> XMR

It's now:
Exchange <-> LTC, DOGE, BCH (or your crypto of choice) <-> XMR

You can also get get cash, or digital fiat, for XMR directly with crytpo ATMs and things like LocalMonero and Haveno(soon)

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq

https://image.nostr.build/1508d3f3ddedcb86288e8241d562bcd6c4b3b8f0dd5990d764db380b9d336628.png


What do you feel is too good to be true? Are you confusing the conversion rate (1 XMR = $154.05) for what you are going to get (0.64916 XMR = ~$90)? That's ~10% above market rate

Pretty sure it's legit if you don't mind KYC

https://image.nostr.build/0d70a00bb3d29064f7b872c66e2633e8b73d5eac9c58ea1e59eeaab592aa2e60.jpg


Yes, that is annoying and I understand the complaints.

But Signals draw is for everyday people that want easy accessible privacy. We aren't the target audience. Most people have phones. Signal is available on iOS too not just Android.

The phone number requirement is for simple spam deterrence and convenient contact discovery for users. Signal can't see phone numbers or contacts because everything is hashed client-side on your device before it goes to their servers.

But like I showed above it's fairly easy to get around using your real phone number and register in an anonymous way. And because of sealed sender Signal can't see your social graph. You can also use forked Molly client for even more security and privacy.

Signal is open source and reproducible so you can verify what the code is doing yourself:
https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/tree/main/reproducible-builds

https://www.signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/
https://www.signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
https://molly.im/


I think the lessons from history is whenever governments grow more restrictive, what was once allowable white market activity, now rushes out of it into black markets because prices rise (and thus profits rise - think of large black markets that arose in USSR). Like a hand gently cupping water versus a fist squeezing it. So ironically, if black markets and Monero usage remain small, that is probably a good thing because it means white markets havent grown too restrictive and oppressive.

Yes, for those reasons you say I doubt any country will adopt Monero in any real sense. It is against government interest of power and control. Smaller governments are easy centralized targets. There was a head to cut off. There is no one to go threaten or invade to shutdown Monero. The same reasons they tried and failed to dispose of torrents.


No, stable coins don't have to be exchanged for cash you can send them directly to people or swapped. Much easier to move than digital fiat rails. They have no privacy or anonymity, but most people don't care about that 🤷♂ They are pegged to $1 USD so are very popular in the global south in countries in Asia, Africa, South America, etc. because their local fiat currencies are much worse in comparison.

You can also use them to "lock-in" your bull market gains if you're a trader and expecting your shitcoins are going to crash soon.

Most stables are permissioned and centralized; USDT/USDC your transactions can be frozen. It is still pretty rare occurrence but becoming more frequent. DAI is the only major one that is permissionless if you use it on ETH.

Another big problem is USDT and USDC collateral cannot be audited by anyone and supply is centralized. Tether can arbitrarily print new stable coins on a whim. People using them just have to take their word that they are good for it. Obviously I have no trust in them at all, but I can understand why some people find them useful in the short term for certain things.


I don't remember which one I used specifically (it was a long time ago), but there are websites out there you can pay for sms verification using Monero like SMSPool, JuicySMS, TextVerified, etc. It's like $1

I just use a burner email or temp email for the sign-ups. Then once you you get your Signal account just "Register Lock" it in the settings so no one else can register that phone number again.


Does this actually scale non-custodial and permissionlessly?


Sounds interesting I need to look more into this, but even if this offers anonymity, Wasabi Coinjoins are not ecash so don't offer the same level of privacy


Hey, you are preaching to the choir. I feel the same way


I think the problem is convincing the everyday people around us to use them. It has to be somewhat "modern", with newish features, and have no or little friction to appeal to most of them.

I'm still surprised that I was able to convince my family and friends to switch to Signal over time. Kind of a miracle that they have stuck to it for years. It's 100x better than normal sms texts and cell calls so I'll take what I can get. I didn't use my real number to register for Signal either.

For those that have it available for me to use (like internet anons and our little community) I prefer XMPP OMEMO, SimpleX, etc and I'll use them where I can


Remember guys. He froze your bank account if you don't comply.
Bitcoin / Monero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTJIx12nG_g


AlexAnarcho is great

Careful!!! Don't let them hear you say the M-word!!!! 👻


Aamir Taaki. Legend


I'm not sure how you're planning to protect your wealth from governments and general criminals if it's transparent and traceable. And expensive to use.

https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks


Agree
But seems we never learn
https://image.nostr.build/bc2b0830424a9cc6937700ccd43c3ead61f175683b1daa06f9980aae8675454d.jpg


Go Monero
https://nostrcheck.me/media/b179aef8aaabdd4d073b08906fee65637eedbea0afed07797c316f33a574dd6c/9832a4ec5a066bfc44640defd472c5c040ba150f1f230bba455e9da728c73ff2.webp


This last coordinated propaganda wave is kinda funny, ngl https://i.nostr.build/WGGJV.jpg


Yes, Calle is extremely clear that ecash doesn't actually scale Bitcoin, but somehow there are many who still think and say so


No more stuck at the station waiting for the next block during rush hour, new update to Monero Core 0.18.3.3 + some extra fixes: https://github.com/m2049r/xmrwallet/releases/tag/v3.3.11

https://cdn.fosstodon.org/media_attachments/files/112/122/540/891/390/089/original/ab090cc4701bb403.jpg


"The anonymous world is anti-fragile because it flourishes under attack. The harder anonymity is attacked, the more it is vindicated."

https://dark.fi/insights/memetic-warfare.html


"XMR to LTC atomic swap bounty"

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/112/1-239m-xmr-to-ltc-atomic-swap


Sadly, it's one of the last things they're going to do. XMR/BTC swaps wont be out for another year based on their timeline video. Pretty sure Serai and Haveno will be out before then.


Not ideal tbh couldve been engineered better, but less of a concern since Monero doesn't have a fixed supply. Over time that 65% becomes less and less of the total supply. And on top of that, I'm sure most of that has dispersed and left their hands a long time ago (traded, sold, given away). Those early miners didn't have the advantage of hindsight either. They took a big risk that could've easily not worked out. Later adopters avoided that same level of risk so it kind of evens out.

If you use Monero like cash for private permissionless transactions I don't see how it really effects us


How are you comparing hashrate? They have two completely different PoW algos. That's like saying 20 centimeters is longer than 5 feet because it has the bigger number.

Not sure what makes you think Monero is less decentralized by nodes. Monero is only a fraction of a percent of Bitcoins size, yet it has similar node count to Bitcoin.

https://monero.fail/map
https://bitnodes.io/


Expanding on Level 1: Bitcoin is miners can censor individual transactions. It's not possible to do that on Monero. You're forced to attack the entire network if you want to prevent a single transaction. All things equal - this censorship would be *much harder* to do and sustain (and it gives miners plausible deniability) if Bitcoin was private.


Are you factoring the current size of Monero VS Bitcoin? (mining difficulty would increase, so attack difficulty would increase as well if Monero was of similar size)

Why have they not attacked Monero?
Is it because it is too small to be on their radar?
Is it not worth diverting resources away from their current intended purposes?
When it becomes a big enough threat to finally consider attacking will the hashpower be larger and more challenging to attack then? (Monero is a fraction of Bitcoins size)

With Monero the lower barrier to be able to participate in mining also allows for more decentralization (at least in theory)

I think ASIC and ASIC-resistant PoW both have their own unique downsides and upsides. ASIC is harder to attack, but once an attack is underway it is harder to recruit new honest hash to push back. The opposite is true of RandomX.

Other ASIC-resistant advantages: ASICs centralize and make good targets in several ways.
-Much more discrete (power draw, heat, noise)
-General CPU purchases mean you blend in VS buying an ASIC. Everyone knows what you're going to do with that ASIC.
-Large concentrated mining farms are easy to co-opt and regulate for governments.
-Over half the hashpower now requires KYC
-No P2pool. Stratumv2 helps but isn't sufficient. Large pool operators control payout so are targets for governments.


If that's is all it took to destroy a cryptocurrency Bitcoin would be in big trouble. Gov could just say "Bitcoin is banned from exchanges" and it's dead. I'm sure you don't believe that though do you.

Monero was already delisted from the largest exchange in the world - Binance - a month ago and is already back around average price again.

You can swap any major crypto from any exchange for Monero. Literally one extra step. It's unstoppable.

https://image.nostr.build/aec9a824a2253f4702407ab906351d32c81d7f3f36163ea3fc6db51298d98182.jpg


https://monezon.com order arrived fine.

make a wish list on amazon
pay someone in monero to send it to you

you get stuff from amazon with XMR
they get to convert their fiat to your XMR

fees are a little pricey.
i paid a 15% premium i think.


I want to caveat: Avoid using XMR on exchanges, or going in and out of transparent crypto like Bitcoin. Monero can't protect you from what you do outside of it.

Use with an open-source self-custodial wallet (Like Monerujo, Stack Wallet, Cake Wallet, Feather Wallet, etc) and you get the full privacy benefits I said above


Addresses and amounts are literally impossible to see on Monero because of RingCT and Stealth Addresses. They are encrypted, not obfuscated. So Monero is true privacy for that.

The most you could do by looking at the XMR blockchain is guess who the real sender was in a ring of decoys. But even if you guess correctly you still wouldn't know how much XMR they sent or who they sent it to.

And after only one hop from the original transaction it is already less than one percent chance of guessing correctly (~0.4%), two hops (~0.02%), etc


Bisq2 Beta released. Supporting more privacy protocols, multiple identities and Support for XMR to BTC atomic swaps. A big + for privacy.
https://bisq.wiki/Bisq_2


What is going to happen will happen, but I don't think we should put all our eggs in one basket. More options is better. Let the crypto ecosystem be diverse and flourish. The market will sort out the gems in the long run.


If the private, untraceable, and fungible Monero is a shitcoin...

What would that make Bitcoin? 🤔

Maybe we should ask Roman Sterlingov how he feels about that
nostr:nevent1qqswmvrdt869wp9jp2q2za087ddu9reh062fyuhd6ftdfk6a8e2l7jspz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg9xyg77x782tk4dq4thhp7fcpld5sd3wxczgedxue8e7s6k73sztvpsgqqqqqqs3dejs8


#Bisq 2 goes deep into Lightning and Liquid (Liquid Submarine Swaps, Liquid Multisig).
... And it gives options to do Monero Swaps.

https://bisq.wiki/Bisq_2 https://image.nostr.build/923d1a75579b439e05e854228d83ba69016e580b81d17b313df8318d3a9ec7ba.jpg


"this is not an acceptable trade off"

*for you*

I always find this argument kind of funny. Other critical components of Bitcoin rely on cryptographic assumptions that would be catastrophic if wrong and you trust those. I never see you talk about those.

What about the downsides of having a transparent chain?
-Surveillance
-Non-fungibility
-Targeted mining censorship

You keeping up with the Roman Sterlingov case?

A common theme from many great minds that paved the way for the creation of Bitcoin placed ***great*** emphasized on "privacy", "anonymity", and "untraceability". Many Bitcoiners now ignore, don't know about it, or treat it as a side issue. They weren't arguing about "fixed supply" or NGU.


Exciting news! Offers on Bisq2 are now popping up online! 🎉 🚀

At this initial stage of launch, it's crucial to note that Bisq2 is utilizing a new trading protocol called Bisq Easy. As Bisq Easy operates on a reputation-based system, offering a relatively lower security model, traders engaging on Bisq Easy are advised to stick to smaller amounts of Bitcoin for now.

Read more about Bisq Easy Trading Protocol here: https://bisq.wiki/Bisq_Easy#Bisq_Easy_Trade_Protocol_Specifics

#dex #decentralized #bitcoin #btc #nokyc #stacksats #bisq #nigeria #turkey #india

https://m.primal.net/HlcN.png


Any plans to support XMR/FIAT trades? The more pairs the better 🔁


Yes, LSPs are using the lightning network - not you. You're being allowed to tentatively use it. You pay an additional fee on top of the network fee for the privilege of asking permission. They can censor you at any moment. They can disappear and your wallet becomes useless. Are those things permissionless transactions? No

That's okay do what you want.


What good is the permissionless aspect of on-chain if you never use it or don't use it as currency? The properties of on-chain transactions have nothing to do with your LSP transactions

No need to be upset with me. I'm just a messenger helping you work out your cognitive dissonance.


Nothing in life is 100% secure. Grey man is a valid tactic, but not applicable for every situation. Grey man doesn't help when you need to do something that will make you stick out.


Tornado Cash is still around. They shutdown a frontend.

Just about anyone in the world can mine Monero - sounds more decentralized to me than Bitcoin in that aspect.

Roughly similar node count as well
https://monero.fail/map


I see that. Bitcoin is such a high form of money for you that you would even settle for currency substitutes that give away foundational pillars of Bitcoin (permissionless transactions). Can't argue with that conviction


If only there was something we could use that completely hides receivers 🤔

Roman is an unfortunate soul and was very early when he made his "misstep" and didn't have the alternatives we do nor the benefit of hindsight. He has an excuse. We don't.
nostr:nevent1qqsqqqqzzcmk47dnm5q9y8q5tcejjta6gm92vkr4a7kzc2jhuc6umccpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtczyzkr76h7zavn7cvpq5fa4jdpu4zws7uuaydj05mm3rk937a2jq225qcyqqqqqqgatnnfl


Goodluck keeping your riches without privacy

https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/

https://x.com/mikehassard/status/1767596230299824555?s=20


Phoenix is one of the better options because theyre non-custodial, but theyre still intermediaries for your transactions. They can also see destinations and amounts.

Yes, banks will always exist. I'm just saying L2 vs L1 is apples to oranges (especially custodial/permissioned L2s). Makes more sense to compare L1 vs L1 (Bitcoin on-chain vs Monero)


I'm not going to argue that LN isn't Bitcoin, but are you the ~3% of LN users who use it without custodians and transact without permission? (no custodial wallets or LSPs i.e. run their own LN node)

Bypassing intermediaries is the thing that makes Bitcoin special - not the name Bitcoin. Other cryptos achieve that same goal with different properties.

You mentioned hassles earlier. Here are the hassles of sovereign LN (the only relevant comparable use of LN) that L1s like Monero and on-chain Bitcoin don't have:
-Need to fund channels before you can even use
-No static/offline addresses
-Can be rugged if node goes offline
-Can be force closed back on-chain (wasting time and money)
-Can fail to route a payment
-Larger payments will fail
-Lacks strong privacy by default (only applies to Monero)


Aside from the privacy & fungibility problems, I can make about 200 Monero transactions right now for the cost of 1 BTC transaction. That was more like 3,000+ when there was increased demand not too long ago. This is going to get worse as time goes on. BTC is a digital asset that you buy and sit on.

Properties of BTC are not ideal for a sovereign digital *currency*


It has to be DAI on a permissionless chain like ETH of course. Not DAI on Binance or some centralized shit.


FYI if someone wants a solid stablecoin, DAI is the third largest stablecoin with a fairly long history (for crypto). A lot if it'
s collateral is backed by USDT and USDC, but the major difference is no one can freeze your actual DAI transactions like they can with USDT or USDC if you care about that stuff.


Is it possible for a centralized group to freeze transactions? People might shit on it because of that. If you can't use crypto without permission, or someone can rug you, it kind of defeats the whole point. But I'm not familiar enough with Solana to say. Maybe it's coming from ETH users since they are competing chains.


すみません、私は日本語が母国語ではありません。翻訳機を使っています。しかし、ここにモネロの入手方法のガイドがあります。思ったより簡単です：

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq


その価格は、多くの暗号通貨がそうであるように、価格投機（ギャンブル）や取引所による為替操作に基づいているのではなく、実際の使用に基づいている。


Serai DEX

- DEX for BTC, XMR, ETH

- High-liquidity platform, simple UX

- Uses liquidity pools

- Will be integrated into nostr:nprofile1qywhwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnzd96xxmmfdejhytnnda3kjctv9uq3vamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3w0pkhytnjda3kkue0qyv8wumn8ghj7mn9wfhhxarj9eux6u3wwfhkx6mn9uq3zamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0qy2hwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytn00p68ytnyv4mz7qgkwaehxw309ajkgetw9ehx7um5wghxcctwvshsqgy3gpp4hd87942m4rm8szguxjrtkqs4pr2lhzqpx5alr8fgwngf9qjrm6a8

- No ICO, no IEO, no presal, no premine, no dev tax or fund

Info from Luke Parker at Finney Forum


Interesting, I'll have to look into this myself 🧐 Thanks for the link


onion routing usefulness is greatly reduced or even nullified when most users are going thru a few massive centralized LN nodes. They have a picture of the overwhelming majority of the network.


Good question. I have no personal experience doing it on a phone, but I've seen a few people do it before so it is possible. Howard Chu even used his car radio to mine. Not sure if this specifically can help you mine but you can run a node with it.

https://github.com/CryptoGrampy/android-termux-monero-node


trocador.appのようなものを使って、MoneroやZcashにスワップすることができます。


タイポ Monero Wallet  = Monerujo


MyMonero」を使用しない - MyMoneroは「ライトウォレット」であるため、第三者があなたが受け取った取引を見ることができ、Moneroの目的の一部が損なわれます。

モバイルユーザー向け
Cake Wallet
Monero Wallet
Stack Wallet

デスクトップユーザー向け
Feather Wallet
Cake Wallet
Monero GUI/CLI


Yes, Monero isn't magic. It can't protect you from anything done outside of it. Like swapping in/out of transparent crypto like btc, using KYC exchanges connected to his bank account, and generally running his mouth too much online. Which is how he was caught


You just brought up Bitcoin 3 hours ago. You literally can't go a day without mentioning it. That's why I'm saying just own it who cares

Bro, you talk about Monero all the time wym? You just did it twice in this note 😂


***Bitcoin transactions that follow the rules*** are less likely to be rejected in the supermarket example. Not Bitcoin transactions in general. If I'm trying to follow the rules so my transaction isnt rejected, why wouldn't I just use digital fiat for that? It's the most "approved" rule-following currency and everyone accepts it. Faster and cheaper to transact too.

Unless you want to be fully traceable with worse privacy than Paypal (at least you have privacy from the general public when you use digital fiat) what are you going to do when any bitcoin coming from coinjoins is made illegal (tainted)? Or any transaction made without "approved custodians" is not allowed? Most white market businesses won't want to deal with the hassle and cost, OR will be very picky about their Bitcoin so they're not left with the "tainted" hot potato liability.

Bitcoin has been a better SoV historically (future is speculation), but its properties are less than ideal for frequent transactions (currency, digital cash, or MoE).
There are reasons why farmers might prefer Monero in a p2p situation:
-It's very cheap to transact unlike Bitcoin (Less than a cent. I can make about 400 transactions on Monero right now for the cost of a single Bitcoin transaction. It's much worse when there is a lot of demand in the mempool)
-Fungibility similar to gold and cash
-They don't have to worry about third-parties or counter-parties being able to peer into their balances or trace their histories. Even if it's just for personal security "look how rich this person is let's rob them" Sure, they *could* deal with the tedium of coinjoins, spend even more time and money, all for weaker privacy (because nothing is hidden in a coinjoin, it is just obfuscated. Monero has no amounts or addresses.)
-stronger plausible deniability
-Their transactions can't be individually censored by miners
-It makes more business sense for a merchant to accept all major crypto, you're casting a wider net for customers, and later just consolidate and swap to Bitcoin whatever they want to save long term
Do these outweigh the extra step (if you're a bitcoin saver)? What will the market do? It's not clear

I'm not arguing for gold, but I can see some benefits of gold that Bitcoin and Monero don't have.
Like not depending on digital infrastructure to use, more liquidity, wider acceptance, solid several millennia history, and gold bars don't cease to exist if gold miners don't mine

The only places Bitcoin/Monero always make sense is in black markets. Any white market use is fleeting and in flux. The general trend around the world looks to be more crypto regulation and crackdowns which leaves Bitcoin/Monero to their origins of black markets - the only markets that do not require permission.


You're right. Same thing would likely happen to Monero.

The difference is if Monero *was* accepted (unlikely) they would either have to accept all Monero payments or none. They wouldn't be able to pick and choose like they could with Bitcoin and Liquid (Liquid is custodial and traceable since it doesn't hide sender/receiver it is still taintable). They wouldn't be able to peer into your full or partial balances or be able to trace them after being rejected either. Merchants also have plausible deniability that they couldn't know if the transaction was from a "dirty" source with Monero.

Let's say Monero is not allowed (likely). If they are allowing some Bitcoin transactions and rejecting others, they're likely only allowing those bitcoin transactions that "follow the rules" (taxes, regulations, KYC, approved custodians), so at that point it would make more sense to use fiat for that purchase.

At the end of the day this stuff is black market money

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


I dont think it is about double spends. It's about someone holding your actual Bitcoin and being able to do whatever they want with it.


You're in complete denial

Nostr is *at least* 80% Bitcoin related content

Come on man. It is what it is. Own it.


How can I argue with that? If you don't find it useful - you're right

Using permissionless crypto for white market (permissioned) transactions doesn't make sense. If what you want to do follows the rules, then fiat makes more sense to use for that transaction.

That changes over time and depends where you live and who you are.


Or whatever Monero-like crypto that may usurp it in the future that has the same properties; private, anonymous, fungible, untraceable, cheap to transact, and permissionless


It includes but doesn't necessarily mean those things. It also means "off the books", "under the table", "unofficial", legal status unclear, or innocuous practices that are technically illegal but everyone does it. This is a way of life for most people in those places.

Yes, I agree. Right now Monero is just an intermediary tool to get fiat. What I'm saying is where will the cash market go as it continues phasing out? Probably stable coins like USDT and USDC at first. We already see this. But when regulations start tightening around those, and freezing becomes much more common, there are not many options left aside from Monero.

I can only think of one other; DAI. It is permissionless, but it is backed in large part by permissioned stables that could destabilize it by freezing any collateral DAI holds. Also, as chain analysis industry grows, and tools for them improve, there will be a greater need for privacy and anonymity which DAI does not provide.

I don't think it is likely that Monero will ever be adopted at large, but a significant chunk of the economy outside of white markets seems very plausible imo.


To be fair Monero doesn't scale either atm. It wouldn't be able to handle a sudden influx of a significant fraction of the world using it (at least in any decentralized fashion)

I agree with you that BTC is not fungible, anonymous, or an effective currency

I'm just meeting people where they're at. Didn't feel like arguing about the SoV narrative (more accurately speculation) if someone is already entrenched in that belief. And how can you really blame them based on historical performance?

All I wanted to let them know is if they want to save with Bitcoin they can still do that. It doesn't preclude them from using Monero for as a currency


Apparently the difference with Obscura is you use different VPN providers for the additional hop. So you don't have to trust Obscura or any single VPN.

"How is Obscura different from my VPN’s multihop?

Multihop VPNs claim they’re more secure because they direct your traffic through multiple servers. But the same provider still controls all of the servers, which means they can correlate your identity with your traffic.

In Obscura, we only control the first hop and use blind third-party relays for the exit hop. The result is that we can never correlate your identity with your traffic as we don’t even see your traffic in the first place!"


Forgot to add that about a quarter of the world economy is "shadow" markets. Countries in the global south have as high as 2/3 of their economies operating outside white markets.

Worldwide cash market is  about $100 trillion. In an increasingly digital world, and with cash slowly being phased out by many countries, Monero is a great substitute to soak that up over time


I wouldn't say irrelevant, because now we have options that weren't even possible before, but you're right about being for "illegal markets". Monero (and even Bitcoin) is ultimately black market money. Any white market use will always be fleeting and shifting:

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


You don't have to choose.

You can treat Bitcoin as a "savings account" (keep transacting to a minimum), and use Monero as a "checkings account" for transacting where you can (very cheap, private, anonymous).

Roman Sterlingov was just found guilty yesterday (unjustly framed), after spending years in prison and going thru many legal battles, in large part because of Bitcoins traceability

https://x.com/mikehassard/status/1767596230299824555?s=20

https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/


Looks interesting, more options is always nice, but you can already do what Obscura does with any VPN that supports multi-hop like Mullvad and IVPN. So I'm not really sure what the hype is about. Anyone know?


Yea, it could be. But the change is so sudden and unprecedented it just makes me suspect it's not. I really don't know for sure what it is though so anything is on the table.


Not only that but to even get the paltry amount of information above this attack has to be sustained for a quite a long time. Total decoys come from the entire history of the chain not just current transactions. That's 85% of *current transactions* not the entire selection of decoys available.


I don't think it is likely to be organic either, but this attack would do nothing to hidden amounts and addresses. It would only effect senders and this is the theoretical worst case:

Alice sent ?xmr to ?

They know Monero was sent. That's about it.

And 'Alice' is a 64-char alphanumeric that likely has no connection to any irl identity


Whats your definition of a shitcoin? 🤔

You can still make private, anonymous, and permissionless transactions with Monero. You can't do that with Bitcoin.


Yes, but not sure if open source matters with websites. You can't verify if they are running the same code on their servers anyway.

Best you can do is have no-javascript and/or an onion site. They do both.
http://trocadorfyhlu27aefre5u7zri66gudtzdyelymftvr4yjwcxhfaqsid.onion/

You can also use other options on my link that don't require trust (or minimize trust) like Bisq, UnstoppableSwap, BasicSwapDEX. They are all open source software you can run and verify for yourself.


That's only an issue if you can't upgrade to better tech and/or need for it to scale immediately


Old paper and fairly sure this vulnerability was already patched, but correct me if I'm wrong

Doesn't affect hidden amounts or addresses either.
So this is what they would theoretically know:
Alice sent ? to ?

And it is harder than you might think to sustain this kind of attack. ArticMine goes over the details in new Monerotopia starts 1:36:00 :
https://www.youtube.com/live/UeUGiSreegs?si=hIxFstNyY4_7vTwi&t=5753


Start 1:36:00


Old paper and fairly sure this vulnerability was already patched, but correct me if I'm wrong LiberLion

Doesn't affect hidden amounts or addresses either.
So this is what they would theoretically know:
Alice sent ? to ?

And it is also harder than you might think to sustain this kind of attack. ArticMine goes over the details in recent Monero Talk:
https://www.youtube.com/live/UeUGiSreegs?si=hIxFstNyY4_7vTwi&t=5753


This is just a narrative

There is no general technical reason that you *need* an L2 unless you are limiting yourself to old tech and need it to scale immediately

Even Bitcoin L1 has potential to scale over time. It all heavily depends on rate of adoption, consumer tech advances, and protocol scalability improvements. Think of increase in bandwidth and hard drive size in only a decade and decreasing cost.

If you still don't think so, here are only two examples of L1 tech that can easily scale *today*: MimbleWimble (LitecoinMWEB, Grin, Beam) and DAGs (Nano)


Kind of true. You can't prune to the same extent as other blockchains, but you *can* run a pruned node a fraction of the size of a full node. I've heard some say it is technically closer to "sharding" not pruning.


Ok, maybe so, we'll see what happens, but in the meanwhile users might need the combination of these properties *today* and Monero is the only thing that offers them at the moment.

Ecash is great privacy, really the only real contender as far as privacy goes, but it is custodial and mints can covertly print tokens unbacked by the base asset (Bitcoin). Not censorship resistant or permissionless en masse: if the mint disappears, or simply refuses to exchange or redeem any tokens, your eCash instantly becomes useless.


Sorry, replied to wrong comment


Not only more private, but cheaper (less than a cent to transact) and quicker/simpler (hit send button) too


Forgot to add that the last two can also fail to route, don't have static/offline addresses, and the LSP can inadvertently get you rugged if they drop the ball

Cheers!


I think that is undeniably true. If transactional privacy is a top priority use Monero.

But if you need to use Bitcoin you can't beat Whirlpool as long as you run your own Dojo


Reasons why you would want to use Monero over running your own Lightning node:
-No need to fund channels before you can even use it
-Has static/offline addresses
-Cant be rugged if node goes offline
-Cant be force closed (wasting time and money)
-Cant fail to route a payment
-Larger payments wont fail
-Has strong privacy by default (no technical hurdles to jump to achieve okayish privacy)

Reasons why you would want to use Monero over non-custodial wallets that require LSPs:
-Permissionless
-Stronger default privacy than the previous comparison
-Don't want to pay extra to a third party to transact
-Wallet isn't useless if their centralized node goes down

Reasons why you would want to use Monero over custodial Lightning:
-Self-custodial
-Permissionless
-Even STRONGER default privacy than the previous two comparison
-Wallet isn't useless if a centralized database goes down
-All your BTC isn't obliterated if a centralized database goes down

Hope this helps


Kind of

The big difference between them is Monero hides amounts and addresses (you can't see them at all)
Whirlpool is pure obfuscation, which might be effective enough, and the best possible privacy you can get with Bitcoin on-chain, but all amounts and connections are still visible so are strictly more vulnerable


Default Bitcoin transaction:
Alice sent $100 to Bob

w/ CT:
Alice sent ? to Bob

w/ CT + Stealth Addys
Alice sent ? to ?

w/ CT + Stealth Addys + Ring Sigs (AKA Monero)
Maybe Alice sent ? to ?


No amounts (Confidential Transactions)
No addresses (Stealth Addresses)
Senders obfuscated (Ring Signatures)
IP automatically hidden *if you're running your own node (Dandelion++)


Very easy

Use trocador.app for the quickest, cheapest, easiest way

Many more options in the "HOW DO I GET MONERO?" section depending on your preference 👇

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq


És o único mongoloide aqui se não consegues perceber que não existem "métodos" para tornar privada uma cadeia de blocos pública e transparente como a Bitcoin, seu palhaço absoluto

O "NGU", "futuro custodial", "só os ricos farão transacções em Bitcoin", "taxa de transação de mais de 100 dólares", "usar a minha moeda de vigilância para encher os meus sacos" é chamar-nos imorais

Hilariante 😂


Esqueceu-se de nos falar sobre as "características interessantes" que o Lightning tem e que o Monero não tem:

-A necessidade de financiar canais antes de os poder usar
-Não há endereços estáticos/offline
-Pode ser roubado se o nó ficar offline
-Pode ser fechado à força de volta à cadeia (desperdiçando tempo e dinheiro)
-Pode não encaminhar um pagamento
-Pagamentos maiores falharão
-Não há privacidade na receção
-Endereço IP exposto por defeito

É por isso que 95% dos utilizadores estão em carteiras de custódia?
Verdadeiramente o auge de uma moeda do futuro fácil de usar! 🤪

Já mencionei que também não pode ser escalado? É o seu único trabalho 😂


What are your goals?

If you don't care about privacy and permissionless transactions then what I said doesn't matter. But if you do care, and want to use Lightning, then run your own LN node and jump all the technical hoops to remain private.

Or you could just use Monero. Simple to use, permissionless, and designed from the ground up around strong default privacy. You don't even have to run your own node and will still retain transactional privacy from any remote nodes you use. Amounts and addresses are always hidden, senders obfuscated. Transactions also cost less than a cent.


Lol you're not stupid

I didn't know this either at one point until someone told me


-Not private since they calculate the routes for you so know amounts and destinations
-Permissioned because their nodes act as a middleman between you and the Lightning Network
-You have to pay them extra to transact
-If they go offline for any reason your wallet becomes useless

Any non-custodial LN wallet like this has the same problems
The only real way to be sovereign on LN atm is to run your own node. And that comes with it's own unique nightmares.


You can manually count coins as they are mined because they are transparent as they enter

How do you audit Bitcoins supply? By running a node and having it do it for you? Any Monero user can do that too


I got you bruh

scroll down to the "WHERE CAN I SPEND MONERO?" section

https://pb.envs.net/?fddbb02f3599dc10#5o6C51E4iNNQC5APBegEsMRTcDsNcHUFZXEMz6RNbUhq


Here is a list of the giants whose shoulders they stood on or built the Bitcoin

"Privacy" "Untraceable" "Anonymous" all heavily emphasized in their texts and titles

What does this sound more like to you Bitcoin or something like Monero?

If you aren't familiar maybe *you* really prolly shouldnt be making statements like that

"Digital Cash & Privacy" 1993 -Hal Finney
"The Case for Privacy" 2005 -David D. Friedman
"Credit With Privity" 1996 -Nick Szabo
"Confidential Auditing" 1998 -Nick Szabo
"Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" 1982 -David Chaum
"Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Dining Cryptographers Problem: Unconditional Sender and Recipient Untraceability" 1988 -David Chaum
"Proofs that Yield Nothing But Their Validity or All Languages in NP Have Zero-Knowledge Proof Systems" 1991 -Oded Goldreich, Silvio Micali, and Avi Wigderson
"Online Cash Checks" 1989 -David Chaum
"On Digital Cash-Like Payment Systems" 2005 -Daniel A. Nagy
"Secrecy, Authentication, and Public Key Systems" 1979 -Ralph C. Merkle
"Computer Systems Established, Maintained, and Trusted by Mutually Suspicious Groups" 1982 -David Chaum
"b-money" 1998 -Wei Dai
"The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" 1988 -Timothy C. May
"The Cyphernomicon" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"Contracts in Cyberspace" 2000 -David D. Friedman
"Contracts with Bearer" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Crypto Glossary" 1992 -Eric Hughes and Timothy C. May
"Cyberspace, Crypto Anarchy, and Pushing Limits" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"The Geodesic Market" 1998 -Robert Hettinga
"The God Protocols" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Trusted Third Parties are Security Holes" 2001 -Nick Szabo

https://nakamotoinstitute.org/library


Monero is currently pushing ~43% of Bitcoin daily transaction without breaking a sweat. I don't see anything crumbling.

Neither Bitcoin, Monero, nor Lightning can scale to billions of users and it may never be possible (or necessary) for them to

Yes, we all know it's impossible for anyone else to solve problems outside of Bitcoin. It's a law of physics. I can't even make a turkey sandwich unless Bitcoin does it for me


Is their app open source yet?


Milhões em Bitcoins e Moneros podem ter sido roubados em um 'exit scam' de um mercado da darknet. Usuários do Mercado Incógnito enfrentam problemas para sacar desde 5 de março, alimentando o medo de fraude. Hugbunter, um especialista em segurança da dark web, denunciou tentativas de suborno e confirmou suspeitas do golpe. O incidente segue um rally de preços de criptomoedas e aumentos de atividades criminosas mapeadas pela Chainalysis em 2023.

https://saladacripto.com/milhoes-bitcoin-monero-sumiram-golpe-darknet/


I think they are trying to tackle different problems. The only overlap is both have strong default privacy. eCash is trying to make make custodial solutions less shitty. Monero is trying to be sovereign digital cash.

Pros of eCash:
-Virtually instant transactions
-Extremely cheap/free
-Scalable: much higher throughput
-Potentially more private in some aspect: no blockchain

Cons:
-Custodial: Ruggable
-Centralized issuance that reintroduces seigniorage: Can covertly print IOUs unbacked by any Bitcoin
-Not censorship resistant or permissionless en masse: if the mint disappears, or simply refuses to exchange or redeem tokens, your eCash becomes useless

If you want self custodial, permissionless txs, with decentralized issuance Monero is the way to go. If you don't care about those value props (which imo are major and the whole point of things like Bitcoin) eCash seems better. You can manage your risk by spreading your eCash among different mints, or not holding large amounts, but the risks above will always exist.


Scalability expert Francisco Cabanas aka ArticMine discusses how #XMR is handling the sky rocketing daily transaction count! Join us TMRW morning at 11AM-EST/5PM-CET  + Price 📈 , News🗞 & MORE!

👀➡: streamyard.com/citqh8r3up

Join ➡:  https://www.youtube.com/live/UeUGiSreegs?si=6EtFL6ePufwk8INy

🙏🏽
🎢@cakewallet @monerocom
🎢@LocalMoneroCo


Free R&D - If it is fiatjaf, and he succeeds, that means a single person or small group can DDoS Monero, so it doesn't stand a chance against any serious threats anyway. It's better to know sooner than later and find weak spots. If he doesn't succeed we gain valuable insight too. I've already seen several great ideas for mitigating this floating in different spaces. So let's see what happens.


Monero glitched.  Or is it an attack?

There is currently a fee bug with Monero, that the wallet doesn’t automatically bump the fee when there is a backlog.  This fee bug is causing sync issues with many wallets.  Self-hosted nodes or unpopular nodes are less affected.  The bug has already been solved with some wallets.

There are rumors that Nostr's creator is behind a spam attack.  We address this and have a ready working solution:
https://simplifiedprivacy.com/monero-attack-nostr/


Just to be clear, you also cannot go into Monero from Bitcoin and immediately swap back, and in one transaction, that doesn't help and would be trivial to see on Bitcoin. You lose all beneficial privacy properties when you leave Monero like hidden amounts and addresses.

It's recommended to keep a small stash of Monero and spend it directly when you can. Or wait a certain amount of time before swapping back to Bitcoin and in separate amounts.


In that scenario Monero is much more helpful than Botcoin.


Here are ways to do it. It's for Monero, but there is a lot of overlap that you can use for Bitcoin:

https://pb.envs.net/?8d147af77e283d95#8YBZCoLJjG5a8bqNqwvGKLAwQfMUSeBE52GsP6UJBy7U


Boating accident memes are just memes. They won't work.

Ditch Coinbase. Only buy non-KYC Bitcoin and be comfy.

https://pb.envs.net/?8d147af77e283d95#8YBZCoLJjG5a8bqNqwvGKLAwQfMUSeBE52GsP6UJBy7U


The only sure way is buying non-KYC so nothing is tying you to a Bitcoin purchase

Gov will always know when and how much Bitcoin you bought if you KYC even if you coinjoin

The only way to "undo" is selling the same amount back to the same exchange you bought from so it looks like you don't have any left. Then re-buying non-KYC. Don't have to do this all at once. You can do this slowly over time in chunks. You might lose a little bit to fees and taxes but the peace of mind going forward is worth it I think. Or you can roll the dice up to you.

Remember, the leeches in DC were discussing taxing unrealized gains a couple years ago.


Liquid only hides amounts. It doesn't hide addresses or obfuscate senders like Monero. No default network level protection either.

Any custodial lightning wallets, or non custodial wallets that depend on LSPs, give you no privacy or reduced privacy since they are routing for you.

In order to have some privacy on Lightning you have to use your own lightning node:

1. open channels with coins you mixed beforehand
2. don't announce channels
3. open channels directly with only people you trust
4. use Tor

...and after all that your receiver privacy will still be bad.

So, I recommend just skipping the headache and using tool specifically designed around privacy from the ground up like Monero


3. This is like saying we can't fight for self custody or permissionless transactions from the base layer of the protocol.
4. Death by a thousand compromises. We already see this with the trend of normalizing custodians with fedimints.
5. Apparently not enough. Privacy and fungibility problems have been known for at least a decade and the base layer is still completely exposed. Miners can also target and censor individual transactions and addresses because of it.

What do all these below have in common? Heavy emphasis on privacy, untraceability, and anonymity. No resemblance to the Bitcoin we know today.

"Digital Cash & Privacy" 1993 -Hal Finney
"The Case for Privacy" 2005 -David D. Friedman
"Credit With Privity" 1996 -Nick Szabo
"Confidential Auditing" 1998 -Nick Szabo
"Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" 1982 -David Chaum
"Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Dining Cryptographers Problem: Unconditional Sender and Recipient Untraceability" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" 1988 -Timothy C. May
"The Cyphernomicon" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"Proofs that Yield Nothing But Their Validity or All Languages in NP Have Zero-Knowledge Proof Systems" 1991 -Oded Goldreich, Silvio Micali, and Avi Wigderson
"Online Cash Checks" 1989 -David Chaum
"On Digital Cash-Like Payment Systems" 2005 -Daniel A. Nagy
"Secrecy, Authentication, and Public Key Systems" 1979 -Ralph C. Merkle

https://nakamotoinstitute.org/literature/


Ya, Monero can't protect you from exposing yourself to KYC. That's external to it.

If you already have Monero, it's a great way to get non-KYC Bitcoin by swapping Monero > Bitcoin or even Crypto > Monero > Bitcoin

For forward privacy it's quicker(no premixing+mixing+remixing), cheaper(fraction of a cent), and easier(hit send button) than coinjoining and harder to trace if going Fiat > Monero > Bitcoin because *amounts and addresses are not visible on Moneros blockchain*. It's not merely obfuscation.


Permissionless Principle

"Bitcoin is designed to operate without permission from any authority. Its value proposition is entirely based on this property.

A market can be divided into permissioned and permissionless from the perspective of the state. For ease of reference the former is often referred to as "white market" and the latter "black market". White market trade, by definition, requires permission, and black market does not.

As a simple matter of definition, Bitcoin operations cannot be both white market and permissionless. Any person operating in the white market requires permission to do so. Bitcoin is therefore inherently a black market money. Its security architecture necessarily assumes it is operating without state permission.

The security of Bitcoin does not extend to white market systems. Any system dependent upon the value proposition of Bitcoin must also be black market."


I don't think Bitcoin itself will be captured. I'm saying any Bitcoin use *on white markets* will be captured.

I have faith that there will be a significant portion who want to be free, and that portion may even grow, and the tools will be there for them to use, but I'm not sure I have that same faith for people in general...


Whats the app called?


If you don't care about KYC, try Kraken

If you do, check out LocalMonero

If you can source other crypto, or already have some, swap them to Monero using trocador.app


Feel free to explain how you can remain sovereign if you can't ever take custody of your Bitcoin. But we both know you can't because that makes zero sense. It would just be a shittier version of fiat money.


I didn't even intend that as a broad libertarian/anarchist statement. I'm only saying it makes no sense to ask someone else permission for a permissionless money. If one is only going to make approved transaction there is no reason to use Bitcoin for that, just use fiat. If you are going to follow all the rules anyway, Bitcoin is much worse to use than fiat.

The Bitcoin Standard wont ever be a thing on white markets. Governments wont sit idly by and let it usurp fiat currency. They will continue to increase regulatory burden on their markets until artificial cost to use or hold Bitcoin is too burdensome. Or simply make transactions require "approved regulated custodians". White market use of Bitcoin will eventually be completely captured. You can see the  direction were heading compared to even five years ago.

It's either permissionless or it's not. And if it is permissionless it is not compatible with white market transactions by definition.


KYC regulations in crypto compromise privacy, undermine decentralization, and deter innovation by imposing traditional financial barriers in a space designed for openness.

Always avoid KYC.

#privacy #freedom #nokyc


Ok, maybe it was I who misunderstood what you were saying. My bad!


Feel free to continue living in your theoretical world

https://image.nostr.build/e8d6cef01dd0ce2bbcd6c75df2d55d3efd9158afda7ee50304e8e918ede63570.jpg


But I wasn't arguing that banking legacy systems are better than Lightning. I was comparing Lightning to L1s.

There is a range where node count is strongly decentralized and enough to escape any capture. Every additional node going beyond this range brings quickly diminishing returns. The number is not 1 node, but it's not every single user running a node either.

Was Bitcoin not decentralized a few years ago because it had less nodes? Is it not decentralized now because it will have more nodes in a few years?


You don't need laws or rulings.
Bitcoin was made permissionless specifically so that *you don't have to beg politicians*!!!
If you want to play the political game, vote and ask permission, you could already do that before and without Bitcoin.

Also:
nevent1qqsq0wvj296nng95kwpw7p9trkt7uqvw97vgzqjal86tmrj46da2ujgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqs3jmj9t


Ok, until that happens (if ever), then you're conceding shitcoins are not useless


I agree with some of your points especially about privacy. Things like Client-side Validation, STARK proofs, Rollups, and MimbleWimble are interesting to me because they're much smaller, don't require storing all data forever, or even on-chain at all

But LN does comes with a lot of unique baggage that L1s don't have:
-requires funded channels to even receive or send to begin with (very inconvenient, unintuitive, and annoying)
-limited in the amount you can send without your transaction failing
-no static addresses or offline receiving
-can be force closed onto the base chain against your will (losing money and time)
-can be rugged if your node is offline (or the LSPs node that you are using)

You can use 0-confs for 99.9% of transactions on BCH for instant payments. It's much safer than 0-conf on BTC because they don't have Replace-By-Fee and stuck with first seen rule. BCH also has Double-Spend Proofs that make it much more difficult to double spend. I think BTC really fucked up going full RBF.

Decentralization is not a binary. Something can be decentralized enough to evade capture. There is also the question of diminishing returns. Does every single user really have to run a node? Most BTC users right now don't run nodes and I'm sure you consider nodes distributed enough. Where is the goldilocks zone? Small world network topologies are probably the best bang for buck

There's also different aspects of decentralization. For example, node software and consensus process for BCH is less centralized than BTC. There are 5 major node softwares that are used for BCH. While 99.9% of BTC nodes run Bitcoin Core and Core acts very much as defacto gatekeepers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_network
https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.html


Ok, if they're useless where do I go to use their tech on Bitcoin?


monero actually works great for us because most of our more expensive monthly bills can be paid with it


Sim, a única forma de estar seguro é vender tudo ao mesmo corretor (pode ter de pagar alguns impostos se tiver lucro, dependendo do local onde vive), para que pareça que não tem mais nada, e comprar tudo de volta anonimamente usando métodos P2P e sem KYC

Se precisar de ajuda para ter algumas ideias, aqui está uma lista de algumas opções, especificamente na secção "⭐HOW DO I GET MONERO?". Você também pode aplicar esses métodos a outras criptomoedas:
https://pb.envs.net/?77f5415c0ced3d8f#ExwjPAZ5RE1sZsWkVLcDKUtL29BygJ38SPvhp876UgC7


Whirlpool only gives you "forward privacy", i.e. it hides where and how much you spend.
It can't hide the fact that you bought it and when. It can't take your name off "The List".


How do you enforce 21 million if you aren't sovereign? The vast majority won't be able to afford to take custody eventually.

It's the same way there is a limited amount of gold, but if majority holds  IOUs that limit is moot as banks can print as much as they want


Bitcoin without sovereignty IS fiat

Nothing is special about Bitcoin without that


The fact is they all offer things that users want that Bitcoin can't or wont do


Not really. Why should they? Im not

I get why you don't like pure shitcoin meme pump n dump coins/tokens, I don't either, but there are a handful of legit crypto communities out there other than Bitcoin. They do certain things better than Bitcoin. Or do things Bitcoin can't or wont do:

-Ethereum has smart contracts and rollups
-Litecoin has cheaper fees, faster confs, and MWEB
-BitcoinCash has cheaper fees, more TPS, safer 0confs DSPs (Double Spend Proofs), more decentralized node software and governance
-Nano is feeless, instant, and uses DAGs so extreme TPS
-Grin uses MimbleWimble so is extremely scalable and private
-Dai permissionless stablecoin
...and more

There are rarely maxis outside of Bitcoin, many in those communities are also Bitcoiners. You demand respect, but there are a lot of Bitcoiners who don't give respect to anything else, and don't even respect the cypherpunk vision of private, untraceable digital cash that came before Bitcoin


Yes I am, but you're conflating Bitcoiners with maxis. Not all Bitcoiners are maxis (Bitcoin-only crowd).


He thinks if you own or use something you can't ever point out it's unique flaws to maxis who think it is perfect

Nothing is without trade-offs. Even Monero.


I'm not a maxi and have never claimed to be. I've used many crypto aside from even Bitcoin or Monero that are better for different tasks.

So whats your point?


Me and the maxis going round and round in the comments
Poor middle-guy OP getting notification bombed for days

If you see this...sorry friend 😂😂😂

https://image.nostr.build/321cffa17e26a29be2d1bef8f32e052548a536770e27f5ead1f31dedf1553268.webp

https://image.nostr.build/8a90b1e5a48aec12454696ae0b3b2bac0f3de4b05db0afe7c5490e9d63f67744.jpg


Happy New Month, Bisq users! Wishing you a month filled with successful trades, secure transactions, and a wealth of positive experiences on our decentralized platform. Cheers to another month of financial freedom and privacy! 🚀🌐

#dex #decentralized #bitcoin #btc #nokyc #stacksats #nigeria #xmr #turkey

https://m.primal.net/HgaV.jpg


TIL that #Session messenger is deciding to drop their #Monero fork $OXEN in place of an #Ethereum ERC-20 token 🤢🤮

https://getsession.org/blog/upgrading-to-session-network


Timestamps in the description

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=LrLsS7-woN0


For sure better than Telegram.
Signal is pretty solid, but SimpleX solves it's few weak spots. Unlike Signal, it requires no phone number or any user identifiers at all.

It uses the same protocol as Signal too iirc so it has forward secrecy, cryptographic deniability, etc

A year old, a lot has improved, but here is a podcast with the creator if you want to go more in depth on the details: https://optoutpod.com/episodes/s3e02-simplexchat/


Supposedly "sealed sender" hides your social graph from their servers so they can't see who is communicating with who, only that you use Signal

You can also use a burner number/sms verification website that requires almost no information to register with Signal and pay with Bitcoin or Monero.

But yea if you want to remove any doubt completely SimpleX is a better option

https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/


Lightning is only easier to use if you're on custodial wallets or using LSPs like the majority of users. The frustrating task of running a LN node is abstracted away and done for them at the cost of self custody, and/or permissionless transactions, and any moderate privacy they would've had.

Everyone who uses custodial lightning anyway should just switch to eCash. At least you get very strong privacy AND can't be individually targeted for censorship. You can also do some neat things with it using cryptography magic like offline verification which isn't possible with LN.

For sovereign digital cash Monero is still unmatched atm and for the foreseeable future. Don't really see any competition.


No, there are fair critiques out there, but he doesn't have any

"shitcoin" basically drools from his mouth 24/7

Truly a critical thinker and intellectual giant of his time 🤤🤪


Yes, Cashu has very strong privacy, but it is not Bitcoin. They are tokens that have no connection to Bitcoin. It can only be used with custodians and reintroduces seigniorage. Even the creator discourages people calling it a Bitcoin privacy L2

My point was you can never improve the privacy of *Bitcoin itself* without hardforks. Layers always come with different major trade-offs versus L1 privacy like sovereignty, security, complexity, and usability so will never be a full substitute for L1 privacy like Monero.