What did you think I meant? That they can see sats you don't use on it? That should be obvious. And you're calling me a retard? lmao

They can see everything you do *anytime you use it* and you zapped those sats from WoS did you not?

Stop deflecting


Bitcoin isn't private

And it's difficult to use "privately" (technically obscuring ownership a weaker form of anonymity. Not privacy. Hiding identity VS hiding actions)

I'm just using these words loosely because you apparently don't know what private means and the distinctions don't matter to you anyway

This is not private:
https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html


Explain how digital fiat is private, open, permissionless, predictable, decentralized, and requires PoW to issue

Explain how fiat cash is digital, open, predictable, decentralized, and requires PoW to issue

Lol, yes Satoshi created Bitcoin to solve *checks notes*...reward miles...What a fiat mentality, ironically. A lot of merchants offer large discounts for paying with Monero 10-15%

Earlier you said Monero costs several dollars to transact, so it is very obvious you have never used it. It's usually fractions of a cent. Sovereign lightning is a UX nightmare that is why almost everyone uses it custodially or in a permissioned manner.


Seems obvious, and it's true for most cryptos and lightning, but Monero is an exception to that. You still retain full transactional privacy even when using a remote node that isn't your own. Although you still have to hide your IP in some way with a VPN, proxy, or Tor. But the remote node still would not know receiver, amounts, or sender.


Maybe you're right. You can just generate a lightning invoice to receive ecash directly into the mint right?


Too bad ecash isn't self-custodial. Major property of Bitcoin.


Receiver anon set is literally every Monero user that has ever existed because of stealth addresses

Sender anon set grows exponentially all by default: 16^N (N = number of hops from original transaction) 3 hops already gives us an anon set of ~4,096 and this all assumes you are not randomly chosen as a decoy for someone else during that time which would increase your anon set even further

And no amounts or addresses are visible on chain, period

Here search mine on any XMR block explorer:
89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4


You're truly retarded

fiat issuance = centralized, no PoW, arbitrary, and large spikes of inflation

Monero issuance = decentralized, PoW, predictable, and small inflation (all similar to gold)

fiat cash can't be used digitally, and digital fiat doesn't give you privacy


We've been warning Bitcoin users for ten years that privacy needs to be provided for at the protocol level. But because the protocol that does that is named Monero and not Bitcoin, nobody listens.

You all made your bed and get to lay in it.

nostr:nevent1qqswux9fewf6rruzxrek22pgjxpx0mfr93rlzu0atenc0vms7f8ajwgppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzqpxfzhdwlm3cx9l6wdzyft8w8y9gy607tqgtyfq7tekaxs7lhmxfqvzqqqqqqyrx5j0c


Bitcoin isn't private. It is a transparent public blockchain.

No shit
Monero never claims to help your privacy with any of those things. It gives you transactional privacy on chain. That is all.


Bitcoin privacy is like needing to be an engineer to drive a car or use a computer

What great design 👌


Lmao

You zapped him 100 satoshis from your centralized, custodial, fully-surveilled Wallet of Satoshi that can see everything you do 👏👏👏


Average XMR fee is a few dollars? On what planet?

Bruh, have you ever used Monero in your life? It's usually a fraction of a penny to transact.


To all monero reply-guys pinging all my notes:
* Yes I've heard about it
* Yes I also use monero sometimes
* Yes I still use, believe and root for bitcoin
* No, I don't need to read the same monero talking points over and over again, I get the gist
* No, you're not being helpful by commenting about monero everytime bitcoin privacy is discussed, it's just annoying and not helping your evangelical cause
* You are being just as obnoxious and a smooth brain 40 IQ Saylor-loving Bitcoin maxi
* No, don't leave nostr, we still need diverse povs here


You can be somewhat pseudonymous on Bitcoin but that has nothing to do with privacy. All actions are still visible to everyone in the world.

Monero is not meant to protect you from security cameras. It protects your transactional privacy on chain and nothing else. Everything you speak of is external to that and applies to every other crypto including Bitcoin.

You shouldnt need to be an engineer to drive a car. Likewise, you shouldn't need to be one to achieve transactional privacy. That is just terrible design.


Friendly reminder Monero issuance is predictable, decentralized, and less than golds

Scared of your own shadow


I agree simple auditable supply over everything. Even at the expense of users much more easily being discovered and thrown in cages/censored.


drugs are illegal too, but that never stopped anyone


Funny. Bitcoin, Monero, nor even Lightning are scalable in their current states.

If you think Bitcoin, even with it's resistance to upgrades and ossification, is able to adapt and overcome this eventually, why wouldn't Monero, which has no problems at all with upgrading, be able to?


Btw you only have good sender privacy if you run your own LN node. The way most user use lightning is not good for privacy (custodians and LSPs)


True, but what if you want to receive and have good privacy too? You need to accept ecash directly for that it seems.


Yes, you're right it is a transparent public ledger. In your previous reply you are confusing anonymity with privacy. They are two different concepts. One is hiding the identity of someone. The other is hiding the actions of someone. You can have one without the other.

Lol, Bitcoin is not only a corporation-to-corporation, business-to-business, or nation-to-nation protocol. It was supposed to be PEER-2-PEER electronic cash. Read the white paper please.

Lightning is not fully private even in theory, but more importantly it is not in private practice.

Fedimints are great privacy but sacrifice sovereignty by losing self custody which is a massive pillar of Bitcoin.


Transacting without permission from any third parties or intermediaries

Not my entire point, but Bitcoins, it's in the first paragraph of the white paper

Your last paragraph "there is no one stopping Bitcoin as long as they respect the law of the land..." fails to grasp Bitcoins value prop. It is either permissionless or it is not.

If we are relying on laws or government to secure it or use it then there is no reason for Bitcoin. Fiat money already exists and does that.


No you are not anonymous on L-BTC. It is almost exactly like Bitcoin onchain except only amounts are hidden. You can still see what addresses are transacting even if you don't know the amounts.


If you are relying on governments and laws to secure bitcoin you miss the entire point of bitcoin...


Satoshi was psuedonymous, but his transactions were not private. In fact we know a few of his addresses and how much Bitcoin they had.


Yea that's what I meant I thought you found places that were accepting ecash directly


Fuck it. Going to use more #monero for spending.


:monero:


They shutdown


It's a pretty out of date chart from 2021. Haven't been able to find anything more recent. But from anyone who dabbles in the darkweb it is obvious there has been a growing shift towards Monero.


I'm not sure  🤔


Not sure. Ossification?


Ecash is very great privacy, too bad that it is not self custodial.

Btw ecash is so new, where are you using it to buy stuff? Who accepts ecash? I would like to know


Tor migrates from Gitolite/GitWeb to self-hosted GitLab

https://blog.torproject.org/gitolite-gitlab-migration/


Stands for MimbleWimble Extension Blocks. Optional protocol level privacy that gives you very good privacy on chain. No addresses or amounts visible. It is also extremely scalable.

Slightly less private than Monero, because it doesn't obscure or hide input/outputs, but still a huge jump. Nice thing about MimbleWimble is that if you are not there to save the input/output data when it occurs, that information is lost forever.

https://tlu.tarilabs.com/protocols/mimblewimble-transactions-explained


Probably, but it's definitely up against the ropes within a week. Two of the largest CJ protocols gone. Bitcoin should just fucking adopt MWEB already. LTC already did all the work. This shit is so frustrating.


Monero is dead, long live Monero

https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/6738c99c554a656adb4a85a6be30b2f92db7ec7940f83cc9a9c1172889093e05.png
https://image.nostr.build/06cc8e656fc2781f9323aec3bbde678ebde86eb0631414ca1db05b736c0445e0.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/468faf8044b2250267743ae556492d05e60245ebad7b20af6ffd7040883b0f81.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/4546e4e58976e70d252c1a1dec4e86a1de8d0ddbb577227e85ff069b94a0a277.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/80fbb7770109c61e10775484e031bfed633b94e7883c562df5e7e4d6aba2899a.jpg


If you want to spend with privacy use Monero! 👊
Privacy on Bitcoin is dead! 🤨

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlM1WYAWcw&pp=ygUac2V0aCBzYW1vdXJhaSBwZXRlciBjb21yYWQ%3D


You don't gain anonymity. It doesn't hide sender or receiver so is still traceable. Even says this on their website...🤦♂

I swear, if I called a pair of shackles a "Bitcoin sidechain" yall would clasp them to your wrists just because of the name


📈
https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg


Do you understand the utility of monero now anon?

https://fountain.fm/episode/NwskGdWwAgtgIXfM5dap


That is ok if you think it is a feature, but it is not good for privacy and anonymity. That is the trade off.


Moneros growing daily transactions over time chart directly contradicts your first paragraph and price chart. It might have grown faster if price climbed, but it is still growing in use.

No, privacy and anonymity are distinct concepts. One has nothing to do with the other. Anonymity = someone with a ski mask over their face playing cards (you don't know who they are but know what they are doing). Privacy = your friend in their room with the door closed (you know who they are but not what they are doing)

Privacy is not possible on Bitcoin. It is a public blockchain. Everything that happens is visible. Nothing is hidden. Not even coinjoins hide anything. They just shuffle ownership. Layers sacrifice aspects of sovereignty. Either custodial, permissioned, or worse privacy than Monero so far.


Bitcoin bros will never grasp that an expensive surveillance NFT will never be money. It will become a digital pet rock. Coinjoins don't give you privacy.

https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/3d7a8b836098ef9b09f31bf7510fe0ca0fa8859b5f8b263dceeb42dfb2a497c8.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg


Buying and using Monero, privately

https://twitter.com/freedomtech/status/1785637104115953683?s=19


:monero:


Accidentally left out the most important fact: Bitcoin is not and can't be private with changing the protocol. Everything is transparent and visible to the entire world no matter how many coinjoin identity shufflings you do. All connections and amounts are known.


Your first problem is narrowly thinking price charts = network effect

Secondly, you can have privacy with an network size of 1, since PRIVACY has no baring on ANONYMITY which is a different concept altogether. One is hiding information about someone, the other is hiding their identity. You can have one without the other.

Third, this is not even true. Most Bitcoiners have no anonymity, that's why it is often called pseudonymous, because it is not true anonymity. And vast majority of bitcoiners do not coinjoin let alone every transaction. When I send a Monero transaction the receiver could have literally been ANY MONERO USER THAT HAS EVER EXISTED thanks to stealth addresses. When I send a Bitcoin transaction it is known who the receiver is 100% deterministically vast majority of the time. When you coinjoin only your paltry amount of peers are your anonset, not all Bitcoin users that have ever existed. Any mistakes they make also reduce your already small anon set

https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg


You need to lay off the hopium

Even if you can see them moving funds...so what? What are you going to do about it? You already know right now that they send billions to foreign nations and no one does shit about it. You think that's going to change? They will use it's transparency against the average Joe though! Bet on that

They're not going to let you use Bitcoin on white markets unrestrained either. They're going to restrict and burden it thru regulations, taxes, or outright ban it.

Bitcoins success is not inevitable and you do it a disservice to believe that instead of thinking adversarially like older Bitcoiners did before your ilk


If you can hide your Bitcoin, why couldn't they?

And if they can't that's exactly why they wont use it


I thought the same. Just dropped last month.


💯

Monero is one of the most adversarial minded cryptos out there right now. Hands down. Modern Bitcoiners make too many comfy assumptions that rely on best case outcomes. It needs to roll with the punches and adapt. Imagine Bitcoin having basically the same protocol in another 15 years in this hostile environment and still being around...I can't unless it is in a completely captured form

Current events should've snapped them out of it. Can't fuck around anymore.

https://dark.fi/insights/samourai-devs-arrested-is-a-wake-up-call.html


https://image.nostr.build/3d7a8b836098ef9b09f31bf7510fe0ca0fa8859b5f8b263dceeb42dfb2a497c8.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg


Who cares. Gold doesn't either and it was money for thousands of years. What matters is issuance is decentralized and requires PoW.

Bitcoin is non-fungible and has no privacy. It's a CBDC-lite surveillance chain.


Maybe some kind of steganography

https://blog.torproject.org/introducing-webtunnel-evading-censorship-by-hiding-in-plain-sight/


Reminder: COLDCARD is not open source.

#cybersecgirl #coldcard #opensourse

Open source encourages competition, and furthers development.

Open source is a foundational principle of bitcoin and the #cypherpunk movement...FOR A REASON.

Years ago if you tried creating a wallet that was not open source, you would have been laughed out of the marketplace.

Some history:

#Trezor created the first hardware wallet and released their code as open source under the GNU General Public License (GPL).

The GPL allows others to use, modify, and distribute derivative works, as long as the license terms are maintained.

#CoinKite used a significant amount of Trezor's code as a base for ColdCard, which they also had to release under the GPL.

Similarly, #Foundation (a new competitor) built upon CoinKite's work for their own hardware wallet.

This is the power of open source - it drives innovation through sharing and building upon others' work.

However, CoinKite was apprently so unhappy about this competition that they changed their license from "open source" to "source-viewable."

They did this only after Foundation competed with ColdCard in the same way CoinKite competed with Trezor.

Open source matters.

I hope Coinkite reconsiders.

https://image.nostr.build/c1c5ef6fe46db74c244ac7d47bfc2af68b0062467afdbe46a0dd75fbac0d7a12.jpg

https://image.nostr.build/4198294c1d14280261bcbf286f08799dcff5a6cd046df450589d897c3d530847.jpg

https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/blob/master/COPYING-CC


I agree it is extremely effective


says the surveillance chainer 👌


Full-Chain Membership Proofs Development

by Luke "Kayaba" Parker

https://www.getmonero.org/2024/04/27/fcmps.html


chip on their shoulders...says the two dweebs bringing up Monero in a conversation that has nothing to do with it for no reason at all

lmao


Lightning is not private. Especially how most use it.


* KYC on-ramps
* No protocol level privacy improvements in bitcoin-core
* Wasabi collaborating with Chain Analysis
* TornadoCash arrest
* Roman Sterlingov arrest
* ETF
* Monero delistings
* KYC all miners
* Samourai arrest

Are you sure we are winning?


User-friendly Serai DEX should be popping off sometimes this year. Haveno too.


Lmao. It wasn't a solution it was a description.

And most of the world doesn't really care about Bitcoin, it's a glorified stock market ticker to them. That's not the interesting innovative part of Bitcoin. It is a powerful tool for those who do understand it's real value props and want to use it for that. The rest is larping.

I can copy paste and save you a click if that's too hard for you:

"The value of Bitcoin over its alternatives derives directly from removing the state from control over both monetary supply and transaction censorship. Advantages include freedom from seigniorage, foreign exchange controls, and financial surveillance. These allow the money to be transferred to any person, in any place, at any time, without need for third party permission.

These advantages represent cost reduction through the avoidance of tax. Seigniorage is directly a tax, while foreign exchange controls limit its evasion. The state itself often claims political independence as an objective in the interest of limiting this taxing power. Financial surveillance limits tax evasion more generally. While Bitcoin cannot eliminate tax, or even necessarily reduce total takings, it represents a change in the nature of taxation. In any case, for those who consider the state a social good, the option to voluntarily fund it remains.

It would be an error to assume these advantages flow from the existence of a more efficient technology than employed by monopoly monies. The technology is far less efficient, yet it helps people resist state controls. It is this resistance that provides the value."


It's the worst of fiat mixed with the worst of Bitcoin and you get no advantage of either. If you're giving up every major value prop of Bitcoin by using Strike and WoS what is the point? They obviously don't care enough then. Maybe some day they will. You don't have to run your own node to self custody Bitcoin or use it without permission.

I'm sure they can easily accept cash or digital fiat for that beer and it is much more accepted as currency.

I completely disagree, but that's fine.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


You can also stand up to the bully at the same time. It isn't mutually exclusive. You can chew gum and walk.

Samourai tools had no affect over whether your Bitcoin was KYC vs non-KYC

As if a house is the only thing you can buy with Bitcoin.

Why would you want to make it easier for them to know about your finances? It's an information war. The less they know the better it is for you.

Yea they can't seize your keys in theory, but 99% of Bitcoiners would give up their keys under duress with the threat of prison looming over them, confiscation of other property (or even worse in other countries). Bypass this scenario completely by being private and/or anonymous.


It's a voluntary network. That's what is important. Anyone is free to join or leave at any moment. Anyone is free to swap for another crypto or fork if they don't agree and the devs cant do a damn thing to stop them. That's exactly how Monero was created to begin with. Users decided they didn't like how previous devs were doing things and left them for Monero.

Bitcoin was also at one time vulnerable to a very small state actor. Speaking of security budgets, Bitcoins is rapidly shrinking.
The only way it is sustainable is if Bitcoin price continues climbing indefinitely (what a thing to base security on), and/or transaction fees make up for it. If adoption continues and transaction fees climb with it this will price out the vast majority of the world from using Bitcoin in any sovereign manner.

ASICs also have many flaws...

-ASICs can't match the ubiquity and accessibility of CPU mining which is more conducive to decentralization. No large capital investment required.
-Ostensibly harder to attack, but if successful, much harder to deploy new ASICs to fight back since they're in such short supply
-Large concentrated mining farms are easy to co-opt and regulate for governments.
-Heat, noise, and energy draw make ASIC mining very obvious
-Two major manufacturers chokepoint
-Everyone knows what you're doing with that ASIC miner you bought
-Centralized mining pools. StratumV2 helps but isn't sufficient. Large pool operators control payout.
-Over half the total hashpower now requires KYC.
-Targeted mining censorship possible.

Bitcoiners act as if they aren't centralized in any regard, when they are in several ways, including defacto relying on core developers. Bitcoin Core is 99%+ of your node software. Even BCH is more decentralized in that regard.

Monero is not an "alternative to Bitcoin. It's not even a fork of Bitcoin. It is doing something completely different. Maybe you should start thinking of each network having unique advantages of it's own rather than this very narrow maxi mentality

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"
https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489

https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.html


You might be right in some ways

Both private
Both fungible
Both have an "opaque" total circulating supply
Both indefinitely have a small amount of inflation


If you value very inexpensive, private, permissionless transactions. Equivalent of digital cash. Mixture of cash and Bitcoin.

Amounts and addresses aren't visible on chain at all

Test it out. Search this or any Monero address:
89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

https://www.p2pool.io/explorer/


Thats not possible by just looking at either chain. There is no way to know Bitcoin moving from address A to address B was a Monero swap.


Similar to Phoenix. Better in some ways.

✔Self-custodial
❔Permissioned txns (You can use any other LSP you want you aren't locked into one like Phoenix. Or even better connect to your own ln node.)
✔no-KYC
❔Private (If you use fedimints, very strong privacy, but you lose self-custody in that case)


WoS:
❌Custodial
❌Permissioned txns
✔no-KYC
❌Private

Phoenix:
✔Self-custodial
❌Permissioned txns
✔no-KYC
❌Private

Strike:
❌Custodial
❌Permissioned txns
❌KYC
❌Private

You're leading him in a worse direction FYI. Almost no advantage over Paypal at that point. Should have at least moved him to Mutiny or Zeus.


"Just because some people use it doesn’t mean it will stay or that it is valuable for the majority of people."

You're too smooth to realize this can also be used as an argument against Bitcoin

Raw hashrate means nothing when compared directly. They use two different PoW algos.


Your first mover advantage claim has already been disproven with one major example; DNMs. There are also various other white market examples like Coincards, ShopinBit, SilentLink, etc where that is clearly being shown as untrue.

First mover is helpful, but is not some immutable law and guarantees nothing. Ask Myspace, Blockbuster, Sears, Kodak, cassette tapes, CDs, and countless other defunct technologies and brands about first mover advantage. You stagnate you get left behind. The market doesn't care if you were first and currently the most popular.


Don't take my word for it, but I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use Phoenix behind a VPN if the server you go thru is outside the US. How would they know the difference? I think they even have Tor built-in iirc. Not sure if Phoenix will actually block IPs trying to connect from the US or not.


And Bitcoins expensive NFT-ridden surveillance chain doesn't? 😂

🤡


I don't use Phoenix, but I'm guessing you can probably still use it behind Tor or a VPN if you want to?... they just have to officially stop serving US users to protect themselves.

But honestly that is just kicking the can down the road. These things will ultimately have to become decentralized to succeed in the longrun.


Money is the most saleable good. Neither Bitcoin nor Monero meet that definition.

Money is also fungible and private like gold and Monero. Bitcoin doesn't meet that criteria either. So it is not so clear what it is.

Bitcoin also had first mover advantage in DNMs, it's first use case, but is being phased out by Monero.

Monero is p2p digital cash. It never claims to be money.
Bitcoiners claims that Bitcoin is money, but that becomes dubious on any simple inspection. It is treated as a digital commodity by most.

https://image.nostr.build/3d7a8b836098ef9b09f31bf7510fe0ca0fa8859b5f8b263dceeb42dfb2a497c8.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg


It's surprising how many people conflate insults with arguments on here


You would think recent events would give you guys a clue...centralized solutions aren't going to work for privacy.

Samourai taken out. Now Wasabi and Phoenix scared into ceasing operations for US citizens within a couple days of each other. This is going to continue. They want to make it even harder for you to have any semblance of privacy and anonymity on Bitcoin so they can have more control over you.

https://image.nostr.build/72a3f056f34e06847dd133106f8866ef7293479caad204cbcc470f83be20dc83.gif


Your privacy and anonymity is also essential for freedom from the state.

Yea, but you still wouldn't want to give them more ammo unnecessarily. Less information they know the harder it would be to build a case against you or even know it was you to begin with. While Bitcoin is 100% deterministic in most cases and nothing is hidden.

6 rings? You mean decoys. I don't know how long it has been since you've used Monero, but it is 16 decoys atm including a true spender. Regardless, rings are for sender privacy and are the relatively weakest part of Moneros privacy tech.

They have zero affect on encrypted amounts and addresses (Confidential Transactions [the CT in RingCT] and Stealth Addresses) which are not visible, period. A nice thing about Pedersen Commitments used in amount privacy is it is also perfectly hiding, so quantum proof.

The most you can know from looking at the blockchain is that maybe Bobby sent a Monero transaction. Not who he sent it to or how much he sent.

Full Chain Membership Proofs are being funded for Seraphis upgrade. Once they are complete you won't even be able to know Bobby sent a Monero transaction at all.

https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/fcmp++-research.html

nevent1qqs9wupm9eu3lqy4kthf3ecytv4cuyz8trkmpmdjy7sdp3l4c9xym6gpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqsd8mlf8


Damn, we agree on something for once! 🎉


Seems like people need another reminder. What do all these below have in common? Heavy emphasis on privacy, untraceability, and anonymity in their titles and content. No resemblance to the Bitcoin we know today.

"Digital Cash & Privacy" 1993 -Hal Finney
"The Case for Privacy" 2005 -David D. Friedman
"Credit With Privity" 1996 -Nick Szabo
"Confidential Auditing" 1998 -Nick Szabo
"Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" 1982 -David Chaum
"Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Dining Cryptographers Problem: Unconditional Sender and Recipient Untraceability" 1988 -David Chaum
"Proofs that Yield Nothing But Their Validity or All Languages in NP Have Zero-Knowledge Proof Systems" 1991 -Oded Goldreich, Silvio Micali, and Avi Wigderson
"Online Cash Checks" 1989 -David Chaum
"On Digital Cash-Like Payment Systems" 2005 -Daniel A. Nagy
"Secrecy, Authentication, and Public Key Systems" 1979 -Ralph C. Merkle
"Computer Systems Established, Maintained, and Trusted by Mutually Suspicious Groups" 1982 -David Chaum
"b-money" 1998 -Wei Dai
"The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" 1988 -Timothy C. May
"The Cyphernomicon" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"Contracts in Cyberspace" 2000 -David D. Friedman
"Contracts with Bearer" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Crypto Glossary" 1992 -Eric Hughes and Timothy C. May
"Cyberspace, Crypto Anarchy, and Pushing Limits" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"The Geodesic Market" 1998 -Robert Hettinga
"The God Protocols" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Trusted Third Parties are Security Holes" 2001 -Nick Szabo

https://image.nostr.build/0b42740802185f77c303ef569959a8acabb6c454ecfd4a26efdaca0fc96ea9b5.png
https://nakamotoinstitute.org/library


Dodge master extraordinaire

We'll keep waiting for Bitcoin to solve the issues. Maybe another 15 years will do it 🕑💀


Yes, regulatory risk goes hand in hand with things that are harder for nation states to control and gives individuals more freedom (permissionless, private, anonymous, untraceable transaction are on the far end of that spectrum). You touch on this in your videos so I'm not sure why you're so incredulous about that when it comes to Monero.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Other-Means-Principle

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


Literally the same graph.

Looks like you would've made a killing holding doge from before 2021. Maybe no one should follow your advice anymore.


If you're not breaking the law there is no reason to even use Bitcoin (or soon wont be). Digital fiat is much better for complying with the law.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


Why, specifically, is Monero a weaker store of value than Bitcoin?

FYI, "because it's not Bitcoin" is a brain dead response that indicates tribalistic feelings are being substituted for technical understanding of the underlying technologies.


time to swap your bitcoin for doge?

https://image.nostr.build/26375e30f01e296d1b01c6ce3f77135960b5ccc86539a7d08f599590b440f277.jpg


Your argument would make perfect sense...if they also removed all other crypto they have with much smaller profits, volume, and mcaps than Monero

But they didn't did they


Completely dodging my previous point. What percentage of that $1.2 trillion will be used for totally captured permissioned transactions? It's all defanged

Gold has inflation and is a much larger mcap than Bitcoin. Gold is private and fungible. Total gold supply is unknown. Yet gold is winning. By your logic lets jump ship to gold.

I'm running a Monero node on an old phone as we speak so I have no clue what your are talking about.

Yes, because the market speaks once and never again 🙄

If you are treating bitcoin as a digital pet rock you miss the entire point of Bitcoin and the cypherpunk giants that inspired it

https://image.nostr.build/3d7a8b836098ef9b09f31bf7510fe0ca0fa8859b5f8b263dceeb42dfb2a497c8.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/06cc8e656fc2781f9323aec3bbde678ebde86eb0631414ca1db05b736c0445e0.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/305ddddd998a40b0bf14775adb40415acb42e752fa204feb384947fda6c2a877.jpg


I feel some kinship to Samourai. They were the first ones who explained the importance of privacy to me when I was a btc maxi. Probably would've never come to Monero if it wasn't for them.

We should help them out via donations to fight their legal battle or something if you feel the same. They were some of the few uncompromising Bitcoiners making a last stand and making it possible to have at least some "privacy" possible on on chain, probably the best, so for that I have a lot of respect.


To be fair the devs were doxxed public figures...

But the aftermath affecting Whirlpools users that didn't use their own dojo is definitely relevant to what you are saying. Samourai coordinator was centralized too (They were in the process of decentralizing it. Probably part of the reason why this happened when it did.)


Yea, Monero is being delisted from every major exchange because it is...*checks notes*... out of focus


Someone has forgotten the main value prop.

White market adoption means absolutely jack if your transactions are permissioned.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


IVPN is also another solid choice for VPNs

Encrypted communication with SimpleX and XMPP w/ OMEMO where possible...maybe Session (has a few issues but still better than anything average joe is using)
Even Signal is a huge step. It's the only thing I had success getting my family and some friends to stick to.

Tech is part of the solution, but ultimately there has to be a cultural shift I think...we have to continue to battle in the realm of ideas whether it is discussions occurring over social media, podcasts, or even propagating them via memes. We don't need every single person to agree just a critical minority that is fervent in these ideas. The majority is indifferent to most things anyway so have little to no impact they're just along for the ride.


Federal agency with a history of goading cognitively-disabled persons into planning terrorist attacks warns against using KYC-free cryptocurrency services

https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/fbi-warns-americans-against-using-no-kyc-services/


The pressure is coming to #Bitcoin  to kill it’s censorship resistance.

If you haven’t been focusing on defending or building for that, the time is here. Everything is lost if Bitcoin can’t remain open & censorship resistant.

We knew this day was coming, so let’s get it.🔥

https://media4.giphy.com/media/5WkAJnhwkpj0quGk1g/giphy.gif?cid=2154d3d7pk4ukrqrcgl7ykncrdql9cenopew0h42p38883ev&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


Great example. Anonero also fits that.

http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion


If you want an example of a wallet that whose distribution is really censorship resistant and could withstand a full force State attack, look at mysu: a monero wallet that is ONLY distributed via a Tor onion link or i2p torrent.

You don't have to like monero, but you can take a page out of their playbook and admire the lengths they go in their fight.

http://rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion/


and there will never be an ETF
of manipulative wall street statist mfs

BawdyAnarchist
@BawdyAnarchist_
·
4h
Dont know who needs to hear this but:

Monero isnt a BTC fork. Separate codebase different cryptography

No premine. CPU mining proved so resilient Tor uses CPU PoW to prevent DDoS

Auditable supply. Issuance trends to zero, forever

Inscriptoor resistant. More protections coming


Use money (by buying things and services) to support people you know, like and trust.

Use cash or monero for privacy.

#cashfridy #privacy #monero


monero


Wallet of Satoshi rugged any US users not paying attention when they left.
Phoenix just announced they are leaving the US yesterday so now everyone that depended on ACINQ for lightning payments (permissioned transactions) are SoL until they close channels (paying on chain fees again) and find another LSP (that will follow suit eventually), rugged if they don't.
As Ecash grows, rugpulls are guaranteed to happen intentionally, unintentionally, and via gov force.
This is the fate of any centralized entity.

No technology can guarantee "Store of Value" just by controlling supply since demand also matters and you cant control that. People are fickle. We can speculate based on historical price and age, but that never guarantees anything.

Gold has a several millenia strong track record. Bitcoin is hardly over a decade old. Gold also has inflation. You can't audit total gold supply. Gold is also private and fungible. Everything most btc maxis hate. Yet it is still a more popular SoV (it has different advantages to Bitcoin)

I don't agree. We don't have time to just wait around and ONLY hodl. Current events should make this even more obvious. Either Bitcoin gets serious about providing uncompromising anonymity and privacy thru something like MWEB, L2, or base protocol change. Or something else is going to fill that role and BTC will become a digital pet rock and succumb to the same fate as gold.

The tunnel vision on price is the Achilles' Heel of Bitcoin. If that is the main draw...Blackrock and co already have it by the balls. Watch the new TFTC with Whitney Webb she spells this out clearly to Marty Bent.


Yes, "p2p electronic cash" is the LITERAL title of the white paper. Well obviously the BCH gang was right weren't they? Look at all the custodial and permissioned L2s being normalized throughout BTC.

I could care less about that fraud CSW

The whole reason Bitcoin initially got as far as it did is great adversarial thinking. They didn't just hope for the best or rely on good laws to protect Bitcoin. The Samourai devs were public, doxxed, and big targets so of course they went after them. I feel that is just a larger point of anonymity and privacy being important wherever it is possible including the realm of digital currency. ~80% of Whirlpoolers ran their own dojos. That's also a big reason they can't go after them. They have no clue who they are or where the Bitcoin went (at least for the moment).

As for the "the austrian school" stuff...not true

https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/3d7a8b836098ef9b09f31bf7510fe0ca0fa8859b5f8b263dceeb42dfb2a497c8.jpg


Welcome to the party

It's even more aggravating trying to wake all you dense maxis up from your utopian non-adversarial fantasy

If Bitcoin continues being expensive surveillable and NFT-able it's NGMI


If your goal is private and anonymous transactions that require no permission...

It is a solution

If you like expensive surveilled transactions and NFTs polluting your blockspace, yea it's probably not for you 🤡


One of the biggest misconceptions about Monero is the tail emission causes inflation

#xmr #monero

https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary


Bitcoin, Monero, or any true crypto is ultimately and essentially a black market money. Nation states and the freedom offered by them is incompatible.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


Sure, but the whole point and literal title of the white paper is p2p electronic cash

You don't typically or necessarily invest in cash

The converging goals of the cypherpunk giants that inspired Bitcoin was an untraceable anonymous private digital currency


we are at a very precarious point with lightning and bitcoin for sovereignty and privacy.

i dont know the best ways forward.

simply running software wont cut it. using an LSP or a LNSP wont either.

i think people may need to host their own LNURL


They have both


Forgive me for being suspicious but seems like even more vaporware...

What wallets currently support them? Is it widely used? Because I would like to mess around with it. And what is up with bolt 12?


Yea seems so. I don't think CoinSwap exists yet though and not sure about the details on it.


MWEB is great. A huge step for privacy and very scalable.
No amounts or addresses visible on chain. Bitcoin should definitely add it Litecoin already did all the work for you.

But it is just shy of Moneros privacy. Leaks input/outputs.

https://image.nostr.build/08b9e0044b3f4d76527de5a3790527eaa9ce164c73456869eff24885582a5310.png


Halfway there with UnstoppableSwap

BasicSwapDex also exists (but not super beginner friendly, setup involved). Looking forward to Serai dropping sometime this year.


I'm still learning myself


If Bitcoins success hinges on the particular laws of a nation then it is destined to fail


Any day now 🕒💀


I'm not a huge lightning fan, but if I have to use it I would go with Mutiny. Seems dope. Cool that they added a mobile app now.


* KYC on-ramps
* No protocol level privacy improvements in bitcoin-core
* Wasabi collaborating with Chain Analysis
* TornadoCash arrest
* Roman Sterlingov arrest
* ETF
* Monero delistings
* KYC all miners
* Samourai arrest

Are you sure we are winning?


Sure it is, buddy


How big do you think your anon set is on Bitcoin? It's not every Bitcoiner. It's only as large as your coinjoin peers. And only a tiny fraction of Bitcoiners coinjoin much less every transaction.

Every Monero transactions is a "coinjoin". And Monero stealth address receiver anon set is literally EVERY MONERO USER THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.

You are the one with the tiny anon set.


One benefit to this, of many, over coinjoins is there is no evidence you even swapped your Bitcoin for Monero on either blockchain. Especially if you do this p2p with different peers using something like Bisq, AgoraDesk, or atomic swaps like UnstoppableSwap. Then just wait awhile and swap back in different amounts.


You don't know who is running Bitcoin nodes either. Your point?

non-KYC Bitcoin is anonymous, but not private. Anyone in the world can see your transactions and that is it's Achilles' heel.

https://monero.fail/map
https://bitnodes.io


Apparently you don't understand what a token is. Monero is not a token and has no tokens. Ethereum is not a token, but Ethereum HAS tokens on it's blockchain.

If your idea of auditing is simply running a Bitcoin node, you can do that on Monero and every 2 minutes.
Monero mined is briefly transparent so you can even literally manually count every coin as it enters circulating supply as well.
But let's get real no one does that not even Bitcoiners.


Monero has faults. Private, permissionless, and cheap transactions is not one of them.


Sim, concordo contigo, não confies nos programadores ou em qualquer outra pessoa se tiveres a capacidade de auditar o código por ti próprio.

A segunda melhor coisa a fazer é reunir sua confiança para que outras pessoas em todo o mundo verifiquem (outro benefício do código-fonte aberto que até mesmo a maioria dos Monero e Bitcoiners fazem)


Fuck, so disappointing...


Oh no! You can't zap someone from your custodial centralized closed-source surveilled Wallet of Satoshi

It's the end of the world how could we ever live without zaps...

🤡


Yea, I don't think the technical privacy differences of both coins played any role with the Samourai event, but the fallout of it is actually relevant (Samourai requires xpubs, centralized coordinators, etc)

Lightning being more private isnt even true theoretically, but more importantly it's not true in practice.


What I'm kind of confused about is I could've sworn they just recently decentralized coordinators. Did that never happen?


They each have pros and cons, but I believe Samourai Whirlpool was the only one with 100% entropy mixing


Let's think about the fact that Ethereum's TornadoCash is more censorship resistant than Bitcoin's Whirlpool. TornadoCash is smarts contract based, and still running today despite the devs being arrested 1 year ago.

If you say joinmarket 1 more time... Joinmarket does not even compare. What we need is an alternative ZeroLink coinjoin implementation that is decentralized from the start.


The entire developed world tax apparatus that was built in the 20th century and extends into the 21st century depends on ubiquitous financial surveillance.

They are not going to give that up without a fight. I have been saying at a number of conferences and podcasts that privacy is the main battleground for the next decade.

Back in the 19th century and before, money was mostly private. There were plenty of dictators but there was no major method of surveilling all transactions. Therefore things like broad income taxes were untenable to enforce.

But in the 20th century as money increasingly moved around at the speed of light, people needed bank accounts to keep up. It wasn’t all forced on them; they chose it. And those bank accounts were centralized, surveillable, and ruggable.

This allowed authorities to switch to income taxes, which require ubiquitous financial surveillance to work. And ultimately it allowed them to switch to fiat currency altogether.

Now in the 21st century, Bitcoin and its various layers allow people to hold and move around money globally without permissioned banks. They can do so peer to peer, or they can do so with custodians and open layers, etc. Unlike the base layer of fiat, the base layer of bitcoin is permissionless.

But this represents a threat to the entire current system of taxation and financial control. If bitcoin and particularly various private methods on top of it were to be adopted at massive scale, the entire tax structure and other things would need to reshape themselves around that reality. And so they won’t make it easy; they will try to criminalize financial privacy as much as possible while the network is still pretty small.

The only solutions are to 1) make privacy tech so ubiquitous that it can’t be isolated and can spread organically in a distributed way and 2) to apply legal pressure when possible so that governments sort of have to operate within the bounds of their own law, like the 1st and 4th amendments.


A adesão e a saída da rede Monero são voluntárias. Os criadores não podem impedir-te de trocar o teu Monero por outra coisa, ou de bifurcar o seu código.

De facto, foi assim que o Monero foi criado. Foi bifurcado de um projeto diferente quando os utilizadores discordaram da sua orientação. Os utilizadores decidiram sair e não havia nada que os anteriores criadores pudessem fazer para os impedir.


(cry about it)


They were decentralizing coordinators too


We can walk and chew gum.

There is nothing "larp" about having transactional privacy on Monero. It's the only coin that has it that is actually used.


Yes


Yea we all have the same attitude "Let 'em come!" They're going to increasingly go after users of both communities, except it is going to be far easier for them to trace your transactions Mr. Wallet of Satoshi


Saw this coming. The Feds and CEXs do not like coinjoins.

Founders And CEO Of Cryptocurrency Mixing Service (Samourai) Arrested And Charged With Money Laundering And Unlicensed Money Transmitting Offenses

"Keonne Rodriguez and William Lonergan Hill Are Charged with Operating Samourai Wallet, an Unlicensed Money Transmitting Business That Executed Over $2 Billion in Unlawful Transactions and Laundered Over $100 Million in Criminal Proceeds"

https://i.nostr.build/jYEwr.jpg

"In coordination with law enforcement authorities in Iceland, Samourai’s web servers and domain (https://samourai.io/) were seized.  Additionally, a seizure warrant for Samourai’s mobile application was served on the Google Play Store.  As a result, the application will no longer be available to be downloaded from the Google Play Store in the United States."

"RODRIGUEZ and HILL designed Samourai to offer at least two features intended to assist individuals engaged in criminal conduct to conceal the source of the proceeds of their criminal activities.  First, Samourai offers a cryptocurrency mixing service known as “Whirlpool,” which coordinates batches of cryptocurrency exchanges between groups of Samourai users to prevent tracing of criminal proceeds by law enforcement on the Blockchain.  Second, Samourai offers a service called “Ricochet,” which allows a Samourai user to build in additional and unnecessary intermediate transactions (known as “hops”) when sending cryptocurrency from one address to another address.  This feature similarly may prevent law enforcement and/or cryptocurrency exchanges from recognizing that a particular batch of cryptocurrency originates from criminal activity."

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/founders-and-ceo-cryptocurrency-mixing-service-arrested-and-charged-money-laundering

-------

"The company that owns Wasabi coinjoin is partnered with a blockchain analytics company so it is possible the analytics company could know where your coins came from and where they end up, where as Samouri whirlpool is afawk not partnered with such companies."

This is likely why the Samourai founders and CEO just got arrested and charged with money laundering and (unlicensed money transmitting) offenses.

--------

Never mix KYC coin with Non-KYC coin.

Coinjoin does not break your KYC links and the output UTXOs have a distinct obfuscated appearance. The only way to clear the KYC record is to sell KYC coin back to the exchange you bought them from. Mixing only gives a degree of plausible deniability, but can carry offramping risks. Many exchanges refuse coinjoined coin due to "suspicious activity."

"Bitcoin is often touted as a fungible and private asset and digital cash alternative, when in fact it is technically non-fungible. Each bitcoin in circulation has a distinct history attached to it ensuring that 1 BTC is not equal to 1 BTC. While coin histories can be somewhat obfuscated with tools like CoinJoin, the fungibility of Bitcoin remains distinctly lacking. This lack of fungibility imposes an immense burden on those using Bitcoin as a method of exchange (MoE), introduces a permissioned and centralized layer to the network, and destroys the confidence of everyone accepting funds in Bitcoin."

Coinjoined BTC is often blacklisted on exchanges and other services because it's considered "suspicious acrivity" that interferes with KYC compliance. Here are some examples.

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/#wasabi

(Monero does not have this issue.)

---------

#cybersecgirl #samourai #bitcoin #coinjoin #monero


Almost no user runs their own lightning nodes. I showed you the stats.

There are only ~18,000 normal Bitcoin nodes around the world. Almost no one can be bothered to run their own Bitcoin nodes, yet you expect me to believe that those same users are running their own Lightning nodes? Lol, please.

You are a great example. You supposedly run your own node yet EVEN YOU still have Wallet of Satoshi in your bio. Be gone retard

https://bitnodes.io/


I don't know about not providing any privacy, but you're right privacy could definitely be reduced from what we expect it to be...

You could always use Monero to "mix". While it's sender privacy could potentially be just as reduced by Sybil attacks, amount and receiver privacy are not affected since they rely on encryption via CT and Stealth Addresses. No centralized coordinators or extra fees either.


:POGGERS:


Holy fuck, Samurai's website and servers has been seized.


Right?


Not great, but worse case is they'll just reject you from participating. You can use a different coordinator if I'm not mistaken although in practice this seems difficult to find...


Joinmarket is not very beginner friendly imo. Monero is just about better in every way if you're looking for private transactions. It doesn't exclude you from still using Bitcoin to save either.


Privacy is selectively revealing what you want. It doesn't mean you have to be a complete shut-in and never say anything ever.

You're here shouting on a public platform too, dummy


Or use a background sync wallet like Cake or Anonero

But yea the sync times are annoying otherwise


https://x.com/WatchFund/status/1732391070216908886

https://x.com/WatchFund/status/1781152290520346912

https://x.com/WatchFund/status/1780766791179833367

https://x.com/WatchFund/status/1780405166216229337

https://x.com/WatchFund/status/1780054359985840636

XD


No it wasn't. You didn't have one.

You aren't a "Bitcoin Samurai" you are a WoS larp who is calling me "brainless" while only being able to come up with the same insult over the last two days and thinks name calling is an argument

Now fuck off


That is why I prefaced with "AFAIK" because I'm open to being corrected...

Your link is returning a 404 page so I can't see it

Where did I dispute that Liquid is not open source?
Where am I disputing that amounts and asset type are not hidden? Seems like you are the one being intellectually dishonest. I'm not sure if you are confused or just don't understand the concept of sender and receiver privacy. Confidential Transactions don't hide sender and receivers, so it traceable, as shown above ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE.


'Saying “just use Lightning” in a high fee environment is the Bitcoin equivalent of “let them eat cake”'

https://x.com/TheVladCostea/status/1781806663827107945


It only hides amount and asset type not sender and receiver. You can read this on their own website.


Do you have sole ownership of your Bitcoin? No? Then it is custodial. You can dance around the nuances of how many people control your Bitcoin, but one thing that is sure is you do not. It's still custodial.

Now moving on to the nuances of custodianship...do we know the owners of these keys? No, we are just taking Blockstreams word for it. It could all be the same entity for all you know which is as good as a single custodian.

Unless this has recently changed AFAIK:
-the keyholders are not known for Liquid
-the keyholders are fixed and cannot be added onto

Liquid is still traceable even if you can't determine the asset type. It says this on their own website:
"The addresses of senders and receivers further remain visible as well and can be retraced like on the Bitcoin blockchain."

https://help.blockstream.com/hc/en-us/articles/900001390743-How-does-Liquid-keep-my-transaction-data-confidential


They accept both through https://digitalgoods.proxysto.re/en

"We plan to add Bitcoin as a payment method to Tuta in the future. You can already buy Tuta gift cards with the cryptocurrencies Monero or Bitcoin or with cash via our partner Proxystore."


Paid for tutanota using monero. Good that I had some lying around from a trustless swap. It paid off!

It was my first real life monero spend. So far so good.


Plenty of no-KYC options

https://pb.envs.net/?147b5cb9663909d5#37W7W45rF8aU6oUUJ5rPSZqjoiCBxFuLcfsHTFMK6NsA


I know what you mean in theory, but in practice it's almost no different to how Bitcoin users audit it's supply. You just run a node like any Monero user would. Even among the small fraction of Bitcoin users who actually run a node, they are simply trusting their node software to properly audit for them. They aren't actually doing it themselves. There are ~1 billion transaction on Bitcoins chain right now and more are added every ten minutes. No one is actually auditing that. If simply trusting your node to audit for you is your acceptable criteria for auditing than there is no difference to running a Monero node.

Still cool that you are open to using Monero for it's transactional privacy


Bitcoin, Monero, and even Lightning can't scale today in their current state.

His so called problem isn't unique to Monero.

He also has a very naive understanding of privacy if he thinks coinjoins are "privacy"


Liquid is custodial and only hides amounts. It's still traceable.

It doesn't hide sender and receiver like Monero.

Monero privacy tech blows it out the water and it costs less than a cent to use.


If you're going to follow all laws they create anyway (this is impossible even if you try) there is no point in using Bitcoin or Monero. Fiat is logically better in that case especially as time passes and more regulations choke out any potential benefit on permissioned markets.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


Liquid is custodial and still traceable since it only hides amounts. It doesn't hide sender and receiver like Monero.

93%+ of LN users are on custodial wallets so have almost no privacy

Even if you are the tiny fraction that run their own lightning node, your receiver privacy is terrible, amounts can be probed, and channel open/closes leak data on chain.

Simply hit the send button on a Monero transaction and amounts and addresses are hidden even if you use someone elses node


Just as I thought. No argument.

Have fun being a cuck


Rather be a shitcoiner than a cuckcoiner


Obviously


Did you really just bring up Monero unsolicited?...

You're just as obsessed as any Monero fanatic 😂


Why am I brainless? 93%+ of users are on custodial LN wallets, so yes I was surprised. He told me in another thread that he actually doesn't run his own LN node (respect him for being honest).
And what do you know...you also have Wallet of Satoshi in your bio.

Just FYI the Monero community forked from Bytecoin because it ended up being a scam, but Monero used the same CryptoNote protocol (now with many many improvements)

https://image.nostr.build/173ee5957ddb22827fd76e91fdfbfe2106b6ffaf359fd467b66c587db8661c7f.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/ec374955f7d89fe171a03453e769cc2448ced236477be02165d7263c3a913e4f.jpg


Why are you constantly swapping in and out?

You should buy Monero directly with fiat, or swap what you're planning to spend for X amount of time with some buffer (just say the month), and spend from that.

Do you mean syncing is cumbersome? There have been several major speed improvements within last couple years, there are wallets that let you background sync so you're always caught up (like Cake and Anonero), and also light wallet servers you can run and connect to so that you don't have to worry about it syncing.


Yea, I didn't think you did.

I guess that's where the division comes from. There are Bitcoiners willing to use things that are custodial and permissioned, even at the expense of entire value prop of Bitcoin, as long as they share price

Then there is another group that are not partial and just care about the original spirit of sovereign transactions, will use whatever that happens to be, and don't care if it has the Bitcoin name attached to it


Lightning is not private at all the way most LN users use it (with custodians and LSPs)
And even when used with your own node it is still less private and anonymous than Monero

If you would rather swap to a custodial traceable chain rather than use Monero we are just different kinds of users I guess


Thanks for the reply. Don't worry about it, man.
I talk too much shit too.

Your strategy makes sense. I know it's unpopular af here, but I'm personally open to using altcoins like Monero for everyday transactions since you are still fully sovereign (or even Litecoin or Bcash) rather than custodial or permissioned L2s

Rarely see Bitcoiners truly open to their views and thoughts changing, so respect.


Anonymity is different from privacy. Hiding your identity vs hiding what you do. Both are important.

Aside from it being more expensive, slower, and tedious - only being pseudonymous is similar to being able to read text conversations from an anonymous phone number. You might not know who they are right this moment, but given enough time you start getting enough info to narrow it down (who they are transacting with, how much they are spending, consolidations, mistakes, correlating them with offchain data, etc, etc). And unless you coinjoin every single time you spend your counter parties will still be able to know your balances and who else you are transacting with for that wallet.


Why are you so angry? I said I was wrong. But your Primal address and touchiness around me asking a simple question definitely makes it more suspicious


😂

Ok, now I definitely don't believe you


Can I ask why you are using Primal for zaps instead of your own?


Wow, I found one in the wild! You run your own LN node? I'm wrong then


That doesn't matter. Someone else owns your actual Bitcoin with Liquid and can rug you. I'm guessing you also use lightning with a custodian or LSP, like 95% of LN users, which means it is custodial or permissioned.

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/1689337656319016960


Anyone Monero goons using Obtainium? He accepts Monero donations now if you want to show him a little appreciation. If you havent' heard of Obtainium check it out.

https://github.com/ImranR98
https://imranr.dev/monero-address
https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium


No prob, for practical resources on how to acquire and use Monero check out this link:

https://pb.envs.net/?147b5cb9663909d5#37W7W45rF8aU6oUUJ5rPSZqjoiCBxFuLcfsHTFMK6NsA


The great thing is you don't have replace your btc to benefit from the transactional privacy that Monero offers if you don't want to

In short, Monero encrypts amounts and addresses so that they are not visible on chain. Spenders are "mixed"/obfuscated.

Amount privacy: RingCT (Confidential Transactions)
Receiver privacy: Stealth Addresses
Sender privacy: Ring Signatures

A nice property of pedersen commitments used for amounts is that they are perfectly blinding meaning even a quantum computer can't break amount privacy.

You can dig into the details on these sites:
https://www.getmonero.org/get-started/what-is-monero/
https://localmonero.co/knowledge
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/


Happy 10 years of Monero!
And as always, do not bring your coins to a boating journey, matey!

nostr:naddr1qvzqqqy9hvpzppmnpqnkhegvaxa05lj7xa8yljl4axze5gv33u6t4m7sqp6xklf4qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcqqar8q3t2d3uxy2wkhg8


Happy birthday, #Monero!


It's crazy that my small dick still works better than the lightning network


I guess nothing is stopping it from becoming an L2 with sidechains (if that ever happens), but you would have to convince the current market to move over and that becomes increasingly difficult the longer time goes on.

So far, any L2s sacrifice some form of sovereignty for any privacy they provide. Monero doesn't. Liquid and Ecash are custodial. LN, in practice, is custodial or permissioned (LSPs and custodial wallets). And even using your own LN node offers less transactional privacy than Monero, anyway.

Monero is the largest crypto project behind only Bitcoin and Ethereum. It doesn't have a pre-mine or dev tax.


All these Bitcoiners seem to think Monero is great too:

"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo

"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor

"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos

"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell

"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee

"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser

"Monero team captures the current crypto zeitgeist perfectly, IMO. These hacker/developers; part ninjas, part revolutionaries, are integral to the economy and community" - Max Keiser

"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry

"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand

"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki

"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet

"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero: getmonero.org" -Balaji

"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc

"Surprising number of Monero lovers on #Nostr. It’s the only altcoin that I consider has a community of actual cypherpunks with similarly aligned values as bitcoin." -Guy Swann

"Monero has always been the altcoin outlier for me, never a shitcoin because I have a valid use for it that I can't achieve with #bitcoin." -Peter McCormack


Complementary. Monero carries on the original cypherpunk vision of digital cash the closest. Bitcoin narrative and development has drifted away from content and title of the white paper to pursue something else (SoV and speculation). Bitcoiners can continue to save in Bitcoin and use Monero for transacting (the domains where each shines).

nevent1qqsq0wvj296nng95kwpw7p9trkt7uqvw97vgzqjal86tmrj46da2ujgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqs3jmj9t


No, the difference is you want adoption for adoptions sake. You don't care what the end result is going to be = people beholden to intermediaries thru custodial adoption and CEX chokepoints.


You care more about Fluffy than any Monero user I've known. He hasnt been involved in Monero for awhile nor did he create Moneros protocol.

Lol @ backdoors

Let's look at some quotes from a few well known Bitcoiners and a few LN devs:

"it's quite terrible...~95% of users have their lightning address set to a custodial wallet" -Benthecarman
https://x.com/benthecarman/status/1638006709741289474?s=20
https://zapalytics.com

"The problems with LN..." -Paul Sztorc
https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/1719388665107947959

"Lightning Network -- Fundamental Limitations" -Paul Sztorc
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations

"I consider LN a done deal..." -SBW
https://njump.me/nevent1qqsv5jyfh9gp2qnhruevrph39s2mspzfw3e9mx5avg0wenltrdjnnhgsx4pzg

"I think this new class of replacement cycling attacks puts lightning in a very perilous position, where only a sustainable fix can happen at the
base-layer" -Antoine Riard
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

"...I am scared that even in Mastering lightning we won't be able to fix that" -Rene Pickhardt
https://twitter.com/renepickhardt/status/1298918019159207942

"Lightning = unreliable by design" -Rene Pickhardt, LN developer
https://x.com/renepickhardt/status/1726331107560542707

"Threats to Lightning Network..." -Alex Bosworth
https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1400467321093713923

"One of the biggest supporters of Lightning...Learned TODAY how payment channels work" -Eric Wall
https://x.com/ercwl/status/1725903544660705728?s=20

https://x.com/fiatjaf/status/1617295539472683010?s=20
"...All you can build is a half-working payment channel network" -Fiatjaf

“In the future, if you have this one-megabyte restricted blocksize and the Lightning Network, it is still the rich people and companies that can use lightning but the average user probably can’t.” -Tadge Dryja, co-author of The Lightning Network White Paper
https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/tadge-dryja-on-the-limitations-of-the-lightning-network


The most cucked thing I ever read. You sure you are "on the front lines of p2p dex development"?

Lol, now apply your logic to optional "privacy" on Bitcoin. Everyone isn't going to jump 100 hoops to attain it, "just tech nerds", like you say. And they aren't going to deal with running a LN node either!

If it leads users into using the thing custodially...IT ISNT A SOLUTION AND NOT SOLVING SHIT


Just wanted to add...everything I said only applies if you are using it from your own self-custodial wallet. Obviously you have no privacy if you are on an exchange (applies to any coin, this is not unique to Monero).

Acceptable to buy it on an exchange for some users (like on Kraken), but always withdraw to you real wallet first before spending.

There are also a lot of way to get it p2p and without KYC (recommended):
https://pb.envs.net/?986095e2935a9051#C5n1pSBatAZSXyhtz1dkh8A42BTNYUYGnjuFxZfKvaK2


"the only privacy you can actually have is the one that you maintain entirely on your own,  the thought of trusting some peer to peer network for privacy is completely flawed."

Here you go. Tell me any amounts you see that were sent from me (doesn't even have to be correct) and let me know any address I've ever sent to from this address. Goodluck!

89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

https://www.p2pool.io/explorer/


Ok, if that is the case then why do you keep crying about KYC CEXs? The true test and only unstoppable metric is how your coin is doing on DEXs and p2p markets. Regulators can impose arbitrary requirement and cut-off any coin from a CEX at any moment they choose. Adoption there means jack shit for permissionless money.

Using Monero, Bitcoin, or any coin on a CEX is the same level of surveillance. It's not unique to Monero.

If we are talking p2p use - using Monero OFF OF AN EXCHANGE is a world of difference for privacy and anoymity vs Bitcoin or just about any other coin.

You must not know how encryption works. No amounts or addresses visible on chain. I'll give you an xmr address to look up and prove me wrong right now if you want.


I don't need to come up with a better solution to recognize something is trash.

The creator Tadge Dryja is in the first quote if you can read.
Who gives af who it came from. Are the facts and quotes true or not?


Learn to use DEXs p2p and stop bending over for KYC

This is why earlier I said 99% of bitcoiners are p2p larps. You're a great example.


-Need to fund channels before you can even use (the fuck)
-No static/offline addresses
-Can be rugged if node goes offline
-Can be force closed back on-chain against your will (wasting time and money)
-Can fail to send payment
-Can't handle larger payments

The payment network of the future! 🤩

Bro, even LNs literal creator and devs think it's trash lol

https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/ln-blackpill/


Nice attempt to try and conflate LN with Bitcoin on-chain. LN is separate and nothing compared to it in volume and transaction count. Least of all in a sovereign manner.

Damn look at that channel dip from 2022 to now. LN is flat-lining, thanks for proving my point. Dead network walking and a majority of that is custodial surveillance ridden 😂

https://image.nostr.build/4546e4e58976e70d252c1a1dec4e86a1de8d0ddbb577227e85ff069b94a0a277.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/468faf8044b2250267743ae556492d05e60245ebad7b20af6ffd7040883b0f81.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/06cc8e656fc2781f9323aec3bbde678ebde86eb0631414ca1db05b736c0445e0.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/6738c99c554a656adb4a85a6be30b2f92db7ec7940f83cc9a9c1172889093e05.png
https://image.nostr.build/ec374955f7d89fe171a03453e769cc2448ced236477be02165d7263c3a913e4f.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/173ee5957ddb22827fd76e91fdfbfe2106b6ffaf359fd467b66c587db8661c7f.jpg


You started posting essays so I thought I would return the favor.

It's for the best. You would just end up looking stupid if you replied to it anyway.


-No amounts or addresses are visible on it's blockchain (untraceable)
-Senders "mixed" by default
-Untaintable (you either accept Monero, or you don't, you can't pick and choose based on history because all transactions practically look the same)
-And very cheap transaction fess (less than a cent usually)

Basically the equivalent of digital cash


No one is limiting themselves to only purchasing giftcards except you, genius.

Sick burn, that's what everyone was saying about bitcoin in it's early days too you full circle crypto boomer.


Have you heard of Monero?


You can't make digital payments with cash, and digital payments, including Bitcoin, aren't private

This isn't hard


You don't know the difference between privacy and anonymity apparently


That's why I always say only engineers should be able to drive cars or use computers 🤪


You can use p2pool on Monero right now. Can you on Bitcoin?

Still waiting on this for Bitcoin just like privacy. So maybe sometime in the next few decades 😴 I'll wait 💀


I responded to your Monero comment and didn't say a single word about samourai or your beloved brown knots in my original comment. But youre still seething too hard about someone else in another comment thread to read correctly. Yes, you should pay attention. Yea that's very different from me saying that I said you can "stop a monero update" by swapping (All we have to do is scroll up and read to prove you wrong).

How do Monero users "swim through swamps of KYC" if it is delisted everywhere? Choose an argument. Are we "celebrating being delisted" everywhere? Or are we not being delisted? Make up your mind. The fuck. You can use a DEX, you don't have to KYC and bend over every time they ask you to. But hey man if thats your thing I'm not judging.

Your entire LN rube goldberg network that no one uses without custodians or LSPs that can see everything they do is a tenth the size of Monero. Liquid is 99.9% empty blocks. And all your coinjoin protocols combined are still smaller than Monero. It's sad. Bitcoin is 99% p2p larps, speculators, and tradfi.

We can pick apart the totally bullshit "70% self run" LN nodes by just looking at how many Bitcoin nodes exist vs Bitcoin users. You're telling me that even though only a tiny fraction of Bitcoin users run their own simple nodes...those same users suddenly decide to deal with all the complexities of running an LN node? What are you smoking? Sounds fun

I'll humor you. Let's say that were true. Sybil attacks have absolutely zero effect on Monero encrypted amounts and receivers, but you're probably too stupid to know that. "Hey some user sent Monero", "How much?", "Dunno", "To who?", "Dunno". Sounds devastating! lmfao
Meanwhile poor saps are being thrown in prison for a Bitcoin transaction they made 10+ years ago (not hypothetical).

The computer you're running your bitcoin wallet or node on has AMD or Intel chips, genius. Vast majority of ASICs come from two manufacturers so I guess that makes us both huh?

https://bitnodes.io/
https://liquid.network/blocks
https://x.com/mikehassard/status/1767596230299824555?s=20
https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/


Forgot to mention your mining pools still control payout too. Centralized and custodial. And no, stratumv2 doesn't fix that.

lmfao


Idgaf about samourai, ordinals, knots, or whatever other bandaid cope solution is going on in btc land rn. All of those things exist because btc isn't private and therefore not fungible so you can readily do stupid ass shit like ordinals in the first place or perform targeted censorship.

I didn't say swapping "gets rid of a Monero update", but I understand why you had to pretend I did to make your stupid ass argument. I said you can OPT OUT by swapping. You're acting like you are forever stuck on Monero. No one is forcing you to use or stay on Monero or run their updated software. That's exactly how Monero was created in the first place. Users swapped out or forked off.

The 1% users having privacy is quite the reach considering Monero is delisted almost everywhere, and was just recently delisted from Binance - the largest exchange in the world. Bitcoin on the other hand - accepted at every KYC centralized exchange and their users love centralized custodial solutions like WoS, Liquid, and Ecash 🥳. Your blockchain always has zero privacy no matter how many coinjoins the 0.01% of your userbase does to obfuscate ownership.

No amounts or addresses visible on Monero, period. Sender obfuscated by default. You've had 15 years. Catch up.


Who cares? It's open source and permissionless. You can opt out.
If you don't like an update you can swap your Monero for a different crypto or you can fork the code. Not even the scary devs can stop you.

Meanwhile in BTC everyone is just as beholden to Bitcoin Core and Blockstream and two KYC mining pools control over 51% of hashpower...even BCH is more decentralized in node software.
https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.html


#Goldbacks and #Monero: A Perfect Marriage Between Physical Currency and the #Quantum Financial System

https://www.businessanthropology.net/post/goldbacks-and-monero-a-perfect-marriage-between-physical-currency-and-the-quantum-financial-system


A little tip that might blow maxi minds so fair warning: You can use Monero without saving in Monero 🤯


How does it prevent competition? Nothing is stopping you from buying more CPUs to mine or finding more competitive sources of energy.

The difference is this way it is more accessible to plebs vs ASICs.
It's more hidden too: ASICs are loud, hot, and draw a lot of energy. It's super obvious to everyone why you are buying that ASIC. You stick out like a red target for criminals and governments.

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"
https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489


Yes, and almost all those coins do something that Bitcoin can't or wont do


Yes it does mean the exact same thing. Bitcoiners just like to act snobbish and use the word as a pejorative. There are great cryptos and there are trash cryptos, but they are all crypto including Bitcoin. It's cringe when Bitcoiners pretend they transcends the category of a cryptocurrency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency

https://image.nostr.build/dcf698f836b070abfa7244ecac3cd328e77ecebd6ed095e1613983a3ac872fc9.png


...and here you are with nothing but an insult instead of saying why you think I am wrong

So I guess that makes us both?


Full Chain Membership Proofs w/ Luke Parker, Full-chain membership proofs, Monezon, Milei, XMR to charities & more!

https://video.nostr.build/37b359beb7e77bd7ea5a895ca087e7d174df3a8d0973a5e591ffee55dcbca1cc.mp4

👀Full Epi #160➡ https://youtube.com/live/rwA5L1LwSUs?feature=share

Sponsors🙏
🎢@cakewallet @monerocom
🎢@localmoneroco


Bitcoin is crypto. Stop being pretentious

https://image.nostr.build/d0caf1fbf38b76f7d892e76aadde0792ec9fd1be7806a02657f724984bad719d.jpg


Google is now “discontinuing the VPN feature as [they] found people simply weren’t using it.”

Who would think of using a VPN from big surveillance tech Google when there are KYC-free alternatives like @ivpnnet and @mullvadnet (which accept XMR, btw)?

https://9to5google.com/2024/04/11/google-one-vpn-discontinued/


Agree with everything you said. And I think many will like ecash (I use it for zaps right now). I just think it's disingenuous when some say it's a replacement for Monero or try to handwave away the custodial aspect.


One-time stealth "addresses" exist on Monero, but you can't see the "true" address by looking on chain. Try searching any XMR address on a block explorer.

But yes, Grin doesn't have addresses or amounts either and I like Grin because of it's scalability and simplicity and it still has really good privacy. Wish it was more popular.


Ok, yes, I understand you now. Must have misunderstood because of the translation. Yes, I 100% agree, Monero doesn't magically make you private in every aspect of your life. But all things equal it is more private and anonymous than Bitcoin. Less ways to mess up on it because amounts and addresses are not even visible on it's blockchain.


Here is the famous Bitcoin developer Peter Todd on his opinion on Tail Emission:

"Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary"
https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary


That's less yearly inflation than gold...potentially even negative if you consider lost coins. It's a big fuss over nothing.

If that still scares you then don't save with it - just use it like cash


It was definitely aided by Segwit. You can argue it was worth whatever advantage Segwit brought, but "spammers" were given a massive discount (tbh not even sure if we should call them spammers since they paid the fee which *is* the spam deterrent mechanism). Without Segwit it would've made it not possible, reduced it, and/or made it significantly shorter.

Anyone could easily say "I'm not running no 700+ gigabyte node". Why not 100kb blocks then? 10kb? It would make nodes cheaper to run and more decentralize.

5-7 to 50-70 tps, 10x, is huge for current users for the forseeable future wdym?


You are misinformed on much. No one can just arbitrarily "make more coins". Not even developers. Monero uses Proof-of-Work mining just like Bitcoin.

Monero has less circulating coins than even Bitcoin. ~18 million vs ~19 million

Gold continues to be "mined" for thousands of years, yet continues to be one of the most valuable assets (because it is unprintable and requires irl PoW just like Monero or Bitcoin).
You are conflating scarcity with value. If there is no demand, and no one wants it, it is worth nothing. Even if it only has a supply of one.

What do cellphones and things outside of Monero have to do with the transactional privacy given on Moneros blockchain? Nothing. This is a rhetorical tactic pulled by Bitcoin maxis. According to you Monero has to solve every problem in the world or it's not private which is ridiculous.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy


The person cucking you is fucking your wife...but he's blindfolded! All good!


Let me help you with that fren

https://pb.envs.net/?986095e2935a9051#C5n1pSBatAZSXyhtz1dkh8A42BTNYUYGnjuFxZfKvaK2


Ooof this is bad. A 144 GB database full of personal information about adult El Salvador residents was leaked. There are unconfirmed rumors that this leak stems from Chivo, the bitcoin wallet offered by the El Salvadorian state. Always remember that KYC is the illicit activity.

https://protos.com/hacker-doxxes-nearly-every-adult-in-el-salvador/


"Lack of verifiable supply" is bad...

...unless it's on ecash! Then it's great! But even better because issuance is centralized and arbitrary 🤪


This is kind of the idea pushed even farther with MimbleWimble on things like Grin, Beam, and LitcoinMWEB


You want us to ignore that it also incentivized bad behavior LIKE ordinals? lol
They really should have just simply raised blocksize to 2-4Mb instead of dancing around the what was the end result anyway

10x is small versus the entire world being users. But we dont have to support the world *right now* (if ever). That is not reality. There are far fewer user using the network (not a hypothetical) 10x is huge improvement for actual users.


Then why not 100Kb blocks? 1 or 2 Mb way too big. 100Kb is even cheaper and simpler.

Small blocks centralize who can afford to transact on chain. People not transacting on chain won't run nodes. This also centralizes Bitcoin.

There is surely a conservative way to increase blocksize without going crazy. Consider lower end of global latency, bandwidth, and storage based on current tech and go from there. Even Lightning eventually fails to work without ~100x increase in blocksize.


Zoom in on any price chart to see this


Savings(btc) vs checkings(xmr) model works for most users coming from bitcoin side

Month to month or even quarterly xmr/btc price is too volatile to predict what ill be up or down. It's anyones guess. You can just as easily gain a little money as lose a little money on that time scale. It pretty much evens out if you always do it.


I keep in fiat what I need for fiat expenses for the month with some buffer room (no sense in moving to Monero what I'm going to have to move back soon anyway)

Do you spend Monero often? If you're saving in Bitcoin I would keep a pool of Monero at least large enough to last you for the month/quarter and top it off at the end of that period. Saves you money/time/tedium and it is more effective privacy (in a sense) drawing from a pool rather than say swapping $100 BTC to Monero every time you need to make a $100 Monero payment.


I'm really glad that there are Whirlpool and Wasabi to choose from when it comes to coinjoins.
But GOD is it annoying to have to wait literally weeks and months to get an anonymity set of 10 in Whirlpool.
Wasabi takes maybe a couple of hours and my anonymity is sometimes even higher.


Sort of off topic, but check out this new Tor service for XMR -> LN payments called "Shade Strike". Haven't tried it yet but hear good things.

http://shadowg4szntvrqvuw52tajyiuiwtz3r54tcjlaf62jcxcctzi3lf7yd.onion/


"Perfect" auditability and "perfect" privacy are mutually incompatible. You have to make a decision on what you want and forgo the other. Or have something in between with the worse sides of both.
L2s don't solve this either as it has to make the same decision. Take ecash for example. Aside from the custodial elephant in the room - very strong privacy, although there are half-baked incomplete methods of auditing, it is not really possible.

Can't have your cake and eat it too


Yes, and the argument is that Bitcoin more resembles digital real estate

Menger/Mises are saying the exact opposite of your last point. According to them store of value *is not* a prerequisite for money. But if you think they are wrong that is okay.


"Store or Value is a prerequisite for it to be a Medium of Exchange." and "store of wealth function is a derived and not a necessary function of money" cannot both be true.

Otherwise, something could be a money without being an MoE and, at least according to Menger and Mises, this isn't possible.

If your position is that you disagree with them then ok


I can get behind that


I don't care about CSW. But Roger and BCashers were kind of right.

Are you a "never raise the blocksize" person? Or a "when the time is right" person?


What if you "can" technically exit, but the fee will cost you all the value of your UTXO? Essentially the same as not being able to exit

Extreme scenario #1: Centralize via small blocks (99% can't afford to transact on chain anyway...so they won't run a node)

Extreme scenario #2: Centralize via large blocks (99% can't run a node)

...or somewhere in between where we conservatively raise blocksize according to lower end capability of current tech and avoid either extreme.

Fat chance I know. An anon can dream.


"Cypherpunk, Lunarpunk & the dark forest w/ Juraj Bednar"

https://alexanarcho.live/podcast/cypher-7


1. Maybe so, but the cost (in time, effort, and money) of swapping currencies is now much smaller. It's not as big of a deal and continues getting easier so I imagine the "one form of money" thing carries less weight than it did in the past even if generally true. Compare swapping digital crypto online VS swapping precious metals/paper money irl. Take for example two businesses except; One accepts Bitcoin-only. The other accepts everything and later swaps what they won't need for awhile to Bitcoin. The second business has a much larger pool of customers and will likely do better, all things equal, even if they prefer Bitcoin.

a. yes, coercive force plays a big role in fiat, but gold is not exactly convenient for frequently settling debts in a global economy either. Paper money was bound to happen in some form instead of settling in gold for every transaction (although crypto changes that now)
b. There is always a lack of information

2. Not sure in what way Bitcoin is a better product unless you are specific about what that is. Better SoV? Maybe, time will see if it continues to hold true. Better MoE/currency? Not so much. Costly to transact, not private, and and weakly fungible. Doesn't seem as if that is going to change soon (if ever) considering the community not liking upgrades and wanting to ossify.

The technical details don't have to be of interest to users for their natural consequences to emerge and affect them. Nothing stop them from saving in Bitcoin and using something else as a currency either.

https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg


Many exciting developments for Moneros future...

Monero goons check it out. Starts around 11:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/rwA5L1LwSUs?feature=shared&t=670


Do you use software wallets with a GUIs? Then you understand the value of good UX for other areas like privacy.

If someone has to be an engineer to drive a car that is just bad design


Why does something have to become an international currency to succeed? Monero (or a crypto with similar properties - privacy, anonymity, strong fungibility) will most likely dominate black markets (AKA the only markets that are permissionless) especially with cash being phased out and the world becoming increasingly digital. The wider "shadow" markets are about ~25% of global economy and upwards of 2/3rds of activity in the global south.

Bitcoin might work as a reserve currency between enemy nations, but very unlikely that they will let their respective citizens use it unrestricted/unmonitored on their white markets. They're not going to start playing fair all of a sudden with a better money. Being valuable is not enough. How many businesses that we transact with everyday accept gold? Self custody will likely be outlawed or at least made unworkable as a currency with burdensome regulations and taxes in major nations. Just think of how you are automatically deemed suspicious or guilty-until-proven-innocent for merely owning large amounts of cash.

But yes fees, privacy, and fungibility are a few other reasons that I can't see it working as a currency (L2s have their own problems...). It's more akin to a digital asset/commodity.


Thats still a lot of friction for a normal user that's why almost no one mixes. Need the knowledge first on top of it being expensive, time consuming, and tedious. And you must maintain it going forward.

With Monero you just hit the send button and get real privacy (hidden amounts and addresses, not just obfuscation or anonymity). Much less room for error and even eliminates whole classes of mistakes that are possible on Bitcoin.

But i agree, both have pros and cons. I'm not a maxi and find other coins useful for different things just like different tools in the toolbox.


Maybe you don't always need anonymity, but privacy is very normal for people. People would be very uncomfortable if they knew anyone could just look into their fiat bank accounts, observed by strangers, or see other personal information.

You can't have a frictionless currency without strong fungibility either, and you can't have strong fungibility without privacy. Almost no one mixes and all it does is taint your coins.


Yes, I know, I just included for comparison


https://image.nostr.build/0369b84b4677884683b9c40b165a06ad30cd599a2f40564eb8981beebc99dac9.jpg https://image.nostr.build/26375e30f01e296d1b01c6ce3f77135960b5ccc86539a7d08f599590b440f277.jpg


Read the last paragraph of this article about Roger Ver’s book. It looks like #Zano (a still quite unknown #crypto) will get some free advertisement from this book release. https://finbold.com/btcs-hidden-history-hijacking-bitcoin-book-becomes-a-best-seller/

#Bitcoin #BTC #Monero #XMR


- A multi coin world literally exists right now, the last 15 years, and multi fiat currency for hundreds to thousands of years . Trending to one is only true in a perfect world if they are all functionally the same and they are not.

- You can say this for getting any crypto in general including Bitcoin (most users have to swap fiat). Binance, largest exchange in the world, delisted Monero and it's still around and doing fine. Atomic swaps, DEXs, and p2p exist and UX gets better every year.

- With lightning you must run your own node to gain any privacy benefits, offers no receiver privacy anyway, vulnerable to probing, leaks data when closing/opening channels. Vast majority use LN with an LSP or custodian anyway = much weaker privacy. Ironically unannounced channels, the most private way to use Lightning, offers no plausible deniability.

For your last two points...
-ASICs can't match the ubiquity and accessibility of CPU mining which is more conducive to decentralization. No large capital investment required.
-Ostensibly harder to attack, but if successful, much harder to deploy new ASICs to fight back since they're in such short supply
-Large concentrated mining farms are easy to co-opt and regulate for governments.
-Heat, noise, and energy draw make ASIC mining very obvious
-Everyone knows what you're doing/going to do with that ASIC miner you bought
-Over half the hashpower now requires KYC
-No p2pool. Stratumv2 helps but isn't sufficient. Large pool operators control payout.
-Targeted mining censorship possible

Good video though

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"
https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489


Mixers are not privacy because they don't hide anything. They just "mix up" your identity. Everything you do is visible on Bitcoin so more susceptible to tracing and mistakes.

It's like a naked person with a bag over their head. Onlookers don't know who you are yet, so you are kind of anonymous, but you're exposed and vulnerable. We can start narrowing you down by height, gender, skin color, birthmarks, tattoos, scars, rough age - then over time by who you spend time with, the vehicle you drive, where you live, where you work, etc (amounts, address type, wallet fingerprinting, publically posted addresses, who you send to/receive from, consolidations, etc).

It's not impossible to keep anonymous on bitcoin, but much harder because you have no privacy.


One pro about xmr-btc swaps is there is no trace on either blockchain that a swap has occurred (better if done p2p with different peers though or at least use different exchanges) while it's very apparent that someone has coinjoined their bitcoin in most cases


What do you think about Tors new "WebTunnel"? Seems like a sort of steganographic method for bypassing censorship.

https://blog.torproject.org/introducing-webtunnel-evading-censorship-by-hiding-in-plain-sight/


https://monero.fail/map

https://bitnodes.io/


Privacy and anonymity *is* survival. You're exposed to chain analysis and nation states. You keeping up with the trial  of Roman Sterlingov?

That sounds good in theory, but how many use coinjoins (weaker obfuscation, nothing is hidden) or the LN (with their own nodes)? 1% of users maybe?


Thanks for proving my point 👌🤪


Bitcoin is what you get when you larp about the cypherpunk ethos, but really just a fiat maxi in disguise 🤑 glorified speculators

nevent1qqsq0wvj296nng95kwpw7p9trkt7uqvw97vgzqjal86tmrj46da2ujgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqs3jmj9t


What if the share of non-ideological miners grow (natural outcome and somewhat true even today - largest pools are KYC) and think blacklists are okay, and even necessary, to deal with nation state acceptance (trojan horse stuff) so good for profits in the long term too


If you mean Fluffy, he is not the founder/creator of Monero...not that it really matters, but what makes you think he is involved with the FBI?

Not to mention the code is open source. It's the third largest crypto project in terms of developers and eyes on the code just behind Bitcoin and Ethereum.


In Bitcoin world it is often said greed = good. That people don't have to care about Bitcoin they just need to care about profit.

If those pools are the most competitive and paying the most (evident by their share of hashpower) why would miners relocate just because they blacklist?

Curious what your response to this is


XMR *is* indisputably more anonymous than BTC. By default and by protocol. Amounts and addresses are never visible.

The receiver of XMR could be any user on the entire blockchain thanks to stealth addresses.

For senders, the weakest part, you could be one of 16 in a ring signature (~6% chance of finding sender), but every hop increases your anonymity exponentially. After only 2 hops from the original transaction you are already one in 4,096 or 00.02% chance of tracing you (16^3).

The Monero bug you are speaking of only affected sender privacy (amounts and addresses are always invisible) and was only an increase in probability of guessing sender. It was not deterministic.

Meanwhile, Bitcoin by default has 100% deterministic senders, while amounts and addresses are totally visible, working completely normally without any bugs!

All Bitcoin L2 privacy so far has been weaker and/or custodial and/or permissioned. Ecash is the best L2 privacy so far, but is custodial and the mints can print tokens secretly.


There are a few other crypto that come close in privacy or even technically better in some ways (just very low adoption, not battle tested, or have other major drawbacks).

To name a few:
Zano, Beam, Grin, Litecoin(MWEB transactions), Zcash(z2z transactions), Pirate Chain(basically Zcash with default z2z txs), Ethereum Railway shielded transactions


Privacy, anonymity, and untraceability were heavily emphasized. The examples I gave were just a few.

There are ways to be somewhat untraceable on Bitcoin, but never private or fully anonymous (one involves swapping into and out of Monero if done correctly), but this involves extensive knowledge, time, tedium, and expense that most users will never do because of that. I just hit the send button on Monero and get a much better version of that for much cheaper.

Ecash is really great privacy, I mess around with it, but is sadly custodial and mints can covertly print IOUs. Ideally would want self-custody and non-arbitrary decentralized supply issuance.