Monero is just a tool no need to be upset.

It's picking up in an area Bitcoin is lacking in.
It wouldn't even exist if privacy wasn't always an afterthought. With respect - I've been reading your brother and you say it's just a matter of time for years...perpetually just around the corner.

It's hard to be angry with those who get tired of waiting and finally say "fuck this" and just build out and start using those privacy tools


Liquid is custodial.
Sender/Receiver not hidden.
Almost zero anon set, most blocks have zero transactions.


Yes fiat has low fees too, but digital fiat is not permissionless or private. Monero is.

Cash is private and permissionless, but...
Can't instantly send to anyone on the planet.
Can't carry large amounts or cross borders without risking confiscation and theft.
Can't easily verify authenticity.
Exposed to massive and unpredictable inflation.
Must carry specific denominations for change.
Can't use atomic swaps to trustlessly trade for other crypto like Bitcoin.
Different people can't simultaneously have true ownership over the same cash (multisig)


Bitcoin fees go to the moon long term


lul


All things equal Bitcoin will always be much easier to mess up privacy on than Monero

Coinjoins are ownership obfuscation, a form of anonymity, not privacy, nothing is hidden. It's also tedious, expensive, and slow. All for much weaker "privacy" even if done correctly

Monero has Dandelion++ that hides your IP address by default even if you slip up and aren't behind Tor which is nice


Super legit, but not trustless.
100% insured up to a certain amount.
They have a rating system shown for each exchange based on how often they shotgun KYC (if ever)

unstoppableswap.net is trustless

haveno.exchange and serai.exchange should be out sometime next year


Agree with your first two sentences, but this will only postpone the inevitable increasing fees if Bitcoin adoption continues to rise and blockspace is hard capped.

Monero users didn't "invent" KYC, sir

Gold has annual inflation and was the premier money of choice for several millenia. Monero has less inflation than Gold. Total gold supply is also opaque and indirectly relies on market price to determine. I think we'll be okay.


😂

Sorry I'll turn down the autism


There are DNM OGs that have been busted very recently because of slip-ups with their on chain bitcoin opsec so you're just plain wrong. If they can't maintain proper ownership obfuscation on Bitcoin you think the average joe can or will? Without privacy (hidden actions), anonymity (hidden indentity) can be unraveled using amounts, timing, and who they interact with. Both are important.

In some ways, Bitcoin is worse than banks or Paypal for privacy because at least the whole world can't see what you're doing and your  balance.

All the other criticisms of Monero you bring up, like ASIC resistance and auditability, I can argue for if you like but they have nothing to do with the original topic: privacy.

Like the fact that I know you or any other bitcoiner doesn't take advantage of it's simple transparency to audit. You rely on your node to properly do this like any Monero user. You want me to believe that you have made sure all inputs = all outputs for ~1 billion transactions? And additionally do this every ten minutes? Right


Ok, it's a neutral public blockchain that can potentially be used as a surveillance tool. Something that is not possible with Monero at least anywhere close to the same degree. Instead you're hoping and praying Bitcoin won't be used a surveillance tool (it will be) instead of what should be the proper cryptoanarchist ethos and approach of making it technically impossible to violate your privacy. Just like it's technically impossible to confiscate your coins without the private keys.

In a Bitcoin mass adoption scenario, since you're putting this all on the users instead of just building a proper tool (You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to drive a car), only a handful of users will actually be able to use it with proper opsec and benefit from it's meager ownership obfuscation gains (not privacy). No one got time for that. It should just work. Send, done.


There are often weeks, months, and even years where Monero greatly outperforms Bitcoin. The most recent was all of 2022.

Sure don't hold it forever if you like, but it's silly to be scared to hold onto it on such a short time scale, like minutes, where loss and profit are insignificant and wildly swing in either direction.


permanent?


Now do Bitcoin fees chart 📈


Withdrawing doesn't break KYC (the record tying your identity to a Monero purchase - how much and when) it only helps with what you do with it after (forward privacy). Similar to withdrawing cash from an ATM, the bank knows who withdrew, how much, and when, but not what you did with the cash after.

The best thing you can do to "erase" your KYC record is sell it back to the same exchange (and rebuy your Monero elsewhere without KYC like Bisq or LocalMonero) so it looks like you have none left and maybe lost interest.


It's a surveillance tool because it's a public blockchain, not because it isn't Monero

What's funny is all of that spying coordination already exists with western nations via Five/Fourteen Eyes, etc. And even if it didn't - nations don't need to coordinate to individually violate their citizens privacy


Bitcoin fees are trending upwards as well 📈 😅

That along with no privacy make it not so useful as digital cash


Sure, just as soon as you find my Monero 😉


Coinjoin is not privacy, nothing is hidden, you are just obfuscating ownership even if you do it correctly.
Relatively expensive, tedious, and slow.
Bound by a small subset of users wanting to coinjoin.
Obfuscation degrades over time as outputs are spent.

Liquid doesn't hide sender/receiver, most blocks have 0 transactions so no anon set, and is custodial

Lightning is not private. Especially for receiving. Even LN devs are telling you.
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy

Zcash has all the same problems of optional privacy. Novel cryptography. IP isn't hidden. Trusted setup. Dev tax. Going PoS. Blockchain was spam-bloated from 30GB to 260GB in less than a year (lol). Not used on DNMs for a reason.


Ultimately, the only real use case for Bitcoin/Monero/Crypto is on black and gray markets. Any white market use is temporary and incidental.

Anything on white markets is by definition controlled and regulated which defeats the entire purpose of permissionless systems. If it can't be controlled in some way it eventually won't be allowed on white markets.


It's a badly engineered tool if you need to put that all on the user. You don't need to have an engineering degree to drive a car. And if you're expecting mass adoption absolutely no one is going to use it Bitcoin privately if it requires all that friction.

It should just work.

Bitcoin can never be private btw it is a public blockchain. Everything is visible even if you coinjoin. You're just obfuscating ownership.


No prob, just answering because you asked!


Liquid also has almost no anon set vast majority of blocks have 1 transaction.
Sender and receiver are not hidden either.


Massive tradeoff to take on custodians and ask for permission.
Defeats the main reasons Bitcoin was created.


#Monero seems to be a hedge against #Bitcoin getting completely cucked.

I don't #Monero, but I can see now how disheartened privacy nyms eventually felt the need for a Plan C.

Sad reality.


You're both right.

Monero's inflation rate is *currently* lower than Bitcoin's (0.86% vs 1.75% annual inflation rate - will flip this halving)
Monero's circulating supply is lower than Bitcoins *currently* (~18.1mil vs ~19.5mil - this will flip in ~2040)
Monero's supply is uncapped, Bitcoin is capped at 21 million


Secret Monero user confirmed 😉


I don't know why this is said so often. Lightning is not private. Network incentives for optimal routing lead it to grow less private over time. Literal lightning devs telling you it isn't private.
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy

You're listening to a maxi who has casual knowledge of Monero explain why he thinks it's bad in a few minutes.
If you're really open to steelmanning the case at least have a Monero user there, who knows what they're talking about, to give some pushback.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PRKKlI-Jo


Just try it guy
We promise we won't tell the other maxis
We wont even know you did 🤫


Try out Cake Wallet.

It has an auto-sync feature while your phone is charging so you're always caught up quick and never far behind.


I would avoid personally. If I remember correctly they eliminate sync times for you, but they have full insight into your transactions which kind of defeats the purpose of Monero. Double check me on that though

I would go with Cake Wallet or Stack Wallet for iOS


He doesn't understand the difference between anonymity and privacy, apparently


gupax.io

Gupax is probably the easiest way to get started


Check out the new Polyseeds upgrade for Monero. Cake Wallet adopted it and so are other wallets.

Drops down seed words from 25 down to 16 words and you no longer have to worry about remembering your creation date/block height. You'll have to create a new wallet to benefit from it though.


How? By asking permission from your custodial centralized closed source and completely surveilled Wallet of Satoshi app?
Such a sad state

You can keep your 0.000001 cents I'll be okay 😂


Institutional adoption seems like it could become a reverse trojan horse imo

Maybe we need both to shake things up. Regardless, will be interesting to watch it all play out.


Fair, but I wouldn't say Bitcoin is exactly scalable either. Even with lightning.


"traded on exchanges"
Newsflash: Monero is one of the most delisted crypto
Wtf are you talking about SatsMcd?

"It's an unregistered security!"
Bitcoiners really become massive statists when it is convenient, huh?
And not even true. There is not dev tax. There is no premine.
The community that overwhelmingly gives financial advice is Bitcoin, not Monero.

Don't save in it and the scary Monero can't hurt you. Problem solved.


18,147,820 circulating supply as of this post

Can I help you with anything else, sir?


Bitcoin is more of an amber color anyway, not orange


Short answer: Yes

Long answer:
2 main options for privacy with Bitcoin right now.
Coinjoins and Offchain methods.

1) Coinjoins offer inferior "privacy". Nothing is actually hidden with obfuscation. Also slower, tedious, and relatively expensive.

2) Offchain methods have potential to have great privacy, but so far come with major downsides usually giving up some sovereignty. You have to give up custody, ask permission, or require intermediaries.
Ecash, the only real contender to Monero's privacy, is custodial.

Many other downsides I could go into with the two methods above. But basically if you want strong default privacy, without giving up sovereignty, Monero is the only thing that fills that role right now.


You have a fake picture and fake name

You can't "mUh pRIvACIHhH" anyone lmao


From a pragmatic sense - What's stopping you from continuing to save with Bitcoin and only using Monero for transactional privacy? The harshest SoV/supply auiditability criticism (valid or not) is made irrelevant

It all seems to be emotional kneejerking from maxis "mY cOiN gOOdER"


Nearly 15 years and still no privacy, Mr.SatsMcd
Patiently waiting 🕑


I wouldn't say never
It's an ongoing discovery process
The market is always reevaluating


I'm saying the new growing userbase would be "normie" users who only ever knew institutional Bitcoin. They would eventually become the majority.

Mass adoption means NGU and vice versa, but it also means the core of ideologically driven Bitcoiners become a smaller and smaller fraction of total users. Including those running nodes and mining.

That small core of original Bitcoiners could then eventually break away with a fork, like you're saying, as long as they don't care about a 95-99% drop in price. But even then, there would likely already be another crypto that served the fork's intended purpose operating outside white markets that whole time with a larger more established userbase, and better suited for the job, than the new fork (like Monero, or whatever that ends up being).


Hard forking is not a sure solution and a big taboo in Bitcoin...
It's filled with a lot of uncertainty and turmoil. Like a reverse Trojan Horse, it might be too late if a majority of bitcoin users/noderunners/miners become institutionalized. Any fork that follows the original spirit would likely be the minority and take a sharp fall in price (killing a major reason most are in BTC to begin with) just like what happened with Bitcoin Cash.

White markets are subject to capture by definition (you are obeying laws and regulations if you are on the white market) no matter the crypto. If a nation state can't find a way to capture it, it eventually won't be allowed on white markets (see the delistings of Monero and other privacy coins from exchanges in the EU).

It's easier to control Bitcoin because of it's lack of privacy. Canadian trucker fiasco was a taste of this. Privacy + anonymity is required for any serious censorship resistance.

Recent example:
https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-mining-pool-f2pool-acknowledges-ofac-transaction-censorship-backpedals-after-community-backlash/

The monetary friction of non-fungible cryptos is also a big problem. You'll have to always worry about the source of your bitcoin. This will eventually lead to drastically different market prices for "clean" and "tainted" Bitcoin.


Agree, don't buy it

It's not private or fungible so shares that same problem with Bitcoin 😉


I'm mostly a Monero guy so don't have a strong opinion either way, but from the little I understand, Nano is a better Kaspa in terms of scalability (~80x-800x more tps), transaction speed(<500ms), and transaction fees(no fees)


All good points, but they apply just as much to Monero hard forks

If you don't like Monero you are free not to use it, you can fork it, or opt out by swapping your existing Monero. Let the free market work.

Incompatibilities exists here just like they would in any free market.


Yea, not private either...and the community seems very naive about this in general.
It definitely has it's own share of problems. I at least respect their efforts towards true utility. And community seems genuine. They arent just some pump and dump scam. Never see Nano heads talking about price.

Nano uses DPoS for voting. A form of PoS which I don't like either.

The tech itself is more interesting to me. Instant transactions via DAGs and feeless txs that are spam proof are something almost no crypto is doing. Maybe XMR could use them to improve without the PoS stuff.

I try to keep my mind open. I'm no Nano expert though.

@atxmj, @mira_hurley, @Ghostbanned7, and @vinibarbosabr (xmr and nano guy) are great follows on Twitter to learn more about it.


Monero CCS escrow discussion continues. Read through it and give your opinions:

https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/935


Depends on your needs

SimpleLogin is an email alias, so it is hiding your real email from others but also directly tied to it. SimpleLogin says they don't access any info, but we can't verify that. Best to assume and keep in mind they know which aliases belong to your email if you aren't self-hosting. I think it is still useful for everyday stuff.
simplelogin.io/faq
simplelogin.io/privacy

Burner emails on the other hand aren't tied to your email. If you want no connection to your email, burner emails like the ones above are the way to go. Downside is they're usually only temporary.

Also, check out Addy, a competitor to SimpleLogin. You can pay with Bitcoin or even Monero if inclined. They answers a lot of questions here:
addy.io/faq
addy.io/privacy


I might've been the one he blocked because I corrected him earlier when he accused Monero of inheriting the premine blockchain of Bytecoin.

He also larps like he takes advantage of Bitcoin's transparency to verify supply. Maybe that got him mad enough to block me. So fragile.


Why should anyone here trust your shit opinions when you revealed earlier that you don't know the most basic facts about Monero?

No Monero user has ever said to spend all your money, larp


Vexl has Monero trading? Cool, I didn't realize that. Assumed it was Bitcoin only


Mullvad and IVPN are probably the very few I would recommend...

No personal info needed not even an email, you can pay with Bitcoin or Monero, open source, has servers outside of five eyes countries, RAM-only, multihop available, based out of good legal jurisdiction with strong privacy laws, they at least claim they're prepared to shutdown if ever forced to start spying on users

Of course this is all still not trustless, just as trust minimized and transparent as possible. Anything serious Tor or I2P, but I'm sure you already know this.

Not out yet, but this also looks interesting and it might have some potential:
obscuravpn.io


LocalMonero/AgoraDesk


Or just save with Bitcoin and spend with Monero. Best of both. Makes your concerns of consensus change (valid or not) moot if you aren't accumulating it.


"Privacy is not given, it must be taken."
Exactly why I use Monero.
I'm not going to beg Bitcoin Core, Blockstream, and the NGU institutional squad for privacy.

Optional privacy and layers don't solve fungibility.

Monero was a codebase fork. It didn't inherit Bytecoin's blockchain doofus. So no to the premine.

You verify Bitcoin by relying on your node to do it for you. Exactly like any Monero user. No Bitcoiner is taking advantage of it's simple transparency to verify supply. You went through hundreds of millions of transactions inside 800,000+ blocks and made sure all inputs = all outputs yourself? You do this every ten minutes?

Lol, please, you depend on a node to do this just as much as any Monero user.

Be gone larp


A differenza di Bitcoin, Monero nasconde completamente gli importi e gli indirizzi utilizzando una forte crittografia (Confidential Transactions e Stealth Addresses) in modo che non siano visibili sulla blockchain. Questo avviene per impostazione predefinita ogni volta che si verifica una transazione.

Inoltre, le commissioni di transazione costano in media meno di un centesimo. I tempi di conferma sono di ~2 minuti.

Non esitate a verificare di persona.


custodial


Most maxis either don't understand or are in denial about your last paragraph. Fungibility and privacy are so important for money and refreshing to see this said. Hope that one day Bitcoin will have both.


Nope and neither does Bitcoin 👍

What's the benefit for the masses to adopt Bitcoin, Monero, or Lightning over tradfi apps if most don't care about self custody and permissionless p2p transactions anyway?

Payment apps are feeless, faster, convenient, more people/businesses use and accept them, and they don't have a criminal stigma attached to them.

They also have central exchanges and ETFs that give them price exposure to Bitcoin if they want that.

🤷♂


Us waiting for you to prove Bitcoins supply without merely running a node exactly like any Monero user would
https://void.cat/d/JbuqUNA72CP1SfwVnqCaBa.webp


Didn't address a single thing I said. Pure dodge.

You literally started off this conversation calling everything a shitcoin and I'm sure you do this every chance you get, but then get angry when someone dishes back some much needed and legitimate criticism about your favorite coin. Look in the mirror guy.

You're right it's pointless to argue with people who don't have any arguments to give. I don't block anyone even if I vehemently disagree with them. Stay in your echo chamber.


Tethers ponzi makes up well over half of daily trade volume for Bitcoin propping up and artificially inflating it's true market price with tokens it prints out of thin air. Bad news for Bitcoin price when Tether pops.

Monero might never ponzi pump like Bitcoin, but it's price is actually grounded in it's real organic use not speculation.
It's also not an expensive NFT surveillance chain.

If we're talking about unfounded claims of backdoors...don't forget to mention that the NSA designed the SHA-2 cryptographic hash functions, that SHA-256 falls under, and oversees the government agency NIST that produced ECDSA.
Both used in Bitcoin!...But not in Monero!

Sleep tight 😨

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm#Concerns


You audit the exact same way a Bitcoiner audits Bitcoin. You run a node. No substantive difference. No Bitcoiner is taking advantage of Bitcoin's transparency to verify the hundreds of millions of transactions inside 800,000+ blocks themselves. They're just relying on their node to do that for them.

No clue what point you're trying to make with that second paragraph. Makes no sense. Bitcoin is also open source and forkable.
Just because Monero uses more complex cryptography and math to verify (pederesen commitments and range proofs) doesn't mean you can arbitrarily and trivially trick anyone with a malicious copy. Any fake amounts would be invalidated.

I'm not attacking you either I'm just trying to understand what you mean by these things. I agree, everything has flaws.


I can understand not wanting to hold long term, but you're scared to hold Monero for hours? Even a small amount?

There are months and whole years where Monero outperforms Bitcoin.
The most recent was 2022 where you would have been up 2.5x vs Bitcoin if you bought Monero early that year and sold near the end. It's anyones guess what will do better short term.

The hourly and even daily variations are imperceptibly small and can swing either way


So then what is the substantive difference between what you do when you run a node and what a Monero user does when they run a node?

You're both merely relying on your nodes to verify.
You aren't taking advantage of Bitcoin's transparency and simple math yourself to audit.


You can both selectively censor AND mine empty blocks on Bitcoin

Relatively more expensive thus harder to continuously do the latter. Also very obvious it's happening if that is your only choice.


It's for anyone seeking sovereignty that wants to actually use something that transfers value in a private, untaintable way while not taking out half their savings in fees when they use it. It doesn't need everyone on the planet to use it to accomplish that goal.

Normal people aren't going to use Bitcoin either when their Bitcoin ETF and CBDCs are free to use, quick, accepted everywhere, and they still get price exposure


Monero is the growing choice on DNM free markets where people have real skin in the game. It's even Bisqs highest volume trades after Bitcoin.

The whole world is never going to onboard to either Bitcoin or Monero. The masses prefer convenience over self-responsibility and sovereignty.
Nation states will never let them operate unrestrained on white markets. Global adoption is a fantasy.
https://void.cat/d/Sj6mcnBPis5Qy8HPa6866K.webp
https://void.cat/d/Fwrs9WnTxVtdPAqug8kKas.webp


Dude you don't even verify Bitcoin so who cares about what you can do when you never do it. No one does it.
All Bitcoiners are relying on their node to verify for them exactly like Monero users. Same category of implementation risk.
No Bitcoiner is verifying hundreds of millions of past transactions in 800,000+ blocks. What about new transactions every ten minutes?

Gold had more inflation than Monero for thousands of years and did just fine.

Not even your purchasing power claim is always true. Monero was up 2.5x over Bitcoin by the end of 2022. Depends on the timeline you bought and/or sold and changes all the time. Any forecasting on future price of either is just speculation.


They've already admited they have a "spam filter" so why does that matter? Their intentions are known at the very least


There is better privacy tech out there for sure.
But they are all novel and not as well understood or battle tested like Monero's tech.
None so far that are implemented well.
None that are adopted in adversarial environments by those with real skin in the game.

Amounts and addresses are well hidden on Monero.
The only real weak spot is Monero's ring sig obfuscation (sender privacy)- even though no one has ever been busted in the real world because of it. But hopefully Seraphis fixes this with full membership proofs.

For potential decentralization: CPU ubiquity > limited supply ASICs
"0.6 XMR tail emissions will not be sufficient" ***if the price remains the same. The price should gradually increase and growing *total* tx fees with more adoption. It's the similar assumptions that Bitcoin makes for security.
~0 block reward and limited blockspace for Bitcoin is not sufficient in 50 years either unless you only want the wealthy to be able to transact.

Idk why "wealthy individuals" are a unique problem to Monero when Bitcoin ASICs literally cost thousands and thousands of dollars. How many Bitcoin users buy ASICs and mine? How many of those have enough ASICs to even realistically be meaningful? Tiny fraction.

Along with the other problems of ASICs like conspicuous nature of an ASIC miner (power draw, heat, noise, stupidly obvious why you're buying and using one), easier to tightly control new supply, etc...


Big facts

Hopefully one day there is a strong privacy solution for Bitcoin that doesn't involve relinquishing sovereignty


Lol @ thinking lightning is a scaling solution
truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations

The masses are never going to choose self-responsibility and sovereignty over convenience. Or that nation states will allow it to operate on white markets unrestrained. It's a fever dream and not even necessary for Bitcoin or Monero to succeed.


Nope

But tradfi apps blow lightning out the water in both usability, speed, and network effect if that is all that matters to you 👌


You haven't discussed anything. You're just drooling out buzzwords and phrases like "austrian econ" and can't explain the first thing about it.

There are intellegent Bitcoiners out there you just aren't one of them, smoothy
https://void.cat/d/6RdYgy7HQXgjNyfjE5qqai.webp


Ad chartinem 😂 So predictable
If drooling out words like "shITcoiNs" and talking out your ass about "aUStRIan ECOnoMiCS" fails - run to the price chart!

I hope you don't actually use your Bitcoin because NGU applies to the fees too 📈💸
Probably better not to transact on something with less privacy than Paypal anyway


Still no argument from you let alone an "austrian economics" argument. Complete larp.

Later midwit

https://void.cat/d/9n4C9MvTxkZ1mUQvDLpYu7.webp
https://void.cat/d/WwqfGPNSJqmfbyyTZMky42.webp


You haven't provided a single "austrian economics" argument. You're just parroting buzzwords you heard on a podcast.

But hey you like austrian econ? Here you go!
https://mises.org/wire/why-fungibility-important-understanding-money-and-crypto


Na that's just a how maxis evade and derail when they don't have an argument


Ya ya ya
No one has ever heard that one before
https://void.cat/d/9hrZooQw63Sf3W3DEZ5gjS.webp


If all that mattered was how fast a transaction was we would all just stick to using Paypal, Venmo, CashApp, etc

Lightning isn't even the fastest crypto. Nano is faster, feeless, and actually final settlement.


A lot of these problems aren't fixable.
It's just the properties of how the lightning network works.

But even if you want us to believe they can be fixed, perpetually18 months around the corner, do you give other legitimate coins that same privelege?


There's also quite a lot of friction in high fees, optional privacy, and tainted coins. All not ideal if your goal is MoE/p2p digital cash

With atomic swaps growing it isn't that inconceivable to imagine a multicoin future where these things are handled by wallets automatically and seamlessly


All these privacy L2s so far are custodial, permissioned, or require intermediaries (ecash, liquid, lightning, etc)

You can have privacy AND sovereignty with Monero


No problem, not attacking you friend. I just didn't understand what you meant


What has more potential for decentralization? Limited supply ASICs that cost thousands of dollars to even get started or the ubiquity of CPUs that every pleb has all around us?

There are 2 major ASIC manufacturers that have a stranglehold over new supply, KYC your ass, and know exactly why you're using them. You get the sloppy seconds after they've been using them for a year if you're lucky. Then your non existent hash power is eclipsed by corporate mining farms and two mining pools that make up ~58% of blocks

The situation is not very different for you

Oh and those pools are already starting to censor, nice
https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-mining-pool-f2pool-acknowledges-ofac-transaction-censorship-backpedals-after-community-backlash/


less than 1% and continuously falling and approaching 0% over time

I son't understand what you mean Bitcoin can be 50%+1 attack too so what is the difference?
What do you mean by "without anyone participating"?


FYI Muun wallet is not a real lightning wallet. It uses submarine swaps and batches transactions on chain. It's cheaper than transacting on chain, but more much more expensive than lightning.

Both parties definitely do need to have a node online to transact with Lightning (if you are not doing it then someone else is running that node for you like with Phoenix or Breez. That means you're trusting them and they also have vision into all your transactions)

Fair, but if security and privacy don't matter to you, and you prefer convenience and usability, why not just use Paypal, Cashapp, Venmo, etc for spending? Way more people use and accept those than lightning too.

-Onramp to Monero directly with fiat noKYC and P2P using LocalMonero.
-Buy it using Bisq - Monero is their largest volume trades by far after Bitcoin.
-Simply swap Bitcoin or another crypto for it using a swap aggregators like trocador.app
-Buy at big exchanges like Kraken if you must, but I don't recommend since they require KYC. But at least once you withdraw they lose the trail similar to withdrawing cash from an ATM.

You can constantly swap back and forth if you want, but I don't do that and wouldn't recommend doing that bc its bad for privacy and also would be expensive to do that all the time.
Only buy the amount of Monero you're planning to use over X amount of time you're comfortable with (just say 3 months worth). The timeline you hold Monero is too short and the amounts are too small to be significant vs long term price action of BTC. For example, all of 2022 if you held Monero instead of Bitcoin during that year you would've made ~2.5x more. I'm not saying to do this, but just an example that these timelines are too short to matter.

Places to use Monero directly:
monerica.com (massive directory)
kycnot.me/?type=service
moneromarket.io
And freenet markets of course

Giftcards and virtual debit cards:
coincards.com
buy.cakepay.com
stealths.net


It's mostly dogmatic

All the fears some Bitcoiners have of Monero (real and not) can be greatly negated or nullified by simply continuing to save in Bitcoin and only spend with Monero

You get the best of both with little to no downside


How many people are zapping from their own lightning node? 3% if that? And even then reciever privacy isn't great

Overwhelming majority is involving third party, like WoS or even ACINQ,  surveillance into their transactions


Here's a few reasons of why Monero over Lightning

Usability:
-you need to have sufficiently funded channels to be able to even receive or send to begin with (very inconvenient, unintuitive, and annoying)
-limited in the amount you can send without your transaction failing
-can't transact without both parties being online at the time of transaction
-can be force closed onto the base chain against your will negating the benefits

Security:
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-ability to grief honest users with zero cost
-recent unresolvable critical security issues discovered that cannot be fixed without base layer changes
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

Privacy:
-bad receiver privacy, IP is exposed by default, and hidden balances can be discovered by a passive adversary
-centralization of massive routing nodes negates/reduces any help from onion routing
-relies on large centralizing middlemen nodes for succesful routing and cheapest fees (incentives opposite to decentralization and privacy)

Any solution to these so far usually come down to custodians or trusting someone else.

Worst of all lightning isn't even a real solution for scaling bitcoin for all the downsides you take on:
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations


sovereign UX too


So stupid.
This has nothing to do with the Monero being "breached"

If someone carelessly left their Bitcoin private keys on an always online Windows device, also sent those keys over insecure closed source messengers, and suddenly their account was drained would you say that Bitcoin was breached or a user being careless with their private keys?

Exact same thing happened here


I'm a freedom tech maxi.
Whatever tools work and are the best available for solving a problem I'll use.

If something comes around that I'm convinced is indisputably better than Monero at what it does I'll switch


Very cheap fees (under one cent) and strong default privacy

You don't have to give up custody, ask permission, or go thru middlemen either like Ecash, Liquid, and Lightning


How? Bitcoin doesn't do the job if you're looking for low fees, privacy, and fungibility without middlemen, custodianship, or permissioned networks


Cake Wallet is great. Stack Wallet and Monerujo are also popular open source non-custodial mobile wallets.

Try them all see which one you like the most
monerujo.io  (Android)
stackwallet.com (Android and iOS)


Surely nothing is perfect, but Monero has truly private amounts and recievers completely hidden from it's blockchain.

No part of Bitcoin is private. It's a public blockchain. Everything is visible no matter how many times you coinjoin. All that does is obfuscate ownership, but everything is visible.


Fix the high tx fees that will continue rising over time, zero privacy, and taintable coins and no one would need Monero


Ha! Doubt I'll be able to go
But place looks like a good time!


Btw every decoy used in a ring signature is from a real transaction that happened at some point on the blockchain so it isn't fake in the sense that they never happened

Also has a lot of advantages over coinjoins like being default obviously, no central coordinators, not bound by a small subset of users wanting to coinjoin, privacy doesn't degrade over time as outputs are spent, and no fixed size inputs required


Pretty much. Ring signatures are the least interesting privacy tech Monero has imo. It's relatively weaker obfuscation and only applies to senders.

Confidential Transactions and Stealth Addresses do the real heavy lifting. They hide amounts and recievers from the blockchain completely.


Your argument is incoherent with what you're saying.
You can't simultaneously think Monero will always be a niche irrelevant crypto and also think it will grow too large and popular for people to run a node. It's one or the other.

I've never told anyone to invest in Monero or any promises of get rich quick schemes. You'll rarely see any Monero users saying save or invest in Monero. You're supposed to use it just like you're saying.

Ok, then tell me, how do YOU personally audit Bitcoin?
I bet all you do is rely on your node to do that for you.
You aren't even taking advantage of Bitcoin's transparent public ledger that you love so much. That's why I called it LARPing earlier. You do nothing different from a Monero user relying on their node to audit.


But at that point you might want to just go some fully ZKP tech (without the issues of Zcash)


I agree it's not perfect either. It has it's own problems. I just think it's a better tool for a specific job. But no tool solves every task.

Onramping thru CEXes is not a problem unique to Monero. That applies to any crypto. Buy P2P noKYC to avoid that.

Ya I would use a Monero drive chain if it gained adoption and didn't have any serious tradeoffs.


It's not that I think it's not private. It's not private. But lets not continue that because you're arguing against lightning devs telling you it's not so you're too far gone for me to convince about that.

No, just...
1. Onramp to Monero directly. Easy.
OR
2. Swap enough Bitcoin for you to use for a few months or X amount of time you're comfortable with. You're paying one onchain bitcoin transaction for 100s of transactions. Saving a lot of money by doing that do the math.


What about a coin with high tx fees that will become infeasibly expensive in the future, zero privacy, and lacked real world fungibility.

Expensive, surveillable, and taintable. Sounds difficult for normies to use.


You still don't understand it's impossible for Bitcoin to be private.
For better or worse it's a public blockchain! 😂

Coinjoins don't make your transactions private. They obfuscate your identity (anonymity). But I can still see everything on the blockchain no matter how many times you coinjoin.


So your argument is that you believe Monero is and will remain an irrelevant niche? Then why tf are you worried about the size growing too large???

Na, you don't understand because you put zero effort into learning any of these things, which is fine, but you still want to give your uninformed opinion. Thats on you not Monero.

You audit Monero exactly like you audit Bitcoin. You rely on your node to do it. No Bitcoiner verifies for themselves the hundreds of millions of transactions inside 800,000+ blocks. What about every ten minutes?No, they just run a node. Same implementation risk. So, what is the real world advantage or difference? It's verification larping


So your argument is it will be so successful and popular that it will be hard to run a node?

Or do you believe Monero will remain an irrelevant niche?

If the latter then why are you worried about the size growing too large? (not even considering consumer tech is not static and protocol scalability improvements - a strength bitcoin doesn't really have)


Average $5 fees *right now* guarunteed to rise as demand climbs for limited blockspace

Not even bringing up the issues of zero privacy and poor real world fungibility

Unless you plan on never using Bitcoin (neutering p2p electronic cash the literal title of the white paper) those are all serious problems

The choices aren't Bitcoin or Monero only. You can save with one and spend with the other. Don't save with Monero if you think that trend will continue. No one is forcing you to hold large amounts for long periods of time. That's your weird false dichotomy you can't get past.


And large corprate ASIC mining farms can't be attacked or attack Bitcoin?...
General purpose CPUs are discrete and have higher potential for decentralization because of their ubiquity.

-ASIC supply is limited, tightly controlled, and require KYC.
-The two largest mining pools, ~58% of blocks, require KYC.
-Everyone knows why you are buying that ASIC miner. No on knows why you are buying a CPU.
-Obvious power draw, heat, and noise from ASICs.

F2Pool was just recently shown to be complying with OFAC and censoring transactions.
Impossible to selectively censor like that on Monero.
https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-mining-pool-f2pool-acknowledges-ofac-transaction-censorship-backpedals-after-community-backlash/

Neither is perfect. Either mining method has it's own unique problems.


What are the main differences between P2Pool and Stratum 2?


Buy and sell Bitcoin anonymously and without KYC on Bisq.

#dex #decentralized #bitcoin #nokyc #stacksats

https://m.primal.net/HRSZ.jpg


Yes check this out. Should be relatively easy to do if you already have btcpay

sethforprivacy.com/guides/accepting-monero-via-btcpay-server/


Bad opsec or inside job.
Would like to give the benefit of the doubt, but we'll probably never know for sure.

Silverlining - this has sparked a lot of conversation and change how CCS proposal funding is done that minimizes trust in the holders (multisig) or straight up don't require them at all (direct funding from community):
monero.observer/cypherpunk-transmission-017-rethinking-monero-ccs-cypherpunk-proposal

I'd prefer the latter and like this proposal


Lightning has so many issues because of it's complexity and abstraction that Monero or even Bitcoin and other L1s don't:

Usability:
-you need to open sufficiently funded channels to be able to even receive or send to begin with (very inconvenient, unintuitive, and annoying)
-limited in the amount you can send without your transaction failing
-can't transact without both parties being online at the time of transaction
-can be force closed onto the base chain against your will

Security:
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-illusion of final settlement (nothing is truly settled until on chain)
-ability to grief honest users with zero cost
-recent unresolvable critical security issues discovered that cannot be fixed without base layer changes
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

Privacy:
-bad receiver privacy, IP is exposed by default, and hidden balances can be discovered by a passive adversary
-centralization of massive routing nodes negates/reduces any help from onion routing
-relies on large centralizing middlemen nodes for succesful routing and cheapest fees (incentives opposite to decentralization and privacy)

Any solution to these usually come down to custodians or trusting someone else's node. Worst of all it isn't even a real solution for scaling bitcoin for all the downsides you take on:
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations


If I could, I'd bet that no LSP will eventually survive under scale due to liquidity requirements alone.

Unfortunately, it's hard to set a timeline for each one because some are backed by generous VC, others don't have that many users.


He leaves out a lot and recieved much deserved criticism when this video dropped that he never addressed or ammended.

More comprehensive video outlining Monero pros and cons with a bitcoin maxi and someone more knowledgeable about Monero there able to provide pushback. All in good faith (not saying your video isn't I just think he isn't as well informed) and lighthearted with a lot of good info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PRKKlI-Jo


"Rethinking the Monero CCS: A cypherpunk proposal"

https://monero.observer/cypherpunk-transmission-017-rethinking-monero-ccs-cypherpunk-proposal/


Nice list.

Last time I checked Keet isn't open source.
Unless they changed that recently. It's one big criticism I always see rightfully lobbed against them. Holepunch, the protocol they use, is though I believe.


I think Selene wallet created by a BitcoinCasher has good quick newbie onboarding. Thoughtful and very simple. Immediately opens to a QR code with an address first time you open.

A Monero wallet should be created for this or implemented in an existing one

https://selene.cash/


It fixes bitcoins lack of privacy, non-fungibility, and infeasible fees all while retaining sovereignty. Is that something?


If you're going to dodge all my previous questions I'll just dodge yours too. You've been doing it this whole thread.

Whenever you want to have a real conversation lmk


So just because i own some Bitcoin I have to pretend like you that major problems don't exist? Liquidity, adoption, and speculation are the main reasons I have any.

You aren't thinking clearly if you can't FUD your own bags.

We have way too much delusional euphoria with BTC maxis like yourself who think Bitcoin has already won.
BTC was originally great because of adversarial thinking. That's almost completely gone now.

It's widely acknowledged that LN isnt private by it's own developers.
Yea man it's been 6 years and Lightning is little different (maybe even worse because of all these custodial solutions). There are major things that can't be improved upon based on deep issues with the nature of lightning itself. OG devs literally quitting because they realize it is unsalveagable without base layer changes.
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

One of the first wallets to implement lightning discontinued it because of these same reasons:
note1efygnw2sz5p8w8ejcxr0ztq4hqzyjarjtkdf6cs7an87kxm988ws5rqsm0

Fat chance Monero is obsolete anytime soon (if ever)
Like you said - I guess we'll see what happens


And why would miners switch if they get paid more from those pools?
Will miners switch if they are personally not effected by certain censored transactions?
Probably not for both questions

Nothing is stopping that.
What is stopping two ASIC manufacturers from stealth mining with newer ASICs and selling them a year or two later to the public (as they are known to do)? What about nation states gag ordering and covertly coercing or paying to get them before the public?

Nothing is gaurunteed. There is only potential and incenctive.

It's easier to control specific-use limited supply ASICs than general purpose consumer CPUs that are already all around us. Everyone knows why you are buying an ASIC. No one knows why you are buying a CPU.


Yes, I do, obviously much more than you do!
By your own admission you have no clue what you're talking about lmao! Ok that's fine, but then why act like you know what you're talking about if you dont have time to look into shitcoins?

Do you really want to know why not those other privacy coins?
The tech Zcash uses (Zero Knowledge Proofs) is legit. Zcash implementation and governance is not. The gulf between theory and practice: https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#ZcashBlackpill

-Optional privacy (AKA majority of activity is still transparent)
-Vulnerable centralized corporation and known researchers/devs with a CEO (Electric Coin Company)
-Originally a trusted setup. The "remedy" via turnstiles is a half baked solution. Legitimate users are fucked as bad actors go thru.
-Indefinite 20% dev tax on mining (Founders Reward)
-Computationally expensive (Slow performance for shielded txs)
-Transitioning into Proof of Stake
-Not fungible
-Cryptography used is novel and not well understood or tested
-Not used on Darknet Markets (not chosen by the free market in highly adversarial environments where it matters with ultimate skin in the game)
-Fixed blocksize and fixed supply (high tx fees if demand increases)
-IP isn't hidden by default
-Someone has been spam attacking the chain for over a year and ballooned the total blocksize from 30GB to over 100GB in a few months last year. It is probably double that now.

MimbleWimble is not a coin it is a privacy and scalabiltiy protocol that some coins use like Litecoin and Grin. It is better privacy than Bitcoin, but weaker privacy than Monero's tech and has well known major privacy vulnerabilities you can look up.

Coinjoin is weak obfuscation nothing is hidden like Monero. For nothing serious it is fine if you want to pay more fees, wait longer, and deal with the tedium of coin control. You do you though.

There is a reason why no one uses LN on the freeweb.
LN devs themselves are telling you it isn't private, but if they can't convince you I sure wont.

Who said I own zero Bitcoin? Like I said a long time ago, you don't have to save in Monero to use it. Its properties make it a great p2p digital cash and Medium of Exchange (privacy, fungibility, and very cheap tx fees).


ASICs have 2 major manufacturer that require KYC to purchase

Antpool and Foundry mine well over 51% of blocks and require KYC

ASIC miners centralize on large corporate mining farms

ASICs are loud, energy hungry, and produce large amounts of heat (AKA big targets)

ASICs aren't nearly as ubiquitous as CPUs (lower potential for decentralization)

Sounds pretty insecure to me!

https://void.cat/d/QYShwCa6rVPcggLTMLaXT6.webp


Lol. So you're just admitting you have no clue wtf you are talking about or just intentionally lying. Don't hide behind being a pleb were all pebs.

Privacy was the central theme for all the cypherpunk forerunnners of Bitcoin. It's not some nice little thing to have. Its kind of the whole fucking point.

You know what also comes with upper layers? Major trade offs to core value props. Custodial solutions, asking permission, intermediaries and much more. Defeats the whole purpose of Bitcoin.

You're just as persistent except you're self admittedly talking about things you know nothing about.


You're just parroting words you heard another btc maxi parrot. You won't expand on any of those reasons because you can't.

"11 oTHERs usiNG It"

https://void.cat/d/PvifEF8BSsAA8egiwHsRdB.webp
https://void.cat/d/Ra4iznpnvghMC3Gm9ZDGcp.webp
https://void.cat/d/SK4hWGwNw8EDsPtZCAiAdk.webp
https://void.cat/d/AfKxxiH4xu43jFEUMdGhAq.webp
https://void.cat/d/CVo81D9LbwbJG8KdVbNTH1.webp


All I see are valid grievances. Can you dispute them?


Not as annoying as naive Bitcoin shills who don't know wtf they're talking about

There are bitcoin maxis that bring up good points and arguments but you aren't one of them


You need onchain transactions to move your bitcoin onto LN in the first place (taking on all the problems LN comes with)

Even after that you still arent safe. You can still be force closed onto the base chain against your will forcing you to pay onchain fees again!...Then to move it back onto LN you have to pay onchain fees...yet again! 😱

It's bad enough now, but imagine when bitcoin gets to triple and even quadruple digit fees. Ouch.

Lightning Force Close Detection Bot:
https://iris.to/npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v


Na, I'm more bullish on these Bitcoin fees right now 📈💸
https://void.cat/d/EKVu2pssSnPTwedxJcUE5e.webp


None of these have anything to do with an inflation bug...

I appreciate your desperate googling though


Show us these "bunch". Just because it's ostensibly easier to discover certain inflation bugs on Bitcoin doesn't mean you can do anything about them once they're exploited. Which I'm still not sure you understand.

You can't even trust yourself to audit, but you expect others are doing that for you. No one is checking the blockchain for you bro. They're just running a node and paying no attention like every Bitcoiner user.

If there are good reasons out there for not using Monero you are doing a terrible job of showing us


I guess you don't know about the early days of Bitcoin where it needed a hardfork because of a massive inflation bug

Or the 2018 hidden inflation bug that was secretly fixed and luckily never exploited thanks to one single good samaritan anon AKA transparency wouldn't have done anything if he decided to exploit it. Hardforking would screw over anyone who gave away real goods and services for the fake bitcoin and doing nothing would break 21 million meme. Both would be devastating to user confidence. No good solution.

https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice/


A Monero with a decoy selection bug (only probabilistic and only effected sender privacy layer) is still 1,000x more private than a Bitcoin with no bugs

Thems are just the facts

After our previous conversation I also hope you now know the difference between privacy (hidden actions) and anonymity (hidden identity)


Odysee (the company) is dead iirc

LBRY (the protocol the Odysee frontend is built on) is p2p and theoretically can't be stopped

As far as decentralized alternatives there are a couple listed here
https://github.com/pluja/awesome-privacy#youtube

There are also centralized alternatives like Rumble


wallet.mymonero.com is a web wallet, but be careful obviously not a secure place for large amounts of Monero and you don't have the same privacy as a normal wallet. You don't need to sync everytime you open it, but it's at the expense of their servers being able to see everything.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you for "zaps" and you can immediately send to your personal wallet to regain that privacy.


1) Check out Asgardex for Thorchain. They don't censor or blacklist like the Thorswap frontend.
github.com/asgardex/asgardex-desktop

2) Unless Bitcoin changes a lot of things on the base layer there are no full replacements for L1 privacy like Monero. Ecash (the only real privacy contender atm) is custodial. Liquid is permissioned. Lightning increasingly grows less and less p2p because of it's nature. And many many other problems I could continue listing that each one has that Monero doesn't.


stackwallet.com
monerujo.io
cakewallet.com

Check these out they are all better options imo. Cake and Stack are multicoin but have Monero and Bitcoin/Monero only wallets too if you care about that stuff.

If you want something even more secure/hardcore check out Anonero.
   "-MANDATORY TOR/I2P
    -NO 3RD-PARTY SERVICES
    -REQUIRED PASSPHRASE
    -POLYSEED MNEMONIC
    -NO SUBADDRESS REUSE
    -ENCRYPTED BACKUPS
    -OFFLINE MODE
    -COIN CONTROL
    -SECURE SYNCING
    -AIRGAPPED TRANSACTIONS"

anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion


A razão pela qual o Monero foi criado foi para ser imparável contra as proibições

Compre p2p e noKYC e nada disso será um problema

agoradesk.com/buy-monero-with-eur-in-portugal
bisq.network
peachbitcoin.com


If you think that trend will continue then don't use Monero to save. Problem solved. It's not rocket science.

Non fungible surveillance chains with $15 transaction fees sound awefully shitcoiny to me


Less than Bitcoin

~18,147,820


Spend more time, money, and effort all to end up with inferior privacy. No thanks.

Even an opsec bitcoin god that jumps thirty hoops to obfuscate their transactions still has worse privacy than the most retarded Monero user hitting the send button

Lightning devs are literally telling you that lightning is not private and you're still in denial


Dude first off privacy is different from anonymity. Bitcoin is a public blockchain. All connections and amounts are visible to anyone in the world. Can't ever truly be private.

Second, do you think all of the Bitcoin network is your anonymity set? No, your anon set is the peers that actively particpate in your coinjoin rounds. Which is like what? 0.000000001% of users? Your psuedonymity is not as good as you think.

Unannounced lightning channels are not private from anyone you are interacting with that sends to you. Are you just never going to recieve ever?
" “We call private channels 'private' but they are really not, they are more like unannounced channels,” Giorgio said, adding that there are currently ways to exploit the Lightning Network that enable a node to discover an unannounced private channel."
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy

Even worse, no one does this anyway, 95% of lightning users are on custodial wallets like WoS (they can see everything). And the remaining are trusting Phoenix servers that aren't private either.
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix

You rely on a node to verify Bitcoin supply just like Monero.
Don't pretend like you take advantage of Bitcoin's simple transparency to audit. Did you make sure every single transaction in 817,000+ blocks inputs = outputs? No, you didnt and niether does any Bitcoiner. You just rely on your node to verify supply for you like any Monero user.
There's literally no difference in practice.


Why shouldn't he use Monero?

It's the best strong default privacy tool available right now if you want to transact p2p, non-custodially, and without permisson.
Using it doesn't mean you have to save with it.

Coinjoins have many problems. They are a weaker form of privacy via obfuscation everything is still visible (not truly hidden like Monero encrypted amounts and addresses). Largely require centralized coordinators so are vulnerable to censorship. Opt in active participation instead of being on by default. They are relatively expensive, slow, and tedious. And you can easily make mistakes that degrade your already weaker privacy.

Lightning is not private. Reciever privacy is particularly bad. You're still not private to anyone who sends to you even with unannounced channels. So many other issues Monero doesn't have...
-need capacity to even recieve to begin with
-limited in the amount you can send without failing
-can't transact without both parties being online at the time of transaction
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-can be force closed onto the base chain against your will
-ability to grief honest users with zero cost
-recent unresolvable critical security issues without base layer changes
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html


Cashu is very good privacy. Not even the mint you are using knows who is transacting or how much is being sent because it is cryographically blinded. But...

-The biggest thing is that it's *custodial*
-mints can print tokens out of thin air that are unbacked by Bitcoin and no one would necessarily know (although i think Calle is working on ways to mitigate this risk)
-still in early beta
-small anon set

Major caveats, but if they don't matter to you or you're just using small amounts so don't mind the risk seems very useful especially if more people start using it


Sorry didn't mean to be curt I just see this advice so often

Cash is great privacy for local transactions, but...

-You can't instantly send cash to anyone on the planet.
-You can't easily hide or transport large amounts and it's vulnerable to confiscation.
-It's value is also vulnerable to arbitrary and unpredictable inflation.

Different use cases


Great privacy tool.
Probably the best available in practice right now not just merely in theory.

Made of 3 main default privacy layers:
Confidential Transactions hide amounts
Stealth Addresses hide recievers
Ring Signatures obfuscate senders

Additionally IP address is hidden by default via Dandelion++

Costs less than a cent to transact too


Horrible advice...

Liquid doesn't hide sender or reciever
It's a permissioned network
And it's anon set is like 3 people

https://liquid.network/blocks


Pro/Con of Nostr Clients

Iris.to
Pro: Everyone has a web browser, so it’s easy for beginners to on-board.   Simple easy layout.
Con:  They use CloudFlare, so do NOT let the website see your private key.  You need to use the Flamingo browser extension to sign events because CloudFlare strips away httpS encryption.  Without a browser extension, it should be treated like you’re handing your private key to the US government.  You can’t view DMs using a browser extension only.  Also CloudFlare will browser fingerprint you and block Tor.

Primal.net
Pro: Fast for Tor.  I recommend this only for Tor browser.  The reason it’s fast is because you’re not getting the content from each individual relay, but it’s aggregated to their database.
Con: Primal’s model is closer to traditional social media, where they can censor content.  Beyond using this for speed on Tor, it’s dangerous centralization.

Amethyst
Pro: FOSS Android client in the F-Droid store that works on degoogled phones.  Not only is the interface just like Twitter, but they added in “sealed sender” style DMs, similar to Signal to hide metadata.
Con: Be aware that if you’re not using a degoogled phone, then the government and Google can probably get your private key.  And for the high risk “tinfoil hat” paranoid, you can’t control the Baseband modem of ANY mobile device which hackers can remotely compromise.  But for the average memer, private keys on mobile is fine.

Gossip
Pro:  This is what I’d use for famous or controversial influences with a high threat model.  Desktop Linux is supported, and it’s programmed in Rust which could potentially add security against memory corruption for poorly vetted third party images downloaded off relays.  Password lock on posting is good.
Con: No sealed sender DMs yet.  Hard to use.
Tip: You want to first try Amethyst, then graduate to Gossip when you understand that you have to enter a relay where someone posts to find them.  (hint: lookup their relays quickly on Tor via primal.net.)

Lume
Pro: Lots of features such as mapping relationships, good widgets for hashtags and topics.  Password lock is good.
Con: There’s still Linux bugs.  I can’t recommend it for Linux, as I had issues.  However, the developer has significantly improved Linux builds from just a few months ago, but it’s not there yet.

Damus
Pro: iPhone Client for less tech-savvy users
Con: Apple (and therefore the government) can probably get that private key, but again for the average person it’s ok.

</end>
Please consider reposting this to spread adoption.  I might make video tutorials for gossip


It's actually significantly easier and requires less resources to run a Monero node today than Bitcoin

Monero has a smaller blocksize ~0.3 MB vs 4 MB

Monero has a smaller blockchain ~200 GB vs ~600 GB

Unless you expect Monero to suddenly dethrone Bitcoin, there is no reason why it can't gradually scale. With consumer tech advancements (Moore's law) and protocol scalability improvements (tx size already reduced by ~80% since inception) there is no problem.

I affordably fit 1 TB of data on a microSD card the size of a fingernail. That didn't even exist a decade ago.


Again - an entirely different topic and that has nothing to do with fees


menos de bitcoin

https://moneroj.net/inflation/


i2p is relatively fast and has several privacy advantages over Tor, but unfortunately it is not used as much yet


a taxa de inflação é mais baixa do que a do ouro

se isso o assusta, não poupe no Monero, utilize-o como foi concebido, como dinheiro digital p2p não rastreável e não como um investimento


Na you're not crazy, but you're more hardcore than me lol.
Didn't even know you could still use Tor with Twitter.

I can't be bothered though not worth it for me. Low risk, high inconvenience, and unecessary for many things. A lot of things don't work well (or work at all) with Tor so I personally just use a good VPN like Mullvad for everyday normie things.

I only use Tor for specific tasks like some Monero and Bitcoin wallets, certain encypted messengers, or freeweb purchases. Just practice good opsec and keeping your identities/nyms completely separated and youll be fine.

Alternatively you could also use a frontend for Twitter like Nitter on desktop or Squawker on android for an additional layer between you and Twitter.
https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances
https://github.com/j-fbriere/squawker


menos de um cêntimo

https://monero-bitcoin-fees.vercel.app/


Tx size has nothing to do with it. Blocksize is the main issue.

Bitcoin blocksize is fixed. So increased demand means rising fees.

Monero blockspace changes based on demand. More demand means blockspace grows to accomadate it AKA very cheap tx fees even if it had the same traffic as Bitcoin.


No, Monero has dynamic blocksize so it can have short term spikes in fees while it adapts, but long term tx fees will always continue falling even if that demand is sustained. Monero will always be very cheap to transact overall.
https://monero-bitcoin-fees.vercel.app/

The same thing cannot be said of Bitcoin. Fixed blocksize and growing demand means fees will continue rising as demand rises and stay that way if the demand is sustained.


Agoradesk/LocalMonero is also great p2p and noKYC way to get cheap and private Bitcoin

Protip: Buy Monero from Agoradesk and then swap to Bitcoin with something like trocador.app

Their Monero liquidity is significantly higher. I usually make an offer for both Monero and Bitcoin, but ~80% of the trades come in from the Monero side. Also, post your own offer and wait to get it cheaper. It's more expensive to just take someone elses offer.


Obrigado!

Nenhum cliente Nostr suporta Monero "zaps" no momento, mas há uma recompensa crescente para que isso seja feito:
https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/13-011m-nostr-client-for-monero

Entretanto, podes colocar um endereço Monero no teu perfil e as pessoas podem enviar-te Monero se gostarem do que dizes


Muitas destas questões são apenas a natureza do Lightning. Não podem ser resolvidas.


Not just replace. Limited blockspace and growing demand for it means growing fees. We'll look back on these $15 fees fondly.

It's not hard to see the logical conclusion of what you said

As tx fees continue to climb 90% of users won't be able to afford to transact on chain. Whats left? Custodial services and faulty second class citizen layers.

Michael Saylor and Max Keiser will be the lucky few able to sparingly transact on chain


Some would call that mass surveillance...


Speaking of pathetic...

Liquid doesn't hide sender or reciever, is a permissioned network, and has a non existent anon set with a total of maybe 3 peoples using it on a good day

https://liquid.network/blocks

garbage


With a large burst of demand, in the short term, the fees could spike on Monero, but long term the fees would continue falling even if the demand was sustained because of dynamic blocks.

The same thing cannot be said of bitcoin. Fees will rise with demand long term and will not fall because blockspace is limited and inelastic.


This isn't true. Even if Monero had the traffic of Bitcoin fees would still be very cheap because of dynamic blocksize.


👀

npub1r27775s4thzj5gdz4j0dr8jygvtldnur2qxlzw0muu7z57k83c4qtsyqx6


Monerujo, Stack Wallet, and Cake Wallet are all solid open source and non custodial phone wallets

Feather Wallet is a good alternative desktop wallet

Use Bisq or LocalMonero to get Monero P2P without any ID
kycnot.me

Or if you already have other crypto check out an exchange aggregator  to swap into Monero. I recommend trocador.app

Maybe you already know all this but wanted to let you know just in case


Ya $15 tx fees that price out the majority of the world are great 🤪


O Lightning não tem a mesma privacidade que o Monero. A privacidade do recetor do Lightning, em particular, é péssima. Estás mal informado.


Lightning tem muitos problemas que o Monero não tem:

-ilusão de liquidação final (nada é verdadeiramente liquidado até que esteja na cadeia)
depende de grandes nós intermediários centralizados para um encaminhamento bem-sucedido e taxas mais baratas
-Requer capacidade de receção para começar
-Limitado no montante que pode enviar sem falhar
-Não é possível efetuar transacções sem que ambas as partes estejam online no momento da transação
-Pode ser roubado se o seu nó estiver offline
-Fraca privacidade do recetor, o IP é exposto por defeito e os saldos ocultos podem ser descobertos por um adversário passivo
-Pode ser introduzido à força na cadeia de base contra a sua vontade
-Possibilidade de fazer griefing a utilizadores honestos a custo zero
-95% dos utilizadores estão em carteiras de custódia como a Wallet of Satoshi
-O pior de tudo é o facto de não ser uma solução real para escalar todas as desvantagens que assume
>Os recentes problemas críticos de segurança levantam ainda mais questões e preocupações:


For someone who hates Monero it sure seems to always be on your mind...🤔


Monero always on your mind? You might have a crush 🤭


You like charts? I like charts.

The more you use Bitcoin the poorer you get

https://monero-bitcoin-fees.vercel.app/


It's so third parties (corporations, financial institutions, governments, etc) can't tie your identity to any online activity. More plausible deniability also if you use an anonymous payment method VS a credit card 100% tied to your identity.

You have a to trust the VPN to some degree though. Trust can be minimized by the VPN being as transparent as possible and not requiring personal info, but never removed completely with a VPN. But if you do trust them it is a very useful tool on your belt for privacy and anonymity against third parties.

I recommend Mullvad or IVPN.
No personal info required (randomly generated account numbers only), allows payment via Bitcoin and Monero, open source apps, has servers outside of five eyes, and RAM-only servers.

Obscura also looks promising (TBA):
https://obscuravpn.io/

But for anything requiring some serious anonymity you can't beat Tor (pros and cons to each).


Here's a novel idea - then don't do that...

Also, just saying you own or used Monero on social media wouldn't connect you to anything on chain. You would also have to provide the private keys or transaction ID to tie your identity to something specific.

Not even Monero can save you from idiocy at that level


Great power and great responsibility. If you're scared stay a slave.


Just because someone somewhere did something bad doesn't mean you automatically get a free pass to dictate others and invade their privacy

Monero is the farthest thing from rent-seeking imaginable. No dev tax or premine, NGU and price pumps are not a thing, and anyone who owns a CPU is free to participate in mining.


Default encryption > optional obfuscation


A Cypherpunk's Manifesto

Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age. Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world.

If two parties have some sort of dealings, then each has a memory of their interaction. Each party can speak about their own memory of this; how could anyone prevent it? One could pass laws against it, but the freedom of speech, even more than privacy, is fundamental to an open society; we seek not to restrict any speech at all. If many parties speak together in the same forum, each can speak to all the others and aggregate together knowledge about individuals and other parties. The power of electronic communications has enabled such group speech, and it will not go away merely because we might want it to.

Since we desire privacy, we must ensure that each party to a transaction have knowledge only of that which is directly necessary for that transaction. Since any information can be spoken of, we must ensure that we reveal as little as possible. In most cases personal identity is not salient. When I purchase a magazine at a store and hand cash to the clerk, there is no need to know who I am. When I ask my electronic mail provider to send and receive messages, my provider need not know to whom I am speaking or what I am saying or what others are saying to me; my provider only need know how to get the message there and how much I owe them in fees. When my identity is revealed by the underlying mechanism of the transaction, I have no privacy. I cannot here selectively reveal myself; I must always reveal myself.

Therefore, privacy in an open society requires anonymous transaction systems. Until now, cash has been the primary such system. An anonymous transaction system is not a secret transaction system. An anonymous system empowers individuals to reveal their identity when desired and only when desired; this is the essence of privacy.

Privacy in an open society also requires cryptography. If I say something, I want it heard only by those for whom I intend it. If the content of my speech is available to the world, I have no privacy. To encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy, and to encrypt with weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Furthermore, to reveal one's identity with assurance when the default is anonymity requires the cryptographic signature.

We cannot expect governments, corporations, or other large, faceless organizations to grant us privacy out of their beneficence. It is to their advantage to speak of us, and we should expect that they will speak. To try to prevent their speech is to fight against the realities of information. Information does not just want to be free, it longs to be free. Information expands to fill the available storage space. Information is Rumor's younger, stronger cousin; Information is fleeter of foot, has more eyes, knows more, and understands less than Rumor.

We must defend our own privacy if we expect to have any. We must come together and create systems which allow anonymous transactions to take place. People have been defending their own privacy for centuries with whispers, darkness, envelopes, closed doors, secret handshakes, and couriers. The technologies of the past did not allow for strong privacy, but electronic technologies do.

We the Cypherpunks are dedicated to building anonymous systems. We are defending our privacy with cryptography, with anonymous mail forwarding systems, with digital signatures, and with electronic money.

Cypherpunks write code. We know that someone has to write software to defend privacy, and since we can't get privacy unless we all do, we're going to write it. We publish our code so that our fellow Cypherpunks may practice and play with it. Our code is free for all to use, worldwide. We don't much care if you don't approve of the software we write. We know that software can't be destroyed and that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks deplore regulations on cryptography, for encryption is fundamentally a private act. The act of encryption, in fact, removes information from the public realm. Even laws against cryptography reach only so far as a nation's border and the arm of its violence. Cryptography will ineluctably spread over the whole globe, and with it the anonymous transactions systems that it makes possible.

For privacy to be widespread it must be part of a social contract. People must come and together deploy these systems for the common good. Privacy only extends so far as the cooperation of one's fellows in society. We the Cypherpunks seek your questions and your concerns and hope we may engage you so that we do not deceive ourselves. We will not, however, be moved out of our course because some may disagree with our goals.

The Cypherpunks are actively engaged in making the networks safer for privacy. Let us proceed together apace.

Onward.

Eric Hughes

9 March 1993


Monero has several layers of privacy that are all by default (important):
Ring Signatures obfuscate senders
Confidential Transactions hide amounts
Stealth Addresses hide recievers
Dandelion++ hides IP

Here are some major differences between coinjoins and ring signatures:
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures-vs-coinjoin


Check out Stack Wallet

https://stackwallet.com/


Fair enough.

Don't disagree with people having varying levels of computing power. My point is CPU mining is more accessible to everyone than ASICs (potential for decentralization is much higher) in addition to it being inconspicuous.

I don't place as much importance in centralization in that specific aspect because we can opt out like any free market.
I think the important thing is that the code is transparent and FOSS. No one can stop users from selling, swapping, or forking their Monero.

I never found the argument "we never hardfork, and your  coin sucks for it, but if X happened we could just hardfork" very convincing. You can't take both sides of that argument and remain coherent. Bitcoin's strength is the confidence that it will never hardfork.

I also think we would agree on most things and I don't disagree with anything in your last paragraph. I think Monero makes a better MoE or p2p digital *cash* (real world fungibility and strong default privacy). It's not supposed to be an investment or SoV and makes no promises about that.


ASICs have two major manufacturers that both require KYC. They consolidate on large corporate ASIC mining farms. Sounds centralizing to me. Very obvious energy draw, sound, and heat as well. Also no secret what it's purpose is for if discovered.

Meanwhile nearly everyone on the planet has multiple general purpose CPUs. Ubiquity can't be beat and hidden in plain sight.

I didn't say side chains were custodial.
I said fedimints were custodial and rehypothecateable. It's not a simplification it's just true.

Of course, I don't want to stop fedimints being put out to the market they have their place, I'm just saying it isn't the exact same usecase as Monero.


L2s can't be a complete replacement for an L1 like Monero

Fedimints are custodial and mints can print IOUs unbacked by Bitcoin.
Sidechains are not fungible with the base layer and wouldn't have other important aspects of Monero like it's discrete and decentralized ASIC-resistant mining.


Or it could've been an inside job from the ones holding the keys to that wallet. We might never know.


Another one

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KkwXtWtVj3w


Good short video on it

https://video.simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp-vs-matrix-why-matrix-sucks/


"Anonymous open letter calls for structural changes in the Monero ecosystem"

https://monero.observer/anonymous-open-letter-calls-structural-changes-monero-ecosystem/

Main points overview...
-Code hosting: move away from MS Github
-Community hangouts and conversation places: move away from IRC to OFTC and from Matrix to XMPP
-CCS funding and security: use MultiSig (2/3)
-Wallets and OSes: drop official support for proprietary operating systems/wallets
-Exchanges and swaps: add KYC notice (remove CEXs?) @ getmonero.org
-Extra points: bring back the forums (+tor/i2p mirrors)


prepaid card*


Interesting. Noticed their fees were fairly steep. $59 of Monero for a $50 gift card. But might be worth it if you need an easy fiat onramp from Monero. Does seem kinda of suspect.


Yes, and consider how centralized and permissioned the backend software of your bank is. Complexity go up, decentralization go down. And that's exactly what we see with lightning. Overwhelmingly used custodially


Poor excuse to blame these things on users. Good engineering (KISS principle) and UX are laughably bad and not well thought out on LN. Ingwie seems above average in his technical knowledge and I always see him and many others struggling with it. The average person is never going to do all these technical gymnastics.

Lightning is hot garbage. Time to scrap it and figure something else out.


Agree, the list goes on and on...

-relies on large centralizing middlemen nodes for succesful routing and cheapest fees
-need capacity to recieve to begin with as you said
-limited in the amount you can send
-can't transact without both parties being online at the time of transaction
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-bad receiver privacy, IP is exposed by default, and hidden balances can be discovered by a passive adversary
-can be force closed onto the base chain against your will
-ability to grief honest users with zero cost
-worst of all it isn't a real solution for scaling for all the downsides you take on

Another big thing that recently came to light. Critical security issues discovered that are unresolvable without base layer changes (we both know how nearly impossible that would be)
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html


Still too low


♥

3rd and 5th of the PoW coins though


E quais são as suas hipóteses de minerar Bitcoin? Even lower.

A cada 10 minutos tem exatamente 0% de hipóteses de ganhar bitcoin, porque a maioria das pessoas não tem dinheiro para comprar ASICs e competir com grandes quintas de mineração corporativas centralizadas.


Cool, Bitcoin is still a speck compared to USD global adoption. I don't think mass appeal in this moment of time is what makes Bitcoin unique. It has more important properties like p2p, permissionlessness, and self custody. These are the things that make it special and without them it is another paypal.

To be fair you keep talking about Monero too so...

Nostr protocol is agnostic and has nothing to do with Bitcoin. Maybe you mean these particular clients.


You're delusional if you think Bitcoin is more adopted than USD 😂 But by your adotion-at-all-costs logic I guess USD wins so let's give up on Bitcoin!

What good is adoption to fight central banks if 99% of Bitcoin users can be traced and also lacks fungibility on the monetary side?


Lightning is so good that I...

-can receive without needing to have some beforehand
-can send large amounts without limit
-can transact without needing both parties online at the time of transaction
-can't be rugged if my node is offline
-dont need to rely on large centralizing nodes for succesful transcations and cheapest fees
-have great receiver privacy, IP is hidden by default, and hidden balances can't be discovered
-can't be force closed onto a base chain against my will
-can't be griefed with zero cost
-am not overwhelmingly used custodially
-don't have any unresolvable critical security flaws after being around for years:
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

oh wait...all of this is Monero, not Lightning 🤭


You can't fight central banks if governments can just trace you and send men with guns to imprison you and give up your bitcoin. We already saw how easy it is to do that during the Canadian trucker protests.

You like monetary economics? Then you should understand an ideal money requires fungibility and that Bitcoin isn't fungible.
https://mises.org/wire/why-fungibility-important-understanding-money-and-crypto


Very weak argument because you could just say the same thing of Bitcoin.

But unlike Bitcoin, Monero is literally untraceable if you are only gathering information solely off the blockchain:

1) There is no transaction graph or receivers visible thanks to Stealth Addresses (no connections of senders and receivers)
2) There are no amounts visible thanks to Confidential Transactions
3) And IP address is obfuscated by default even if you aren't behind Tor thanks to Dandelion++

Any outside/offchain mistakes/data used to find users is moot in this case because that would apply tenfold to any other crypto and has nothing to do with Monero itself.


Didn't know this. Interesting if true.


Privacy is a right. The US govt can go fuck themselves


Don't follow. How does being off exchanges make it easier to honeypot?


Monero isn't a token, doofus


WHAT IS THE POINT OF FUCK YOU TECH IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO SAY FUCK YOU


Well some would also say it's a red flag to them when Blockstream and TradFi interests push and fund pet projects like Liquid and Lightning. If we're going by red flags that seems more suspect to me than people using cheesy words you don't like.

What's wrong with Monero?


The only thing you said that is true is liquidity relative to Bitcoin

Name any other crypto with strong default privacy, real world fungibility, and very cheap tx fees with the network effect of Monero.
Bitcoin definitely doesn't have those properties!
Bitcoin is less than ideal for a MoE and p2p digital cash.
https://monero-bitcoin-fees.vercel.app/

Explain how a private and anonymous FOSS project is a "honeypot"...so stupid

I'm not going to list them all. Here is a good directory to get you started on the circular economy:
https://monerica.com/
https://kycnot.me/search?q=&type=&xmr=on

Many FOSS projects accept payment and donations in Monero (Tor, IVPN, Mullvad, SimpleX, Molly, GrapheneOS, etc)

Samourai, one of the largest Bitcoin coinjoin projects, is introducing Monero cross chain atomic swaps soon.

Monero is literally the largest currency on Bisq. Larger than any fiat currency.

Premier currency of the FreeNet Markets

Do you want me to go on?

https://image.nostr.build/8599b34eccd2f28fc56ee3a749ab7ac044d23a8dcff609020a9ded10f9677c43.jpg

https://image.nostr.build/06cc8e656fc2781f9323aec3bbde678ebde86eb0631414ca1db05b736c0445e0.jpg

https://image.nostr.build/ce5fbe19fd498ed948ec66e2f91efb9dc8fcfd388f56a23c97735d9bb86d3460.jpg

https://image.nostr.build/5a409dca8ccb4b10f8879a4e7bc99137fc104cef5ce01fbdd8e3aad3724ebba0.jpg


no-KYC options:

If you want to buy with fiat use Bisq or Agoradesk/LocalMonero

If you have Bitcoin or another crypto use Trocador.app to swap and get some


anonymity =/= privacy

Bitcoin can never be private because its a public blockchain

Even the anonymity part is debatable because it requires active opt-in action, fraction of users buy KYC-free + Coinjoin, the relatively small anon set is split over several protocols, and it degrades over time


Bet you can't explain how


Yes, there are trade offs to each. That public ledger means bitcoin is not private and can never be (nothing is hidden even with coinjoins, atomic swaps, or identity obfuscation) and it isn't fungible (in the real world, not only on a protocol level)


What have I said to make you think my conversation is in bad faith? Haven't name-called or anything like that. Sorry, if I came off a certain way. It's hard to transmit tone over text. Maybe I have a strong point of view, I just don't agree, but I'm just giving my opinion like everyone else on here.

My goal is to see what your response/arguments would be to these things (I could be wrong or miss something).

"I'm not convinced Monero alone could deliver the scale that Bitcoin plus lightning/liquid do deliver."
Conflation was implied (Bitcoin is scaling via lightning) That was only a single of my points, but how is that not a valid one (Lightning not being adopted how will it scale bitcoin + lightning and bitcoin are fundamentally different)? But ignore that point if you want. What about the others? Showed you that even with all it's unique issues lightning still cannot scale (it's main goal).

"Monero: according to market data, I see for the last few years there are consistently around 20k transactions a day."
The difference is I'm not making these superior scalability claims for Monero (even though it can comfortably take on between 10x-100x more transactions with current protocol) or saying use Monero instead Lightning (Where did I say this???). Global takeover "hyperbitcoinization" is mostly a bitcoin phenomenon. It's not an expectation in XMR community. It's there for those who will actually use it (this will never be the world or white markets even with bitcoin imo).

"impossible to measure since 2 nodes can transact via a channel"
Most lightning is over centralized hubs and used custodially, so you can definitely measure vast majority of network activity (+95%, but probably even more than that honestly). Very rarely is it used sovereignly and p2p.


If no one is adopting those things how will it scale bitcoin?

Any crypto can create a lightning-like network. Lightning isn't unique to bitcoin. It just isn't necessary on other blockchains because they didn't artificially handicap their blocksize. I still don't think Bitcoin should change (only because it would be devastating to confidence), but I think it has been overly and detrimentally conservative when it comes to blocksize rate of adoption VS moore's law + protocol scalability improvements.

Also, what is lightning really scaling? Scaling at all costs? It has completely different properties than base layer transactions. Many, many, downsides that don't make sense imo for the original goals of Bitcoin. I can go more into that if you'd like.

A network that is trying to scale to the world is useless if it has unresolvable critical security flaws
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

Lastly, none of what I said matters because lightning is not a real scaling solution anyway
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations


Would this really get around that problem or it it just "shifting" it over? Is there any crypto already existing that does something similar? Split up in chunks part kind of sounds like sharding.

Trying to fully understand what you're describing, but sounds like a cool idea


Not completely true, but you're right in a sense.

Double edged sword though. That same thing is what makes it actually private and fungible vs something like Bitcoin.

If this worries you don't save with it. Use it like cash.

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/#you-cant-audit-the-monero-supply


If you had a way to preserve your nostr identity so that you could recover from someone compromising your nsec and it required writing a note in your nostr client, would you do it?

Repost for visibility, want to see what people think.


sounds dope


Historically, Bitcoin has done much better than Monero price-wise, so it's an understandable position. There are many who "save in bitcoin, spend in monero"

One can control supply and argue bitcoin has properties more conducive to a SoV, but ultimately bitcoin/monero can't control the other side of the equation - the fickle winds of demand.

There are many issues with the "privacy" of bitcoin (opt-in, relatively expensive, tedious, slow, easy to make mistakes, nothing is hidden, degrades over time) and even lightning, but I think we mostly agree


Users often joke Monero is the real stable coin. Hovers around average of ~$150 for years.

Maybe you already know this, but ring signatures are only 1 of 3 of Monero's privacy layers and only apply to the sender. It is the relatively weakest part because it is "just" obfuscation.

The real magic is Monero's encrypted amounts and receivers (confidential transactions and stealth addresses). Completely hidden - can't be derived by looking at the blockchain. Meaning the transaction graph (sprawling connections of senders and receivers) doesn't even exist on Monero, unlike 99.9% of cryptos.


It's like saying there will only be one tool that you will ever need, a screwdriver, so we don't need hammers anymore.

You said it yourself, they are playing different games. Different specialties and trade-offs. Even Bitcoin has things it is bad at.

If you need strong default privacy, real world fungibility, and very cheap tx fees (all without giving up custody, permissionlessness, or final settlement) - a better p2p digital *cash* - then Monero is the best tool for that job. You don't invest or save in cash - you use it as a MoE.

If get rich quick schemes are ones #1 priority above all else...well it is no wonder to me they don't see value in anything else.


Bitcoiners often conflate Bitcoin adoption with Lightning/Liquid adoption

Bitcoin adoption =/= Lightning/Liquid adoption

Just because you accept Bitcoin on chain doesn't mean you accept Lightning - much less Liquid. On chain adoption overwhelmingly dominates over any of these.


Well for starters.... liquid doesn't hide sender or receiver, IP is visible by default, has a microscopic anon set, and is a PERMISSIONED NETWORK

Point is that you are acting like those things are full Monero replacement when they are clearly not. We're not even touching on Monero's massive network effect vs those those things.

As far as Lightnings being "attackable"...a long time dev just recently quit in part because of critical security issues that are unresolvable without base layer changes:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

The largest trading pair on Bisq is Monero. Even larger than any fiat.

https://image.nostr.build/8599b34eccd2f28fc56ee3a749ab7ac044d23a8dcff609020a9ded10f9677c43.jpg


Great, a fixed supply that makes you poorer the more you use it

https://monero-bitcoin-fees.vercel.app/


Nothing new

Monero always dumps when Bitcoin pumps and vice versa


"Stop resisting, Stop resisting!" is one of the most instantly recognizable phrases of the new American century. When you read the words, you can probably still hear them shouted in your head, the echoing memory of a generational trauma, the indelible recollection of the moment that the citizen became subordinate to the state.


Privacy  and anonymity are both important for protecting users in the cryptocurrency ecosystem.
While #privacy  focuses on protecting personal data, #anonymity focuses on protecting identity.

#Monero has both characteristics.


+1

Fungibility is a necessary requirement for ideal money

https://mises.org/wire/why-fungibility-important-understanding-money-and-crypto


"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"


No idea what you mean by it's value/utility comes from the "outside". The value and utility of strong default privacy, real world fungibility, and cheap transactions comes from something only Monero can provide.

Bitcoin is missing the above properties so is a terrible p2p digital *cash* and MoE.

The more you use it the poorer you get (this will continue to get worse with more adoption). https://monero-bitcoin-fees.vercel.app/

If you want to claim Bitcoin is a better p2p digital gold/commodity/SoV go ahead. But honestly, any future price prediction is pure speculation. You can limit supply, but you can never control the fickle demand side of the equation.

"managed and dictated from outside entities"
~99% of your nodes depend on Bitcoin Core software and Blockstream has massive influence. That's why it's pet shit projects like liquid and lightning get the greenlight while anything else interesting flounders.
https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.html

The important part is the codebase is transparent and you have the ability to opt-out. If you ever don't agree the direction Monero is heading in you can sell, swap, or fork it at any moment and no one can stop you.


Thanks, I remember this article, though it is quite out of date.

Monero has 3 distinct privacy layers protecting sender, amount, and receiver. Admittedly, sender privacy has always been the relatively weakest part in Monero and vulnerable to these statistical attacks.

Like the article says, this attack only effects senders (an adversary can potentially know you sent monero, but not how much or to who). It also brings up Central Exchange transactions being traceable, but of course they are, that has nothing to do with Monero.

Even though ring signatures have been robust enough in practice so far (to date no one has ever been busted because of ring signatures) Seraphis upgrade will make sender privacy much better with full membership proofs.


Show us the report


1. 0.6 XMR every 2 minutes

2. No hard cap. Qustion for you: How high will tx fees be on Bitcoin as adoption increases for limited blockspace?...Terrible for a MoE p2p digital *cash*. You can argue better SoV if you wish. But any price projection into the future is pure speculation. You can control supply but never the  fickle demand side of the equation.

3. You audit Monero the same way you audit Bitcoin. You run a node.
No Bitcoiner is taking advantage of it's transparent/simple math to scrutinize the blockchain so that doesn't help you. Did you make sure that 900,000,000+ million transaction inputs = outputs on your node? Do you do that every 10 minutes? No, you just run your node and pay no mind like a Monero user.

4. Premined? You're confusing Monero with Bytecoin or Bitmonero.

5. Bitcoin itself has similar scaling challenges so I don't understand why you think this is unique to Monero. You are the ones with the global "hyperbitcoinization" prophecy narrative - not us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RJ5HDmuucY

Either way Monero can easily scale in two scenarios:
1) Rate of adoption remains below rate of consumer tech advancements (Moore's law) and protocol scalability improvements (tx size has already been reduced by 80%)
2) Monero remains a somewhat niche black/gray market crypto. I think Bitcoiners are delusional if they think the State will allow Bitcoin and Monero on white markets if they have anything to say about it.

Better at what is the question? What is the goal? Different tools for different jobs. If my needs require a hammer, a screwdriver doesn't help me much. Bitcoin has it's own unique downsides vs Monero.


At least try making your FUD somewhat believable by learning how it works. You can't choose what transactions you are decoys for.

That would also have zero effect on Monero's hidden amounts and receivers.


>opt-in privacy solution 1% of bitcoiners use correctly
>Already small liquidity is split between multiple protocols
>degrades over time

"Lol. Anonymity sets."


Ok, but this is exactly the scenario Monero was built for.

"We're banning invisibility cloaks. We better not catch anyone using an invisibility cloak!"

Same energy


+1

Very common for people to conflate anonymity and privacy