All these Bitcoiners seem to think Monero is great too:

"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo

"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor

"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos

"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell

"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee

"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser

"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry

"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand

"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki

"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet

"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero: getmonero.org" -Balaji

"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc


There is also a lot of UX issues and complexity involved in using LN privately and sovereignly that Monero (or even Bitcoin), don't have. Just a few:

-need capacity to use
-can't send larger amounts
-can't send to a static address
-can't use offline
-can be rugged if offline
-can ultimately be force closed back on chain against your will

I suspect, along with all the privacy holes, these are major reasons DNMs don't use LN and still wouldn't even if it's privacy was on par with Monero. Just too many inconveniences and pitfalls. A headache.


Better at what?

Strong default privacy? Fungibility? Sovereign affordable transactions? Yes, Monero is definitely better at that unique combo than anything Bitcoin or it's lackey layers currently offer.

Takes one extremist to know another 🤝


Bold statement.

How would you know that lightning moves more value than Monero? You can't see amounts being moved around on Monero, so how would you compare...and are you saying we can naively see amounts moving on the super private Lightning Network? (although large routing nodes, custodial wallets, and LSPs can see the wider picture).

We can see a crude comparison of mcap (Moneros ~$3 Billion) vs capacity (LN $200 million)

Ok, well let us know when that happens. And when it gets all the bad sovereign UX shit sorted out which is another huge problem. Until then we'll keep using what actually works right now not waiting for some hazy future. When/if we see Darknet Markets start adopting LN that is the canary telling us to switch.


1. All these wallets are on FDroid, can add their repository, or have the APKs available on their githubs. Also all open-source and self-custodial.

https://cakewallet.com/
https://www.monerujo.io/
https://stackwallet.com/
Anonero ***Tor only http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/
Mysu ***Tor only http://rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion/

2. No-KYC p2p methods to acquire Monero

Fiat -> Monero
https://localmonero.co/
https://bisq.network/
https://learn.robosats.com/

Bitcoin -> Monero (atomic swaps)
https://unstoppableswap.net/
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases ***Still in beta [short tutorial: https://tube.monero.im/w/aBqiCQUARipWGi72FAPgY5]

Crypto -> Monero (atomic swaps)
https://basicswapdex.com/

Crypto -> Monero (***centralized instant swap aggregators, but no-KYC, no-javascript, and tor sites available)
https://trocador.app/
https://orangefren.com/
https://intercambio.app/


It's just software bro

no need to be in your feels about it

#threatened #insecure


You can minimize all you like. That "shiny yellow rock" was the monetary foundation for several millennia and life blood of civilization that led to ours...and it had small inflation the whole time

If I offered you the choice to hold $100,000 in fiat paper money or gold for a few decades - which would you take? If you're being honest you would say gold. Obviously, issuance is very important!

You must be kidding. Ironically 1 btc =/= 1 btc because it has unique histories. It's not fungible in practice. Monero is. 1 xmr = 1 xmr. It has no unique history. Uniformity and indistinguishability = fungibility

Yes, my point was there are pros and cons to both, but you made it seem like it was all just cons. If a large exploit was found we would know eventually indirectly via the price tanking to zero. And if you're still worried - just use it as digital cash, not for savings. Problem solved.

Many differences from paper fiat:
-Cant send cash instantly to anyone on the planet.
-Cant carry large amounts or cross borders without risking confiscation and theft.
-Exposed to centralized and unpredictable issuance.
-Difficult to verify authenticity on the fly.
-No mechanism for verifying supply.
-Need to carry specific denominations for change.
-Can't trustlessly exchange (atomic swaps)
-Different people can't simultaneously have ownership and control over the same cash (multisig)

Yea ok, many users have been waiting for privacy on Bitcoin since 2009. Nothing but empty promises and vaporware so far. What about the users who need and want strong default privacy right now and wish to keep their sovereignty? What should they use? Some hazy undetermined future privacy doesn't help them

Sure, if there are no major trade offs, and it is actually adopted, I'll use whatever is the best tool for the job. I'm not attached to the name. Are you?


I guess that is an ever slight difference, but not sure if it is significant. Why else would you be sending to a mint (if that address is known and associated with a mint)? Will at least evoke major suspicion

And if you p2p trade or atomic swap for Monero - this is essentially the same thing as sending Bitcoin to a mint. Probably even better. No one will know you got that Monero aside from your peer (and you'll also likely be anonymous or pseudonymous with these methods too)


1. Can't scale to billions currently. Neither can Bitcoin or Lightning though. If you say Bitcoin has time to figure this out, then so does Monero.

2. Amounts and addresses are not visible on-chain, period (Confidential transactions + Stealth addresses)
Dandelion++ hides IP origin of transactions by default even without Tor.
Senders obfuscated thru ring sigs. After one additional hop chances of correctly guessing sender is less than a percent (0.4%). Two and it's at 0.02%. And you *still* wont know how much was sent or to whom.

3. Mining is potentially more decentralized than Bitcoin since anyone with a phone, laptop, or desktop can mine it.
Distribution of nodes is on par with Bitcoin: https://monero.fail/map
Funding is completely voluntary by donations - there is no premine or dev tax.
Like any FOSS project (third largest behind BTC and ETH), if there is a future dispute the community will fork and users will choose what they want to use. But as of yet, there hasn't been any because it has clearer goals. You can also swap out your Monero if you don't like the direction it is heading and no one can stop you from doing that. It's all about having the ability to opt-out


Gold also has non-stop inflation...
Yet it was the money of civilization for thousands of years. Monero has less inflation than gold.
Fiat issuance is arbitrary, centralized, and unpredictable. That is not true for Monero or gold.

Having a private blockchain is what also makes it a great digital currency and truly fungible, unlike Bitcoin.

No one is telling you to save with it. It is p2p digital cash. You use it for strong default transactional privacy.

How temporary we talking? The lifespan of the sun is temporary. I guess that is yet to be seen. Right now, it is a good tool and Bitcoin has no L2 that is a full replacement for it.


And the main features of ecash is it's strong privacy as well. So, I still don't understand why you think it is so different. Anything with that kind of privacy won't be liked, period.


Maybe so, but it runs into a catch 22 imo

Well-known mint runners are less likely to rug, but easier to find and take down

Anonymous/Pseudonymous mint runners are harder to find and take down, but it's easier for them to rug-n-run


Yes, if done properly Monero can break identity links.

-Use Tor or at least a good VPN (Mullvad, IVPN)
-Swap to Monero on Exchange 'A'
-Let time pass...couple days maybe...longer the better...
-Swap back to Bitcoin on Exchange 'B'. But break it up. Not all in one swap.
trocador.app

Or better...
Trade p2p or atomic swap for one or both swaps:
Bisq.network
Localmonero.co
learn.robosats.com
unstoppableswap.net
code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases
basicswapdex.com


Coinjoin is ownership obfuscation. It doesn't provide any privacy like Monero does. All amounts and connections are visible and more vulnerable to future mistakes or offchain data.

Expensive, slow, and tedious too


And Bitcoin has zero privacy. It is a public ledger. All connections and amounts are completely visible to anyone on the planet.


That is a single example. Where do you think seized Bitcoin at government auction comes from? Why is there no government auctions for Monero? Do they have any? I guess we would never know

"just like tor's 3 hops..."
Except that any future mistakes can potentially de-anonymize you. Trading partners can see your balances and trace you. Not only that, but over time any future mistakes from others that participated in your coinjoin rounds reduces your "privacy" and is out of your control. Made evident by people like this paying for a tiny mistake made years later.

You don't seem to understand the problem. Almost no user is going to do all these little optional hoop jumping tricks, spend way more money, and waste time to "wash" their coins.

The best Bitcoin "privacy"-wizard opsec-gymnast has worse privacy than the most retarded Monero user pressing send. And that is a shame.


You can gauge your risk accordingly by reducing exposure in amount and/or time to make the these risks low/negligible.

But strictly speaking it will always be custodial and there is no guarantee that those who hold ecash tokens will ever be able to redeem them for real Bitcoin, or that others will take them at their represented value.

I think there will be many rugs by mints (both intentional and unintentional) before it gets somewhat better. But the risks will never be lower than self-custody on chain.

https://iris.to/note1mmtkufs30679q4cem09lrdzx4cevr8ss9269wlrl34k6tarmzwfs0s880t


Fedimints and Cashu will attract the same legal scrutiny. But unlike Monero, they are holding funds! So they will likely be even more scrutinized. Look at what happened to Tornado Cash.


I don't understand. For plausible deniability, why can't you say you were trying to save on fees with Monero too? Less than a cent.

>"Why didn't you just use Lightning/Ecash then?"
>"Because ecash is custodial and rehypothicateable.
And lightning is too complex and too many annoyance (can't receive offline, ruggable, can't send large amounts, can be forced closed onchain, etc...)"

?


I would say the only strong default privacy on this list is chaumian ecash (like fedi) and Monero.

If you don't care about the custodial aspects and the fact that mints can arbitrarily print unbacked tokens, then ecash is great transactional privacy. Not really adopted anywhere yet though.


Whirlpool is obfuscation, nothing is hidden. All amounts and connections are visible. Need to run your own dojo or you give away your xpubs. Weak to Sybil attacks. Requires centralized coordinator. Expensive, slow, and tedious.

Lightning we can already rule out the way 95% of users use it with custodial or LSP wallets that have full insight. For the few sovereign users left: receiver privacy sucks, amounts can be probed, IP exposed by default, onchain footprint data leaks. And unless you're only going to send and receive from the other 5 unannounced nodes that exist, you route thru centralized nodes that reduce any help from onion routing.

Liquid is traceable. Only hides amounts. Custodial.


Congrats 🥳
You kind of solved the problem for 0.01% of users that will do that.

Now here are the other privacy problems that come with LN, that Monero doesn't have, for the 0.01% of those users:
-Receivers have notoriously bad privacy
-Amounts can be probed by a large routing node
-Data gleaned from onchain footprint used to open/close channels(including name of node you opened/closed the channel to/from)
-Any effectiveness of onion routing is reduced/nullified if most of the network is using large centralized nodes to transact (which is incentivized for successful routing and cheapest fees)

Here are general LN problems (that neither Bitcoin nor Monero have):
-can't send larger amounts
-need to have sufficiently funded channels to use
-can't receive offline
-requires a hot wallet to receive
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-can be force closed against your will

Here are the problems specific to Phoenix:
-Centralized servers in France
-They calculate routes for you so know amounts and destinations
-They allow you to receive by being a middle man so permissioned
-You pay them extra to transact
-If they go offline, your wallet is useless
https://phoenix.acinq.co/privacy
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix

There is a reason no one uses the Lightning Network on Darknet Markets.

Here are some people you may know talking about the state of lightning privacy:

"Lightning right now is a privacy nightmare" -Giacomo
https://youtu.be/P1PRKKlI-Jo?si=OXtZUHPiBmanbNuC&t=1691

LN devs telling you its not private:
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy
https://abytesjourney.com/lightning-privacy/

"We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability."
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf


If you already have cryptocurrencies, you can find instant change using:
https://trocador.app
https://orangefren.com
https://intercambio.app

atomic exchange with:
https://unstoppableswap.net
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases
https://basicswapdex.com

Or buy with fiat money using:
https://localmonero.co
https://bisq.network
https://learn.robosats.com

They are all KYC-free. Every option has Tor by default, or at least has it available.


Confidential Transactions used in Monero are ZKPs

And Full Chain Membership Proofs are down the road


Ecash is custodial and mints can print IOUs unbacked by Bitcoin.

Literally throws away the two main things Bitcoin was trying to solve.


We don't need to, nor are we the ones you should worry about.

Getalby and Blockstream can. Even if you trust them, they can be coerced to track you by government and you would never know with a gag order.

Privacy is between sender and receiver.
Not sender+reciever+third party. Otherwise it is not different from Paypal, Venmo, or a traditional bank.

Also, FYI, Liquid is traceable, it only hides amounts. Not senders and receivers like Monero.


A fanatic is upset about other fanatics 😂

You must be kidding about the no bitcoin arrests from chain analysis...DNM OGs like this get busted almost a decade later for a single on chain mistake:
https://fortune.com/2023/04/14/bitcoin-thief-james-zhong-sentenced-to-prison/

But even worse, peoples bitcoin are blacklisted, and wrongly accused and imprisoned because they are tangentially connected based on chain analysis:
https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/
https://cointelegraph.com/news/cipher-trace-expert-says-chainalysis-data-contributed-wrongful-arrest-alleged-bitcoin-fog-founder


The hell it can't. 99.9% users will be using Bitcoin "as-is" and it is a traceable public blockchain by default. Canada trucker protests showed how easy it's transparency can be used as an inlet for coercion.

BTCSessions, one of the most knowledgeable Canadian bitcoiners, was a poignant example. Censorship resistance didn't help when government sent men with guns to his house. The random Joe has no chance.


Si ya tienes criptomonedas, puedes encontrar un cambio instantáneo usando:
https://trocador.app
https://orangefren.com
https://intercambio.app

intercambio atómico con:
https://unstoppableswap.net
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases
https://basicswapdex.com

O compre con dinero fiduciario usando:
https://localmonero.co
https://bisq.network
https://learn.robosats.com

Todos son sin KYC. Todos tienen Tor por defecto, o al menos lo tienen disponible.


You're arguing with LN developers. Not me.

A meager linear increase isn't scaling. Nowhere close to a "scaling solution". LN isn't able to onboard even a fraction of the world.

LN doesn't even work in high fee environments (the future of Bitcoin). We get a taste of this every time blocks are full like recent ordinal craze. And that was nothing.

What happens when your channel is forced closed in the future and you're back on chain again? The frequency of this and value lost increases the more popular LN gets.

Channel Force Close Bot
https://coracle.social/npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v


It's already widely accepted LN doesn't actually scale. If you still think so, you've been duped.

“In the future, if you have this one-megabyte restricted blocksize and the Lightning Network, it is still the rich people and companies that can use lightning but the average user probably can’t.” -Tadge Dryja, co-author of The Lightning Network White Paper
https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/tadge-dryja-on-the-limitations-of-the-lightning-network

https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations


trocador.app

make any payment with Monero regardless if they accept it or not


He's talking about privacy. He concedes privacy is essential to freedom. Bitcoin isn't private.


Bitcoin and Lightning don't scale either so...


MimbleWimble is definitely underrated for scalability + privacy


Using something like https://0xchat.com ?


"Guy loses 25 btc after his real life identity got linked to his address. Privacy is king!"

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=ZEYuy5rurmU


Also, do different coordinators all share the same pool of coinjoiners? Or is each one different?


How do you choose a different coordinator in Wasabi Wallet? And where can we find different coordinators? Is there a list of some anywhere?


Fair point


I'd like to know this info too


There is no coordinator fee charged but you still have mining fees for every round on WabiSabi, no?

Yea I know about the toxic change part of Whirlpool. Seems like a trade off for completely uniform indistinguishable input/output amounts.
While the decreased privacy for the being the largest amount in WabiSabi rounds is the trade off for increased flexibility of input/output amounts.


npub1pww7030g95nv9ptfpgfu69jpfxj6pm33xxueztsupwekce45wx4sm6en60

Makes sense and looks good to me. What do you think Kruw?


Do you mean worse obfuscation per mixing round? Doesn't that depend on how many rounds you Whirlpool? (remixing is free, Wasabi isn't)

This is why I find the bolted-on wallet-based "privacy" of bitcoin coinjoins tedious and constant drama tiring.

It's easier just to press send on a Monero transaction and gain superior privacy to either one with way cheaper fees. Larger anon set and no centralized coordinators involved either.


Whirlpool with Samourai(mobile) or Sparrow(desktop), keep remixing for day/weeks, and send to cold wallet.

Run from your own dojo or they get your xpubs


If you wanted to break links correctly you would do #1 and wait some time (just say a day or so, the longer the better though) then do #2 but break up the amount and stagger the timing you send them

Going in and out quickly and in a single amount would be relatively trivial to see on chain


Partly correct.

Monero amounts and addresses are not visible, period.
Ring signatures obfuscate senders (visible, but probabilistic)

Cashu is also very good privacy. Amounts, senders, receivers all hidden even from the mints themselves.

A few differences are that Monero is self-custodial, Cashu isn't, so you can be rugged.
Every mint can also arbitrarily print Cashu tokens unbacked by Bitcoin.
Not possible with Monero.


The first quote literally said it isn't
The rest are saying it without saying it
All your Bitcoin maxi heros secretly use Monero 🧡


I don't believe Bitcoin is a good digital ***cash***
What don't you get about that? Cheap transactions and privacy.  I'm out of ways to explain it to you.


Neither one technically. Coinjoins don't give privacy, they obfuscate ownership, all connections are still visible. And swapping from XMR back to Bitcoin means your coins are no longer private.

If you think obfuscating ownership is good enough to fool tracing #1

If you're trying to fully break the link to your original coins #2 (swap back using a different exchange, different amounts, and stagger the timing)

Both of the above you have to trust yourself not to make future consolidation mistakes.

If you want true privacy, that is easy and cheap to use, use Monero directly (amounts and addresses not visible at all)


It is? These guys dont think so 🤔

"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works."-Max Hillbrand
"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor
"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo
"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos
"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell
"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" - John McAfee
"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser
"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry
"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious"-Amir Taaki
"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today"-Samourai Wallet
"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones (crypto) Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc


This is the drooling maxi shit I'm talking about. The sad state of it. You take any BTC criticism as a personal attack so flail out against a strawman that doesn't exist. So fragile.

It would be interesting to see how often you use Bitcoin without intermediaries and, if so, how much wealth you've lost to fees. What about KYC and chain analysis? Do you just bend over and try to relax for that part?


Fyi all your Bitcoin maxi heros secretly use Monero


If you're using custodial wallets like WoS or even Phoenix and Zeus they can see everything because they do the routing for you. You should at least use different wallets for the LN hops. For the swap back to onchain you should split up the amount and stagger timing too.


Sure, but it's less than a cent per transaction. And the longer you wait the more likely you'll automatically be chosen as a decoy for others without even having to make a transaction.


Yes, it's called churning. Remember amounts and receivers are completely hidden from the blockchain. The only thing visible are senders, but theyre obfuscated thru ring rigs.

1 transaction is 1 in 16 chance = ~6% chance to guess that you're the sender
2 transactions = ~0.4%
3 transactions = ~0.02%
...etc

I would stagger your self sends over time, not back to back. Less than a cent to transact anyways.

And over time youre automatically chosen as decoys for the transactions of others - further compounding your obfuscation to a ridiculous degree


What imaginary gotcha do you think you have me on? Reread what I said previously until it clicks


Use two different exchanges for each swap.

Exchange A will know you swapped 'X' Bitcoin for Monero, but not know where it went.
Exchange B will know you swapped 'X' Monero for Bitcoin, but not know where it came from.

If you want to eliminate the small chance of collusion between exchanges, paranoia dial to max, do both swaps p2p with different peers using Bisq, Robosats, and/or LocalMonero

You can send everything to XMR for the first swap, but for the second swap - send different amounts to BTC and stagger the timing. A few days maybe.


This is not true. You'll likely spend less (at worst the same) and gain true privacy, not just obfuscation. I use to Whirlpool all the time.


Yes, you'll still break links to yourself if you first swap to XMR then back to BTC in different amounts and stagger the timing, but there will always be a record that you bought X amount of Bitcoin at Y time tied to your identity. That will eventually be leaked, hacked, and/or given to government. This stuff happens very often


LTC is pretty nice as a bridge to XMR since most exchanges have it and very cheap to transact. Also, MWEB (MimbleWimble Extension Block) gives very good privacy. It hides amounts and address completely just like Monero *BUT* spenders are visible very briefly when the transaction is broadcast (although you have to grab the data at the time it happens or it's gone forever) where Monero obfuscates spenders with ring signatures.

Not a lot of places accept MWEB directly (you have to peg out to a transparent address), no mobile support, and the pool is pretty small...but still very good privacy vs most crypto


Non sequitur. That has nothing to do with my points about it being bad as a currency or digital cash. And I am clear on that when relevant or asked. Search through my history. Gold vs cash, and saving vs spending analogy used all the time.


Show me what Bitcoin layer I can use right now that gives me strong default privacy, cheap transactions, and doesn't give up sovereignty over my money


Ja, wenn Sie dies tun, unterbrechen Sie die Verbindung zu sich selbst und sind jetzt ein "anonymer" Besitzer der neuen Münzen, aber das macht die Geschichte der neuen Münzen nicht ungeschehen. Sie hatten ihre eigene Geschichte, bevor Sie sie erhielten, und können immer noch verfolgt werden. Nehmen wir zum Beispiel an, dass sie in ihrer jüngeren Vergangenheit mit Dark-Net-Marktaktivitäten in Verbindung standen. Das könnte sich negativ auf die Fungibilität auswirken und es könnte sein, dass sie zurückgewiesen oder eingefroren werden, wenn man sie irgendwo hinschickt, z. B. an eine Börse oder wenn man etwas auf den weißen Märkten kauft. Wenn Sie hauptsächlich p2p-Geschäfte tätigen, ist dies weniger ein Problem.

Ok, ich verstehe jetzt, was Sie über das Coinjoining zuerst auf der Hauptkette und dann das Senden an Liquid sagen. Das macht Sinn, um Verbindungen zu unterbrechen. Obwohl es nicht ideal ist, dass Liquid verwahrend und rückverfolgbar ist.


You can't think of a single layer that does this can you? 😂


This is your privacy on "lightning" Mr Wallet of Satoshi
❌ amounts
❌ receiver
❌ self custodial

Lightning doesn't have strong default private. It was designed around fast and cheap payments for retail with privacy as an afterthought. Receiving privacy is bad. And 95% of users are on custodial wallets that see everything anyways (like you).
✅ amounts
❌ receiver
✅ self custodial

Liquid only hides amount and is custodial.
✅ amounts
❌ receiver
❌ self custodial

Coinjoins hide nothing, they obfuscate ownership, but everything is visible. Expensive, slow, and tedious too.
❔ amounts
❔ receiver
✅ self custodial

Ecash is the only one with really good privacy, but too bad it's custodial and mints can print unbacked tokens
✅ amounts
✅ receiver
❌ self custodial

Monero hides amounts and addresses completely and is self custodial 🥱🥇
✅ amounts
✅ receiver
✅ self custodial


What Bitcoin layer is a full replace for Monero right now? You keep talking about layer and havent showed me one


Who cares? It's open source and permissionless. The important thing is ability to opt out.

If you don't like an update you can swap your Monero for a different crypto and no one can stop you. Or you can get together with others that don't like it and fork the code.

Show me what Bitcoin layer I can use right now that gives me strong default privacy, cheap transactions, and doesn't give up sovereignty over my money


Exactly, you do that because it would be too expensive for moving these little amounts all the time thus my original point that it isn't a good currency. And because of LNs complexity you settle for intermediaries and give up sovereignty over your money; the whole point of Bitcoin


Isn't there already more than enough uncritical praise of Bitcoin on here? You act as if I'm saying these things out of the blue and unprovoked

I'm in a sea of maxis that constantly trash a useful tool and the only argument drooling out most of them is because it's not Bitcoin. Do you consider that an intellectually honest satisfactory answer? I don't. So yea I'm going to say shit

Everything has downsides. Bitcoin isn't perfect. Moneros trade offs make it a better digital cash. That takes nothing away from Bitcoins strengths.


Because it sacrifices the main value props of Bitcoin; freedom from seigniorage, custodians, and censorship. Monero retains those things AND has great privacy. More Monero adoption as well.


Cash isn't an investment you use it. Bitcoin is bad currency. You implicitly cede that by using getalby for zaps.


At this stage, maybe a sophisticated player could, but not without first diverting resources away from their current intended purposes and considering the opportunity cost. Its not like those servers are just sitting around doing nothing. Any botnets are also competing always in flux with other botnets to do the same.

ASICs also have many flaws...

-ASICs can't match the ubiquity and accessibility of CPU mining which is more conducive to decentralization.
-Ostensibly harder to attack, but if successful, much harder to deploy new ASICs to fight back since they're in such short supply
-Large concentrated mining farms are easy to co-opt and regulate for governments.
-Heat, noise, and energy draw make ASIC mining obvious in general
-Everyone knows what you're doing with that ASIC miner
-Over half the hashpower now requires KYC
-No p2pool. Stratumv2 helps but isn't sufficient. Large pool operators control payout.
-Targeted censorship possible

I want to use the best tools for the job. Whatever carries the original spirit. I have no loyalty towards an individual coin or name just for it's own sake.


I knew you were going to link this website.
If you notice almost none of those cryptos use the same PoW algo. A direct comparison like this makes no sense. It's like saying a person that weighs 80kg weighs less than 130lbs

Ecash has great privacy, but sacrifices the main value props of Bitcoin; freedom from seigniorage, custodians, and censorship. If you want to retain those things, AND have great privacy, Monero does

Even though I have my criticisms of current Bitcoin L2s, I always think the more options the better and everyone can choose what makes sense to their situation


Who cares

Fluffy didn't create Monero, wasn't the only person in the project, and the code is open source

Luke eats cats, censors transactions based on his religion, and is paid by Blockstream. Do you still trust Bitcoin? Ok then


Bitcoin scales better *if you're doing completely transparent transactions*. Apples to oranges.

-Not decentralized? ~22,500 visible nodes and literally anyone can mine.
-Final settlement standard is 10 confs = 20 mins -VS- Bitcoin 3 confs = 30 mins
-Tail emission (less than gold, so scary), dynamic blocksize (cheap fees), and inflation bug risk (because we actually get strong privacy and fungibility for that trade) are better if the goal is digital cash


Não é um bicho-papão, são apenas factos. Não se pode ter verdadeira liberdade sem privacidade. Os cypherpunks que abriram o caminho para o Bitcoin entenderam isso. Embora pareça que muitos Bitcoiners esqueceram ou não sabem disso.


Parece que muitos Bitcoiners importantes discordam de si...

"Talvez precises de um Monero"
-Michael Saylor

"Monero é um complemento de privacidade muito bom para o Bitcoin"
-Nick Szabo

"Para uma privacidade realmente forte, o Monero é muito melhor"
-Andreas Antonopoulos

"Há muitas vantagens em usar o Monero"
-Matt Odell

"Monero é a única maldita moeda que é usada!"
- John McAfee

"Monero será um campeão nesse espaço e teremos um duopólio Bitcoin-Monero"
-Max Keiser

"Todos os sistemas fiat e todos os tokens fora do Bitcoin e do monero (que eu saiba) têm intermediários dos quais não nos podemos livrar"
-Adam Curry

"Eu diria que o Monero não é uma shitcoin. Penso que é um projeto de investigação muito inovador e novo que funciona".
-Max Hillbrand

"Monero; Basta usá-lo. Objetivamente, é melhor do que a Bitcoin [em termos de privacidade]... é óbvio"
-Amir Taaki

"O Monero está mais próximo dos nossos corações do que aquilo em que o Bitcoin se está a transformar hoje"
-Samourai Wallet


Bitcoin? The high tx fee coin that calls itself "electronic cash" that has no privacy?

Why don't you break it's asic resistance then? What are you waiting for? The bounty is millions every month just for you!


Do you ever use Bitcoin privately? Do you use Bitcoin at all? Doesn't seem like it

Monero is great for small accumulation over time before swapping to BTC or swapping out your toxic change

XMRBTC swings either way if were talking about a time scale of months
How do I know this and a price obsessed maxi like yourself doesn't?🤦♂


Nearly no fees ***as long as onchain fees are low***

It costs half a cent to transact on Monero. You would think a big Bitcoin stacker like yourself could afford that.

And what does any of this have to do with privacy?

You're aren't even using lightning! You're on Wallet of Satoshi like 95% of LN users because sovereign UX sucks and you know it!


Das macht Coinjoins auf Bitcoin in gewisser Weise überflüssig, wenn Sie nur versuchen, Links zu brechen. Aber Sie erben die gesamte Geschichte der Münze, die Sie getauscht haben.

Dennoch ist Coinjoin praktisch, wenn Sie Bitcoin aus irgendeinem Grund verwenden müssen.

Übrigens verbirgt Liquid nur Beträge. Es versteckt nicht auch Adressen oder verschleiert Absender wie Monero. Liquid ist außerdem verwahrend und hat im Vergleich dazu eine extrem geringe Anonymität.


Like Carter said, Stack Duo, though admittedly not as extensive privacy features as something like Samourai Wallet (yet?). Also Samourai Wallet just released BTC<>XMR atomic swap beta a few days ago.


Pros, cons, and similarities to each one.

Eventually failed as *currency* because the world economy globalized (expensive to move with any frequency like Bitcoin) not because gold has small yearly inflation. Because golds extremely long and stable history it is *still* way more popular today than Bitcoin around the world.

By that logic makes no sense to use Bitcoin either. Doesn't even have 2% adoption versus fiat money.


Privacy was the central theme of the cypherpunk origins of bitcoin, not this emerging culture of treating it like an afterthought. You can't have freedom without privacy. And Ngu means nothing if you can't use it as a currency because it is too expensive to transact.

Monero has less inflation than gold. Would you say gold is being debased? There is a major difference between a central party having special privilege to arbitrarily print money out of thin air at virtually zero cost VS PoW/mining it


Where is he disagreeing with you?

Well until that happens we have Monero to fill that digital cash role


Ecash is custodial and mints can print unbacked tokens

Literally gives up the two main value props of Bitcoin


Understandable. Thats why a lot of users save in Bitcoin, and spend in Monero. Gold vs cash. Or savings vs checkings analogy.

Fluffy didn't create Monero.
Moneros creator was an anon.
Fluffy was a previous maintainer that hasn't been in that position for awhile. Isn't even involved with Monero anymore.

Gold is inflationary and was the premier money for civilization for several millenia. Monero has less inflation than gold, so I think it will be ok.

Either way Monero is not trying to compete as a SoV against Bitcoin. Makes no promises about that. It's aim is permissionless digital cash.


You don't swap every time you want to spend

You swap a chunk into Monero that will last you X amount of time i.e. several weeks/months, and spend that Monero directly. Savings vs checkings model. If you're mainly a hodler I guess this doesn't help you though.

What is stopping you from using Bisq, Robosats, or Agoradesk to buy Bitcoin p2p and no-KYC?
You can also just buy Monero first (even from a CEX like Kraken if you must) and then swap into Bitcoin on a DEX or instant swapper. Link to your identity is actually broken this way if you do the random timing, amount split, IP mask thing we talked about earlier.

If regulators don't like Moneros strong effective privacy - they aren't going to allow strong effective privacy layers like Ecash

Feels like Tradfi is reverse trojan horsing BTC lately tbh


Is this the part where you shill a surveillable and prohibitively expensive transaction system as digital cash?


The main value props of Bitcoin are freedom from seigniorage and censorship. You cannot engage in commerce inside white markets without following laws and regulations, so you lose censorship resistance for any use inside them.

If the law now says you cannot directly use Bitcoin inside white markets without some intermediary or custodian that issues "bitcoin backed" tokens for you, you now lose any protection from seigniorage on white markets. Public adoption of Bitcoin is already headed in a custodial and tradfi direction.

So, yes maybe you're right, but what good is all that adoption when it's missing the two things that make Bitcoin what it is?

The only real lasting and unstoppable use case is outside white markets and there is another rising star on that stage that isn't Bitcoin


So you've swapped a private permissionless cash into a surveillable permissioned one

Weird flex


XMRBTC is objectively slightly up/break even over it's lifetime. There is a reason people jokingly call it the real stablecoin

If price performance is your goal - it's much smarter to swing trade some of your BTC into the big macro trends that occur during the period around roughly a year after the halving, and then sweep profits back into BTC roughly a year before the next halving - instead of purely hodling


Most of Monero downsides can be side-stepped by simply using Bitcoin as savings, Monero as spending

Bitcoins only real contender to Moneros privacy so far are Ecash/Fedimints. But these are both custodial and mints can arbitrarily print unbacked tokens. You gain strong privacy but give away both foundational pillars of Bitcoin in the process (freedom from seigniorage and censorship/confiscation)

You can keep both and still have strong privacy with Monero


The thing I can't stress enough is that only amounts are hidden. It is trivial to see sender and receiver in Liquid so can easily be traced in and followed the whole way out. Waiting and breaking it up does nothing to help this. It has the exact same traceability as doing a normal Bitcoin transaction.

You need to do one of the following:
1) Coinjoin/Whirlpool (Alice sent to either Bob, Charlie, or Dave)
2) Ring signatures + stealth addresses (Maybe Alice sent to [?])
3) Full ZKPs ([?] sent to [?])
These are the only things that would help resist or eliminate tracing. Liquid does none of this.

All someone has to do is follow your first transaction in, follow the multiple branches going thru and out of Liquid, add up the amounts that left and know you are extremely likely the same person.


Não é possível contornar o problema da não fungibilidade do Bitcoin sem um hardfork. O Bitcoin é teoricamente fungível a nível de protocolo, mas não no mundo real porque as histórias tornam-no único. A privacidade e a fungibilidade são basicamente a mesma coisa quando se trata de coisas como as criptomoedas, em que todas as transacções são transmitidas ao mundo.

"Não se pede gentilmente a ninguém que não gaste as nossas moedas; apenas as protegemos utilizando uma chave criptográfica.
Da mesma forma, não se pede gentilmente a toda a gente que não distinga as suas unidades monetárias; apenas as torna *tecnicamente* indistinguíveis, ou seja, fungíveis."

A oferta total de ouro também não pode ser determinada especificamente, só podemos saber que a oferta é estável indiretamente devido ao preço, no entanto foi usado durante vários milénios como dinheiro.

-Monero tem o volume de negócios nº 1 no Bisq, o maior DEX do Bitcoin, mesmo acima das moedas fiduciárias
-Monero é a estrela preferida e em ascensão da moeda do mercado darknet. O local de nascimento do Bitcoin.
-Samourai Wallet, um dos maiores projectos de junção de moedas Bitcoin, está a introduzir swaps Monero em breve.
-A maioria dos projectos de privacidade FOSS e empresas aceitam pagamentos e até preferem doações em Monero (Tor, IVPN, Mullvad, SimpleLogin, AnonAddy, SimpleX, Molly, GrapheneOS, Silent Link, CoinCards, ShopInBit, etc)
-A maioria dos educadores de privacidade e criadores de conteúdos proeminentes aceitam donativos Monero (Seth For Privacy, Gabriel Custodiet, Mental Outlaw, The Hated One, Rafael LaVerde, Naomi Brockwell, Surveillance Report, Rehrar, Sam Bent, Juraj Bednar, etc.)
-Os programadores do Ethereum estão a desenvolver trocas atómicas com o Monero
-BCH acaba de concluir uma troca atómica Monero
-DarkFi está a fazer merge mining com Monero
-Tor implementou um algoritmo de prova de trabalho baseado no algoritmo de extração do Monero

Apoios de importantes Bitcoiners:
"Talvez precises de um Monero" -Michael Saylor
"O Monero é um complemento de privacidade muito bom para a Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo
"Para uma privacidade realmente forte, o Monero é muito melhor" -Andreas Antonopoulos
"Há muitas vantagens em usar o Monero" -Matt Odell
"Monero é a única maldita moeda que é usada!" - John McAfee
"O Monero será um campeão nesse espaço [privacidade] e teremos um duopólio Bitcoin-Monero" -Max Keiser
"Todos os sistemas fiat e todos os tokens fora do Bitcoin e do monero (que eu saiba) têm intermediários dos quais não nos podemos livrar"- Adam Curry
"Eu diria que o Monero não é uma shitcoin. Penso que é um projeto de investigação muito inovador e novo que funciona."-Max Hillbrand
"Monero; Basta usá-lo. Objetivamente, é melhor do que a Bitcoin [em termos de privacidade]... é óbvio"-Amir Taaki
"Bitcoin é a moeda de reserva. Segurem-na. As moedas de privacidade são privacidade transacional. Use-as... Monero: getmonero.org" -Balaji

...É evidente que existe uma procura significativa de Monero no mercado, pelo que está longe de ser inútil


Não é possível monitorizar ou ligar certas moedas no Monero porque o valor e os endereços não são visíveis de todo. As moedas não têm historial. Não existe um gráfico de transacções como no Bitcoin.

Monero ou é tudo permitido ou tudo proibido. Não se pode dividi-lo em moedas sujas e limpas como se pode fazer com o Bitcoin ou ser seletivo. É isso que torna o Bitcoin não fungível.
A uniformidade necessária para a fungibilidade é mutuamente exclusiva da história única do Bitcoin.

A maioria dos utilizadores de Bitcoin fazem KYC e não fazem coinjoin porque é caro, tedioso e demorado. Qualquer pessoa com quem se faça uma transação pode ver pelo menos os saldos parciais, se não os saldos totais.
Mesmo que se faça coinjoin, é ofuscado, mas não é verdadeira privacidade porque tudo continua visível e, portanto, mais vulnerável à análise da cadeia e ao erro do utilizador.

Por sua própria admissão, a privacidade não é um crime, você é uma conta anónima no Nostr, está a falar em não associar a identidade às carteiras e está a sugerir coinjoins. As pessoas não precisam de uma desculpa para querer privacidade.

✅ oculto > ❔ visível, mas ofuscado > ❌ visível

Bitcoin:
❌montantes
❌endereços

Bitcoin(Coinjoin):
❔montantes
❔endereços

Monero:
✅montantes
✅endereços


No, once you leave L-BTC it is no longer confidential.
It would be more effective to swap to XMR and back to BTC. Fraction of a cent to transact too.

XMR hides amounts + hides addresses + obfuscates senders

Liquid only hides amounts.
And it's anon set is abysmal.

Just remember whatever you decide to do, for maximum effectiveness...

1) Wait at least a day or so before swapping back into btc. The longer you wait the better.
2) Don't swap it all back to BTC in one shot. Break it up over a few chunks. DO NOT consolidate after.
3) Do the first swap on 'exchange A'. Do the second swap on 'exchange B'. Do this behind Tor or at least a good vpn like Mullvad and/or Change your tor identity or vpn server for each swap.

Exchange aggregator: trocador.app


A auditoria é efectuada com base nos "Pedersen Commitments", pelo que se baseia na solidez dos esquemas criptográficos estabelecidos a partir da década de 1980, mas tem razão, uma vez que não é possível efetuar uma auditoria manual simples como a do Bitcoin. Não que qualquer Bitcoiners faça isso de qualquer maneira. Limitam-se a gerir um nó.

Por esta troca, obtém-se privacidade e fungibilidade. Mais importante para um dinheiro digital. Não está a tentar ser uma espécie de ouro digital como a Bitcoin e não faz promessas de reserva de valor.

Além disso, todas as transacções da Coinbase são transparentes. Por isso, é possível contar manualmente todas as moedas mineradas à medida que entram na oferta.


Store of value is something that you cant promise technically. It is based on speculation. Historical trends can't predict future performance. Bitcoin is only 15 years old. Supply is only half the picture for price, you also need demand which Bitcoin can't control.

While Monero retains it's utility at any price. Sovereign, private, and cheap method of transferring value.


Monero never claims to be a store of value or makes any promises about that. Thats a Bitcoin thing.

We would know there was an inflation bug indirectly when the price abruptly started tanking to zero.
But you can sidestep all those worries by only using Monero as digital cash and using Bitcoin as a store of value.

Ok that's true. But transparent supply doesn't make Bitcoin immune to exploited supply inflation bugs and their aftermath. No good solution for that. Hardfork out all the fake Bitcoin and screw over all users and merchants that gave away real products and services, or break the 21 million meme. Both would be pretty disastrous for confidence and price.


Then don't hold it, use it, and save in Bitcoin and you sidestep that problem

Performance also highly depends when you bought that XMR and how long you hold it.
Days, weeks, months, a few years?
No one knows how XMR/BTC will perform on those scales. It's anyones guess.
Did you buy back at the start of 2021? You're about even
Did you buy a year ago? You're down
Did you buy a week ago? You're up

Are we near a crypto bull market? probably smart to swap some XMR to BTC
Are we near a crypto bear market? probably smart to swap some BTC to XMR


O seu objetivo nunca foi ser uma reserva de valor

O Monero é suposto ser dinheiro digital sem permissão. É simples e barato de usar e protege a privacidade. É suposto gastá-lo. Você ainda pode usar o Bitcoin para economizar dinheiro.

Os valores e endereços das transacções são completamente invisíveis na blockchain do Monero. Os gastadores são ofuscados com assinaturas de anel.

É possível auditar o Monero, mas isso envolve mais complexidade do que o Bitcoin, por isso é um compromisso. A privacidade e a auditabilidade são mutuamente exclusivas, pelo que teve de ser feita uma escolha. A privacidade é mais importante para a moeda digital.


The massive centralizing routing hubs of LN reduce and sometimes even negate the benefit of onion routing. But this is besides the point because 95% of LN users are on custodial wallets or LSPs that give them none of that privacy anyway.


Lightning does not have the default, well-rounded, strong privacy of Monero. It's designed around fast and cheap payments for retail with privacy as an afterthought.

ecash is custodial and mints can print unbacked tokens, so it's dodging 2 out of the 3 major pillars of Bitcoin


The guy who said that also said "Maybe you need a Monero" so pretty funny

If Monero remains a dark market niche that would be fine. Any crypto use on white markets is asking permission by definition, no matter how popular it becomes, defeating the entire point of it.

You're right though people really don't give a fuck about privacy. But they also don't care about sovereignty that Bitcoin offers either. Both of which are taken for granted until it affects them.

All that potentially matters for the general public is Bitcoin price exposure and custodial instruments which means easy price manipulation.


LOL! That backpedal

"wE do noT HAVe pRivaCY"

*hides private keys and uses encrypted messengers*


your friend sounds like a 200 IQ giga chad


Then why do you bother hiding your Bitcoin private keys if you think privacy isn't possible? Why do you use SimpleX chat?

Checkmate 👑


No kidding this winter weather has been brutal. But you really should get in touch with Gratuitas when you can. You are exactly the type of vendor they would love to have. Decentralized producers from all around. Seems like a perfect match to me at least.

I see. Maybe I have my terms mixed up. All I know is many aspects of Monero are more conducive to a digital cash than Bitcoin. If one doesn't care about the combination of sovereignty, privacy, and very cheap transactions I can see how it might not be as appealing. But your grievances about its relatively smaller adoption and niche uses are fair. I'm not a maxi either though. I think people should just use whatever tools they personally find useful.


Because MyMonero wallet is a lite wallet it is not great for privacy. Although slightly more convenient, they know a lot more about your transcations than using something like Cake Wallet, Monerujo, Stack Wallet, etc.

Also, even the creator recommends avoiding their web wallet because of all the security issues involved.

Just a heads up if you didn't know.


Monero offers outstanding privacy even if you don't run your own node. The same cannot be said of Bitcoin or Lightning.


Yes, I hear you, it is unidirectional unfortunately. Gotta wait for DEXs like Haveno or Serai. You can use something like Trocador in the meanwhile. That's how I do it and don't have any problems swapping in or out of any crypto and pay next to nothing. I think it would be more economically rational to accept most crypto as payment and convert them all to Bitcoin (or whatever) and you could still be Bitcoin-only.

Outside of DNMs, Monero is definitely more niche atm. Do you know about Monerica and MoneroMarket? There is also XMRBazaar. Not out yet, but should be soon.
monerica.com
moneromarket.io

As for nostr zaps for Monero, looks like AnarkioCrypto is going to start working on the bounty for it sometime next month.
https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/20-991m-nostr-client-for-monero

Bitcoin as a SoV does hold true so far so understand the pragmatism for using it as a long term savings. But performance highly dependent on when the Monero was acquired. Holding Monero short to medium term (weeks to months and even years) could go either way. Both are volatile on those scales. For example, if you held Monero from start of 2021 until now you would be pretty much even if you had held Bitcoin instead. All of 2022 Monero more than doubled Bitcoins performance. Monero seems to generally do better during bear markets. Shouldn't be a concern on shorter time scales especially if one is just using modest amounts as cash imo.

Humble recommendation. You say you started a farm to sell meat for Monero? Get in contact with Doug Tuman to get on Gratuitas! @DouglasTuman on Twitter, podcast host of MoneroTalk/Monerotopia. You'll have a wider reach. There are a few vendors there already that are Bitcoin/Monero people (Beisnerd sells maple syrup, and AUPA bar duo sells pemmican bars). I buy from Gratuitas all the time.

gratuitas.org


unstoppableswap.net has a simple GUI you might like

A lot of the community is excited for SeraiDEX. Should be out sometime this year as well:
serai.exchange


Exchanges

trocador.app
kycnot.me


It's just software bro, it's not some law of physics. If consensus changes in the future, especially as mining security decreases because of falling block rewards, even "absolute mathematical scarcity" can change. Several Bitcoin Developers, including Peter Todd, are open to tail emission in Bitcoins future.
"Could Bitcoin Add Tail Emission?"
https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary

Speaking of dust, the more popular Bitcoin becomes, the larger the dust limit grows, ironically!

Only facts here. Monero IS better when it comes to cheap, simple, and private transactions. Better digital cash. Sorry if that upsets you so much. Find a healthier way to deal with it. Better historical store of value? Bitcoin wins.

I didn't ask for your suggestions. And no one will with your bad attitude. You just inserted yourself into this conversation and were hostile from the start. LN is an overly complex dumpster fire, with half-ass "privacy", and garbage UX.  Even it's creators agree with me! So take your suggestions and kindly GFY!


I never said scarcity is not important, I just don't hyperfixate on it because it isn't the whole picture as yall make it out to be.

Irrelevant link, but if you're taking Seths word as gospel, are you going to now use Monero? Because Seth is a big Monero proponent and more aligned with my perspective. He uses both for different reasons the same way I do.


Don't you dare criticize any aspect of Bitcoin! /s

I was in a similar position a couple years ago. The answers from the zealots were never satisfactory. Was always shot down for asking legitimate questions, but that is very common in this space. Learned better and found others who were more intellectually honest.
Check out "Monero Directory" account follows/followers for more like-minded users: npub1r27775s4thzj5gdz4j0dr8jygvtldnur2qxlzw0muu7z57k83c4qtsyqx6

Don't worry about dogma. Use the best tools for the job.

In terms of private, simple, cheap transactions, Monero is just hands down better than whirlpooling/coinjoining. I would only use Whirlpool if I had no other choice and had to use Bitcoin.

Privacy:
Amounts and addresses are COMPLETELY HIDDEN on Monero (Confidential Transactions + Stealth Addresses). In Whirlpool they are obfuscated, but still visible so strictly more vulnerable to tracing and chain analysis especially thru user mistakes.

Anonymity:
Because your transactions are automatically chosen as decoys for other user transactions that happen, your anon set grows over time passively with no other actions required of you. Every spend from others in a coinjoin potentially reduces your anon set. It is never known if a TXO was spent with Monero, UTXOs don't exist. Coinjoining requires active participation and is only as large as others that are coinjoining with you.

Cheap:
Average cost is less than a cent to transact.

Simplicity:
All this is by default. No special wallets. No tedious and slow process. Just press send.

Censorship resistance:
No centralized coordinators

The only other real contender for privacy is Ecash like Fedimint or Cashu, but they are both custodial and mints can print tokens unbacked by Bitcoin.

There are a lot of people even on Nostr who like to save in Bitcoin, but spend in Monero. I think that is a reasonable position if you are coming from Bitcoin-only territory.

Cake Wallet is great for Monero. Check out Monerujo and Stack Wallet too. If you'r really hardcore about security, check out Anonero (Only available on Tor). Some of the Samourai Wallet guys helped with it's creation if I'm not mistaken: http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion


Lol, always tossing red herrings and arguing in bad faith Yellen. We will never agree so this is pointless. I like your memes though


Any day now. Bitcoin maxis like to constantly tout network effects every chance they get, but pretend it doesn't cuts both ways

No one uses Bitcoin for smart contracts, they use Ethereum
No one uses sidechains(mostly vaporware) like Liquid for privacy on DNMs, they use Monero
No one uses Lightning for cheap and scalable txs, they use Litecoin


Bitcoins price can climb to 1 trillion and it still wont make it private, cheap, or fungible FTFY

Clearer?


Like I said, just because I speculate (betting) Bitcoin will do well as a digital asset in the near term, isn't me saying it is a good digital cash (no privacy, not fungible, expensive to transact). It's no surprise we don't agree if you can't understand these simple differences and separate them in your mind.

You're also mistaken in equating the LN network (which was the original subject that *you* brought up! Not me!) with Bitcoin (on chain). So whatever criticisms I have about the LN network are not the same criticisms I have about Bitcoin.


Doesn't matter. If demand changes the price can drop and we can't control that. 15 years is not a lot of time. Things change. The future is uncertain. Peoples desires are fickle. Price prediction is always speculation.

LN needs more than just sender privacy. Yes, Monero doesn't have perfect privacy either, but it's more well-rounded and specialized than Lightning (sender obfuscation, completely hidden amounts and addresses, network level privacy via dandelion) and all simply by default.

You already know I don't. Difference is I don't take Bitcoin as some inevitable mathematical law of the universe. I know I'm speculating and I know I could be wrong. And I know it's properties aren't ideal for the original goal of digital cash.

Use whatever you feel is best and I'll do the same. We probably agree on 99% of things just not about LN.


Any historical extrapolation about price into the future is speculation. This is what I mean by "so far" as I cannot predict the future with 100% certainty. Bitcoiners hyperfocus on supply, while never acknowledging the other side of the equation that is out of our control: demand. Price discovery is a never ending process. Scarcity doesn't mean nothing without demand.

Liquid is custodial, doesn't hide senders or receivers, IP visible by default, and has a microscopic anon set (most blocks have 0 transactions. Whenever you see only 1 transaction that is the coinbase.) https://liquid.network/blocks

Sovereign Lightning has too many problems to list...Can be rugged if your node is offline, you need to manage channel liquidity, arbitrarily limited in the amount you can send, both parties must be online to receive, can be force closed, etc etc etc... 99% of users aren't going to run their own nodes.

Sender privacy and ephemerality are the highlights of privacy on Lightning.
Receiver privacy is bad.
Amounts are discoverable by probing.
Centralization makes this easier.
Continuing centralization of massive routing nodes negates/reduces any help from onion routing. Majority of network relies on these for successful routing and cheapest fees (incentives opposite to decentralization and privacy)

"Lightning is a privacy nightmare" -Giacomo
https://youtu.be/P1PRKKlI-Jo?si=OXtZUHPiBmanbNuC&t=1691

"Rethinking Lightning" -Benthecarman
https://stacker.news/items/379225

"The problems with LN..." -Paul Sztorc
https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/1719388665107947959

"Lightning Network -- Fundamental Limitations"
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations

Unresolvable critical security issues discovered that cannot be fixed without base layer changes:
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

"All your mempool are belong to us" -Antoine Riard
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

"I consider LN a done deal..." -SBW
https://njump.me/nevent1qqsv5jyfh9gp2qnhruevrph39s2mspzfw3e9mx5avg0wenltrdjnnhgsx4pzg

Devs telling you its not private:
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy

"Are LN users naively thinking LN is private?"
https://stacker.news/items/234993

Channel Force Close Bot
https://coracle.social/npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v

Didn't realize less than half a cent to transact on Monero was so expensive. Especially for all the problems you don't have to deal with vs Lightning.

Be more specific with the word "temporary". The lifespan of the sun is temporary. What use is ephemerality if you don't have strong privacy "now" (ignoring that 95% of lightning users are not private or sovereign)? Maybe Moneros encryption will be completely cracked long after everyone that used it is dead, and Monero has long moved on to better methods (because it is also not static and always improving privacy such as upcoming FCMPs w/ Seraphis)

Finally zero people with skin in the game, like DNMs, whose life depends on privacy, don't use Lightning.


I see. Makes sense. Each has a unique combination of properties (Bitcoin vs Monero vs Cash vs Precious metals), but if you don't need them you don't need them.

Thanks for your two cents


No privacy surveillance chain, NFTs, and growing tx fees make it a shitty digital cash. The fact that you use wallet of satoshi is you partly conceding that on-chain and even lightning are too expensive to use all the time. Sorry if facts make you angry.


Spans all classes of what? I can see that Bitcoin is the current long term champion so far as a digital reserve asset

But long term savings aside, what about in terms of a usable currency? No privacy, weaker fungibility, and expensive to transact on with any frequency


What category would you put physical gold vs Monero?

Both: private, p2p, and without centralized supply issuance.

Cons: More inflation, hard to verify authenticity on the fly, easier to confiscate, not as easily divisible (for change), difficult to carry/send large amounts securely, can't trustlessly trade for crypto (atomic swaps), can't have true simultaneous ownership (multisig), and cannot instantly send to anyone on the planet.

Pros: More liquidity, wider acceptance, solid several millennia history

Can you think of anything else to add to these?


Both can be true. He likes Bitcoin for it's good qualities, but hates the current custodial tradfi movement and the nature of an ETF that turns Bitcoin into an IOU for the masses and kills the main value prop.

Bitcoin has been good for hodling so far, but not even close to ideal for it's original digital cash vision. There are better cryptos out there if you need to move value around cheaply and privately with any frequency.


Ironically, even Michael Saylor, the person who made that beloved maxi quote, said "Maybe you need a Monero"


Monero isn't perfect, but it is better than Bitcoin as a digital cash

Large sharp spikes in demand would increase fees on Monero, but because of dynamic blocks it would adjust to accommodate them over time and fees would fall again even if that demand persisted. The same cannot be said of Bitcoin. Fees will climb and stay high with more demand no matter how much time passes


These people are so emotionally attached they can't even entertain a hypothetical


You're forgetting the whole purpose of Bitcoin. The title of the white paper. Half the world lives hand to mouth. They should have a permissionless, self custodial, cheap, and preferably private network that they can use. Not merely a savings account for the rich and privileged to hodl


And a panopticon network with $60 transaction fees that climb forever is going to go great lmao

Gold was supreme money for several millenia and had more inflation than Monero. Cry about it


What is crazy is none of that makes Bitcoin private

Helps your anonymity though


Yea and how well did alcohol prohibition go? That shit just gets pushed underground and on black markets. That demand doesn't disappear just because people in suits wrote words on paper.

Dude, respectfully, you don't understand how Monero works. Any bug on the decoy selection algorithm for ring signatures has no effect on hidden amounts and addresses. And it is still probabilistic.

Essentially you are saying because Monero doesn't have perfect privacy, it is broken and we should just use a completely public chain like Bitcoin. The logic doesn't follow.

✅ hidden > ❔ visible, but probabilistic > ❌visible, deterministic

Monero default txns with a bug:
✅amounts
✅addresses
❔inputs/outputs

Bitcoin default txns WITHOUT a bug:
❌amounts
❌addresses
❌input/outputs

Bitcoin coinjoin txns WITHOUT a bug:
❔amounts
❔addresses
❔input/outputs

Even when Monero had that bug (now patched) Monero still offered massively more privacy and anonymity over Bitcoin


Of course, not surprising Bitcoin has more total transaction count. It's mcap is ~300x larger than Monero. But it's transaction count is only ~20x larger

Monero has ~8x more use proportional to mcap and growing lions share of the freest markets on earth


"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor

"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo

"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell


What I'm trying to say is that even if someone doesn't believe Monero will be a long term SoV, it's still extremely useful for transferring value short/medium term (cheap and private)


A bitcoin coinjoin wizard with perfect opsec still has inferior privacy versus the most retarded monero user pressing send. It's sad.


Bitcoin might historically be a great SoV

But it is not a great currency or MoE
Expensive, surveillable, and no/weak fungibility

You don't have to use Monero for your savings for it to be a useful p2p digital cash


I don't think it can for above the board income tax...

But it gives you the ability to avoid the tax of rampant arbitrary inflation, cantillon effect, and any transactions that occur within Monero

"While Bitcoin cannot eliminate tax, or even necessarily reduce total takings, it represents a change in the nature of taxation"
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Value-Proposition


That helps with anonymity, but you would just take on the history of the other surveillable coins you swapped for and would still be traceable going forward. You need to either do some kind of coinjoin when you spend or use Monero directly for it to be untraceable.


Collaborative txns gives you weaker privacy, it's ownership obfuscation, nothing is hidden, so it's much more vulnerable to chain surveillance and user mistakes

Monero amounts and addresses are not visible, period

It also doesn't cost an arm and a leg to transact on Monero


"Rethinking Lightning"

https://stacker.news/items/379225


Latest commit was in late December

https://github.com/Monero-HackerIndustrial/MoneroSigner-Companion


Yea, I would say trustless is non-negotiable for any serious project

Hopefully they choose to switch, but even then I'm pretty sure that would involve using turnstiles, like Zcash, which just make it a race between bad actors and honest users to get thru first

Either way I'll keep my eye on it and always reconsider my opinion if things change. Thanks for the info


Accelerated mine is slightly better than a premine, but still not great

Was there a trusted setup for the zk-SNARK?
Dont the notary nodes bring in an aspect of centralization?

I really dont know that much about PirateChain thats why I ask


Nice guide!

I'm sure you already know, but just for people reading it's good practice to only use Monero subaddresses and generate a unique one every time you receive from an exchange (they start with an 8 instead of 4)

This way they don't know you are the same person and subaddresses also protect you from most of the few de-anonymizing attacks left with Monero

You can also buy Monero p2p and non-KYC with fiat from LocalMonero and swap it for Bitcoin or vice versa using trocador.app (exchange aggregator) or choose an exchange off of kycnot.me

Robosats, Hodlhodl, and Peach are other solid options to source Bitcoin non-KYC with fiat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_IYzzC5Zqk&list=PLsSYUeVwrHBnAUre2G_LYDsdo-tD0ov-y&index=14


I like what Mutiny, Phoenix, and Zeus are doing since they make self-custodial simpler (maybe I'm too ideological about it), but no privacy from third parties (them), and it's always more complicated and expensive than just having a static Monero address in my bio or something like so:

89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

I should set one up though 😂
Is LNURL possible with Mutiny or Phoenix?
If not, I'll try it with Zeus


Transaction fees on Monero are on average less than a cent

Depending on payment method you can usually source XMR on LocalMonero for around 0%-3% above market by making an offer and waiting + LocalMonero takes 1% from makers

Pretty dang cheap for non-KYC!


Don't worry about it man, appreciate it though!


interview with Houdini Swap starts around 53:00


Careful with Houdini Swap. Maybe they're legit, but you have to trust them since they know both sides of the swap.

Monero Talk podcast did an interview with them about a year ago explaining how it works and other details if you guys are curious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-8dOdFybOs&t=3182s

If you want to turn up the paranoia dial better to do Swap#1 on 'Exchange A' and do Swap#2 on 'Exchange B'

1. Let some time pass before you do Swap#2. Maybe a day or two. The more time the better. (resists timing analysis)
2. Don't swap it all back in one shot, break it up into a couple chunks (resists amount analysis)
3. Get behind Tor or at least a good VPN. Change Tor identity or VPN server for each swap.


Another way is through Bisq. A little less user friendly, but it's easy once you do it a couple times. More liquidity and payment options too. With current tx fees it might be expensive-ish though.

You could also buy Monero p2p from LocalMonero and swap it for Bitcoin using trocador.app (exchange aggregator) or choose an exchange off of kycnot.me

Remember for all these methods the cheapest way to buy is by making your own offer and waiting. Usually on the scale of hours to days depending how competitive your prices are.

It's easier than you might think. Let us know if you have questions.


A "dump to infinity" and a clear long term positive trend upwards cannot both be true. You're right about many others, but simply look at the long run chart shown. It obviously has other value Bitcoin cannot provide or the trend would be towards zero and it isn't. This is true only for a handful of cryptos other than Monero.

Either way we are already in agreement that BTC has been a better SoV


I've already conceded BTC is a better SoV (so far), my point is that isn't  ideal for other aspects like MoE

They don't all look the same. You just chose a convenient time frame. If I wanted to be disingenuous I would zoom in on 2022 XMR/BTC, but I wont. Here is the long term trend of XMR/BTChttps://m.primal.net/HWaE.png


Yes, and Bitcoin has it's own utility. A long term SoV or digital asset. This utility is also bought and paid for when needed. It makes no sense for me to buy Bitcoin if I'm going to need to spend it in the short/medium term.
It is not an ideal MoE/currency.
That is a big reason why many in the third world don't use it and overwhelmingly prefer Tether USDT (Despite what some bitcoiners would like to believe).
Or why it grows increasingly rarer to see Freenet markets solely using Bitcoin to transact. Where privacy+cheap txs are paramount Monero is preferred. Some even exclusively.

All depends how often one gets haircuts and how far out one predicts needing them.
You can get discounts for buying anything in bulk.
It would be more expensive to pay for 1 voucher with Bitcoin every time you need one instead of buying many vouchers to hold and use in the short/medium term.

Most users are onboarding to all crypto thru depreciating fiat. That includes Bitcoin.
Any crypto can be swapped to and from Monero, that isn't an exclusive privilege of Bitcoin.


Check out trocador.app

Great exchange aggregator and they can probably find whatever pair you want to swap

Cakewallet also has it integrated


Or copy full-chain membership proofs*
Monero's next major upgrade that does away with ring signatures and puts its privacy about on par with Zcash. I'm not 100% certain about the performance differences compared to Zcash tech, but fairly sure Zcash is still more burdensome to process by a significant margin.

If you think many sidechains could scale, why not simply scale by using different crypto that already have these desirable properties? Each with their own trade offs/use cases (the same way Litecoin usage spikes when Bitcoin fees are high). The only difference between them would be that sidechains are pegged to Bitcoin price ostensibly. But for short/medium stretches of time that could also be a bad thing.

Building out atomic swaps, DEXes, and UX/UI around them will continue making this easier and cheaper to do

With the ongoing anti-sidechain sentiment from maxis I feel like it will be such a long shot getting sidechains onto Bitcoin...on top of also trying to capture existing network effects of every crypto that is copied. I'm all for more options, and wish you luck, but it just seems like swimming upstream from where I'm sitting.


I don't think so. Monero is probably the second biggest community on Nostr after Bitcoiners. They even have a nice sized bounty for a Nostr client going on right now

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/20-991m-nostr-client-for-monero


Interesting. This goes way over my head, but you would probably have a great conversation with @kayabaNerve (Luke Parker) on Twitter about this. Not sure if he's on Nostr


Ok fair, I ony bring it up because I thought you might appreciate the ephemeral aspects of MWEB since you like that aspect of LN


Gold has more annual inflation than Monero and the best SoV for several millennia, so that answer isn't very satisfying. Bitcoiners hyperfocus on supply and ignore demand. Without any demand you can have 1 Bitcoin and it is worth nothing if no one wants it.

Utility brings demand and absolute scarcity isn't necessary for value (I'm not saying Bitcoin is without value either). It's not all or nothing.


Ok, less important for transferring value in the short/medium term, but I won't argue

Would you be a proponent for Bitcoin implementing MWEB? It completely hides amounts and addresses, ephemeral like Lightning, and is truly scalable unlike Bitcoin, Lightning, or Monero


Traceability will be used asymmetrically against the powerless. Privacy strengthens security and censorship resistance for users. Can't really see any strong argument against privacy being the default.

Monero users can always be optionally transparent with their own individual transactions or even whole wallets if they wish to reveal them by simply providing viewkeys


I wonder what would happen if Bitcoin was in the same situation as Monero. Probably a 95%+ price tank because it is so dependent on speculative white market CEXes to maintain it's current price (AKA permissioned usage)

Meawhile Monero pretty much unaffected.

A foundation of unstoppable p2p trading, DEXes, and atomic swaps is what the ultimate goal should be anyways


You can argue for better store of value, but the whole problem is that BTC is a terrible means for moving value with any frequency. Expensive and lacks privacy. There are better options for this that don't give up sovereignty or introduce complexity.

XMR (or LTC using MWEB) completely hides amounts and addresses and is extremely cheap.
BCH using CashFusion to coinjoin is another good choice for cheap fees and decent obfuscation.
Nano has no privacy but is instant and feeless if that is all someone cares about.

Atomic swaps and DEXes will make this seamless

BTC can still be used as a long term SoV for those who speculate that to continue.


>"I am going to be doing deep dives into various shitcoins on an intelectual and fundamental level with the view of them being a solution to a Bitcoin problem and disproving that."

So you already have a conclusion and are just seeking for ways to confirm that. You're not open to being wrong.

Doesn't sound very intellectual


What "deanonymizing stuff"? Can you be more specific?

If there was an "unlimited XMR glitch" I guess we would know indirectly when it's price suddenly started plummeting towards zero.
That doesn't mean supply bugs don't/can't happen on BTC. And there is no real solution for supply bugs that have been exploited. Doesn't matter if it's XMR or BTC. There will always be some level of permanent damage. The larger BTC becomes, and the longer it takes to discover and stop, the more damage this will be.

Ultimately this is a fight against state controlled monetary supply, financial surveillance, and transactional censorship. Banks are just one of their proxies.
Why only XMR? You don't intelligence agencies are vs BTC?
BTC is a much larger target, traceable, and they even had a hand in creating it's PoW hash function and cryptographic curve. Blockstream has some very shady connections you might want to look into as well.

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/#you-cant-audit-the-monero-supply


Maybe...or maybe it's Bitcoin being trojan horsed 🤔


XMR is being delisted from Binance

BTC is getting a BlackRock ETF

Which of these seems like it's being co-opted?
What do you think they consider more of a threat?


Monero transaction:
~6% chance Alice sent $[?] to [?]

Bitcoin transaction:
Alice sent $X to Bob


There are no amounts or addresses visible on Monero.
Completely hidden.
(Confidential Amounts and Stealth Addresses)

Spenders are obfuscated
(Ring Signatures: 1 real, 15 decoys: the decoys are from real transactions that occurred on the chain)

IP address origin is hidden by default
(Dandelion++)

Monero's strong privacy is always on by default. Costs less than a cent to transact. Just press send.

https://localmonero.co/knowledge/monero-ringct
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/monero-stealth-addresses
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/monero-dandelion


Small versus what? Lightning? Liquid?
Monero $3 BILLION mcap
Lightning $200 million
Liquid $150 million

Monero likely sees more use than both of these combined. Definitely magnitudes higher sovereign use (Liquid is custodial, and ~95% of Lightning users are on custodial wallets)

Small spends and receives are just as easy (if not easier) to do and just as cheap on Monero (often less than a cent)

Liquid is a poor privacy alternative that never continued to improve. I don't know why it is so recommended for privacy...OP keep in mind:

Liquid: Hidden amounts
Monero: Hidden amounts, receivers, senders, IP address

Liquid has almost zero anon set as no one uses it. Most blocks have zero transactions.
https://liquid.network/blocks
(When you see only 1 transaction, that is just the coinbase for the block, not a transaction...)


Yea it's very difficult trace if not impossible when done correctly...but you gotta be careful when going BTC -> XMR -> BTC

-Allow some time to pass before the final swap back into BTC. Just say a day or two. (the longer the better)
-Use different exchanges for each swap and change your VPN server or Tor identity each time
-Break up your final swap into multiple chunks, and don't consolidate after ( i.e. Don't go 2.17 BTC -> XMR -> 2.17 BTC )

All this complexity is made worse by high fees going on with BTC, so it is pretty much impractical to do all the time.

That's why I just find it much simpler and cheaper to directly spend my XMR where I can

Fiat -> XMR -> spend XMR
or
Large chunk of BTC -> XMR -> spend XMR


Thanks for all the info and links I'll give them a deeper read when i have some time

"Do any lite clients randomly query full nodes for random transactions (ie, random regions of blockspace)? This would help user to “deny” that they actually own any of the coins they are asking about. In fact, the mere presence of this option may be sufficient to give considerable “deniability”. It needs only to be on by default"

This method for plausible deniability when using lite clients caught my eye. Really good idea. Don't know why this isn't enabled by default for all lite clients.


PSA: Remember to make sure your Bitcoin transactions are first approved of by the state. Don't do anything your government doesn't want you to do. That's why Bitcoin was created 👌
nostr:note1ksxw2cyfzp2yyag490skchms5s3tylmu3r4le6l3cprk6wtqsfmql3qcr4


I'll remember to make sure all my transactions follow the law next time I'm using a *checks notes* censorship resistant and permissionless digital currency...

the fuck


Not completely true.
Amounts and addresses are encrypted on Monero. Completely hidden using CT and Stealth Addresses.

Monero only uses obfuscation for sender privacy via ring sigs.
Full-chain membership proofs will pretty much make this a non issue.


I'm definitely open to at least exploring other privacy coins

From the little research I did way back when I first looked into it, these were the things that made me skeptical about it and pushed me away (maybe you can tell me if some are false, no longer true, or lack context):

-Trusted setup
-Centralized dPoW notary nodes
-Proprietary Komodo dPoW
-Dev tax
-Centralized and targetable entity (The Pirate Chain Project)
-And honestly, not as important, but the whole pirate stuff seemed like a gimmick

Basically, in my view it was smaller Zcash, just with the optional privacy issue fixed (big difference but still many similar problems remained)


-Lower inflation than gold; the hardest money for thousands of years (asymptotically approaches 0%)

-Predictable and stable inflation unlike fiat (market can price that in for any point in time you know how much Monero there will be) Easier to plan for the future. No one has unfair insider knowledge or cantillon effect advantage either)

-Every Monero requires expending energy to mine it (i.e. similar to mining gold) PoW just like Bitcoin. No one can arbitrarily print it out of thin air.


That's basically what Haveno is supposed to be (whenever it's completed...)

haveno.exchange


"All it is good for is the entire purpose of p2p digital cash"

Yea, all the Bitcoin DNM OGs are too busy making privacy mistakes with Bitcoin and getting busted by feds

Or being mistakenly imprisoned and prosecuted for it:
www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov


Yea I read recently DarkFi is merge mining with Monero
very cool

I can't comment on Pirate Chain with any confidence. I don't have deep knowledge of it.


There are coins out there with a max supply of 4

Does that make them better than Bitcoin?

lmao


Despite inflation, gold was the hardest money for several millenia.
Monero has less inflation than gold.

And no, no one can "make more" Monero out of thin air. You have to mine it. It's PoW just like Bitcoin.

Idk if you're just this ignorant about Monero or purposely trying to misinform others


I know how you feel 😤


Heres a good visual of privacy leaks vs tech used vs chain bloat

CT = Confidential Transactions
MW = MimbleWimble (Grin, LTC[MW])
MWCS = MimbleWimble + CoinSwap
RingCT = RingSigs + Confidential Transactions (Monero)
ZKSnark = (Zcash)https://m.primal.net/HVuP.png


The *privacy tech* that Zcash uses is better, and their researchers are great. But Zcash itself not so much...

Bad implementation of the tech and design decisions: optional privacy, not fungible, no default IP privacy, trusted setup, dev tax on mining, centralized corporate entity, transitioning to PoS, etc.

Bias source obviously, but much of this is true if you DYOR:
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#ZcashBlackpill


Ok. Just a hypothetical question to see your response. Similar to those who say the world is over populated, but are the last to volunteer themselves off the planet (not saying this is you)

Even honest people that you trust for business could unknowingly receive and give you fake bitcoin in the event of a supply bug exploit depending on the type and how long it goes unnoticed. Imagine newer users onboarding their fiat savings around the same time period, or even older users making a massive trade, only to have received fake Bitcoin.


Monerujo
https://github.com/m2049r/xmrwallet/releases

Stack Wallet
https://github.com/cypherstack/stack_wallet/releases

Cake Wallet
https://github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/releases

Anonero (only available over tor)
anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion

Mysu (only available over tor)
rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion


because you received fake bitcoin and the chain was rolled back*


Ok, but zSide doesn't even really exist yet. My point was Monero or other privacy coins with actual adoption aren't just waiting for it to catch up.

Being a sidechain of Bitcoin is an advantage in a certain way, but that doesn't mean it inherits on-chain network effects. zSide would have to gain it's own from scratch. Just look at Liquid or Lightning that have been around for years and still only a tiny fraction of on-chain adoption.

Fungibility isn't just about plausible deniability. It's about one unit being indistinguishable from another. The goal should be to make money as uniform as possible to reduce friction. Which wouldn't be possible thru sidechains. On-chain bitcoin would be easily distinguishable from the sidechain making it easier to value units differently or selectively censor. Bitcoin alone already has issues with this even without sidechains.

Didn't know about the possibility to blind merge mine on peg-out. Very interesting. Can you point me to somewhere I can read more about it? Thanks!


I mean if that meant a significant part of your stack, or even the entire thing, went poof


Monero privacy tech isn't static. Many improvements over time. Full-chain membership proofs is up next. Work is already funded and in progress.

Even with zSide it still doesn't address fungibility. Transactions would be trivial to distinguish from normal Bitcoin transactions.
Discreet and ubiquitous nature of RandomX mining wouldn't be carried over either.

There is a lot of privacy tech out there that is theoretically better. It's all just untested in the market or has no/poor implementations of it in crypto.


For the first paragraph, I'll take your word for it for now, but I'll read more into this later. Thanks.

Fair enough for the second paragraph. But like I've already acknowledged, you can't verify the Monero supply the way you're asking. My whole point is Bitcoin users can do this, but in practice *don't* do this. Almost no one exports the whole blockchain to excel to verify for themselves. Certainly no one does this every ten minutes. They just run a node and call it a day.

Not so sure that just because something is a critical vulnerability change would mean it isn't a hard fork especially if we're talking about rollbacks. Sounds like it would be a similar situation to the Ethereum vs Ethereum Classic split.
Sure maybe some customers would be honest and resend payment to merchants, but this is largely impractical to rely on and wishful thinking. Something tells me those millions of users who didn't do anything wrong and are now missing Bitcoin after a rollback would feel very differently.

Would you willingly sacrifice all your Bitcoin at the altar of 21 million? I don't think many would.


You're the first person who has ever actually given me a rebuttal to this specific bug, so thanks. I'll read this over.


So, what is the difference from a Monero user who also relies on a node to do this for them?

Monero users *can't* personally verify other transactions themselves. Bitcoiners can, but *don't* (infeasible to do every ten minutes + ~1 billion txs that already exist). ***In practice, both rely on their nodes to verify for them. They're both vulnerable to being unaware of implementation bugs in software.***
I would really like your answer to this as I've never had a good response from anyone.

I don't know why you assume this would be caught fast. It wouldn't even necessarily be detectable by nodes. There was already a supply inflation bug in 2018 that would've gone unnoticed by nodes. That was only avoided because of a single anon reporting it before it was exploited.

Ok, but option 1 means a hard fork (your desire for ossification can never truly happen if this is always on the table) and you just potentially fucked over millions of innocent Bitcoin users (especially if Bitcoin grows in adoption) who gave away real goods and services. You've now Thanos'd their payments. That would surely be  catastrophic for confidence in Bitcoin. Hence no good solution.


Also virtually zero Bitcoiners take advantage of it's transparent simple math to audit. They rely on their nodes to do it for them and pay no mind like any other crypto. Vulnerable to the same category of implementation risks when it comes down to the real world.

No has looked thru nearly ~1 billion transactions to make sure all inputs equal all outputs. Neither do they do they check every ten minutes.

Overwhelmingly likely that if anything is caught it will be way after the fact and there is no good solution for an already exploited supply inflation bug.

1) Hardfork out the fake bitcoin screwing over all those who gave away real stuff or services.

2) Keep the fake bitcoin and 21 million meme dies.

Seems like either one would be devastating. Am I wrong?


"in general this trade off eliminates the auditability of supply, and no matter what you monero fucks say, your coin does not guarantee supply, there has been multiple inflation bugs and you assholes think that doesn't matter"

I can give you that as long as you can acknowledge that a *public* ledger will never have real privacy (transactions and values aren't hidden) and have a weaker form of anonymity (psuedonymity) than monero. You'll never do that though because you think trade offs only exist for Monero.

There have also been inflation bugs in Bitcoins past. Even one that would've been undetectable by node runners that was prevented by a single honest anon.
bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice


Makes more sense for those who speculate that Bitcoin will still have better price performance long run, but are still Monero curious


Don't argue with us Monero reply guys. Argue with your own Lightning devs:
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy

No one uses lightning on Darknet Markets for good reason.
You probably know more than people with real skin in the game though.


All you do in our interactions is name call, spaz out, and throw red herrings

Can't handle the mildest of critiques. You're angrily blocking because others disagree with you. It's plain childish. Others like you are sealing your fate and growing mentally weak in your echo chambers

Fluffypony didn't create Monero and isnt even involved in the project anymore


Well of course

They do this exactly like Bitcoiners promote it's strong aspects, without mentioning the trade offs

There are intellectually dishonest users on both sides


It's very simple.

All things equal, Monero will always be more anonymous and private than Bitcoin based on how both protocols work. Bitcoin will also always be easier to mess up.

The cost, like you said will be auditability and scalability challenges. I can accept that trade off with Monero. But it seems like you can't accept the weaker anonymity/privacy trade off of Bitcoin.

Monero uses Dandelion++ even if you slip up and arent behind Tor. So Bitcoin will still strictly be worse off when it comes to accidentally leaking IP address.


All these things have trade offs...Lightning has so many unique issues because of it's complexity. Monero or even Bitcoin and other L1s don't have most of these problems:

Usability:
-you need to have sufficiently funded channels to be able to even receive or send to begin with (very inconvenient, unintuitive, and annoying)
-limited in the amount you can send without your transaction failing
-can't transact without both parties nodes being online at the time of transaction
-can be force closed onto the base chain against your will

Security:
-can be rugged if your node is offline
-illusion of final settlement (nothing is truly settled until on chain)
-ability to grief honest users with little to no cost
-recent unresolvable critical security issues discovered that cannot be fixed without base layer changes
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

Privacy:
-bad receiver privacy, IP is exposed by default, and hidden balances can be discovered by passive adversaries
-continuing centralization of massive routing nodes negates/reduces any help from onion routing. Majority of network relies on these for succesful routing and cheapest fees (incentives opposite to decentralization and privacy)

Any solution to these usually come down to custodians or trusting someone else's node. Worst of all - it isn't even a real solution for scaling bitcoin for all the downsides you take on:
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations

Btw everything I mentioned earlier was the weakest layer of Moneros privacy and only applies to senders: Ring Signatures. Just a form of obfuscation similar to coinjoins.

Amounts and addresses(receivers), on the other hand, are *completely hidden* from the blockchain using confidential transactions and stealth addresses. They are the real MVPs for Moneros privacy.

...but hey if one day lightning becomes more private, and magically resolves all these trade offs and bad sovereign UX issues, I will use it.


Like I said, I'm not trying to argue that Monero is necessarily money (even though some of it's specific properties are more ideal for money than Bitcoin i.e. fungibility). I don't think Bitcoin meets the definition of money right now either since it isn't the most common medium of exchange.

What would you consider todays money? USD? Yet, other things are still used to exchange value that aren't that.

Call Monero a currency, value transfer tool, medium of exchange, or something else. Don't really care what it's classified as. It's just more ideal for certain use cases that Bitcoin/Lightning are not as suited for.


Since you enjoy Giacomo you might like this 3 part critique of Monero.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PRKKlI-Jo


Agree that the crowd is important.

The mistake I then see Bitcoiners make is to imply all Bitcoin is their anon set. This is not true. Only a tiny fraction of Bitcoiners buy no-KYC and also coinjoin. This is optional, expensive, slow, and tedious. Introduces a lot of friction so no one does it which naturally reduces ur anon set.

You can essentially multiply every transaction that happens on Monero by 16 (1 true spend + 15 decoys that come from real transations that occured). All done by default. And your anon set grows over time with no involvement from you as your outputs are automatically chosen for other decoys.

Also consider that UTXOs don't exist on Monero, only TXOs. It is never known whether an output was spent. But that is known on Bitcoin. So every spend on Bitcoin reduces anon set of a coinjoin over time.

If you think Moneros anon set is small, it doesn't make sense to then say spend on lightning (tiny fraction of usage and liquidity than Monero)


You're right it's a trade off.

More transparency/auditability means less anonymity/privacy and vice versa all things equal.

The market is a continuous discovery process. Monero adoption on darknet markets is massively growing over time. White markets are less relevant for the whole point of crypto imo. I also don't think Monero needs to be #1 to be useful in it's niche. Can easily see both existing in the future in their own domains.
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle

https://void.cat/d/CAZv9yc7MS853wFNY3MsCv.webp


To me, Monero is just a tool for transferring value privately. Don't care as much for the technical debates about money (everyone seems to have their own definitions of money)

I think we agree. I can accept Monero will always be harder to audit than Bitcoin by their very natures (transparency vs privacy). I just think it's disingenuous to then turn around and say Bitcoin is just as private as Monero (not saying you're saying this)

Physical gold transactions are more private that either Bitcoin or Monero because they are ephemeral and don't involve broadcasting to the world. I hand you a piece of gold and no one else knows that transaction occured.

The downfall of gold imo had to do with its centralization in banks and physical nature. Both made it easier to confiscate and control.

I like Giacomo, and thought his hard/dark money concept was cool, but I don't think Bitcoin can be dark money, in the truest sense, because of it's transparent nature


Nothing to apologize for, friend 🤝
We are all passionate about freedom money 🗽

You have always been more open-minded than most even when we disagree. You have never gotten ugly or blocked. We probably agree on 99% of things


Where do we disagree? I'm agreeing with what you originally said.
The problem might be you think the irreconcilable nature only applies in one direction.

You're conflating anonymity and privacy. And a weaker form of anonymity at that - pseudonymity


Bitcoin can't be private/dark money - it's a public ledger. Everything that happens is visible. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

As mleku said, those two concepts things are irreconcilable. Trade offs to both.

The most you can hope for on Bitcoin is to obfuscate ownership, a form of anonymity (hidden identity), but that isn't privacy (hidden actions) and is not as strong as having both.


You would find out indirectly via market prices with Monero.
But nothing could be done about an exploited supply inflation bug in either Bitcoin or Monero.

The only two options:

1. Destroy the fake Bitcoin and throw users who gave away real products and services under the bus.

2. Leave the fake Bitcoin and break the 21 million meme

No good solution. Both would destroy confidence and screw over others.


Bitcoin is fees and surveillance go up coin


1. Ad popularis is a weak argument (Let's all use USD if that is the case. Wider network effect than Bitcoin.)

2. Sidechains don't make Bitcoin fungible. And the discreet nature and ubiquity of RandomX mining would not be transferred to a Bitcoin sidechain.