📢 Attention Garnet Users 📢

Consider pitching in to improve a few issues with Garnet and get it up to date with Amethyst. Maybe we'll get a couple nice features to go along with it.

Small amounts add up ✨

nostr:nevent1qqsph2e0a5u5jfstmg6d558ggtmg36fkqp0hy3a52qcp42g3vka9fes8lyunh


FYI for the off-chain enjoyers like nostr:npub1yxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96s8c399s.
You can already use Monero off-chain.

Just give someone a private key with Monero on it...no traces on chain 👍🤫

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/62e3befea6bd2e2a13e8976b9a14490c4665b876d21f67971f237f2bb9460aa9.webp


Not only is amount privacy on Monero quantum computer proof because of pedersen commitments...

TIL stealth addresses, for all practical purposes, are "zero knowledge" as they reveal no additional information about the receiver (all Monero users are equally likely to be the reciever) AND quantum computer proof if an adversary doesn't have access to the original Monero address

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/1a8066762602624a6a89bec530511f125d04f91304e0ab7a33c16015c9c9b741.webp


Ok, onion padding I'm assuming you're talking about BOLT12? I'll take your word for it. That's cool I didn't know that. Thanks for clarification.

Even if you aren't a routing node, how does the first node in a payment route not know your IP by default? I don't see how that is possible.

Yea, Dandelion doesn't encrypt traffic (didn't claim it did). You just can't be sure the transaction you are receiving originated from someone or if they were just another hop.
It's not perfect (neither is Tor), but Dandelion AND Tor is strictly better than just Tor.

Ok cool, looking forward to listening when it drops, thanks


1) No, I'm agreeing with you that it does publish transactions by default. Reread both charts carefully.

2) No, I specified obfuscation on the first chart. For second chart (FCMP++) it will encrypt the sender based off ZK accumulators. I never contested that lightning encrypts senders. Again, did you even read my charts lol?

3) This is where I might agree depending on what you mean. Are you claiming nodes can't see the change in their channel balances when payments are going through them? Or are you saying they are unsure of the original amount that was sent? (because the receiver *could* be using AMP atomic multi-path payments, etc)

"Not even the last node in the route knows who the recipient is or what amount the sender sent."

AFAIK this isn't true, but open to being wrong if you can show me. Even though sender and intermediary nodes don't know, the very last hop knows the recipient (of course).

4)
 >"...you write that lightning does not (red x) hide your ip address BY DEFAULT. It does..."

>"...you first have to set up port forwarding...then you have to make a CHOICE...Most people CHOOSE to use tor"

???

which one is it? Is it by default or not?

Monero uses dandelion to hide IP origin of a transaction from other nodes on the network by default - EVEN WITHOUT TOR

P.S. Is your conversation with Luke Parker on Seths pod still happening? I think both sides would learn a lot from it.


Hell yea 100% agree

Privacy is critical for this little experiment to succeed. That is one of the articles I read on my journey to get a better understanding of the state of privacy on lightning. I'm not partial to any particular tool. Whatever works well for the job I'll use. Right now that just happens to be Monero mostly. BOLT12 seems like a massive upgrade and solves many sovereign lightning privacy/UX issues. Once that gets more adoption I'm planning on giving it a chance. Looking forward to all the benefits that the FCMP++ upgrade brings to Monero too.

I could go on and on about the the cognitive dissonance of the holy blocksize limit and decentralization, but maybe another time. Nice chatting with you!

https://www.getmonero.org/2024/04/27/fcmps.html


A week, really? Seems like you know quite a bit already!

No problem. There is a lot to think about with lightning privacy. I'm sure I forget to mention stuff.
Not to shill, but personally that's why I love the simple, yet strong, privacy that Monero offers (for self-custodial/permissionless transactions even if one doesn't want to stack it). Privacy from both counter and third parties and no gymnastics required for it like lightning.

For ecash I recommend Minibits wallet for Nostr since they give you a static lightning address you can replace your WoS one with

https://github.com/minibits-cash/minibits_wallet


Confusing chart. The first one makes it seem like publishing all transactions by default is better with the ✔

Well if we are being uncharitable and cherry pick...

https://image.nostr.build/bd5b09f43e4c38c607362159206104738dd6a002afcb220f4ac445f76d8db97f.png
https://image.nostr.build/47719a7b5fba87e086352167c286bf0486cc9acb22d58c87e3d5ce1ac04f49b5.png


Definitely a lot of nuance and caveats... Lightning receiver privacy has always been bad. Amount privacy also not guaranteed because of probing like you said.

Self custody Lightning can be more/less private than on-chain depending "how" (with or without LSP) you use it and "who" you want to be private from (counter parties, third parties, or both)

i.e.
Using unannounced channels gives privacy from third parties (general public)...but not counter parties (the user youre transacting with) and ironically destroys plausible deniability.
Wrapped invoices with Zeus gives receiver privacy from counter parties, but not third parties (Zeus).

How most use lightning (with custodians and LSPs 80-90% according to nostr and wallet downloads) it offer similar privacy to a traditional bank. It gives privacy from the general public, but not the custodian/LSP.

Noticed you are using Wallet of Satoshi for Nostr. If you're using lightning custodially (so you've already accepted the risk of being rugged), and you are concerned about privacy, you should consider using Ecash for that since it is a strict improvement. Privacy from counter parties AND third parties.

https://zapalytics.com/


We don’t need private transactions
#privacy #monero

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/15/europe/ksenia-karelina-russia-america-sentence-treason-intl/index.html


Awww you're thinking about us ❤🤭


using Monero*


Fiat -> Monero:
Haveno Reto
Crypto ATMs

Earn/sell stuff -> Monero:
XMR Bazaar
Monero Market
Monezon
Monero Bounties

Fiat -> Bitcoin -> Monero:
Bisq
Robosats
Peach

https://haveno-reto.com/
https://coinatmradar.com


From my experience it seems like many misunderstand and think Nostr as intrinsically tied to Bitcoin itself somehow because of zaps (camp A: they don't understand that the protocol is agnostic to any crypto) or camp B: "it's a Bitcoin maxi echo chamber"

Kind of cant blame them for that last one honestly because it kind of is. That's more reason for them to come on over to change that though 😂


Oops forget Monezon, not anonymous or proxy


Someone already said anonshop but here are a few other options:
https://sovereignstack.tools/rerouter/

If you can find the item you want on Amazon:
https://monezon.com/


There is a new monerosigner (seedsigner fork) CCS that has been pretty active recently

But like others have already said right now your options are 1) Trezor, 2) an airgapped offline device (laptop or phone), 3) or a Tails USB stick with feather wallet

Here is a couple DIY guides for airgapped offline device signers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJqYzZyqyno
https://4rkal.com/posts/feathernero/


Soon hopefully 🙏

https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/%20MoneroSignerResurrection.html


let me know I'll throw some xmr at the bounty too


Bounty time?

https://bounties.monero.social/


Not only silent.link is substantially less expensive than competitors, it also features:
• Zero KYC / no reg
• No speed throttling
• Auto global roaming
• Data never expires
• Accounts never expire
• Works around state firewalls of China, UAE, Russia, etc https://image.nostr.build/a6361233e549c59bf7cc9e6ad11ff5721c593a659aebec61787fe0e8c7ae6371.jpg


And they accept Monero, the fungible, digital cash.

nostr:note1yekc8dxyxxp5jtgxpxyucx6gv7qz2kzk40yc3y92mn6z2usymzkqfn0fus


I don't agree. And neither do markets where privacy is critical, but that's okay. Appreciate the chat.


You say "nothing is really black and white", "tradeoffs", and "spectrums"

So if you're honest why can't you see that using Monero is just another tradeoff? It has it's own advantages/disadvantages over Ecash, Lightning, and on-chain Bitcoin too.


Haveno Reto. It's a newer Bisq fork that uses Monero instead of Bitcoin as the base trading pair.

Advantages are the trades are much cheaper and more private than Bisq and you can buy Monero directly with fiat instead of needing to buy Bitcoin and then swap to Monero.
Disadvantage, because it is newer, there are less offers than Bisq.

A lot of Monero users also like Trocador for quick and easy swaps. It's an aggregator of "instant" crypto swappers.

Check out the "monero guide" link on my profile for more options

https://haveno-reto.com/
https://trocador.app


Hello peeppzz! New to this community. I am getting my head around bisq and about to read robostats. Are these the only platform I can egage and trade monero?


Ok, but ecash is custodial...you're just making my point for me about having to choose between either good UX, or sovereign LN, but not both. Moving that $50 to Zeus is less private than ecash though lol.

Yep I've been keeping my eye on bolt12. Definitely a big privacy improvement for LN. There was too much mania over lightning in the early days that fell short of the hype, so i'll reserve my judgement until bolt12 is more widely used and I can play around with it and see it work in the wild.

We'll see


I'm just saying doing all of these things in the first place is already a big jump for most.

The more difficult you make it...the less users will have the the will or capability to use it sovereignly.

P2P digital cash just has to work with as little friction as possible.

Phoenix is not private, not censorship resistant, and requires what amounts to a "minimum fee" to even start. Monero is private, censorship resistant, and can start without first needing to pay to open a channel.


Zeus is cool. Probably the best lightning wallet atm. I just think self-custodial LN in general has a lot of pain points especially new users. To even begin using it the user has to commit to 100,000+ sats first. And because of the painful UX of LN, most will use Zeus LSP which gives privacy to the receivers from the general public but not the LSP.

Maybe that is good enough for a lot of users, but that is the same privacy modern banks already offer.

Monero offers privacy from ALL third parties and doesn't require putting down money to get started in the first place


We love Nostr as a publishing platform that offers unparalleled censorship resistance. But NIP44 does NOT provide most of the important qualities of e2e encryption:

- break-in recovery.
- repudiation (deniability).
- visibility of connection graph to observers.
- fixed message sizes (although it can be provided by the specific app)
- resistance to Shore algorithm (PQ encryption).

It's unclear whether it provides forward secrecy, but the spec implies that it does not - I might be wrong here.

We wrote this post about the qualities of e2e encryption and why they are important: https://simplex.chat/blog/20240314-simplex-chat-v5-6-quantum-resistance-signal-double-ratchet-algorithm.html


Why is that not an argument? The reason lightning is disproportionately used with custodians (~80-90% custodial users) is because of its shitty UX.

The better the UX is for self-custody and permissionless txs, the more users will use it that way.

https://zapalytics.com/


You're doing unnecessary additional swaps.

You're assuming that you would necessarily go back to Bitcoin after swapping to Monero.
Why would you swap back when you can just have a small stash of Monero you keep for spending directly in the short-medium term?

Or if you're receiving Monero as payments, it is just one swap away from hodling as Bitcoin. No need for lightning privacy gymnastics or trusting custodians.


Appreciate the honesty and your full thoughts.
If that's what you believe will happen, fair enough

I don't know the future. Either Monero is still around as a useful tool because Bitcoin still hasn't quite nailed it's privacy options...

...OR Bitcoiners finally shut us Monero reply guys up by making it obsolete with some layer that does the same thing (or better)

It's a win/win for me


Looks like they already have an alpha release being worked on for the bounty
http://github.com/KewbitXMR/haveno-plus/

"Building an Open-Source Android App for Haveno Dex"

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/126/21-112m-building-an-open-source-android-app-for-haveno-dex


I'm pointing out "other shitcoins are basically closed ecosystems" is factually wrong - shitcoin or not. You seem to agree with me based on that red herring of a question.


Who likes #XMR?


This is the same vibe as mainstream media saying that bitcoiners are tax cheating psycopaths. For someone on team Bitcoin, this is peak cringe


Because with Lightning you either sacrifice good UX or permissionless/self-custodial transactions for some privacy (arguably worse in several respects i.e. receiver and network privacy).
I think the ~80-90% custodial lightning users on Nostr and custodial wallet download ratios speaks to the bad UX it has.
You don't have to make that choice with Monero (althought it has other ones of course)
Monero is more straightforward and actually focused on strong privacy by default. Lightning is focused on cheap and fast retail payments with privacy as an afterthought.

It's also not perfectly comparable since Lightning is a layer and Monero is a crypto like Bitcoin. Monero can have layers with the next major update that will be a better comparison. An encrypted base with an ephemeral layer is probably ideal for privacy overall.

https://zapalytics.com/


Tradeoffs are only bad in the context of a goal

Want permissionless private transactions, good UX, all without paying an arm and leg? Bitcoin tradeoffs are bad

Moneros tradeoffs make it a better p2p digital cash


"Monero is a niche use case crypto token..."
All of crypto is niche tbh including Bitcoin. If this is a popularity contest then use fiat.

"Bitcoin is an easily auditable, fixed supply monetary system that is grounded in physical reality and gives anyone in the world the ability to save and truly own their wealth outside of their local fiat currencies"
Not unique to Bitcoin. Can say all this for just about any popular PoW chain 🤦♂

"Bitcoin is an easily auditable..."
The same reason why its sucks for privacy


It's FOSS and permissionless just like Bitcoin

tf are you talking about


Yes, I think that is one of the few ways you can protect from DoS attacks on Tor. I'm assuming it's related to:

https://blog.torproject.org/introducing-proof-of-work-defense-for-onion-services/


New release for Haveno Reto

https://github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases/tag/v1.0.10


If you'd bought #bitcoin (#BTC) in 2009, you'd still be on a surveillance chain right now—15 years later.


Finally figured out how to get #monero from #Robosats p2p! Apparently, you just have to type it in! I'm running it from my #umbrel pi as an independent client but you can access it through #tor as well: http://robosats6tkf3eva7x2voqso3a5wcorsnw34jveyxfqi2fu7oyheasid.onion/

https://image.nostr.build/df5ce21fd3cd6e615dabb5f2539a1ee5d43762e3e137ab1ff0e6b7f13c3f43ed.jpg


monero


3 days in Berlin and #Monero is everywhere. Some Berliners like privacy.

Meanwhile for the masses in the UK, it's trending to zero.
https://m.primal.net/JvnO.jpg


# I'm leaving Foundation and joining Cake Wallet

It's time for a new chapter in my journey building freedom tech, and I'm thrilled to announce that I'll be jumping in to help Vik run Cake as VP of Operations starting in September.

## Why Cake?

I've known Vik for many years in the space, and have been watching from the sidelines as he's worked hard to bring together an amazing team to build out a wallet that prioritizes ease-of-use and powerful privacy no matter what cryptocurrency people prefer. That all started with being the first Monero wallet on iOS, and has rapidly grown to being a cross-platform, multi-cryptocurrency wallet used by hundreds of thousands of people around the world.

The best part? Cake Wallet has been paving the way in the privacy space for many years, including the latest push to be the first mobile wallet to include Silent Payments for Bitcoin and MWEB for Litecoin. My vision for Cake is to carry this privacy-first vision even further, continuing to push the envelope and let users access powerful privacy features with an intuitive, beautiful user experience that makes privacy easy.

The first three objectives I have will be improving and expanding Silent Payments support (especially improving the sync experience!), building out an amazing (and privacy-preserving) Lightning experience, and fine-tuning and improving the existing Cake Wallet that you all know and love across the board.

I can't wait to step into this larger role, especially with friends that I've already gotten the chance to meet and get to know over the years. I'm also thrilled to be able to dedicate a bit more time to expanding access and ease-of-use for Monero, especially in the wake of the takedown of Samourai Wallet and the broad attacks against Bitcoin privacy.

Monero is a more important tool than ever, and Cake has been a key part of making Monero more useful over the years.

## Grateful for Foundation

I have nothing but amazing things to say about Foundation and the incredible people I've gotten to work with so closely over the past two years. We've gotten the chance to build the best Bitcoin hardware wallet out there in Passport, and turn Envoy from a simple companion app for Passport to a powerful standalone mobile wallet with the best coin control in the space.

I especially wanted to shout out Zach Herbert and @qna, as they have been close friends and allies, giving me the chance to get started in the space and grow into what became a much larger role than originally planned with Foundation. Zach has gone above and beyond to empower me over the past two years, and his tireless efforts to drive Foundation forward and ensure we ship the best possible products has been inspiring.

@qna is the reason I'm even in Bitcoin in the first place, and was the key voice of reason that helped me understand the how and why of privacy in Bitcoin, as well as the power (and necessity) of going no-KYC-only. We've built a great friendship over the past two years and I'm honored to be able to have learned so much from him.

This has to be the most bittersweet move of my life, but I'm thrilled with the new prospects at Cake and know that those taking over in my place at Foundation are going to bring a unique approach to help them take the next step forward as well.

Now let's get back to building 🫡

P.S. - Keep an eye out, Cake and Foundation will be working closely together in the near future 👀


#monero #privacy #tor
nostr:npub1f6ugxyxkknket3kkdgu4k0fu74vmshawermkj8d06sz6jts9t4kslazcka

https://image.nostr.build/1be57cec74d8efab2c3a3f0061824e5ba979803063b5be9ed8fd502bc1bc389b.jpg


I #Garnet now, and you should too.

#nostr #monero #amethyst #btc #bitcoin #zap #xmr

https://github.com/retrnull/garnet/releases/tag/v0.3.0


That just makes the price and volume much easier to manipulate by these handful of centralized exchanges and frontrun normal users before their government takes it's turn in censoring/stealing/surveilling them.

Users can do what they want. I'm just pointing out it makes zero sense to use Bitcoin that way. It's the worst of Bitcoin and the worst of fiat with none of the benefits of either.

Has nothing to do with being puritan (ironically a bitcoin maxi is calling others puritans, which I am not) it's about larping like these centralized, custodial, white market transactions are Bitcoin or have any relevance to it's core value prop.

Monero is already plenty adopted on the only markets that matter for Bitcoins value prop


Do you happen to have Amethyst on your phone? They both can't be installed at the same time. Should be fixed next update


Why would you assume that when it's delisted from vast majority of central exchanges? It was just delisted from Binance earlier this year the largest exchange on the planet by far


My point is white market transactions mean jack shit for Bitcoins value prop so you can throw that permissioned volume in the garbage.

Yes, fiat is much better if you're going to make a transaction that follows all the rules anyway.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


Monero is the only one, really.


#Monero #Memes #XMR
https://image.nostr.build/225d6ad02fd2cc35306a7e4e1ee8116e5961a5cb8d96c2bc3e81702174901ca1.jpg


Didn't one of you guys already say the same thing about darknet markets?

I wouldn't be so sure, Nostradamus

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/1f90427dc509f688d750d255d92b72f31f9bd43b8d097617e5418697e49f98a7.webp

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/78ada4b1d25c1434aea6d6674655c493dc5f106d1d6e3bc487a04292d7e1667f.webp

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/29751b4dc7834f41ea1f309b1f3086ce57166cc3944547744417e606510e59f8.webp
https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/6738c99c554a656adb4a85a6be30b2f92db7ec7940f83cc9a9c1172889093e05.webp


You're the one that just dodged my previous question lmao

You're just proving my point with this centralized ledger white market price/volume chart (AKA permissioned) where the majority of Bitcoin economic activity resides (defeating the whole point of Bitcoin)

Aside from ideological fanatics, there is no reason to use Bitcoin for a transaction, if you're going to adhere to the rules, when fiat exists and already does that way better. It's far more accepted too.


NGU on the surveillance chain 🥳

https://image.nostr.build/9f76e4c0f830601c97c152d2b5336ab3a18630c758d0a4ae48b454c08199af30.jpg


By default it shouldn't do that, but users can display that if they choose too, maybe those users tipping you chose to turn that option on?


What layers does Bitcoin have besides lightning that have any real adoption? Even if we include the 85% custodial users on lightning it is still meager.

I think believing the world is going to adopt Bitcoin (or any crypto) is an idealistic world. Especially on government controlled white markets.


The $100 trillion global cash market disagrees


#Monero #Meme
https://image.nostr.build/d69d423a8819a0acb2ba3599eed05b95de763c742ad6595dcca66996802c1a83.jpg


"Haveno adds Tor PoW defense support for seed nodes"

https://monero.observer/haveno-v1.0.10-released-support-tor-pow-defense/


![Monero logo](https://www.getmonero.org/img/monero-logo.png)

*Key:*

- 💬 = More info
- `⚠` = Warning!
- 🧅 = Tor is built-in the software by default, optional, or has an onion site if clickable

# ⭐"WHAT IS MONERO?"

- [What is Monero (XMR)?](https://www.getmonero.org/get-started/what-is-monero/)

# ⭐"WHY USE MONERO?"

If you want very inexpensive digital transactions with:

- The untraceability and privacy of cash
- The decentralized digital nature of Bitcoin
- The control over your money that both bring

# ⭐ "HOW DO I GET MONERO?"

*Payment methods:*
- 💵 = Cash
- 💳 = Digital Fiat (click to see fiat payment methods, or visit website to see)
- 🪙 = Bitcoin
- 💿 = Altcoins (click to see supported altcoins, or visit website to see)
- ⚡ = Lightning Network

## 1. CRYPTO ATMs, NO-KYC 🏧
*Cash for crypto in person*

💬 Tip #1: Can't find Monero near you? Any major crypto will work. Ideally one with low transaction fees i.e. LTC, BCH, DOGE. Just swap to Monero later.

💬 Tip #2: Don't give out your real phone number, email, or name. Simple phone number and email verification is common. If required, use a temp SMS verification website. [Phantom Phone](https://phantomphone.app/) has a free one available. For email use a temp email service. [Guerrilla Mail](https://www.guerrillamail.com/) is free. Alternatively, you can create an email specifically for doing this, or at least use an email alias service like SimpleLogin or Addy.io

- [Crypto ATM Finder](https://coinatmradar.com/) - (💵) 💬 Choose an ATM, click "view details", scroll down and read "Limits and verifications". Find one that requires little to no information. Pay with cash.

## 2. P2P MARKETS, NO-KYC 🤝
*Trustless and trust-minimized ways to buy Monero from other users*

💬 Tip: For the cheapest price, make your own offer and wait for someone to take it

### Decentralized Platforms

- [Haveno Reto](https://haveno-reto.com/) 🧅 - (💵[💳](https://haveno.exchange/faq/#what-currencies-will-be-listed)🪙[💿](https://haveno.exchange/faq/#what-currencies-will-be-listed))
- [Bisq](https://bisq.network) 🧅 - (💵[💳](https://bisq.wiki/Payment_methods#Fiat_payment_methods)🪙[💿](https://bisq.markets/markets))
- [RoboSats](https://dex.robosats.com/) [🧅](http://robosats6tkf3eva7x2voqso3a5wcorsnw34jveyxfqi2fu7oyheasid.onion/) - ([💳](https://learn.robosats.com/docs/payment-methods/)🪙💿⚡)
- Serai ***[TBA - active](https://serai.exchange/) - (🪙💿)

### Atomic Swaps

- [UnstoppableSwap](https://unstoppableswap.net/) 🧅 - (🪙)
- [BasicSwapDEX](https://basicswapdex.com/) [🧅](http://basicswapof6d23whqtxpdpkkr7uoafivwl22m37pypnw2deisxkdaid.onion/) - (🪙[💿](https://basicswapdex.com/markets))
- [BCH-XMR](https://wc2-web-examples.vercel.app/) ***[github](https://github.com/PHCitizen/bch-xmr-swap) - (💿)
- ETH-XMR ***[TBA - active](https://github.com/AthanorLabs/atomic-swap) - (💿)

### Centralized Platforms

- [HodlHodl](https://HodlHodl.com) - ([💵](https://hodlhodl.com/pages/faq#what_payment_methods_are_available_at_exchange)💳🪙💿⚡)

### Exchange Proxy

*If someone you know already buys crypto off major exchanges, doesn't care about KYC, and doesn't plan on stopping...ask if they will be your crypto dealer! You get no-KYC crypto, they get a small premium for doing it (presumably). Win-win.*
- Someone you know - (💵💳🪙💿⚡)

### Sell Stuff & Work For It

- [Monero Market](https://moneromarket.io/)
- [XmrBazaar](https://xmrbazaar.com/)
- [Anarkio Listings](https://anarkio.codeberg.page/markets/)
- [Monero Market - Telegram](https://t.me/moneromarket)
- [Monero Jobs - Telegram](https://t.me/MoneroJobs)
- [Monero Bounties](https://bounties.monero.social/)

## 3. "INSTANT" SWAPPERS, NO-KYC 🔁
`⚠ Everything in this section is custodial for the duration of the swap`
*Quick, cheap, and easy crypto swaps*

💬 Tip #1: Use a VPN to bypass any geo-blocking

💬 Tip #2: Use [KYCNOTME](https://kycnot.me/?t=exchange&q=&xmr=on) [🧅](http://kycnotmezdiftahfmc34pqbpicxlnx3jbf5p7jypge7gdvduu7i6qjqd.onion/) to help you determine the most reputable exchanges and minimize risk

### Aggregators

- [Trocador](https://trocador.app/) [🧅](http://trocadorfyhlu27aefre5u7zri66gudtzdyelymftvr4yjwcxhfaqsid.onion/) 💬 Trades 100% insured depending on exchange used and amount traded
- [OrangeFren](https://orangefren.com/) [🧅](http://rnwis2whetqcj4oknksnc5l24jbh33nflunifff3xtjjonnoxu3ld6id.onion/)
- [Intercambio](https://intercambio.app/) [🧅](http://ybnc7t4gnaixrvawshppx6nauxrvyxf4nmppfk74ztqgd46q3ifjl4id.onion/)
- [Majestic Bank](https://majesticbank.ru/) [🧅](http://majestictfvnfjgo5hqvmuzynak4kjl5tjs3j5zdabawe6n2aaebldad.onion)
- [WizardSwap](https://www.wizardswap.io/) [🧅](http://wizardswgtu2ovor7r2esg3cxdpt7tv4nrugi32lldv53zmtonbz6sid.onion/)

### Individual Swappers

- [Exch](https://exch.cx/) [🧅](https://hszyoqwrcp7cxlxnqmovp6vjvmnwj33g4wviuxqzq47emieaxjaperyd.onion/)
- [Xchange](https://xchange.me)
- [Coin Swap](https://coinswap.click/)
- [BitcoinVN](https://bitcoinvn.io/)
- [Infinity Exchanger](http://exchanger.2hjngt3i7i63tvs7a6ludfb7di4bcfzjmnp5i3nzzawykxhekah5k7yd.onion/) 💬 Tor-only
- [ShadowStrike](http://shadowg4szntvrqvuw52tajyiuiwtz3r54tcjlaf62jcxcctzi3lf7yd.onion) 💬 Tor only, XMR --> Lightning only

## 4. CENTRAL EXCHANGES, NO-KYC 🏛
`⚠ Everything in this section is custodial for the duration of the swap`
*Like any centralized exchange, but no identity verification required*

- [TradeOgre](https://tradeogre.com/)

## 5. MINE, NO-KYC ⛏
*Trade your electricity for Monero. Mine on practically anything with a CPU.*

- [Gupax](https://gupax.io/) 💬 Beginner-friendly P2Pool miner
- [Nodo](https://moneronodo.com/) 💬 Plug-and-play, dedicated, pre-built node & miner
- [Monero CLI/GUI](https://www.getmonero.org/downloads/) 💬 Old faithful
- [P2pool](https://github.com/SChernykh/p2pool)
- [XMRig](https://github.com/xmrig/xmrig)
- [MoneroSuite](https://monerosuite.org/)

## 6. LAST RESORT ⚠
`⚠ Everything in this section is custodial until you withdraw`

*Acceptable if nothing above is possible for you, but not recommended because it requires [KYC](https://kycnot.me/about). Take possesion as soon as possible. Withdraw to your own wallet first before spending!*

- [Kraken](https://www.kraken.com/)
- Any other centralized exchange that offers Monero (if your exchange doesn't offer Monero, buy any major crypto and swap it to Monero using one of the many methods above)

# ⭐"HOW DO I USE MONERO?"

*Platforms:*
- 🍎 = iOS
- 🤖 = Android
- 🪟 = Windows
- 🍏 = MacOS
- 🐧 = Linux
- 🌐 = Web Wallet

## 1. Software Wallets
*open-source, self-custodial*
- [Cake Wallet](https://cakewallet.com/) - 🍎🤖🪟🍏🐧
- [Monerujo](https://www.monerujo.io/) - 🤖
- [Stack Wallet](https://stackwallet.com/) - 🍎🤖🪟🍏🐧
- [Feather Wallet](https://featherwallet.org/) - 🪟🍏🐧
- [Monero CLI/GUI](https://www.getmonero.org/downloads/) - 🪟🍏🐧
- [Anonero](http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/) - 🤖 💬 Tor only
- [Mysu](http://rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion/) - 🤖 💬 Tor only
- [Monujo](https://monujo.cash/) - 🌐

`⚠ The wallets below can see incoming transactions. They share your viewkey with their remote servers. You have increased convenience (no sync times) at the expense of reduced privacy`
*open-source, self-custodial, light wallets*

- [Edge](https://edge.app/) - 🍎🤖
- [Rino](https://app.rino.io) - 🌐 💬 Mutli-sig wallet
- [MyMonero](https://mymonero.com/) - 🤖🪟🍏🐧🌐
- [Coin Wallet](https://coin.space/) - 🍎🤖🪟🍏🐧🌐

`⚠ I recommend avoiding any closed source wallets including the ones below if possible`
*fully/partially closed source or deprecated*

- Exodus
- Guarda

## 2. Hardware Wallets & Cold Storage
- [Trezor Safe 3](https://trezor.io/trezor-safe-3) 💬 Open-source [firmware](https://github.com/trezor/trezor-firmware) & [software](https://github.com/trezor/trezor-suite)
- [Trezor Model T](https://trezor.io/trezor-model-t) 💬 Open-source [firmware](https://github.com/trezor/trezor-firmware) & [software](https://github.com/trezor/trezor-suite)
- [Anonero DIY hardware wallet](http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/) - [Guide](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJqYzZyqyno) 💬 Tor only
- [Ultimate Monero ColdStorage Guide (Feather X Anonero)](https://4rkal.eu.org/posts/feathernero/)
- Foundation Passport ***[TBA - active](https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero)
- [MoneroSigner hardware](https://xmrstreet.store/) or [build your own](https://seedsigner.com/hardware/) - both meant to be installed with MoneroSigner software ***[TBA - active](https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/%20MoneroSignerResurrection.html)

## 3. E-commerce & Merchant Payment Gateways
- [Trocador - Payment Generator](https://trocador.app/en/anonpay/)
- [Accepting Monero via BTCPay Server](https://btcpayserver.org/) - [Guide](https://sethforprivacy.com/guides/accepting-monero-via-btcpay-server/)
- [WooCommerce](https://wordpress.org/plugins/woocommerce/) - use [Monerowp - Plugin](https://github.com/monero-integrations/monerowp) or [Cryptocurrency Payment Gateway Plugin](https://wordpress.org/plugins/cryptocurrency-payment-gateway/#description)
- [MoneroPay](https://github.com/moneropay/moneropay)

## 4. Point of Sale
- [Bitrequest](https://www.bitrequest.io/)
- [Hotshop](https://hotshop.onrender.com/#/) `⚠ Alpha software: Use with caution`

# ⭐"WHERE CAN I SPEND MONERO?"

### Directories
- [Monerica](https://monerica.com/) 💬 Extensive list
- [Cryptwerk](https://cryptwerk.com/pay-with/xmr/)

*Very little to no info required to purchase almost everything below*

### P2P Markets
- [Monero Market](https://moneromarket.io/) 💬 Popular market
- [XmrBazaar](https://xmrbazaar.com/) 💬 Newer market
- [Monero Market - Telegram](https://t.me/moneromarket)
- [Monero Jobs - Telegram](https://t.me/MoneroJobs)
- [Anarkio Listings](https://anarkio.codeberg.page/markets/)

### Gift Cards & Virtual Debit Cards
- [Coincards](https://coincards.com/us/) - [Prepaid debit cards](https://coincards.com/us/product-tag/prepaid-credit-card/)
- [CakePay](https://buy.cakepay.com/)
- [Coinsbee](https://www.coinsbee.com/)
- [Stealths](https://stealths.net/)
- [Trocador prepaid debit cards](https://trocador.app/en/prepaidcards/)

### Proxy Purchase & Package Forwarding
- [Sovereign Stack Rerouter](https://sovereignstack.tools/rerouter/)
- [AnonShop](https://anonshop.app/) 💬 The buyer won't know your name or address, and Amazon won't know you purchased with Monero
- [Monezon](https://monezon.com/) 💬 The buyer won't know your name or address, and Amazon won't know you purchased with Monero
- [ShopInBit](https://shopinbit.com)
- [DigitalGoods](https://digitalgoods.proxysto.re/en)
- [PrivacyPost](https://privacypost.io/ecommerce/index.html)

### VPNs
- [Mullvad](https://mullvad.net/en) [🧅](http://o54hon2e2vj6c7m3aqqu6uyece65by3vgoxxhlqlsvkmacw6a7m7kiad.onion/)
- [IVPN](https://www.ivpn.net/)
- [SafingIO - Portmaster](https://safing.io/)
- [Njalla VPN](https://njal.la/vpn/)

### VPS, Domains, Webhosting
- [Njalla](https://njal.la/)
- [Kyun](https://kyun.host/)
- [Cockbox](https://cockbox.org/)
- [1984](https://1984.hosting/)
- [Mynymbox](https://mynymbox.xyz)
- [Cockbox](https://cockbox.org/)

### Email & Email Aliases
- [Tuta](https://tuta.com/support/#monero) - [Official Reseller](https://digitalgoods.proxysto.re/en)
- [SimpleLogin](https://simplelogin.io/)
- [Addy](https://addy.io/)

### Burner Phone Numbers, SMS verification, and eSims
- [Silent Link](https://silent.link/) - 💬 [How it works](https://silent.link/faq#HowsilentlinkCanImproveMySecurity)
- [SMSPool](https://www.smspool.net/)
- [TextVerified](https://www.textverified.com/)
- [JuicySMS](https://juicysms.com/)
- [Phantom Phone](https://phantomphone.app/)
- [JMP](https://jmp.chat/)
- [MoneroSMS](https://monerosms.com/#)

### Postage
- [Cryptostamps](https://cryptostamps.biz/) [🧅](http://lgh3eosuqrrtvwx3s4nurujcqrm53ba5vqsbim5k5ntdpo33qkl7buyd.onion/)
- [Cryptopostage](https://cryptopostage.info/) [🧅](http://j4yryxwbt7ibqcittnhyv7w4sfy4qmtzjvxew3373tyn3x7bgnmgspid.onion/)

### Food
- [Coffee - Gratuitas](https://gratuitas.org/)
- [Maple Syrup - MapleTrade](https://njump.me/npub172mu27r5yny0nnmvgjqwhx055dmsesrrx7j0p5d3pxagfx6xgxfsv75p3q) - 💬 Seasonal
- [Pemmican bars - AUPA](https://eataupa.com/)

### Music
- [Crypt0-Bear](https://music.makecryptoscaryagain.com) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/c/crypt0Bear)
- [Ven](https://www.venmusica.com/) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@ven11235)

### Medicinal & Pharmaceutical
- [CBDC Products - Planta](https://cbdmiamishop.com/home/)

### Merch
- [MoneroMerch](https://moneromerch.com/)
- [MoneroSupplies](https://monerosupplies.com/)

### Tech & Hardware
- [Buskill](https://www.buskill.in/product/buskill-cable/)

### Ammunition & Defensive Products
- [Crypto Armory](https://www.crypto-armory.com/)

### Gold & Silver
- [Suisse Gold](https://www.suissegold.eu/en/)

### Crypto Loans
- [CoinRabbit](https://coinrabbit.io/) 💬 Only phone number or e-mail is required

### IT Services
- [Merceneros](https://merceneros.com/)

### Accounting Services & Consulting
- [Bear Bookkeeping & Tax, LLC](https://www.bearbookkeepingtax.com/)

### Hotels, Flights, Travel
- [Travala](https://www.travala.com/)

### PC games
- [Keys4Coins](https://www.keys4coins.com/)

### Gambling
- [Monero Vegas](https://monero.vegas/) 💬 [Provably fair](https://monero.vegas/fairness)

### Donations
**FOSS projects**
- [Tor](https://donate.torproject.org/cryptocurrency/)
- [SimpleX Chat](https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplex-chat#help-us-with-donations)
- [GrapheneOS](https://grapheneos.org/donate#monero)
- [CalyxOS](https://members.calyxinstitute.org/donate)
- [DivestOS](https://divested.dev/pages/donate)
- [Tails](https://tails.net/donate/)
- [Whonix](https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Donate)
- [Qubes](https://www.qubes-os.org/donate/#-monero-xmr)
- [Linux Mint](https://linuxmint.com/donors.php)
- [VLC Player](https://www.videolan.org/contribute.html)
- [Organic Maps](https://organicmaps.app/donate/)
- [Cryptomator](https://cryptomator.org/donate/#crypto)
- [Veracrypt](https://www.veracrypt.fr/en/Donation.html)
- [KeePassDX](https://www.keepassdx.com/#donation)
- [qBittorrent](https://www.qbittorrent.org/donate)
- [Invidious](https://invidious.io/donate/)
- [Freetube](https://github.com/FreeTubeApp/FreeTube?tab=readme-ov-file#donate)
- [Piped](https://github.com/TeamPiped/Piped?tab=readme-ov-file#donations)
- [Foss Hub](https://www.fosshub.com/crypto.html)
- [Anna's Archive](https://annas-archive.org/donate) - 💬 Sci-Hub and LibGen mirror
- [Fossify](https://github.com/FossifyOrg)
- [Obtainium](https://github.com/ImranR98) 💬 Link on left side of profile
- [FitGirl Repacks](https://fitgirl-repacks.site/donations/)
- [Reticulum Network](https://reticulum.network/donate.html)
- [Privacy.sexy](https://undergroundwires.dev/donate/)

**Organizations**
- [Free Ross](https://freeross.org/donate/)
- [AntiWar](https://www.antiwar.com/donate/)
- [Mises Institute](https://mises.org/giving/crypto-venmo-and-paypal-gifts)
- [WikiLeaks](https://shop.wikileaks.org/donate#db9)

### Bounties and Crowdfunding
- [Monero Bounties](https://bounties.monero.social/)
- [Magic Monero Fund](https://monerofund.org/)
- [Monero Community Crowdfunding System (CCS)](https://ccs.getmonero.org/)

### Fundraising
- [Kuno](https://kuno.anne.media/)

# ⭐"WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE?"

## Educational Resources

- [About Monero](https://www.getmonero.org/resources/about/)
- [Moneropedia](https://www.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia)
- [LocalMonero Knowledge](https://localmonero.co/knowledge)
- ["Dispelling Monero FUD" -sethforprivacy](https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/)
- [Monero General Info-Dump](https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/)
- [Libereco](https://libereco.xyz/resources/)

## News & Articles

- [Monero Observer](https://monero.observer/)
- [The Monero Moon](https://www.themoneromoon.com)
- [The Monero Standard](https://localmonero.co/the-monero-standard)
- [Revuo](https://revuo-xmr.com/)
- [Monero Blog](https://www.getmonero.org/blog/)
- [The Monero Dance](https://themonero.dance/)
- [Simplified Privacy](https://simplifiedprivacy.com/)

## Podcasts & Media

*[Podcasting 2.0 - Podcast Index](https://podcastindex.org/)*

- [Monero Talk](https://www.monerotalk.live/episodes) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@MoneroTalk/videos)
- [AlexAnarcho](https://alexanarcho.live/podcast/tags/season-2)
- [Outlaw Crypto Podcast](https://podcast.paranoiamachinery.com/@paranoia_machinery)
- Monero Magazine - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@moneromagazine/videos)
- [The Monero Matteo Podcast](https://odysee.com/@MoneroMatteo:b) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@moneromatteo6845/videos)
- MoneroCommunityWorkgroup - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@MoneroCommunityWorkgroup/videos)

Monero adjacent (Topic of Monero, crypto, and privacy come up regularly):
- [Opt Out](https://optoutpod.com/) w/ Seth For Privacy - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@OptOutPodcast/videos)
- [The Watchman Privacy Podcast](https://watchmanprivacy.com/podcast/) w/ Gabriel Custodiet - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@WatchmanPrivacy/videos)
- [Option Plus Podcast](https://hackyourself.io/option-plus-podcast/) w/ Juraj Bednar
- [The Crypto Vigilante Podcast](https://cryptovigilante.io) w/ Rafael LaVerde - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@CryptoVigilante/videos)
- [The Dollar Vigilante Podcast](https://vigilante.tv/c/tdv_main_channel/videos?s=1) w/ Jeff Berwick
- [Darknet Demystified](https://www.doingfedtime.com/) w/ Doinfedtime - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@DoingFedTime/videos)
- Chris Blec Conversations - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisBlec/videos)
- [Mental Outlaw](https://odysee.com/@AlphaNerd:8) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@MentalOutlaw/videos)
- The Hated One - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@TheHatedOne/videos)
- [Luke Smith](https://lukesmith.xyz/) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@LukeSmithxyz/videos)
- StackCast - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@stackwallet/videos)
- [Surveillance Report](https://surveillancereport.tech/) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@surveillancereport/videos)
- [Naomi Brockwell](https://www.nbtv.media/) - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@NaomiBrockwellTV/videos)

## Community
- [Reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/monero)
- [Monero Town](https://monero.town/)
- [Nostr - Monero Directory](https://njump.me/npub1r27775s4thzj5gdz4j0dr8jygvtldnur2qxlzw0muu7z57k83c4qtsyqx6) 💬 Check followers
- [Telegram](https://t.me/monero)
- [Matrix](https://matrix.to/#/#monero-community:monero.social)
- [BitcoinTalk Forums - Monero Subtopic](https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.42420)

## Events
- [Monerotopia](https://monerotopia.com/)
- [MoneroKon](https://monerokon.org/)
- [Finney Forum](https://finneyforum.com/)
- [Anarchopulco](https://anarchapulco.com/)
- [Paralelni Polis](https://www.paralelnipolis.cz/en/)

# ⭐MISC

## Stats
- [Monero Fail - Node Map](https://monero.fail/map)
- [Monero Fail - Public Nodes](https://monero.fail/)
- [Moneroj](https://moneroj.net/sharpe/)
- [Tx Fee & block visualizer](https://cryptostreets.io/v/xmr-btc)
- [Monero Inflation Checker](https://www.moneroinflation.com/)

## Blockchain Explorers
- [P2pool Explorer](https://www.p2pool.io/explorer/)
- [Xmrchain](https://xmrchain.net/)
- [Local Monero - Blocks](https://localmonero.co/blocks/)
- [Explore Monero](https://www.exploremonero.com/blocks)

## Nodes
- [Nodo](https://moneronodo.com/) 💬 Plug-and-play, dedicated, pre-built node & miner
- [Android Phone Node](https://github.com/CryptoGrampy/android-termux-monero-node) 💬 Run a node on a phone
- [Monero CLI/GUI](https://www.getmonero.org/downloads/) 💬 Old faithful
- [Monero Suite](https://monerosuite.org/)
- [Monero Node for Umbrel](https://github.com/deverickapollo/umbrel-monero)

## General Privacy Tools
- [Pluja - Awesome Privacy](https://github.com/pluja/awesome-privacy) - 💬 Extensive list of privacy software alternatives. Highly recommended.
- [Lissy93 - Awesome Privacy](https://github.com/Lissy93/awesome-privacy)
- [Privacy Guides](https://www.privacyguides.org)
- [PrivacyTests.org](https://privacytests.org/)
- [Exodus](https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/)
- [Messenger Matrix](https://www.messenger-matrix.de/messenger-matrix-en.html)
- [Comparison of Android ROMs](https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm)
- [Search Engine Party](https://searchengine.party/)

This is a wiki article about monero-guide

You can read it on https://wikifreedia.xyz/a/naddr1qvzqqqrcvgpqqqguwaehxw309a6xsetrd96xzer9dshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qqvd4hkuetjdukkwatfv3jsdtjadn


I see

Bitcoin doesnt scale either even with the lightning network 🤷♂


How does using Monero stop you from continuing to save in Bitcoin?


Sure and I wouldn't recommend it. But if you're going to do it, you have far better plausible deniability and all by default with Monero.

Just sounds like the mental gymnastics meme the fact you even have to maintain it going forward even after the CJ. Make one mistake with an old UTXO years down the road and all that work was for nought.


Ok, I see it now, tipped 👌


Ok, then why are you so worried that Monero doesn't scale?

What you're saying is also true. It still doesn't change the fact that custodians don't scale Bitcoin. It scales IOUs.


So you would rather spend more time/money/tedium for worse privacy...when you can just hit the send button on a Monero?


Android. You can also try the web client Nostril, but I think it's no longer being worked on anymore. But still works atm.

https://github.com/retrnull/garnet
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/


:monero:


You aren't scaling Bitcoin usage with custodians. You're scaling IOUs.


this is why we monero

nostr:nevent1qqs956amzsg9jjkfdc76hgl52jdh4k9ev9pa2580dx4hpq4kml2jhpqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzypgdjn7zmpvqc6ptqud9gtutrcc6yq9s2z96h9dr80hss4wl9qwkxqcyqqqqqqgyu6kn8


That's how great Monero is 🤙


NEW - The Chain Of Issuance: The People and Patents That Built The Financial Surveillance Network

The patent hoarding developers and investors associated with PayPal and Google who built the first iteration of e-commerce and digital advertising have turned to the blockchain to fulfill their vision of total financial surveillance and the circumnavigation of government-issued money.

https://unlimitedhangout.com/2024/08/investigative-series/the-chain-of-issuance-the-people-and-patents-that-built-the-financial-surveillance-network/


Add a Monero address to your profile so the Monero and Garnet users can tip your notes 🤙


True, but once a Monero user withdraws they lose track of it with nothing further required.

Bitcoin requires extra manual steps that require a fair bit of knowledge, money, time, and tedium. This is why vast majority of Bitcoin users don't coinjoin.

It's not just that though. Even p2p, you still don't want anyone you transact with to know your balances and tx history. Even if they are people you know.


Nostril, still works, but the creator says not to use it anymore. They're no longer going to continue it.

https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/


Hmm I'm curious as well if there are any


If what you're saying is that a similar spam attack would bloat Monero faster than Bitcoin, then okay, that's true, but nothing to do with fees again. Different topic.


Because no one is using Bitcoin as much. We see every time there is even modest increase in use Bitcoin fees blast off. If you expect everyone to be paying super cheap fees offchain, then how is that different from Monero in that regard? Miners will be making much less money in fees because users are not paying higher onchain fees (isnt that Bitcoins security model for when block rewards vanish is higher fees?)

Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/9f76e4c0f830601c97c152d2b5336ab3a18630c758d0a4ae48b454c08199af30.webp


"but its also true that the reason of fees to be low is low usage"

Do you mean on Monero? This is not true, that's the whole reason for dynamic blocks in the first place. We even have real world examples of it in action very recently on Monero. But continue believing this if you like 🤷♂


Their incentive to stop is the same as Bitcoins. They're throwing money down the drain and don't have infinite money. You can argue they can't spam for as long on Bitcoin. In the same hypothetical situation Bitcoin fees would climb much faster and be much worse off and stay that way if it is sustained because it's blocksize doesnt adjust. Bcash has dynamic blocks now by the way.

Last part depends on rate of adoption, protocol improvements, and consumer tech advances. Just like we can easily run a Monero node at the current rate of adoption no problem. Bitcoin just gains easier validation at expense of higher transaction fees - which just centralizes in a different way (no one will run a node for a network they can't afford to use)

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/563fe6fae92d9f1459b7f4bc85978712a23a1b2c08bd389e681bad97f97a84e7.webp


Yes, all fair and debatable points, but now you're moving on other topics when we were originally talking about fees growing with usage (which is not true with Monero)


That's true

That's just the downsides of CEXs and KYC though. If you're going the KYC route there's ways to mitigate this by just using Monero (i.e Kraken). Swap to Bitcoin after you leave or to Monero before you deposit into the exchange.


Yes, but my point was it showed dynamic blocks working


Yep, fiat ramps and CEXs will always be a problem. Will probably get worse over time. Only way is to buy/sell things with crypto directly p2p and DEXs. Maybe giftcards as a temporary workaround.

Leaving fiat behind for good and building out circular economies are the only real long term solutions for those problems.

Do you already use Bisq/Haveno/Robosats/Peach?


We just had a surge of transactions all of March where we saw it work in the wild. You should learn how dynamic blocks work. There are trade offs, but high fees with more usage isn't one of them.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/monero-transactions.html#6m


Using tor =/= unannounced channels

"...receivers can try and doxx senders in other ways. Like, what IP address did they use when they requested an invoice.

As for the onchain footprint, if someone is watching your addresses, they will see that your funds were used to open a channel with another node. They will also see the name of the node you opened the channel to. When you close the channel, two outputs are created. Each node gets an output. One output is usually larger than the other simply because channels rarely close in a perfectly balanced state.

However, most nodes will just reopen more channels using the outputs from channel close transactions. Therefore, if we wait long enough, the odds are high that my node will use my output to create another channel. Once my node does this, I've essentially doxxed that my node."

Not impossible to avoid, but most users won't do all these things.


Really starting to dig #Nostr. I always thought the tech was cool but the zaps concept is so awesome. It's not much but this is currently the only way I can obtain #Bitcoin (or #Monero) and despite the fact that it's such a small amount, the principle of knowing those sats belong to me (until I inevitably start zapping back) is an awesome feeling similar to the feel of freedom when switching to #FOSS.

Good morning, y'all!


I just included a Monero address for donations. In case the #monero folks what to accelerate that feature.

https://github.com/lescuer97/nutmix?tab=readme-ov-file#support

nostr:npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn
nostr:npub1saessfmtu5xwnwh60e0rwnj0e067npv6yxgc7d96algqqart056s5gkuqh


If monero is a shitcoin (self custody, decentralized, private, just works)

LN is a shitstorm


Recovered pretty quickly though. And on the bright side you can only delist Monero once. Delistings are good long term for Moneros price stability and privacy funny enough.

If you don't know about it already, check out the Bisq fork Haveno-Reto btw. New but promising.

https://haveno-reto.com/


Today Monero is listed as a front-page trending coin on Coinmarketcap

https://simplifiedprivacy.com/posts/cryptocurrency/Monero-JapaneseYen/images/MoneroCoinmarketcap.png

But it isn't rising that much, it's just that it didn't collapse with coins primarily traded on centralized exchanges.  Monero's attitude of "use it" over hodl & leverage keeps it stable.

And special to this situation, as I've written about below, this entire collapse is triggered by Japanese yen carry trades.
Monero's history of being banned from the Japanese exchanges, makes it very few people long XMR/JPY on leverage

nostr:nevent1qqsy8e2auwjs628jzlv5kpaf99cqcw5zz6j9falxcdl6t4h4s8u58eqpzpmhxue69uhk2tnwdaejumr0dshszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucn89um562fu


On Monero and recent discussions about it losing some of its privacy advantages I've seen on Stacker News, I'll link to  nostr:npub1r4jrmus0hqgmx0pulvzvwtdsf34wqvwm768kzway2sruhhv5g6mqcul5p9's post discussing the eXaMinR tool for transparency.

I don't believe he had any malicious intent when revealing this tool, nor will it be relied on to the extent that Chainalysis' services are at the behest of federal government; this tool exists solely to make Monero better, and my hope is that the MRL looks at it and adequately addresses the issues with Monero that makes software like eXaMinR effective in the first place.
https://stacker.news/items/634963


The shutdown of Mutiny Wallet is a result of many factors; directly it was a result of the backbone of the wallet being fundamentally broken at a self-custodial level, and indirectly a result of increasing criminalization of privacy in a world where it is both personally and professionally disregarded.

I am not a Bitcoin maxi, and have never labelled myself as such for the sole reason of knowing better. Bitcoin is better money, and is something I actively want to be adopted, yet I know it is something that can actively be improved upon. The argument for not increasing the block size was always a disingenuous one, as Bitcoin was initially introduced without any block size limits, and one was only created due to early technical issues which have long been resolved; the hatred for Bitcoin Cash was always one born from bruised egos and the admittedly unscrupulous actions of Roger Ver surrounding the .com domain for Bitcoin among other things.

It showed that raising the block size wouldn't immediately result in the centralization of mining pools, or push individual validators out of downloading and verifying transactions on the blockchain. With that being said, Lightning was conceptualized two years before the SegWit split occurred and thus its eventual realization cannot be attributed to Bitcoin Cash; what it CAN be attributed to is its accelerated development.

Lightning is a piece of shit.
At a fundamental level, it was always a band-aid solution to Bitcoin's early block size restraints that no one wanted to revoke after Satoshi's disappearance (which also had a knock-back effect of reducing its natural scalability), despite the 1 MB restriction clearly being introduced as a temporary measure meant to reduce the potential of double spending and a bloated blockchain size similar to that of CSW's Shitoshi's Venture (SV) shitcoin; with very few exceptions which have their own problems depending on the SDK used, it is near impossible to make reliably self-custodial Lightning wallets that don't have their own issues.

Custodial wallets and services obfuscate from users liquidity management, issues underpinning what software is used to power Lightning functionality (LND, Core Lightning, Eclair, etc.) and the necessity of being online at all times; whereas developments in transacting with on-chain Bitcoin have been somewhat realized, very little offline Lightning solutions have even been conceptualized owing to its off-chain nature requiring distinct ways of transactional verification.

It is also a band-aid on a far bigger issue, depending on who you ask, which is Bitcoin's absolute transparency.

Monero was created in the aftermath of Ross Ulbricht's example-making persecution by the United Territories of Israel's government, as no deep/darknet user wanted to experience the level of deanonymization that Dread Pirate Roberts had been subjected to, and wanted to transact with a currency that would guarantee full anonymity whether it be for complicit or illicit purposes. Various voices in the Bitcoin scene that don't immediately write Monero off as a shitcoin (while ironically doing the same for Cash) have proposed taking what Monero does right and gradually implement it on-chain, just to be met derisively either with "Lighting exists, and is better" (it's not) or claims that making Bitcoin more private would result in its crackdown and criminal persecution of anyone using it, which further adds to the fact that Bitcoin's largest problem (yes, more than the corporate influence of Blockstream and deliberately rigid philosophical dichotomy) has been the community's perception around privacy.

Privacy is an absolute human right, and I see it as no coincidence that every effort made to improve Bitcoin's anonymous viability by a group or individual (regardless of my feelings on said software being a band-aid on top of others obscuring larger issues) has resulted in maximum federal persecution towards those daring to get Bitcoin even a quarter closer to where Monero is (which has resulted in it only being able to be obtained through mining or DEX's).

Despite my positions likely going to lead to pushback from those who insist that Bitcoin is absolutely perfect as is, and that I'm a filthy shitcoiner who shouldn't have an opinion on anything, I want to thank  nostr:npub1t0nyg64g5vwprva52wlcmt7fkdr07v5dr7s35raq9g0xgc0k4xcsedjgqv for creating the easiest self-custodial Lightning wallet to exist and for hosting your company's version of it as long as you did; it was what introduced my younger brother and girlfriend to self-custody and the bright spots of Lightning when it all clicks and DOESN'T lead to financial loss (still bitter about that,  nostr:npub1xnf02f60r9v0e5kty33a404dm79zr7z2eepyrk5gsq3m7pwvsz2sazlpr5 lol), and its app store independent nature allowing the focus to be on making the wallet better rather than capitulating to companies that can both fuck off as far as I'm concerned allowed Mutiny to become THE hub for Bitcoin's future developments in admittedly contentious areas like Cashu that has its ardent supporters.

May the best come to you, and continue to come to sound magic money.
nostr:note1mnyfl9hjck35mw67hd659j6a2gxltmyhzq684lm99xnf6wzyeunsh33fy8


How would they know


10 years of Monero! The biggest highlight? Staying true to privacy and decentralization, which gives us real financial freedom and anonymity.


Almost done... #monero

 https://image.nostr.build/4462c687bbb5276be2914fde34e1ed1ba72fe51c5c91b709023f8bc6e39b8e33.jpg


They're low and always will be, even for the same number of bitcoin txs, because it has dynamic blocks that adjust to demand

Bitcoin fees skyrocket with more use because people are bidding for limited blockspace

If you're going to criticize Monero at least learn the valid criticisms against it


If you have no interest in a given technology, theory, or philosophy,
Ok. that's fine

If you have no time to learn, or it's presented in a complex way, I get it.

But to dismiss something outright when you don't really understand it, you are not only depriving yourself, but also encouraging others to not learn. And thus stay stuck where you and they are.

I'm not just talking about any technology using blockchain, which you're immediately labeling "shit" without even knowing what it is.  I'm not just talking about challenging traditional assumptions, which you're labeling "conspiracy theories".  I'm also talking about philosophies like Agorism and Objectivism.  The way we interact and what we value.

Me & you both agree that the majority of people are sheep living inside a box.  Where we disagree is who put them there.


Choice and free markets 👌

Use only one, or use both, the user can do what they want


Honestly didn't expect to be convinced of Monero...crap. The goblins got to me.


Stop what you’re doing and listen to nostr:npub1sn0wdenkukak0d9dfczzeacvhkrgz92ak56egt7vdgzn8pv2wfqqhrjdv9's speech from the Bitcoin 2024 conference.

He makes some very good points about Bitcoin’s lack of privacy, how exchanges have data about their users & share them with governments & why AI will make linking transactions much easier.

He also explains why metadata is enough to construct an entire story about your daily habits – they don’t have to know the specifics of what you buy and why, they already see with whom you are transacting and building a profile.

I can’t believe people don’t talk about this more!!!

https://youtu.be/f3NBhSXtE5g?si=KFAJkxhn7yd2NnhZ


Sounds good in theory, but vast majority don't use unannounced channels. Ironically it also destroys your plausible deniability *if* caught. You're also still using a transparent base layer to move into and eventually settle on (force close/justice transactions) and most users HODL on the base layer. I think BOLT12 helps a lot with privacy, but there are fundamental issues and natural incentives with LN that I'm not sure you can change that directly or indirectly reduce privacy and sovereignty.

I do agree that offchain transactions, but on an encrypted base layer, is probably ideal for the best possible privacy


Why would that defeat the entire premise?

Their transactions remain private whether they are on Nostr or not


Who are the #monero folk here on #Nostr?


monero


Nope.

The reason fees are high is because of Bitcoins fixed blocksize.

Monero has dynamic blocks that adjust to demand. Fees would be about the same as they are now. Less than a cent on average.


Yea, just look at my profile as an example 👌


None of those I listed are exchanges where you can keep your crypto parked that gives them the opportunity to manipulate and front-run (Binance, Coinbase, etc)

They're all either self-custodial DEXs/atomic swaps or immediately give you the crypto for a swap

Users can't "park" their crypto on it like you can with Bitcoin on large exchanges

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's harder to do in that regard.


Not sure what client you use. But use a client like Nostrudel or Coracle to edit you profile and add an address to it

https://nostrudel.ninja
https://coracle.social


You can't install Garnet and Amethyst at the same time. Going to be fixed next update hopefully.


Yes, v0.3.0 has been out for a few weeks already 👌

https://github.com/retrnull/garnet/releases


So South Africans are buying without permission. Makes sense there...cool. Whats the problem? Do you live in South Africa?

"Cool that you mention farmers markets. Hope you have a weekly farmers market that would eliminate the need for you to ever use fiat when paying for groceries ever again"

Who ever said I do that? All I said was you're asking permission by definition when transacting on white markets regardless if you're using fiat or crypto. That applies to me just as much as you.


Dude that isn't tracing...

You could already do that with any Monero block explorer. Click any tx hash in a block and you can see a pubkey. See this is what I mean about you using terms in unorthodox ways.

By the way is that your transaction? I see it was made yesterday


You didn't trace anything. How does this identify the sender?...Did you narrow it down to a single sender? There are always 15 decoys and 1 true spend. You can't tell us which one is the true spend (unless this is your personal transaction then of course you know.)

Thats how rings work.

And mind this is a single transaction. As time goes on, you transact more, and it's chosen as decoys for other transactions, your probability for tracing rapidly falls off.

original 16 = ~6%
1 hop 16^2 =  ~0.4%
2 hops 16^3 =  ~0.02%


Thats a pretty large claim with not much to back it

You can find cases where users were caught because they sent it to exchanges and the exchanges cooperated with law enforcement, or because they naively hopped to transparent chains like Bitcoin, etc, but not really anything that was directly attributed to Monero itself

P2P transactions that dont leave Moneros blockchain give you very strong privacy guarantees


You should be able to tip him now 👌


Sent you a tip let me know when you see it 👍


>"they always have been (traceable)"

>"Someone challenged me to trace his transaction to its source yesterday on Bawdy Anarchist's twitter space and I denied the ability to do so"

wtf bro 😂

I listened to part of your conversation with Bawdy and enjoyed it. Agreed with almost everything you said there. I just think you claim too much on social media, or use terms in an unorthodox way which is why you get all these reply guys like myself.

Looking forward to you and Luke talking on Seths pod next 👌


Hes using stagenet instead of mainnet app that's why the address starts with '5' and you cant tip


You're using the wrong version. You're on stagenet instead of mainnet (I know because your address starts with '5' it should start with '4')

Here is the correct one:
https://github.com/retrnull/garnet/releases/download/v0.3.0/app-mainnet-fdroid-universal-release.apk


Harder to manipulate or dump now that it is off most centralized exchanges. That's why it is less correlated with crypto markets overall.

You can get Monero directly with fiat on Haveno Reto

Swap Bitcoin for it with Bisq, Unstoppableswap, BasicSwapDex

Or swap practically any crypto for it on aggregators like Trocador, Orangefren, Intercambio, Wizardswap  or a hundred other swappers out there

https://haveno-reto.com/
https://bisq.network/
https://unstoppableswap.net/
https://trocador.app
https://orangefren.com/
https://intercambio.app/
https://www.wizardswap.io/
https://kycnot.me/?t=exchange&q=&xmr=on


Add a Monero address to your profile so we can one-click tip your notes from Garnet 🤙


Just tipped your reply from Garnet. Let me know if it worked 🤙


If you're using crypto to buy groceries on white markets your transactions must follow arbitrary restrictions anyway which defeats the entire value prop...might as well use fiat for that (unless all you have available to use is crypto)

Where it makes a bit more sense is p2p transactions where cash is also accepted, gray markets, like farmers markets

Example:

https://nostrcheck.me/media/af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85/a95c3424a9bd4492a908c892279f4554380ea1e2e3d392087591c681ec58131e.webp


Lol

I've already seen several users challenge you to trace their Monero transactions and nothing but crickets from you 🦗🦗🦗

"they only identify the sender in about 1 in 15 cases"
In other words - random chance 🤦♂

"I still think you'll need a considerable amount of off chain data"
Monero never claims to protect the privacy of things that are external to it's blockchain...no crypto can


Because Monero uses pedersen commitments even with quantum computers it's amount privacy can't be broken 🚫👁

Goodluck Super 💀


DarkFi too I think, but much less user friendly atm


I havent played around with them too much, but check out Beam or Zano for smart contracts with strong privacy


No prob, just wanted to let you know there is free crypto tips on the table by simply adding an xmr addy to your profile, even if you don't want to use Garnet it works


Their popularity is a non sequitur

Doesn't have anything to do with the privacy they provide. Amounts and addresses are hidden no matter how many users there are.

If your choices are confined by what governments will or will not allow then that is already the status quo. What are you going to do when they say you cant use bitcoin or cant use bitcoin without their heavy restrictions?


That helps your forward privacy (they wont know where it went if you do it correctly- which is definitely better), but they'll still know how much you bought. Not sure if history is on your side of government agencies and criminals being reasonable and believing that you no longer have it...but up to you

Ideally you would buy no-KYC + mix/swap/use private crypto


This 100%

But if you still want to roll the dice with KYC for some convenience now at the expense of being confiscated later (from government agencies and/or general criminals) that's your prerogative I guess


Tips only work if they are 1) using Garnet or 2) have an XMR address somewhere on their nostr profile

Not sure why it's crashing though. Is it still doing that?


Just add any old Monero address to your profile and any Garnet user can one-click tip your posts. Don't have to do anything else after that.


It's P2P digital cash

Amounts and addresses aren't visible on it's blockchain or to any third party 🚫👁


FYI Garnet supports both zaps and xmr tips

If you still would rather not use Garnet, add a Monero address somewhere on your profile and Garnet users can one-click Monero tip any of your posts. You can convert them to Bitcoin down the road if you want.


Perfect description of Monero.

It's the most stable cryptocurrency with the least liquidity. People use it for economic purposes and that generates stability unlike "liquidity" on fake exchanges with fake money.


De manière assez intéressante, les jetons de blockchains privatives s’apprécient face à BTC, contrairement aux autres alt-coins. Monero +2.5%, Zcash +2.25%.

#Zcash #monero #PrivacyCoins


Whats opinion of this community about monero? #asknostr


monero


The scary thing is that there are people out there that believe Lightning is a good user experience


Lightning is in a very sorry state. Alby is the only thing that works, but when even Alby doesn't work there is no alternative. LightningTipBot was the only thing until it shut down. Is there any other option? We have dozens of clients with zap support but users who can't access it without getting a PhD in Lightning.


That's why I just use minibits ecash for zaps. I don't have time to worry about that shit. Actually being private is a plus and I could care less if I'm rugged for the $1.50 worth of sats that I was going to give away zapping others anyway.


I never said it does, but that has nothing to do with the volume you showed


No they're not either they're on white markets...


No, it's value prop is removing intermediaries.

Users are either using it permissionlessly or not. And if you're not it's just a shittier version of fiat. What is irrelevant is most of that volume.


But in practice 100 million people dont verify...

20,000-50,000 run node at all

and only a small fraction of that fraction are actually paying attention to the constant stream of inputs/outputs and arent just simply "running a node in the background"

Best of luck to you too

https://bitnodes.io/


So you guys would have no excuses left to try it out lmao

Or those who aren't maxis and like both

Even if you are a maxi, nothing is forcing you to use the other. You can receive tips from both and swap them to your preferred crypto.


Intermediaries moving BTC on white market central exchanges

Cypherpunk af and totally inline with Bitcoins value props 💯


Nostr clients by default should let you accept any cryptocurrencies as tips & automatically exchange it to your preferred cryptocurrency…


That's exactly what is happening on darknet markets (AKA free markets)

You can safely discard any white markets transactions (Central exchange volume, ETFs, custodians, etc all involve intermediaries) since they throw out all of Bitcoins value props by asking permission and reintroduce fractional reserving for those users by giving them IOUs


Accepting tips via Bitcoin, Lightning, Liquid, or Monero


It's not necessarily about an early warning. I'm not saying it's impossible, but just showing you ways it would most likely be detected/suspected. It's price action on the market would be one.

I just think you have too much faith in people keeping secrets especially of this magnitude, either escalating the abuse (thus the obviousness) or reaching the community from users reporting it (thru the grapevine or discovering it by themselves). We already have precedent of this in Bitcoin of lone anon users warning devs of inflation bugs that no one else was aware of.

Good news is you don't have to agree with me though.
I already showed you how to sidestep all of that worry.
Use Monero like a checkings account/spending cash (strong privacy,fungible,cheap) and Bitcoin as your savings account.


On white markets/with custodians it has no advantage over fiat***

You're taking what I said out of context (or you dont understand how Bitcoin works)


Yes, and all those advantages only apply when you are using Bitcoin in a self-custodial manner and transacting without permission (BLACK MARKETS by definition)

If a custodian has my Bitcoin and is issuing me Bitcoin IOUs they can still inflate supply for those users (fractional reserve).

If I'm making white market transactions I'm following any arbitrary rules the state wants for those transactions. That also applies to bitcoin transactions made on white markets. This is what I meant by saying Bitcoin has no advantage over fiat on white markets. It's slower, more expensive, much less accepted, and allows the general public to see your financial transactions (at least you have privacy from the general public with digital fiat)

"The government's primary source of power, fueling it's ability to be a surveillance state"
Ironically, Bitcoin also enables state surveillance because it is a transparent blockchain.


If there was a supply of Monero being printed from thin air flooding the market you're saying it wouldn't put sudden and continual downward pressure on it's price?

Lightning isn't really private in practice i.e. You're using a custodian lightning wallet (like most do) that can see everything you do.

Copy me how? I haven't told you anything about what crypto I hold and in what proportions.

Please man. Bitcoiners have no moral high ground in that regard. There were plenty of peoples lives ruined last bullrun by using leverage or pouring their life savings into Bitcoin and being wiped because of the maxi hype.

You're responsible for yourself and your own decisions. Don't give me that bullshit.


showing others how to exploit it*


By "loose lips" I mean exploiters showing others how to do it and telling them to keep it secret...and those people eventually telling their own friends and family...and so on


Indeed


LocalMonero/AgoraDesk updated their warrant canary last weekend when they were supposed to.

Good news: nothing seems to have changed
Bad news: this will be the last time 😢

https://localmonero.co/canary


You can also just include a Monero address somewhere on your profile and Garnet users can one-click Monero tip any of your notes (if you don't want to use Garnet)


18,445,342

Less than Bitcoin


Not sure if this is your issue, but I think a lot of implementations of silent payments in general is way too slow to sync. So what happens is if you have not synced for awhile it is ridiculous how long you have to wait to catch up. This has been my experience at least.


New look for Haveno-Reto website 🔥

https://haveno-reto.com/


I think this grows more unlikely over time as more users would discover this bug for themselves (or find out from loose lips) and are bound to abuse it. Imagine suddenly coming across a money printer...the temptation is too strong. It's human nature.

But I can see your PoV. Don't save in it if you fear this. Use as p2p digital cash and that practically nullifies the worry.


You don't understand the point of the question.

If custodians and large institutions (AKA intermediaries) are moving Bitcoin, on-chain or IOUs on a centralized database, then why does that daily volume matter? If those transactions are on white markets (following all rules and asking permission) we can discount them as they offer no advantage over fiat. In fact it is worse than fiat in several ways.


nostr:npub1d7exvqfvxqyrq0j54e23gz6xj4lfj7qfssqamg60fkfp5f6mlzaskklrf3 is making Monero ecash tokens

Monero address is at bottom of page if you want to support them in developing this

https://github.com/lescuer97/nutmix?tab=readme-ov-file#support


I would place my money on the odds of a total noob making a privacy mistake on Bitcoin as opposed to Monero

But whatever we dont have to agree


What if I told you there were whole classes of metadata leaks that could be avoided completely? Like amounts analysis or address correlation which isn't possible on Monero.

This is akin to saying you should do PGP encryption by hand instead of using FOSS private messenger apps like SimpleX (which is easier, better for privacy, and leaves less room for error). Doing it the difficult way just severely reduces the pool of users who could ever attain privacy (and reduces everyone elses anonymity set as a consequence).

I think we should take easy privacy wins that don't reduce sovereignty where we can get them, but I agree that we shouldn't sacrifice self-sovereignty for them 🤝


But users still *do* have to run a node to gain full privacy benefits of BOLT12 (vast majority of LN users dont) or you're still more vulnerable to correlation from statistical attacks if you use LSPs (AKA intermediaries). They still have information on your transactions. Amounts are in the clear, offer information, timelock details, etc

And you still...
...must coinjoin before/after opening/closing channels
...leak data on-chain from being force closed
...have your IP exposed by default to the network even when running a node
...are vulnerable to probing

Just because BOLT12 is better privacy than BOLT11, and it is, it doesn't necessarily mean BOLT12 is better than Monero (especially once FCMPs are implemented)

TLDR
https://image.nostr.build/9a93e3cf766e56bb4cede32215a75f002206cff783b1864e238b841a72a3c0b6.png


P2P digital cash

It's blockchain is a no surveillance zone 🚫👁


If you love #MONERO #XMR hit me up I wanna follow you!


:monero:


There are only 2 ways to scale Bitcoin: you either upgrade it, or else create monetary inflation through useful forks that serve a designated use case.

Essentially, the entire crypto market is Bitcoin’s experimentation layer & consists of stuff that could have been built on Bitcoin.

In a perfect world, there would be no “privacy coins” & no blockchain analysis industry: Satoshi wanted privacy, Hal Finney famously tweeted about trying to make Bitcoin more private. But somewhere down the line the “Bitcoin is transparent” narrative prevailed because it makes more people trust the system.

It doesn’t have to remain so. Bitcoin without confidentiality is a panopticon and every authoritarian’s wet dream. Time to get better!


iF YOU OWn otHer CRyPtO you can'T own bItcOIn

cHEckmatE VLAd


Of course, but all things equal it's easier to remain private on Monero. I don't see how that is even disputable. Addresses and amounts aren't even visible on it's blockchain.


"We kill people based on metadata"


GM☕🔥

How did i miss that there is a DIY monero signer out there (forked from seedsigner). Fucking awesome.
Software is still in development
https://github.com/Monero-HackerIndustrial/MoneroSigner

https://xmrstreet.store/product/monerosigner/


 #bitcoin

Vlad is stacking privacy coins now
@TheVladCostea
All this bullishness for banks built on top of Bitcoin (Fedi, cashu) makes me wanna buy more Litecoin, Monero & Zcash.

I didn’t get into Bitcoin to surrender freedom of transactions for convenience.

I didn’t become a Bitcoin maximalist because I want the network to scale & become private through custodians.

I was genuinely hoping that all the cool features would come to Bitcoin in a trust-minimized & self-custodial fashion.

If I can’t get what I want, I will find it elsewhere & pay fees to other miners. It’s in the nature of free markets to enable competition and provide options.

Until Bitcoin improves, every complimentary altcoin is more than welcome & useful.


Bitcoin vs Monero #privacy https://image.nostr.build/8f74c95366fc11e627d5c814c547d50266f649ac97e1b736a450d13e6a24bb14.jpg


I think we would indirectly know someone was printing hoards of it by the price tanking towards zero in a short amount of time.

I agree you can't have your cake and eat it too. Both have trade offs. I just think the perceived advantage of being able to directly audit Bitcoin is not as strong in practice (few users run nodes, even fewer pay attention to what is going on with inputs/outputs. Everyone except the latter group is trusting)

Gold still has 10x mcap of Bitcoin. I guess that is yet to be seen.

I'm not betting I'm just trying to use the appropriate tools for the task. A hammer is not ideal for every job.

Markets are capricious. CDs and cassette tapes were sought after and ubiquitous until they werent. Supply can be fixed, but demand can't. Value is subjective.


Ok

I'm not contesting that BOLT12 is a big privacy upgrade for lightning, but for the best possible privacy I'm not interested in:
-having to run my own LN node and managing channels
-needing to lock up money to receive money in the first place
-STILL needing to coinjoin before/after opening/closing channels
-IP address being vulnerable by default (Monero is protected from others on the network by default with dandelion)
-can be force closed against your will leaking even more data on-chain

Even if you choose to use a public node on Monero they can't see shit about the transaction.
Compare that with: BOLT12 LSPs still know some details about payments  i.e. payment amount, timelock details, payment hash. This makes it vulnerable to statistical analysis because of this (the whole reason Monero is replacing ring sigs with FCMPs for sender privacy)
Most LN users use custodians because of the painful UX, a small fraction use LSPs, a fraction of that fraction run their own node and get the full benefits of BOLT12.

Despite all that shit I'm still open to also using BOLT12 when it gets more adoption and if it does what it says in practice. Forgive me for being a little wary after the over-hype and over-promising of lightning by every loud voice in the space.

https://image.nostr.build/9a93e3cf766e56bb4cede32215a75f002206cff783b1864e238b841a72a3c0b6.png

https://zapalytics.com/


How much of that total Bitcoin market cap and volume is over permissioned white markets, ETFs, custodians, and central exchanges?

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


I'm disappointed that nostr:nprofile1qqs2auxkkgfgylem580xrztp8ek5sf83s86k0vfq2feuz6y4lkhskgcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchsztkr48 never got an answer to his question about what Bitcoin looks like to those who can't afford a UTXO.

This is an important question, maybe *the* important question. But it also underscores how much he diverged from his "pleb everyman" origins: this is very much not a newcomer question!

Guess I won't be on WBD to answer it, either!*

*Spoiler: I don't know the answer, but I can describe the possibilities and issues people can (and are!) exploring...


You mean the one provider that is the sole LN swap provider for the whole network? That sees completely the destination and amount, in addition to the liquid funding transactions in the 1 tx/min network with an anon set of like 100 people?

FYI, not even XMR<>BTC swaps are safe enough.


adderall and autism


Installed garnet. Logged in with amber. Works smooth so far.

#monero #garnet

https://github.com/retrnull/garnet


Name any L2 that exists right now that gives us strong privacy that doesn't have at least one of the following 1) custodians 2) permissioned transactions 3) painful UX


Superior to Monero at what? Being an easy target for surveillance and mining censorship?

Tell the darknet markets about your "first mover advantage". They must have missed it.

https://image.nostr.build/1f90427dc509f688d750d255d92b72f31f9bd43b8d097617e5418697e49f98a7.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/305ddddd998a40b0bf14775adb40415acb42e752fa204feb384947fda6c2a877.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/c444a5dca74587682aeb7ea469eec4255bba134d25c5b594c4d21c6f4b3b319f.jpg


Another cool #howTo guide from nostr:nprofile1qqs936kc97s4k4gqjnmltljgqns0uadh08d77t5mypg3anxkneks37gpzemhxue69uhhsmtj9e6hxetwdaehgu3wdaexwqg4waehxw309ahx7um5wgh8smtj9eex7cmtwvq3kamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwphhyar9d4hkuetjduhxxmmdhdhm8r about setting up a username on your domain to receive #Bitcoin or #Monero payments with increased anonymity.
#BIP353
#BOLT12

https://sethforprivacy.com/guides/setting-up-a-bitcoin-username/


Do you know where you are? This isnt a hot take 😂


Oh nice you can zap and do the monero thing in Garnet.


Less scalable (centralizes faster from node requirement PoV), less liquid, less accepted, opaque supply, easier to 51% attack, tiny bit of inflation but it's forever, private but recorded on a public blockchain (private + ephemeral/offchain would be ideal), ring sigs for sender privacy are vulnerable to statistical analysis, syncing and 20min lock is annoying


If you haven't seen it yet, new episode dropped today🔥

🚬🥃 THE CONFAB 05: The Ebb & Flow 🥃🚬
W/ @maxtannahill

- #FreeSamourai
- Behaviours: Social Media vs. On-Chain
- #lightning and #monero spending setups
- #Tether's prevalence as a medium of exchange
- Can't be private / Can't be compliant

LINK: ungovernablemisfits.com/latest/


#TIL I can buy raspberry pi boards using #bitcoin! Ot'd be super cool to be able to sell #HestiaPi thermostats for bitcoin and then get that #CircularEconomy going.

https://thepihut.com/

I'd also be hapy to sell #smart thermostats for #monero, swap it for bitcoin and then use that to buy components.

#IoT #OpenSource #hardware #FOSS


Just wanted to take a moment and tell everyone on Nostr how much I appreciate you.

I love how every argument fundamentally revolves around freedom maximalism.

Lately, there has been a lot of Monero arguments and discussions. While I am not someone who hold or uses XMR, I appreciate how the community challenges Bitcoin to be better and wants to maximize freedom.


**#CakeWallet the only mature wallet out there that I know of that is doing anything rn to further the privacy of Bitcoin transactions with full send, receive, and privacy preserving scanning support for Silent Payments**

**Silent Payments**

Silent Payments (BIP-352) is a protocol for static payment addresses in Bitcoin without on-chain linkability of payments or a need for on-chain notifications.

This protocol protects the receivers privacy by automatically having the sender generate a new Taproot address on chain only the receiver can know is theirs and spend from everytime a transaction is sent to their Silent Payments address.

For a more detailed explanation on how Silent Payments works, please visit https://silentpayments.xyz/

One major difference of Silent Payments is in order to fully protect the privacy of the user and not have the server know which Silent Payments transactions belong to them, we opt for on-device scanning of transactions instead of having a light wallet and making the node do all the work for us. This incurrs greater synchronization time, device power consumption and hardware utilization, but protects the privacy of the user much more.

Silent Payment addresses start with ```sp1```

**Scanning**

In order to enable Silent Payments, tap the switch on the “Silent Payments” card to start scanning blocks for Silent Payments.

https://guides.cakewallet.com/docs/cryptos/bitcoin/silentpayments.png

The wallet will start scanning from the height of when you first opened it after installing 4.18.0 or higher, or continue where it left off. Silent Payments scanning will automnatically turn off once it has reached the current blockheight. If you would like it to automatically scan for Silent Payment transactions on new blocks, please toggle an option under Menu -> Silent Payments settings -> “Set Silent Payments always scanning” to on. Silent Payments scanning will automatically toggle on if there are new blocks to scan and toggle back off when it’s finished.

https://guides.cakewallet.com/docs/cryptos/bitcoin/menu.png
https://guides.cakewallet.com/docs/cryptos/bitcoin/alwaysscan.png

**Receiving**

In order to receive a Silent Payment, you must give the sender your Silent Payments address, which can be found by switching the address type to Silent Payments following the instructions at the beginning of this page. When you want to receive the transaction in the wallet, you must enable Silent Payments scanning.

**Sending**

You can send Bitcoin to an existing Silent Payments address (```sp1xxx```) using the same flow. No extra work is required to send to a Silent Payments address, the wallet will handle the unique address generation in the background before sending your transaction.

Learn more here:

https://guides.cakewallet.com/docs/cryptos/bitcoin/#silent-payments

https://silentpayments.xyz/

https://silentpayments.xyz/docs/wallets/


Nostr is public

I can chime in where ever I want. Get used to it or mute me.


"emotion ridden response" says the person calling me names 😂

Can't dispute a single thing I said because you know it's true


Do you have any historical examples of money that have the unprecedented transparency of Bitcoin? You're talking about a world of theories, but I'm showing you real examples that contradict everything you are saying like gold. You can't verify total supply of that either and that didn't stop it from being money for several millennia.

Money is the most saleable good. Neither Bitcoin nor Monero are money.

Where is the "printing vampirism" in Monero? It requires PoW just like Bitcoin. You can't arbitrarily or centrally *poof* Monero into existence.

You fail to understand the difference between anonymity and privacy. You can be kind of anonymous (pseudonymous) on Bitcoin, but it's a transparent ledger. Bitcoin isn't private.


Why ecash is so much better than your normal custodian:

- it can be audited as easily as any custodian
- users have way better privacy
- users can make payments peer to peer
- it supports smart contracts
- it works half-offline (sender or receiver)
- it's more efficient to run
- individual users can't be singled out: either censor and rug everyone or no one

Why it's worse:
- if the user vanishes, there is no way to recover their funds
- users need seed phrases and recovery of lost funds is more cumbersome than a simple username + password login

(Both cons are basically a consequence of privacy)


All good, privacy is the ability to selectively reveal what you want 👌


Counterpoints:
Gold has been money for thousands of years. Cash is a $100 trillion market cap. Bitcoin is hardly 15 years old and barely over $1 trillion.
Gold and cash are private and fungible like Monero. Bitcoin isn't.
You can't directly audit circulating supply for gold or cash either. Doesn't stop them from being valuable and having massive mcaps.

Monero has less inflation (3coins/10min vs 3.125coins/10min) and less circulating supply (18.4mil vs 19.7mil) than even Bitcoin right now
Less annual inflation than gold. And since it is a reward is a constant, inflation in terms of % is constantly falling.

If you want to audit then run a node like you do with Bitcoin.
You wan't us to believe even a fraction of bitcoiners are combing through input/outputs of 1billion+ transactions on Bitcoin? They just run a node and don't even pay attention.

More scarce doesn't necessarily mean more valuable either. Value is subjective. You can control supply, but can't control demand. The market is a constant discovery process.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy


We need to get our hands on updated stats 😂


https://i.imgur.com/vfCeGmN.png
👀
#Monero is the only damn currency that is used -John McAfee


nostr:npub1cd2c879fmgfwh3d9hkjlz4lr7z5rgngak67uly7yr3jglaqkk9dssew0le Hi there, you can fund your subscription with Monero by purchasing gift cards through our partner ProxyStore. (https://tuta.com/support/#cryptocurrency)


stacking sats
munching monero


Put a Monero address anywhere on your profile and Garnet users can one-click tip you from any note you create 👌

No trace on nostr network/relays by default


Here comes the airplane shhhhuuuuu
#monero #xmr
https://image.nostr.build/68d343e22db1fac7659e0711ff63885d0544d188769b531a4b49b031ff8afb64.jpg


Gold and cash are private and fungible like Monero. Bitcoin isn't.
Gold has been money for thousands of years. Cash is a $100 trillion market cap. Bitcoin is barely over $1 trillion.
You can't directly audit circulating supply for gold or cash either.
I think we'll be ok.

If you want to audit then run a node like you do with Bitcoin, dumb dumb.
You wan't us to believe you are combing through input/outputs of 1billion+ transactions on Bitcoin? Please. You just run a node and don't even pay attention.


"Monero proponents are trying to pump the price"
Literally the least true statement of any crypto project you could've chosen.
Monero users are choosing to push a crypto banned from basically every major exchange because they think it's price will pump?

"These types are disinterested in true analysis of privacy and engineering trade offs."
The community that calls everything a shitcoin now wants to talk about trade offs

Bolt12 is brand spanking new and we're yet to see how it does in the wild. Remember how there was too much hype and over-promising for lightning by every talking head in the space?
I'm not opposed to using Bolt12 if it does what it says, but I'm sure there will be trade-offs like there always is.


Your question is a non-sequitur

What does any of what Jeff say have to do with private transactions?
If you're scared of yearly inflation less than gold (and actually less than Bitcoin at the moment), nothing is forcing you to hold your life savings in Monero.
The same way 99% of Bitcoiners hold some amount of fiat money. Do you ever use cash?


Not necessarily. Satoshi could've realized the weaknesses and figured out better ways to implement better privacy over time. They obviously cared since they had a whole section dedicated to privacy in the white paper. Moneros protocol was designed by a pseudonym so seems plausible Satoshi might have left to work on that project. Especially when considering the same features were implemented in Monero that he described on the bitcointalk forums that you referenced.

But we will never know for certain, obviously


The Ebb & Flow | The Confab 05: Max Tannahill

Welcome to the The Confab, the term derives from "confidential talk", which was commonly used in the Prohibition Era for meetings and conversations that took place in the smoky, rule-breaking speakeasies of that time. The informal, privacy focused and clandestine nature of Ungovernable Misfits lends itself to these discussions.  So, grab a seat and a stiff drink from the concealed bar, listen and revel in the conversation.On this episode, Max Tannahill drops-in to speak with Max Show Discussion I. Looking BackReflections on how the Bitcoin space has changed over the past few years - Max notes that while some aspects have become more centralized, there are also interesting experiments happening on-chain that diverge from the common narratives.II. What the Chain ExplainsConcerns about censorship and the precedent set by the Ordinals situation - Both express frustration with the purity testing and ideological rigidity around how Bitcoin "should" be used.III. Privacy Post-WhirlpoolStrategies for privacy and spending Bitcoin - They discuss the pros and cons of using tools like Lightning, Monero swaps, and gift cards/vouchers to maintain privacy and flexibility.IV. Compliance ConundrumsObservations on the regulatory landscape and potential challenges around taxation and KYC requirements - They both anticipate increasing pressure from governments to monitor and tax Bitcoin holdings.V. Tether WorksExploration of alternative payment methods like using Tether as a bridge between fiat and crypto - Max shares how this can provide pragmatic solutions in certain use cases.VI. Head Up Reflections on the overall state of the Bitcoin ecosystem and the need to remain adaptable as the landscape evolves.The conversation covered a wide range of nuanced topics related to the practical realities of using Bitcoin in the current environment. The main themes were navigating privacy, censorship resistance, and regulatory pressures.IMPORTANT LINKS https://freesamourai.com

https://op3.dev/e/serve.podhome.fm/episode/df3c7f87-bdab-41fe-1438-08dbf068e250/63857763285223131784854a97-a77e-4789-8c08-bf3bc64df911v2.mp3

https://serve.podhome.fm/episodepage/bit-buy-bit/the-ebb-flow-the-confab-05-max-tannahill


Forgot to add that you can also use Feather Wallets "Pay to many" option under "Tools" to break it up, in one-shot, up to 16 TXOs


I read discussion on the bounty page of implementing Monerujos "Pocket Change" feature to get rid of the 20 minute annoyance for new users/wallets with a future update

In the meanwhile, like you said, you can get around this by using an external wallet you already have that you use OR sending to yourself a few times in advance to break up your TXOs


Been testing out Garnet for roughly the last week, and oh boy, XMR tipping is such a good feeling! Even though I've got my lightning wallet hooked up as well, I've just completely stopped using it. Why give BTC, when you can give XMR?

Now obviously using a mainchain comes with some tradeoffs, but those essentially got fixed in the last update of Garnet, since you can now use external wallets for tipping. On the Monero chain it takes roughly 20 minutes for a transaction to be fully confirmed and thus you can't send another transaction for those 20 minutes. So with the one built-in wallet for Garnet, that was one tip per 20 minutes. But now that I can use my external wallet, where I have a bunch of sub addresses, I can pretty much tip non-stop.

For those waiting before trying something so new, I can report that I've had a bug-free experience thus far (I'm sure now that I've said that something will happen!), it just works like Amethyst.

And also I haven't really seen this discussed, but my tipical Monero tip has been 0.001, which is about $0.16, which seems enough for a micro transaction.

If you want to try it out here's where to get the apk: https://github.com/retrnull/garnet/releases

#garnet