Ok, well the ball is in your court

Waiting for you guys to add everything cool about Monero on layer 2/3 (that means privacy without sacrificing self-custody or permissionless transactions)


If the BTC devs don't start baking in privacy on a protocol level, BTC will become the CBDC.

The clock is ticking.

https://i.nostr.build/KGjyW.jpg

#cybersecgirl


I've already done a couple exchanges on it successfully for what its worth. It's only been around several weeks but order book is growing every week.

Here is the SimpleX group chat for it

https://simplex.chat/contact/#/?v=2-4&smp=smp%3A%2F%2FSkIkI6EPd2D63F4xFKfHk7I1UGZVNn6k1QWZ5rcyr6w%3D%40smp9.simplex.im%2FMplYm7uxopKyUOrKqnWySpXQIGxoJWYB%23%2F%3Fv%3D1-2%26dh%3DMCowBQYDK2VuAyEAs8PcRwnf_-H30yXfwV0MSbka9I_xBeVNr4vKJNoReBw%253D%26srv%3Djssqzccmrcws6bhmn77vgmhfjmhwlyr3u7puw4erkyoosywgl67slqqd.onion&data=%7B%22type%22%3A%22group%22%2C%22groupLinkId%22%3A%22YT2t__GnjpZ1W2MjJAz6Sw%3D%3D%22%7D


Where is this magical bitcoin privacy layer, that I can use today, that doesn't sacrifice self-custody or permissionless transactions? (removing intermediaries - the core value prop of bitcoin)


You know ecash wouldnt be one unified anonymity set right?

It would be a fracturing. Opposite effect of what you want.
Each mint would have it's own separate anon set.

and regarding on chain bitcoin
small dark pool >>> large transparent pool
how large a group is irrelevant for anonymity if it's users can be picked out thru KYC or weaker pseudonymity of non-coinjoiners (majority of users)


Makes sense. Nostr is pretty lightning dominated right now. Sent you a little something.

There's a Nostr client being worked on right now for Monero that is Amethyst-based. Should be out sometime this week based on recent comments.
https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/42-349m-nostr-client-for-monero

There's also a prototype web client:
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/


People can hate on Monero, I think the privacy aspect is clearly advantageous, and to be honest, I'm not thrilled with the direction Bitcoin has taken in terms of the mindset of the average NGU maxi.

nostr:note1zgh7rwem5g9xwgk38quasx0hr0rdzsw36dk4nujuy7rrh6rzmrnsplj4tp


anonymity =/= privacy

You can have two users that are using their IRL names yet their conversations can be completely private if were using encryption

There can be two anonymous users shouting to the world, their conversations completely public, AKA Nostr

Here is the address I use:
89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

It's simple to figure out. You can test for yourself if Monero is private by seeing what information you can gather on any xmr blockchain explorer. See if you can find amounts or other addresses I've sent to or received from:
https://www.p2pool.io/explorer/


Check this out:

**Satoshi talking about privacy features that got implemented in Monero but not Bitcoin**

https://i.nostr.build/xE3k7.jpg

#cybersecgirl


Darknet markets disprove your winner-takes-all/Monero-doesnt-make-sense theories, and personal priorities

Bitcoin dominated there first and for years, so it's network effects should have been well established, yet it is being phased out for Monero

Competition chooses winners and it's hard to compete when you can't adapt (or made exceedingly difficult to adapt)


Unfortunately no I don't think so. You mean something similar to what Bisq is doing with Bisq2 right? That's a good idea. Maybe they can do something like that when users build more rep


https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/42-349m-nostr-client-for-monero


If that is your threat model then source the parts and build a SeedSigner. Or get an old laptop and rip out the wifi and bluetooth.

nostr:npub17tyke9lkgxd98ruyeul6wt3pj3s9uxzgp9hxu5tsenjmweue6sqq4y3mgl


Most straightforward way to mine Monero for beginners

https://gupax.io/


More and more traders every week on Haveno Reto. Looking good so far. I've already made a few successful trades.

Give it a try if you want to swap to or from Monero with cash, digital fiat, or other crypto. Can't find what what you're looking for? Put up an offer and let it run in the background.

It's p2p, non-custodial, no-kyc, and all behind tor

https://github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases/tag/v1.0.7


Yes, we're all in agreement with you. Bitcoin is a terrible digital cash.


You're the one defending a ruggable + printable IOU token with you mental gymnastics. Not me.

🤡


Ok

So are you the only person in your mint and you pay your workers out of your mint over lightning? (no anonymity set for your mint and no receiver privacy over lightning - defeating any benefits of ecash)

Or do you mean you pay your workers with ecash tokens? (in which case you are their custodian)


I think Bisq 2 is mainly an easy way for noobies to get their first Bitcoin (because it doesn't require them to lock up Bitcoin) and migrate to Bisq 1


“I don’t believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can’t take them violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something they can’t stop.”

Hayek, 1984
https://video.nostr.build/222e66a56a45429932e3d0a213f88e4091a31300b70a843f8f4cf8b6e9a060fb.mp4


What did he say that was wrong?

I know the ecash token is self-custodial, but it is worthless without the underlying asset that backs it that is held and controlled by a custodian (Bitcoin). The mint can even mass-censor all it's users by not exchanging/swapping tokens (intentionally or by coercion).


:monero:


In regards to "tracking": small dark pool >>> large transparent pool

You can't use amount analysis on Monero like you can with Bitcoin because they're hidden with CT.
Receivers are also unknown unlike Bitcoin because of Stealth Addresses. They could be any Monero user that has ever existed.
Your IP is also hidden from other nodes on the network thanks to Dandelion.

So all this traffic size talk is moot when your traffic is fully exposed


Anyone reading this thread just read his original claim and read his own screenshots...I didn't do anything. You clowned yourself


Just because you got called out on your bs doesn't mean you have to be mad about it. Just admit you were wrong. You can still continue hating Monero for other reasons.


And you can't mine at all 😂


We can go tit for tat on vulnerability disclosures


You're trying to conflate two different incidents that have nothing to do with each other.

It says right on your second screenshot that the attack couldn't be used to steal funds. We still don't know what happened with the first incident (like it literally says on your own screenshot if you would read)


Old news bruh funds were already recovered and then some

I don't know who tf "the corporate magazine" is but that's not what happened at all

You guys will take any random AI generated article with no sources on the internet that confirms your bias just to get a shot in

Yea, it's ridiculous


Confused by your first question. Is Bitcoin being self-custodial and having an unstoppable network a safeguard? Or is that a core value prop?

I don't thing they are in competition because they are solving different problems and combine different advantages

I agree with your last sentence


I think you're confusing ecash protocols (Cashu/Fedimints) with the cryptocurrency 'eCash' (XEC)

But otherwise I agree with everything you said. The mental gymnastics from some Bitcoin maxis that don't believe ecash is a shitcoin, literal IOUs, yet believe other cryptos are, is too much (doesnt mean ecash isn't useful and doesn't have it's own unique advantages)


Nope. It's not that easy. Just like Bitcoiners always argue about network effects, Monero has the lions share in network effects for privacy coins.

It would have to retain the same properties (self custody, unstoppable, permissionless, etc) and be much much better to draw users over. Not equal or just a little bit better. But if that happened then I would end up using it. I don't care as long as it retains the same spirit.


You can't "print" Monero. You have to mine it, trade for it, or work for it. Just like Bitcoin.

Gold has constant inflation and is more popular than Bitcoin by far and has been mined for thousands of years.

All the matter is issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW (fiat money is none of those things)

Crypto will always be around. That cat is out of the bag. There will never only be just one Bitcoin just like there isn't just one precious metal or currency.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy


Monero community is least price-focused of probably any. Especially versus Bitcoin. So no clue what you're speaking of.

Na dude you're projecting with that price stuff. If Bitcoin dropped 90% and stayed there indefinitely I highly doubt you would be in it still.


You're conflating anonymity (pseudonymity really) with privacy. One hides identity, the other hides content/actions.

No, it's not like that at all. The point is with Bitcoin you DONT NEED a view key to see everyones transactions. That's the problem.

*BIP-47 is dead atm Samourai was shutdown and leaked metadata on chain anyway.
*Silent Payments don't hide your addresses from your counter parties or timing/amount analysis.
*Coinjoin is obfuscation - it doesn't hide/encrypt anything.
*Address reuse and consolidation is unavoidable for most users. One small mistake undoes years of "privacy".

Look at all the work you have to do and time/money spent to still end up with inferior privacy to Monero

You're still bringing up things that have zero to do with privacy like "economic incentive distortions" whatever that means

A small dark pool >>>>> a large transparent pool

Yes Monero doesn't protect you when transacting on exchanges obviously. Nothing does.


mleku brought up that ecash doesn't have network level privacy, which is true, but neither does anything else

You have to mask your IP somehow or use tor/i2p/or some other mixer

Monero does offer default IP protection from other nodes via Dandelion++, but your ISP can still associate your transactions with your IP in a worst case scenario (although they wouldn't know amounts or receivers, just that a Monero transaction originated from your IP iirc)


Ecash is pretty damn private and on par with Monero I would say (if not more so since there is no blockchain) when directly using it's tokens (not as much when making payments out of the mint over lightning). Except yea you know the big drawbacks with ecash. Can also do things that Monero can't like offline payments, instant payments, etc

When used with your own node lightning has good sender privacy. Bad receiver privacy. And amount privacy is not guaranteed from larger routing nodes.

Silent Payments are an improvement on on-chain receiver privacy for sure, particularly third parties, but your counter party can obviously determine what address it went to if they wanted and can follow from there if you're not careful.


This is just straight up false

Seraphis and FCMP++ open the door for LN channels


Does it really need to be said? Figured the "why" is obvious by now.

-One is self-custodial. The other requires a custodian.
-One network can't be shutdown. The other becomes useless if a single mint shuts down (voluntarily or not).
-One has no seignoirage. The other can be arbitrarily and covertly printed.
-One has a united anonymity set. The other is fractured.

This doesn't mean that ecash doesn't have it's own uinque perks though.


What a cop out. I sent you a transaction with an address that I use. So you should do that same to keep it fair. Not a "fresh generated" one.

Just admit you're wrong when you said Monero wasn't private earlier. You keep detracting into other thing that have nothing to do with it's privacy like "scalability" (scalable in what way? Surely $100+ transaction fees that continue to increase are not scalable)

You can't avoid exposing your addresses and balances even if it's just to the peers you receive and give Bitcoin to.
You shouldn't have to trust everyone who you send and receive money from.
You never consolidate any transactions ever?
You always coinjoin for every transaction?

Bitcoin can never be private, it's a transparent public ledger. You can  temporarily be kind of psuedonymous though if you're autistically anal about every transaction and like paying a lot of money to do it.

https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html


Post your on chain address just like I posted mine and I will


It's not possible to be resilient to all threat models.

I don't even think China banned Bitcoin mining. They banned mining Bitcoin using the electric grid/fossil fuels iirc and only in a particular region.

Only a few manufacturers make most of Bitcoin newest most powerful ASICs and they are all from China. How is that not vulnerable to state attack?

-Over half Bitcoins hashpower is KYC
-It's obvious what you're doing with that ASIC
-Open to targeted mining censorship

Also, these give off a very obvious fingerprint (energy draw, heat, noise)

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"
https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489


Still waiting for you to tell me amounts and addresses I'm interacting with on my Monero address 🥱

89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4


Do they allow you to pay in Bitcoin or Monero yet? (or any crypto)


The masses don't use Tor in general. So yea that is no surprise it is the same way in China.

Just because something is popular, like VPNs in your example, doesn't mean it provides anonymity like Tor does though, so I don't understand the point in comparing them. VPNs don't provide anonymity so it's moot that it is more popular. You're just shifting your trust from a local ISP to your VPN.

In the same way, just because Bitcoin is popular doesn't mean it provides anonymity (especially how most use it). It provides pseudonymity at best if used correctly which very few do. Monero is a smaller pool, but provides real anonymity in that pool, especially for receivers which can potentially be any user that has ever existed.

I don't claim to know much about Chinas crypto scene but I'm sure most of them are trading on Binances centralized ledgers just like they do here, so we can immediately scratch any of that Tether/BTC/crypto activity off the list as "using" it.

I think you need to remember that Bitcoin (and any crypto worth it's salt) is black market money at it's core. It's value props are lost on white market transactions where regulators can impose any arbitrary restrictions they want up to, and including, banning those transactions. Black markets are the only permissionless markets.


Imagine being a US citizen, rocking your real name and face on Nostr, buying and zapping kyc coin without a VPN or Tor, and thinking it's private.

Stack sats. Use a VPN. Use Tor. Use Monero. There's a reason 'Satoshi' is a pseudonym.

The BTC ledger is both public and permanent. Lightning is not private or non-custodial the way 90% of people use it.

This isn't 2008. BTC is an awesome store of value, but it is still not private or fungible on a protocol level. Everything you do on Nostr is being recorded on a public network. Malicious relays are a thing. Act accordingly.

Remember WHY Bitcoin.

Stay safe out there.

#cybersecgirl

https://i.nostr.build/XVQ2Z.jpg


Anarkio is working on this: https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/

Also there is someone working on an app for this bounty: https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/42-349m-nostr-client-for-monero

Supposedly should be out in a couple weeks


Of course he wont 😂


That's the nature of all FOSS.
You don't control who uses what software or not.

The economic majority just so happens to be using BTC right now just as they're using the Monero that is updating. How is that voluntary network not social consensus?

I don't get your point with the Adam Back factoid. Argument from authority? In that case, why isn't CT good enough to use in Bitcoin if he made it? Adam Back also said Bitcoins fungibility and privacy sucks.

Yes, you made your trade offs and chose to de-prioritized privacy & fungibility. Oddly, you trust cryptography in every other critical area of Bitcoin.


I'm not the one claiming ecash isn't private.

You're the one claiming Monero isnt.

Sure, give me your Bitcoin address on chain, just like I gave you my Monero address, and I'll tell you


Monero isnt a fork of Bitcoin goofy. You clearly know nothing about Monero.


Monero achieves false privacy?

Ok here is my Monero address:
89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

Tell me how much money is in it and what addresses I've sent or received from

Lol how big do you think your ecash anonset is? Especially when the goal is many mints that will fracture your anonset


Ecash is not in competition with Monero either. They accomplish different uses.

Even Lightning is not exclusive to Bitcoin.
Lightning is on Litecoin.
Lightning is possible with Moneros Seraphis upgrade.

How does Monero scam? Show me where it promises to pump your bags or get you rich.

Monero is also opt-in and so is every other crypto out there.


That's the nature of all FOSS.
You don't control who uses what software or not.

You realize as ideological Bitcoiners are diluted with more and more normies and white market business it's very possible that the economic majority could shift and move to more "regulatory compliant" forks right?
The real question is if that happens and the "real" Bitcoin is banned from white markets would you still be all in for freedom money regardless of price? (which would tank in that scenario)


Bitcoin has to work whether it's persecuted by governments or not. That is it's whole value prop.


Plenty of people still use Tor in China. They just use bridges/proxies or steg-based things like webtunnel to route around that.

And just because less people use it doesn't mean it isn't more anonymous than people using https (anonymity VS "privacy")


"well designed" depends on your goals and use case

Major downsides of Ecash is that the underlying asset is custodial and Ecash reintroduces seigniorage (mints can print ecash on a whim). Bitcoins only major value props are destroyed. You bringing back trust and custodians.

With Monero you can have privacy without sacrificing custody or seigniorage

Ecash is also not exclusive to Bitcoin. You can have Ecash on Monero. It's just an IOU.


I see good to know

Depends. Even though KYC matters less with Monero than other crypto...it still matters because even if they can't follow it there will still be a record attached to your PII that you bought X amount of Monero. And criminals/IRS may come knocking later. You're guilty until proven innocent in practice with criminals and taxmen.

I'm not saying not to use dfx or KYC methods, everyone can choose their own trade-offs, but just so you're aware if you're not.


is dfx p2p?

Haven't heard of it


Depende do dinheiro com que se está a tentar comprá-lo

Neste momento, pode ser mais fácil obter outra criptomoeda como Litecoin, Bitcoin, etc. (em vez de usar dinheiro fiduciário) e trocá-la por Monero:

https://github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases
https://bisq.network/
https://unstoppableswap.net
https://basicswapdex.com/
https://noones.com/sell-crypto
https://hodlhodl.com/offers/sell?filters%5Bcurrency_code%5D=USD&filters%5Bpayment_method_type%5D=Cryptocurrency&filters%5Bpayment_method_name%5D=Monero&pagination%5Boffset%5D=0


Just say you like shitcoins instead of doing all these mental gymnastics

Custodial is the worst kind of shitcoin. It's the entire problem Bitcoin was trying to solve

If you're rugged and/or no one accepts ecash from your mint the value of it equals zero

You say no one uses Monero supposedly. So name a few businesses or markets that accepts Ecash (not lightning payments, actual ecash tokens) because there are none


Dude you're a mess

You hate shitcoins...yet like Ecash. A fucking IOU that can rug you at any moment and be printed to infinity AKA a shitcoin

You say "noone uses" Monero, yet literally N O B O D Y (for real) businesses or otherwise accepts Ecash. Making lightning payments from a mint is not using Ecash

All the excuses you are using for Ecash "just use small amounts" "tradeoffs" etc can be used for any other shitcoin you don't like

https://image.nostr.build/925fc32ffc80832582e53360f8b7cb4a766e0bd3bbfbfb3f6689180624f9b20d.png


I think it's a combination of what both of you are saying


Lightning to monero swaps.


the eu trying to ban monero proves that its working as intended :blobcatthonkang:


I don't hate ecash, but if a literal IOU shitcoin that you can print on demand with a single command has it's own utility and trade off...then so do other things. Especially Monero.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-btc-xmr.html#log&alltime

https://monero.fail/map


A Monero educational project funded by the CCS has been released and is now live at monero.garden. Monero Garden is a website designed as a clean and friendly space to start someone's Monero journey, acting as an educational source for users to learn and explore at their own pace.

https://monero.garden

#privacy #monero #xmr


It was a thing, but they removed it after users were experiencing many problems with having to resync from scratch every time they opened it. I was having the same issue. They'll probably bring it back down the road when they get all the kinks figured out


Ha just listened to this earlier lol, good convo


"SimpleX network: private message routing, v5.8 released with IP address protection..."

https://simplex.chat/blog/20240604-simplex-chat-v5.8-private-message-routing-chat-themes.html


I agree. But even i2p is still vulnerable to timing and packet size analysis

We ultimately need something like Nym or something like it but maybe without the token

https://nymtech.net/about/mixnet


What could cause Monero to fail?


Another cool thing about pedersen commitments is that they are "perfectly hiding" meaning it's impossible to break it's privacy even for a quantum computer

"Perfectly binding or hiding means that even with infinite computing power it would be impossible to break the property (bindingness/hidingness)."

https://docs.grin.mw/wiki/miscellaneous/switch-commitments/#properties-of-commitment-schemes


Yes, it is encrypted. When you run a Monero node it's using 'pedersen commitments' to validate that all inputs/outputs for every transaction on the blockchain "cancel out" (no Monero is being created from thin air) but without knowing the actual values for any specific transaction.

https://www.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia/pedersen-commitment.html


Amounts are briefly transparent when they are first mined. After that amounts are hidden like normal.


And you guys never upgrade. That's why you can naively count supply BECAUSE you're still on a surveillance chain.

You need to use IOUs like ecash for anything approaching Moneros privacy and fungibility

Never upgrading comes with it's own major downsides


Se quiser uma explicação específica mas simples do que o Monero faz:

Os remetentes são ofuscados (com “ring signatures”). Pense nisso como um embaralhamento automático para que você não saiba quem enviou a transação. Esta é a parte mais “fraca” da tecnologia de privacidade do Monero.

Mas a verdadeira magia vem da privacidade do montante e do destinatário. Ambos estão completamente escondidos (usando “confidential transactions” e “stealth addresses”). Ambos não são visíveis no blockchain do Monero porque estão encriptados.

Veja por si mesmo. Tente procurar o meu endereço abaixo em qualquer explorador de blockchain do Monero e veja se consegue descobrir quanto dinheiro enviei e que endereços o receberam:

89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

https://www.p2pool.io/explorer/


TIL his name is Seth For Anonymity


Check out my interview with Luke Parker @kayaba ! We talk about XMR's FCMPs, Serai Dex, and the recent deanonymization of Dero
https://podcast.paranoiamachinery.com/@paranoia_machinery/episodes/luke-parker-fcmp-serai-dex-and-dero-drama-episode-10-outlaw-crypto-podcast


Hey #Monero guys, installed #Haveno. I love it.✅🙏👍


:RedHeart:


Your last sentence is less true now than it has ever been


No you can't. All amounts and transactions are visible to anyone on the planet.

You can temporarily obfuscate ownership at best.


Monero:

✅ Not an IOU

✅ Open and decentralized issuance (No seigniorage)

✅ Issuance requires PoW (Not arbitrarily rehypothecatable)

✅ Issuance is stable and predictable

✅ Your tokens don't instantly become useless and worthless when a mint shuts down (0 in bitcoin terms)

Ecash is cool, but let's not pretend it has no major downsides, or that Monero doesn't have it's own perks.


Great conversation


Do you understand how Monero works?

Even if your claim was true those nodes would never know receivers or amounts (because of stealth adds and ringCT). Malicious nodes wouldn't even necessarily know where the transaction originated from because of Dandelion.

The most they could know is you sent a Monero transaction. Big whoop. Compare that to Bitcoin defaults and Lightning (especially the most popular ways Lightning is used - with custodians or LSPs - so almost zero privacy from third parties)


Uh maybe because Monero retains one of, if not the most, important aspect of Bitcoin...: The underlying asset itself is self-custodial. Holding ecash is an IOU for the asset.

You don't have to sacrifice self-custody for privacy with Monero.

I don't hate ecash either. They all have their own pros and cons.


Easiest/quickest way right now is probably swapping for other crypto:

https://trocador.app/en/

Wallets:

https://cakewallet.com/
https://www.monerujo.io/
https://stackwallet.com/
https://featherwallet.org/

Tor-only wallets:

http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/
http://rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion/


Bitcoins first major usecase was buying drugs anonymously on the darknet.
You sound like TradFi and corporate media in Bitcoins early years.

Darknets are highly adversarial environments. It's a crucible for your crypto.

Bitcoin is fundamentally a black market currency and it's whole value prop relies on that (white market transactions require permission, black markets txns don't)

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


You can't hide much on a transparent public blockchain


Good question 🤔

I'm not sure

nostr:npub14slk4lshtylkrqg9z0dvng09gn58h88frvnax7uga3v0h25szj4qzjt5d6 is this possible to do in a trustless way?


Anarkio made a web-based client prototype. Works, but isn't fully complete:
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/

There is an android app that *should* be out in 2-4 weeks:
https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/32-349m-nostr-client-for-monero


Monero zaps live on RebelNet!

Here’s how it works:
https://rebelnet.me/news/0xe037eaa0a7d252c9a9

DM me your XMR address and npub.


Sounds cool, but your answer has little to do with the original topic: Why is it relevant to bring attention to the fact that the IOU (ecash) is self-custodial when the underlying asset itself (Bitcoin) is held by custodians?


>What they mean is that if you lose your ecash, it cannot be recovered. This ecash is the unique proof, and there is no account that can restore it.

I understand this but how does that change anything/why does that matter? Your Bitcoin isn't under your control anymore whether you traded it for ecash or some other shitcoin token.


Improving Bitcoin Baselayer Privacy with Dandelion++

"Dandelion was first proposed for Bitcoin routing on the Bitcoin mailing list in 2018, and has since been improved in Dandelion++, Dandelion Lite and Clover, and has been implemented in privacy first currencies and protocols like Monero and Mimblewimble. On Bitcoin, the implementation of Dandelion was rejected due to Denial of Service concerns."

https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/improving-baselayer-privacy-with-dandelion/


Please review and comment.
By abandoning i2p-zero and encouraging people to install I2P themselves, Monero will be set up for flexible long-term I2P support with very little maintenance burden.
Read more: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/454


2) Dude you know what he means. You're giving up your Bitcoin to custodians for an IOU. The "Ecash is self-custodial" argument is a misdirection.

The same Bitcoiners making such a point over this would NEVER say "technically you're self-custodial because you custody the shitcoin token 🤓" if a custodian took your Bitcoin in exchange for literally any other shitcoin token out there


Summarizing my thoughts on ecash

For some reason this ecash trend seems to be gaining steam instead of going away, so I'll try my best to detail my thoughts on ecash into one post.

1. The incentives are broken

Ecash finds itself between a rock and a hard place. For users to trust the mint, they need to know that the people behind the mint are trustworthy. If the people running the mint reveal their identities (or even just nyms), they're a trivial target for regulators and law enforcement as it's clear a mint is an MSB.

If the people behind a mint don't reveal their identities or nyms, users of that mint are subject to trivial rug pulls with no recourse. Which do you prefer as a user? Mint operator rug pulls or government rug pulls?

If a mint had been targeted like Samourai Wallet was, instead of just a potential privacy loss, all users would have lost all of their Bitcoin.

2. Ecash is not "self-custodial"

For some reason this concept of ecash being "self-custodial" is a thing, merely because the tokens themselves are self-custodied (and require proper backups of seed phrases etc.) While the lines get a bit weird, it's important to separate two things:

1. The asset people want is Bitcoin, not ecash tokens.
2. The asset people give up custody on is Bitcoin.

The ecash tokens themselves are completely worthless IOUs without the Bitcoin behind them, so even if I can take custody of my ecash tokens, I have 100% given up custody of my sats to a third-party.

Because of this, talking about ecash as self-custodial is disingenuous -- no one wants empty IOUs, they want Bitcoin. When they use ecash they do not have custody of their Bitcoin.

3. Ecash still requires all of the hurdles of Bitcoin self-custody

The hardest hurdle for many people to adopting Bitcoin is the simple first step -- writing down 12 words and making sure not to lose them. With ecash you still have this single greatest barrier of entry as you must backup a seed phrase or secret in order to restore your ecash tokens.

4. There is no incentive for custodians to implement ecash

While a custodian could switch to ecash out of the goodness of their heart, the incentives are broken for custodians. Not only does ecash harm the UX their users are used to (not having to store a secret seed phrase), it also introduces additional infrastructure complexity. Instead of just running a database, now they have to run additional mint software to provide their users with tokens, and handle support cases where users lose their tokens.

In theory a custodian could just also store the seed phrase for their users, but then have we actually improved on custodians at all? They even have custody of the ecash tokens in that case.

5. Custody is a line that cannot be crossed

The core of what makes Bitcoin unique is that we can actually take custody of it ourselves, gaining immense freedom and self-sovereignty through a bit of personal responsibility. Even though I am a massive proponent of building better privacy tools, sacrificing custody to get better privacy is a non-option for me.

Surely we can do better and build privacy tools on top of Bitcoin (or directly into Bitcoin's consensus layer) that allow us to have both privacy and self-sovereignty via self-custody.

I will not give up custody of my Bitcoin, no matter what, and you shouldn't either. "Better custodians" are just custodians with extra steps, and still strip us of self-sovereignty and thus freedom.

6. Time is a more scarce resource than even Bitcoin

Even though I have been very outspoken on what I view as a pointless venture, I am not here to stop anyone from building what they enjoy in the space. Devs working on ecash are free to do so as of course I have no control over them, though I fear that time spent on improving custodians is time that we will not get back. It's clear that the US gov and many in the EU are seeking to ramp up their attacks on Bitcoin privacy and self-custody, and our time to build tools to route around them is growing shorter and shorter.

P.S. - None of what I write is a direct attack on any ecash dev, and I have immense respect and personal relationships with most of the people working on this stuff. Respect for an individual doesn't have to mean I agree with them on every avenue they pursue.

 https://i.nostr.build/oM0YW.jpg


Use the dozen others that exist, along with proxy purchases and direct p2p trades. The feds can ultimately shutdown/hamper anything they want on white markets including Bitcoin companies:

https://coincards.com
https://coincards.com/us/product-tag/prepaid-credit-card/
https://trocador.app/en/prepaidcards/
https://www.coinsbee.com/en/buy-gift-cards-with-monero/
https://stealths.net/

https://anonshop.app/
https://monezon.com/
https://moneromarket.io/
https://monerica.com/

https://pb.envs.net/?8c6e45d76a233681#GRCjqnVXPVMqzbZB9xjMAMTaMCrNGNRF5pYCKojtffjm


And do you think those fees will get lower or higher with more adoption? Pure cope

95% of lightning users use custodians because it's UX sucks so badly and liquid is straight up custodial so get out of here with that bullshit you fucking Bitcoin larp

disgrace of a bitcoiner


Hopefully most of the world can save up for a few months to make a single Bitcoin transaction and pray blocks aren't full

The currency of the future 🥳

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-median-income

https://image.nostr.build/9f76e4c0f830601c97c152d2b5336ab3a18630c758d0a4ae48b454c08199af30.jpg


Better than on chain Bitcoin, but lightning receiver privacy is non-existent and hidden balances are discoverable.

Ecash is great privacy, but custodial. Pick your poison.


But a transparent public blockchain that can be surveilled by any government on the planet is

omegalul


Your coinjoins don't make your expensive CBDC-lite surveillance coin private

Seethe and cope


Coinjoins don't make a transparent blockchain private. All connections and amounts are visible to the world. It's temporary pseudonymity at best.

Lightning doesn't have receiver privacy and hidden balances can be discovered. But that doesn't matter because 95%+ use LN with custodians and LSPs so have almost zero privacy.

And you're calling me a retard

Have fun staying surveilled


Pro of ASIC-resistance Monero mining

Deniability. Much easier to blend in. You could be buying/using that CPU for numerous various reasons. Everyone knows why you're buying/using an ASIC.

Concealment. Heat, noise, and energy draw of ASICs make mining very suspicious.

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"
https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489


You still have to be able to use wealth or else this is all pointless. The more you use Bitcoin the more you get ass raped by fees especially in any future where adoption increases.

Bitcoin is an expensive digital pet rock that narks on everything you do


LOL


Ihre wirtschaftlichen Prinzipien haben die Regierungen nicht davon abgehalten, zu tun, was sie wollen

Naive Bitcoiner wie Sie müssen ernsthaft anfangen, mit einem gegnerischen Geist zu denken, anstatt zu theoretisieren


You don't want to use "p2p electronic cash"?


Bitcoin doesn't require permission, but white markets do. We can ignore any transactions occurring there as transient (see recent events). That leaves us with black markets as the only place anyone is guaranteed to be able to use Bitcoin without permission.

Regulators can impose whatever arbitrary rules they want on white market transactions (including banning Bitcoin transactions there). Therefore, the continuing takeover of cryptocurrencies like Monero on darknets is a HUGE sign that Bitcoin is failing its main value proposition.

The SoV narrative is backwards and a bit premature imo. If SoV holds up I can potentially see nations using Bitcoin between each other, but feels naive to believe they would allow their citizens the same privilege with no restrictions (as it undermines their power). Any citizens would have to break the law to do that - and now were back to black markets


This chart shows Monero being used more over time while Bitcoin remains flat and even going slightly downward since 2017. It's just a digital pet rock that narks on you.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-btc-xmr.html#log&alltime


Then don't hold it, use it


Der wichtigste Anwendungsfall von Bitcoin sind erlaubnisfreie Transaktionen. Ohne das gibt es nicht viel Besonderes an Bitcoin und alle anderen Wertvorstellungen hängen davon ab. Die einzigen Märkte, die keine Genehmigung benötigen, sind Schwarzmärkte.

Die Regulierungsbehörden können für Transaktionen auf dem weißen Markt beliebige Regeln aufstellen (bis hin zum Verbot von Bitcoin-Transaktionen dort). Bitcoin ist letztlich Schwarzmarktgeld. Daher ist die Dominanz von Kryptowährungen wie Monero auf den Schwarzmärkten eine RIESIGE Sache und sollte ein Signal sein, dass Bitcoin in seinem wichtigsten Wertversprechen versagt.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


Good to know


Not sure, but all you have to do to protect yourself from your ISP is use Tor or at least a good VPN. But even if you didn't, all they would know is you used Monero. They wouldn't know how much Monero you sent or who received it.


So this is how I understand it. Hopefully I can explain it correctly.

Everything is still encrypted like normal of course. Dandelion only protects you from malicious nodes on the network knowing what node broadcasted a transaction.

But your ISP would still know you were the one who broadcasted a transaction (they still wouldn't be able to see amounts/receivers). Does that make sense?


FYI Dandelion only protects you from other nodes that are communicating and only if you are running your own node. It doesn't protect you from your ISP. So, you still need Tor/Proxies/VPNs/Mixnets to protect you from your ISP and/or if you're using a remote node


Bitcoin has only been around ~15 years. This is all still an experiment. You can't technically guarantee Store of Value. Controlling supply alone isn't enough. SoV is also also a function of demand (which is subjective so can't be controlled) and larger players can always manipulate price like they do with traditional finance especially when large CEXes are involved.

>A vital function of Bitcoin is the game theory level. Bitcoin has a design that allows it to pressure jurisdictions towards liberty-oriented policies *because* it is the best store of value.

"Bitcoin is therefore inherently a black market money. Its security architecture necessarily assumes it is operating without state permission."

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


New Haveno Reto release. Quite a few fixes and changes.

https://github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases/tag/v1.0.6


Was obviously talking about on chain (which greatly affects lightning being usable as we always see when blocks get full onchain). Layers don't carry over the same fundamental properties that make on chain great. You always sacrifice some form of sovereignty like self-custody or permissionless txs so far.

You say that, but still havent explained why.
Why couldn't Bitcoin even increase it conservatively based off whatever metric was it's bottleneck (just behind bandwidth for example?)

If that is your worry, why hasn't Bitcoin adopted MimbleWimble? MW is even more scalable on chain than even Bitcoin itself. Litecoin already did all the work.


0% improvement on that specific metric.

Are you saying TPS has increased?
And if it has increased, has it kept up anywhere even close to advancements in tech and and consumer hardware/bandwidth?

We can emphatically say HELL NO


Thanks lol but you actually can. Android app should be out pretty soon too.

https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril


Heavily depends on rate of adoption and how popular you think it will become. Maybe blockchains don't scale (right now), but Lightning network doesn't really scale either. You need something like ~100MB blocks to even start thinking about it being a possibility (while also ignoring all the other UX problems with lightning)

But if it still matters to you Seraphis upgrade that is coming down the road, and being worked on atm, will allow a basic lightning type of network on Monero


Same. Especially considering ~95% of Bitcoiners KYC and don't coinjoin let alone every spend. They speak as if all Bitcoin is their anon set when in reality it is a microscopic fraction of their peers coinjoining with them.


What happens when tomorrows 12TB is how we look at 12GB today?

All of what you say heavily depends on the rate of adoptions and if it remains a niche doesnt it?

Consumer tech is not static and technological development is not static either.
i.e. implementing bulletproofs shrunk Monero transaction size by ~80%

You're basically saying Monero will suddenly become so successful that it will break (a problem that is also possible for Bitcoin and more likely for it's popularity). What a great problem to have. And if it doesn't gain that crazy level of success (most likely case) then what is the problem? It still remains a useful tool for many.

https://image.nostr.build/f3d4dc2a45d469b1ba3c7f7dad2ec4fb47303d7f53cae9e671f774c31d2ea379.jpg


Centralized in what way? Be specific.

Monero mining is more decentralized than Bitcoin since anyone has the ability to mine.

Monero has just as much, if not more, nodes as Bitcoin.

Even Bitcoin Cash is more decentralized than Bitcoin when it comes to node software since they have 5 major node softwares. 97+% of Bitcoiners are beholden to Bitcoin Core and funded by Blockstream:
https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/software.html


No, you're not delusional, it is definitely a concern. Users will be more willing to trust known mint runners with a good reputation, but that makes the mints easier targets for the state. Anon mint runners would be harder to find, but easier for them to rugpull users without consequence.

The arguments I hear are that federated mints would at least make it harder to rug users, ability to quickly spin up/move mints to better jurisdictions, and to only keep spending cash on it them - not large amounts you can't afford to lose.

Even though I think the strong privacy/offchain/instant aspects of ecash is cool the major problem I have a hard time getting past is reintroducing trusted intermediates again when the whole point of Bitcoin was to remove them


nostr:npub16r0tl8a39hhcrapa03559xahsjqj4s0y6t2n5gpdk64v06jtgekqdkz5pl

nostr:npub1tr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusnw2y5g

nostr:npub1vm68u0w0uhyjsx6rd062u3pufzfa8sd30njsxg3lsppa80aalvhs8gsrrc

nostr:npub1ceu8epzdnsj5hm6uh9k5t3nh22r59j6dtcxjynhwmrkaj0q2jl8q9shx4a

nostr:npub1nxa4tywfz9nqp7z9zp7nr7d4nchhclsf58lcqt5y782rmf2hefjquaa6q8

nostr:npub1jhgmf58wdd4mwe4t95ffea079kjxc7f62ncg9gdjmwcrmy0x6x8sfd8u8c

nostr:npub1m5s9w4t03znyetxswhgq0ud7fq8ef8y3l4kscn2e8wkvmv42hh3qujgjl3

nostr:npub1s0thm3trpndws2ek57vum8qdpwk5jl6mllklg60tvplfq90st4jqgdl3mn

nostr:npub1ge0tzdqy6useekgu9d9g5l3s3t2wpx7p9xxuprz7ajzjaxl4mgyssejcs3

nostr:npub14slk4lshtylkrqg9z0dvng09gn58h88frvnax7uga3v0h25szj4qzjt5d6


I don't think so, but he's on Mastodon

https://mstdn.social/@ImranR


Great dodge 🏆🥳


Hmm, why so?


Guide:
https://blog.nihilism.network/servers/haveno-client-f2f/index.html


Haveno Reto started off humble but is growing pretty fast. There were almost no offers last week now 48 total offers available. ~2.5x volume from last week. Try it out:
https://github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/actions/runs/9148407756

You can use nightly.link to download the installer without a github account (copy/paste the link above):
https://nightly.link/


All ip addresses that interact with the mint, not any particular token*


You're 100% right both are at odds. The longer you wait the more you expose yourself to rug pulls. But if privacy and anonymity is your goal it's better to wait.

Good question. I think the only thing a mint knows is if a token is valid (or not) and all ip addresses that interact with it, but not necessarily what specific tokens your ip address is associated with since token creation is blinded if I understand correctly. This FAQ has a lot of our questions in it:

https://docs.cashu.space/faq#general-safety-and-privacy-questions


É evidente que a autora está apenas superficialmente familiarizada com o Monero, é muito parcial em relação à bitcoin e as suas fontes estão todas muito desactualizadas.

Ao longo do artigo, a autora refere-se constantemente a “investimentos” e a gráficos de preços. O Monero nunca afirma ser um “investimento”. Em lado nenhum o Monero promete algo tão cobarde como encher os bolsos. O seu poder reside na sua utilidade transacional.

É dinheiro digital p2p, mais próximo em espírito da visão cypherpunk original, puro e simples, e é o mais robusto e testado em batalha até à data


You can split your balance up so you don't have to wait. Like I said it's still rough. Work-in-progress. I can see if Anarkio can automate that somehow so we don't have to worry about it. Monerujo has that feature i believe maybe they can snag it from them.


No unfortunately

You need to use tor or a vpn for that


Who is ready to start using Monero tips for Nostr?

Simple and a little rough atm, but it works. Give it a try:
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril


iirc the mint can see your ip address and lightning payments received of course, but cannot tie any amount to any particular token because the mint is blinded. If you make a lightning payment to someone outside of the mint (as opposed to trading the ecash token itself - most private way to use it) the mint can see the invoice amount and the receiver as well.

So if the mint receives a specific lightning payment for X amount and immediately after the mint is being asked to exchange some ecash to make a lightning payment for ~X amount it is very likely the same person. That's why it's best to stay awhile (to put as many transactions that could've been you in between your deposit and withdrawal) and not withdraw a similar amount that you deposited (need to use tor or a good vpn too)


Except you can...

https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/

Now send him some Monero or cope into surveillance and seethe for eternity


Nice

Why is Haveno labeled an "In-person service"? 🤔

They have digital fiat apps, cash-by-mail, and crypto payment methods available


Haveno has been listed:

https://kycnot.me/service/haveno

"Non-custodial exchange platform for crypto and fiat currencies built on Tor and Monero."


:partyblob:


If the only solution for Bitcoiners to have private payments is custodians (be it e-cash, Fedimints, etc. as is all the rage) then Bitcoin will simply be dead for me. Feels like the ultimate cop-out.

Custody is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Custody not only opens up immense risk for loss of funds, it also makes these tools far less resilient to adversarial environments.

Can "they" stop every Bitcoiner from keeping 12 words safe? No.

Can "they" stop a few popular mints from operating? Absolutely.


Pegging in and then immediately out does almost nothing for privacy. The longer you stay in the mint the better. Breaking the peg out into different amounts at random times is helpful too.


Oh yea, Anonero wallet also has polyseeds too I think


Monero supports 25 word wallets and the newest 16 word "polyseed" wallets. I think Polyseeds are only available on Cake and Feather Wallet right now.


I feel like these new Bitcoin L2s can never go anywhere, even those that aren't scams, because they are tied to companies and centrally controlled, even if not strictly custodial. This is probably valid for Ethereum L2s too, zk-rollups and whatnot.

If you're an external individual or company you shouldn't really be investing time and energy and your brand into a thing that is just another company with zero network-effect. You would have to be part of that growing network-effect and you shouldn't do that organically and for free (this is probably why these things always do a lot of "partnerships"), and we need that organic stuff for Bitcoin to work.


No prob. Yea same. Doinfedtime has been releasing more content lately. Why is Monero Talk a big no no for you? Just curious


Good podcasts that are Monero or at least Monero-related are... Monero Talk (of course), Monero Magazine, AlexAnarcho, Outlaw Crypto Podcast, Mental Outlaw, and Doinfedtime are a few

https://www.youtube.com/@MoneroTalk/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@moneromagazine/videos
https://alexanarcho.live/podcast/cypher-7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqN3RpopZQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH5swpq-dN8


I heard this opinion pop up recently from ArticMine and Cryptocomicon on latest Monero Talk podcasts, but no I wouldn't say that is the general opinion of the community. It's still very much no-KYC as far as I can tell. Like someone else said below me in the comments, with further CEX delistings and scapegoating of Monero on white markets, I can't see any advantage to doing this as time goes on.


All bitcoiners talk about opportunity cost, eating noodles and keeping your old underwear to stack more. I did this. I'm seven years in now and stacked as hard as I possibly could, left nothing on the table. But recently I've hit a limit. It feels like that scarcity mindset stage has reached it's useful conclusion. I'll still sweep excess into corn but the absolute focus on stacking is done for me. The longer you stack the less difference it makes and this alters your priorities. Life has opportunity cost too, no matter how much corn you end up with, you can't go back in time with it. I'm starting to spend on what I value not just what I need. I think once you've done the work and made the sacrifices for your stack, think hard about what comes next.


Expected to be out sometime next week. Bookmark this:

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/32-224m-nostr-client-for-monero


Anonymity = a defence (in part) to Targeting ;)

List of technologies to MASTER (not learn):

1.  VPN (eg openvpn)
2. Tor (not just as a browser)
3.  Thunderbird (Mozilla/email application).
4.  OpenPGP Standards Compliant Email / file transfer (eg protonmail + protonbridge) config + remailers/nym-servers.
5.  Encrypted File Storage (protondrive, mega.nz).
6.  Encrypted password manager/disposable email addresses (eg protonpass).
7.  Bitcoin Core (basics/theory)/Wallet(s).
8.  Lightning Network light/full node(s)
9.  Monero (XMR) - payments privacy
10.  ISP resilience (eg satellite network/mesh network(s).

Do so = you free. :)


Si tienes que temer que puedes perder una gran cantidad de dinero en «Lightning» en cualquier momento esto sólo suena como un diseño terrible para una red 😂

Sí, ¡ojalá alguien coja «Whirlpool» y termine el trabajo de descentralizar coordinadores para hacerlo realmente imparable!


I'm familiar with BasicSwapDex, but I'll check out Komodo, thanks


I've never used Dero or been interested in it

Was always skeptical of the hype and the misrepresentation of it's tech


Comparado con todo Bitcoin, seguro que es cierto, pero «Whirlpool» tenía más Bitcoin total en su mezcla que las redes «Lightning» y «Liquid» juntas. Pero sí, en general, la privacidad no es muy popular.

Sí, es cierto que las transacciones mixtas en el pasado todavía ofrecen el mismo nivel de privacidad hoy en día (siempre y cuando dirigieras tu propio «Dojo»). Sin embargo, es lamentable que quien quiera el mismo nivel de entropía que ofrecía «Whirlpool» ya no pueda hacerlo.

«Stonewall» y «Stonewallx2» son mejores que nada, pero no estaban al mismo nivel que «Whirlpool» en cuanto a «anonymity set». Para ser sincero, no sé muy bien qué tenía de especial «Ricochet». ¿No es básicamente mover las monedas en varias direcciones diferentes a lo largo del tiempo antes de enviarlas a un intercambio?


Yea, that guy is a giant sleeze

He's just hurting Dero. Just disincentivizing anyone from disclosing bugs and not trusting their community.


Major implementation flaw revealed on Dero yesterday breaking amount and receiver privacy

A story in a few screenshots 😬

https://gist.github.com/kayabaNerve/b754e9ed9fa4cc2c607f38a83aa3df2a
https://image.nostr.build/ce89957c2ae232a1ddba9a23c4b04c3e7d700138aa35c8871aded8986be091c3.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/ef267b6ec86e24caed7619cc1594a84cf6861743e712e5313014c5c3633546ba.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/6e0e2b8c796f6ef483e962c1bc283d72788d235fad2b1175216b1f2210611100.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/95fbce1c8b62ad93fe8f9cf73530c6b0f7767d7085eed51ee0951f5e7d65bbfc.jpg


You can say that about literally anything including how Bitcoins cryptography works

It also isn't THAT hard to learn what commitments are and the math behind them. You could do it in an evening.

https://docs.grin.mw/wiki/miscellaneous/switch-commitments/


Swap to XMR with Alice

Later swap back to BTC with Bob (broken into separate amounts and different times)

All behind Tor or at least a good VPN. Change your Tor identity or server for each swap.

If you want to go with atomic swaps, BasicSwapDEX uses "scriptless scripts" that hide the atomic swap info off chain:

https://academy.particl.io/en/latest/basicswap-dex/basicswap_technicals.html#scriptless-scripts


Good point


In what way is it the "most" moral?

All mitigations so far involve trusting others either via custodians or asking permission gutting the entire point of Bitcoin


I think I agree with you for these specific attacks. They would be difficult to discover on Monero unless in some indirect fashion or someone else found the exploit.

Maybe you should bring up the reorg tracker somewhere to discuss and someone can try and implement it if you cant sounds look a good idea. Maybe on:

https://bounties.monero.social/


Tienes razón. Me refería a que nadie está dirigiendo un coordinador popular ahora mismo que yo sepa (y eso es importante ya que afecta al "anonymity set")


I felt bad more than anything

I'm sure your wine is great


No idea what you are going on about mate. No one is arguing about anything here except you.


I've actually been listening to quite a bit of Vlad lately. Will definitely check it out 🤙


I remember once upon a time inquisitive Ben asked about Monero for the first time on Bitcoin Twitter

Of course the maxi cult flooded into the comments to bully out any curiosity he had and he sheepishly backpedaled

The end


Looks to be very soon

https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/32-006m-nostr-client-for-monero


What is the max fee for someone to move their limited supply? (functionally destroying any savings below a constantly rising threshold - is that moral?)

Hint: 📈


Gold was (and still is) hard money for civilization for several millennia and it is still continuously being mined. Also much more popular and larger market cap than Bitcoin. It would be absurd to call gold "immoral"

What matters is issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW. All the problems of fiat stem from being the opposite of those three.


Both Monero and Bitcoin can help right now.

https://m.primal.net/IHbH.png


A few more quotes from some prominent Bitcoiners...

"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo

"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor

"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos

"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell

"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee

"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser

"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry

"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand

"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki

"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet

"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero" -Balaji

"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc

"Surprising number of Monero lovers on #Nostr. It’s the only altcoin that I consider has a community of actual cypherpunks with similarly aligned values as bitcoin." -Guy Swann

"Monero has always been the altcoin outlier for me, never a shitcoin because I have a valid use for it that I can't achieve with #bitcoin." -Peter McCormack


This is my thinking too. If you are a nation state, and want users to distrust the network, why not just spin up a bunch of miners to attack it and/or regulate white markets?

More direct and easier to attack than 1) trying to figure out if a double spend bug even exists in the first place and 2) secretly double spending low amounts slowly over time that would have virtually no affect on price which means no users would even know. If it isn't enough to change anything does it really matter?


I would accept the fork-to-fix argument from Bitcoiners if the exact same thing wasn't incessantly used to criticize other crypto all the time as a flaw (not saying you say this). It would also only be a very temporary solution of course and does nothing to remedy the aftermath (All users that gave away goods/services are screwed).

Maybe I'm ignorant, but what is so great about StratumV2? It's a small improvement over current mining pools on Bitcoin, but payouts remain custodial, and I thought P2Pool is superior anyway?

Ok I see what you mean for that specific type of attack. Would depend on the exact way the bug worked if the double spend was discoverable or not. The flood attack in March, or whatever it was, was noticed almost immediately. But if it wasn't discoverable then yea I admit we would only be able to suspect something was going on via market price consistently sliding downward in a relatively short period of time?


That's true, but downside is that would be a very small anon set if users are fractured over thousands of mints


Seems like a Catch 22

Publicly known mint runners that become popular will be easier for users to trust, but also easier for governments to target/regulate/take down

Anonymous mint runners will be harder for governments to target, but easier to rugpull their users without consequence


btw check your DMs 🤙


I agree with you that's what I meant worded it badly


We need to somehow have a unified order book no matter what client a user chooses or the liquidity will be fractured and/or centralized

I don't think in-person cash trades were all that popular and the pulling a gun thing was always possible, not unique to Haveno, that's why you should meet somewhere in a public area if you do that

Cash-by-mail and payment apps seemed to be the most used by far iirc


Either buy a different crypto like BTC, DOGE, LTC and swap it

or if you want to buy it directly with fiat wait until Haveno drops. Should be soon.

nevent1qqsykacp8g2vku9qanqvl37u3m3m6htqw8vtskc62zrskpa3q8ks6fgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqsxs4gda


Samourai Whirlpool ya no existe


https://haveno.exchange/faq/

https://www.getmonero.org/resources/about/

https://localmonero.co/knowledge

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/


At 11:27 a.m Eastern time today May 14th 2024 governments around the world lost full control over #Monero because now a haveno network called reto is fully online. https://monero.town/post/3143272

it is the Monero version of bisq.

As of this time, two transactions have already occurred, and at least one of them was just a successful test.


There are currently multiple Haveno networks

Guest Post by my friend, nostr:npub1m5s9w4t03znyetxswhgq0ud7fq8ef8y3l4kscn2e8wkvmv42hh3qujgjl3
Quote:

At least 2 separate Haveno networks have launched as of today. One is called Reto and the other is called HardenedSteel. Those are the only ones I’m aware of right now, and things are happening pretty fast.

The haveno software was designed with the assumption that only a single network would be operated. People could fork it and run their own networks, but they wouldn’t interact directly at all. But it looks to me as of this moment this is not how it is going to play out.

The client has the network info hard coded. So to use more than one, you need two copies of the client. This means that for most people they have to pick one. And, users might not understand this, just google “haveno” and pull the first git repo they see. This has significant, fast moving and quickly ossifying network effects with big repercussions.

We need to be very vigilant right now, as we are about to witness the very swift rise of a major power broker in our community. We don’t want to start using a Haveno network run by scammers or authoritarians. Each network is it’s arbitrators, and soon, the merchants on each one.

I think it’s probably a good idea to figure out a way to connect to multiple networks, and to show listings with details about which network/arbitrator set a user is trusting when taking up a listing.

I’m cautiously optimistic, Monero has gotten rid of powerful people without a hitch before. But it is a bigger community now and that will be much harder to do. If we are vigilant during this time and we get through this successfully I think we become unbeatable, but the road directly ahead of us is treacherous, the next few days are going to move very fast.

Source:
https://monero.town/post/3138955

Mister_Monster's Nostr:
npub1m5s9w4t03znyetxswhgq0ud7fq8ef8y3l4kscn2e8wkvmv42hh3qujgjl3


Definitely less secure overall I think


Haveno and Serai should be out soon

https://image.nostr.build/b9fb75d62622fdd430324207a8b27b54ac4f13cd09e6c7be659fb518ba2eca83.jpg


Ou toda a gente pode utilizá-lo sem permissão ou ninguém pode


Anywhere we can read about this?


Agree with you. There will probably be many rugpulls.


Nano instant and feeless transactions are pretty cool and DAGs seem very scalable. One thing that sucks is that only 33% of the network is required to halt/censor everyone elses transactions iirc

It also requires user to actively vote for their representative to secure the network, so brings in all the problems of voting in general (weak incentives/voter apathy)


You're right. But to be fair you wouldn't *necessarily* know government controls over 50% of Bitcoins hashrate either. Just say a pool or two become large enough and is in a hostile country like China where government can have complete control over that company but we wouldn't overtly know. Or a growth of miners coming from unknown or scattered origins but really belonging to the same entity.

But I get your point that it is easier to spin up and attack Monero (also potentially easier to pushback against VS ASICs). I guess we would suspect something if everyones transactions were constantly failing mining empty blocks for long enough.


Oh sweet summer child...

Yes, we are jumping on this quote because it is of vital importance


If that is so, then it is just a fact. You are not free.

The point is having the options of privacy and anonymity can open a new realm of freedom you wouldn't have otherwise had under those conditions which can potentially even aid getting your "real" freedom back


I may or may not agree with PoS, but I don't have anything against people voluntarily entering or leaving those networks. The US Dollar is a bit of a stretch. Not an open permissionless system that anyone can just fork or leave. All other currencies are beholden to the US dollar too via force.

PoW is not flawless and neither is resistance to hardforks. There is no immutable law of the universe that prevents majority of BTCs increasingly diluted users (normies) from moving to more compliant and captured Bitcoin forks in the future, i.e. because it is regulatory friendly, and taking most of BTCs hashpower and value with them.


Ok, but being pseudonymous is obviously a form of hiding...


Seems like a trilemma...

Bitcoin: Self-custodial, NGU
Monero: Self-custodial, Private
Ecash: NGU, Private

Depends what you mean. If we assume the mint can be trusted...

Pro: Monero network is more resistant to direct physical attack from states considering node count and ubiquity of general purpose CPU mining.
Ecash is either a single mint operator, or a handful of people from a federation you can go after. Might be harder for a federation, but defnitely much easier than rounding up every single miner on Monero. You could try and reduce this vulnerability by having many mints, but that would be negative for anonymity set.

Con: Monero network is currently more vulnerable to a pure hash war VS the state.
This attack isn't possible with Ecash because no mining is involved, obviously...but it involves assuming the mint is and will always be trustworthy (wasn't the whole point of Bitcoin to remove or reduce trust?)

https://monero.fail/map


Devs changes mean nothing without users agreeing and going along with those changes voluntarily

Monero only exists because users disagreed with changes previous devs made in the first place


Targeted mining censorship is possible on Bitcoin, not possible on Monero

Large consolidated ASIC mining farms are also easier to take down or co-opt by the state VS ubiquity of Monero mining

Over half Bitcoins hashpower now requires KYC

Everyone knows what you're doing with that ASIC miner you bought

Heat, noise, and energy draw of ASICs don't help either

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"
https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489


Freedom is dependent on privacy. Why do you think intelligence agencies want more of it over you, yet suppress you from having any over them? (classified docs, black budgets, gag order, etc)


It would be better to say  "you can't have freedom without having control over your privacy" AKA your sovereignty over what and to whom you reveal information

If someone has any information they wish to know about you at all times, and you have none about them, who do you think has power and influence in that situation?

Just apply it to a game of cards as an analogy


So then why are you hiding behind a nym like a "rat"? 🤔


:Heart:


"We might have turned into petty tyrants and forced people to do things against their will, ruined anyone with a different opinion, and killed or injured them in the process, but we were just scared! Oopsie 🤭"


Ok, what will you do when they push another executive order 6102 saying no citizens can self-custody their Bitcoin: "Please deposit all your Bitcoin at one of our regulated approved custodians and you will be given a Bitcoin IOU." Now what? Your only alternative is to break the law if you don't want to. Now you are in the black market territory. There is already precedent for this with gold.

Ok, what if they just make a law saying you can't leave the country with your Bitcoin? Again, you now must break the law. There is no getting around it. You can ultimately be lawful or permissionless, but not both.
Jurisdictional arbitrage sounds great in theory, but 99% of people cannot just pack up and migrate like that especially nowadays. And they'll just place a burdensome exit tax so no one does. Didn't you see what happened to Roger Ver recently?


Sorry, our worldviews are just incompatible. Like I said if democracy overrides Bitcoin, then it can't be permissionless. If it isn't permissionless it is of no use and fails the original value prop. Think adversarially: If you need permission a government can simply make a law saying you can't self-custody your Bitcoin, you must use their Bitcoin IOUs, and they can print as many Bitcoin IOUs as they want for it's citizens. Now we are back to square one.

Consent is everything. I don't think something magically becomes morally good just because a system is a democracy and more people win a vote over a minority (which is not how laws are decided in reality anyway either)

In that case, a gang of rapists could win a "vote" over their victim. A mob could "vote" to take all your stuff. Makes no sense.

You have a very "solarpunk" take on crypto and paternalistic view of government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA3YZVDUN5s


O Lightning tem uma privacidade de remetente bastante boa se usado corretamente, mas ainda fica aquém do Monero como uma ferramenta de privacidade holística. A privacidade do recetor, em particular, é terrível e os saldos ocultos podem ser sondados e descobertos por um ator motivado.

O que é pior é que a grande maioria dos usuários do Lightning está em carteiras de custódia e LSPs que vêem quase tudo. Quase nenhum usuário do Lightning tem seu próprio nó. Com o Monero, não é necessário ter o seu próprio nó para beneficiar de total privacidade transacional.

Toda a rede Lightning também é incentivada a se consolidar em enormes hubs centralizados (porque isso significa taxas mais baratas e menos falhas de roteamento). Isso reduz quaisquer benefícios de privacidade do roteamento de cebola.

A discussão sobre a inflação está a sair do tópico, uma vez que o tópico original é sobre privacidade. Mas também tenho argumentos a esse respeito, se quisermos realmente entrar no assunto.

Como eu disse na última resposta, esses bugs apenas afectaram a privacidade do remetente (não a privacidade do montante ou a privacidade do recetor) e foi apenas um aumento na probabilidade de descobrir o remetente não determinístico como uma transação Bitcoin ou Lightning. Também foi corrigido. Em casos extremos, isto seria o máximo que se poderia saber:

Alice enviou [?] XMR para [?]

O que é praticamente inútil. Um terceiro poderia talvez saber que enviaste Monero. Isso é tudo. Não quanto ou para quem.

Há uma atualização futura chamada "Full Chain Membership Proofs "Seraphis" que resolverá esse problema para sempre. Basicamente, qualquer transação tornar-se-á potencialmente derivada de todos os


Switch to timeline to "all time" and scale to "log" to see the broader picture


Txns/day:
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-btc-xmr.html#log&alltime

Blocksize:
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/size-btc-xmr.html#log&alltime


Irony is you sound exactly what TradFi and corpo bobbleheads were saying about early Bitcoin in your first sentence.

Again, all that is tangential to permissionless transactions. White market transaction will not help you with that. You're going to regret being so heavily dependent on KYC CEX reliance and hyper focused on price in the long run.

Here are more metrics for adoption aside from the tunnel-visioned pricebois:
nevent1qqsyqctqp7vv7vyjumlvj4qf89xrmav7v9gmvp22dvvmsj8slmt6eucpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsyg90wsx3nzathrrmstg2guvwkd2tk0m2lx5cvwdct499eufhrj46s5psgqqqqqqswyvn6v


Not really. Relatively easy to go any crypto <-> Monero p2p and/or no-KYC.

P2P + no-KYC:
https://unstoppableswap.net/
https://basicswapdex.com/
https://hodlhodl.com
ETH & BCH atomic swaps https://wc2-web-examples.vercel.app/
Serai and Bisq2 around the corner

no-KYC instant swap aggregators/exchanges:
https://trocador.app/en/
https://orangefren.com/
https://intercambio.app/
https://www.wizardswap.io/
https://tradeogre.com/

And many more.

But sure there has been a damper on direct fiat <-> Monero with LocalMonero closing. Haveno will fix that for good.

Monero is also the largest trading pair on Bisq by far. It even rivals Bitcoin in number of buyers and sellers on the market.

Easy centralized KYC routes are just a shaky foundation that will become a target and major regret of dependence in the longrun. Price will plummet when those easy chokepoints are cut off or regulations increase and encroach. DEXes and p2p trading is the only thing that is unstoppable that matters long run.

Oh, well then you miss the entire value prop of Bitcoin.


Again, you are still bringing in trust relying on a third party very small set of users to discover an inflation bug for you + report it (instead of the massive incentive to covertly take advantage while they can)

It sounds like you are not auditing regularly which gives you little benefit

I see it as a theoretical advantage that would be great if all or many users did it, but the fact is extremely few do. Most Bitcoiners don't even run a node let alone audit.

Yes, it's true Monero is harder to purchase or swap thru restricted centralized KYC routes. But you shouldn't rely on that for a permissionless network anyway. Bitcoin/Monero are ultimately black market money so the legal stuff is tangential to the entire goal which is permissionless transactions (which are at odds with white market transactions which require permission to use in)


"Don't trust, verify"

You're trusting someone will audit for you, but you can't even trust yourself to do it...
So again, how is that an advantage? What if the two people that audit are exploiting an inflation bug? How would you know that if you don't ever audit?

Agree it is a trade off Monero makes, but for the privacy and fungibility it gets it is worth it imo. Especially if practically no Bitcoiners make use of their advantage anyway.


Either the law can stop it or it can't. If it can stop it, it is centralized and is not permissionless.
If the law can't stop it, then it is decentralized and permissionless.
Can't be both.

Though you should be able to choose if you want to heed collective wisdom, or not...not forced. All break-through revelations for humankind happened first by questioning "collective wisdom"


Has nothing to do with individual VS collective

Everything to do with voluntary VS coercive

You can voluntarily be part of a collective, or coerced by force to be alone in a cage

The state is by definition a monopoly on violence (even the right to defend yourself from aggressors is always under increasing attack). They can produce nothing without first taking it from others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide


Not sure what you're exactly looking for but here are a few metrics of general adoption increasing for Monero over time...

Node count:
https://monero.fail/map
https://bitnodes.io/

Txns/day:
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-btc-xmr.html#3m

blocksize:
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/size-btc-xmr.html#alltime

https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/1f90427dc509f688d750d255d92b72f31f9bd43b8d097617e5418697e49f98a7.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/4546e4e58976e70d252c1a1dec4e86a1de8d0ddbb577227e85ff069b94a0a277.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/80fbb7770109c61e10775484e031bfed633b94e7883c562df5e7e4d6aba2899a.jpg


The same way it's none of anyones business what me and someone else are talking about, it is none of their business who I'm talking to. That's why I would prefer to hide the social graph.

About assigning ID vs ID to a connection...you can use one-time connection IDs similar to stealth addresses on Monero iirc

I get your point about the risk of talking to people you don't know IRL and compromised channels. But they still wouldn't be able to know who else you are talking to, or you want to use it to talk to people you know IRL, it still matters.


For sure SimpleX seems to be the best choice for hiding the social graph

Correct me if I'm wrong though, but doesn't "Sealed Sender" + hashed contacts hide who messages come from to Signal? And isn't encryption done client-side?

https://www.signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/
https://www.signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/


Agree, you're right, I spend Monero directly where I can for what I can that's what I meant. But everyday expenses are trickier. That's why I like cash, proxy purchases (like Monezon & Anonshop), virtual debits, and gift cards to fill the gaps. But it is not ideal for sure.

Scroll to [⭐"WHERE CAN I SPEND MONERO?"] section for some ideas. Let me know if there are others I am missing.

https://pb.envs.net/?8c6e45d76a233681#GRCjqnVXPVMqzbZB9xjMAMTaMCrNGNRF5pYCKojtffjm


1. That's not what I meant, but I can see how I phrased it why you would. Any additional transactions every ten minutes indefinitely*
2. Ok, then what is the advantage Bitcoin offers?
3. What is the difference from a Monero user trusting their node to "validate" blocks VS Bitcoiner doing it?
4. While true in theory, in practice, virtually zero Bitcoiners take advantage of it's transparency to audit 1 billion+ transactions and any additional transactions every ten minutes.

So where is the advantage? You CAN audit, but DONT. You just leave a node running and pay no mind


*if you don't mind increasing the chances of getting caught

agree


No great ways to do that with Monero directly that I know of since LocalMonero shutdown. Hoping Haveno will become the new place to do that when it drops and it should be much harder to stop just like Bisq.

Realistically right now you can do cash via mail for BTC/LTC with HodlHodl or LocalCoinSwap I think. Then you can swap it for Monero.

You can also try Bisq and Robosats maybe, but they usually have very little to no cash-by-mail offers last time I checked.


I'm saying if one will only ever use it in a "law-abiding", "rule-following" way then I can't see why you would want to use Bitcoin. Maybe temporarily as a glorified NGU stock that you only hold? While you still can that is, before it is taxed to hell and the regulators become more entrenched.

But digital fiat is much better for staying within the lines as far as transactions go.


While I agree with the moral sentiment it is impossible to have the order you propose by definition...if "Permissionless" is subservient to "Legal" or "Ethical"...then it isn't permissionless

It's just a tool, it is neutral, it can be used for good or bad like anything else in life. That is all on the person using it.


100% agree that is why I don't depend on them. I usually spend my Monero directly.


Falo inglês e estou a usar um tradutor, por isso avisem-me se algo não fizer sentido.

Seria demasiado longo para analisar um podcast de uma hora. Talvez pudesses resumir especificamente onde achas que a privacidade falhou ou onde eles afirmam que falha?

Presumo que a crítica gira em torno das assinaturas de anel que são utilizadores para a privacidade do remetente. Apesar de haver uma maior probabilidade de descobrir o remetente, continua a não ser determinístico. É probabilístico. Mas nada disso tem relevância ou afecta a privacidade do montante ou a privacidade do destinatário  ("Confidential Transactions" e "Stealth Adddresses").

O Monero não tem montantes ou endereços visíveis na sua cadeia de blocos.

Podes experimentar por ti próprio. Diz-me se consegues encontrar quaisquer montantes ou endereços com que eu tenha negociado, pesquisando em qualquer explorador de blockchain Monero:

83ic4pgvAcFfhdqzTE5GpME4QkEmZa9kKWf72Z1ARe2oPeFZLiuFwXa616ht3JqBmteb9BUVssVh87AB3owceW8vAPKRraE

https://www.p2pool.io/explorer/

https://www.exploremonero.com/blocks

https://localmonero.co/blocks/


"The “Mind Your Business” coin, also known as the Fugio Cent, was the first official coin in circulation in the United States, designed by Benjamin Franklin in 1787"

He would've loved Monero 👌

https://image.nostr.build/a1ae98f0cdb86c75f5634ce3364dcc8846ddec5361dd576c79b2407ce58c9d74.jpg


MoE comes before SoV according to the Mises/Menger

Not that I care about the theoretical, but the SoV > MoE crowd are "austrian econ" fanbois as well. That's why I brought up Mises/Menger. If you're not, then yea this won't be persuasive. But in that case, I'm curious where are you getting the idea that SoV comes before MoE from?


🧐🤔

https://image.nostr.build/5d630caa0191bf392e9e7122a0ebdd0dd5b968e796af4d932034676556ed80f9.jpg


https://image.nostr.build/3d7a8b836098ef9b09f31bf7510fe0ca0fa8859b5f8b263dceeb42dfb2a497c8.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/ccf181ed168942446d16535fa01942fcb9f471b7b689c9d9f8d12839df0b629c.jpg


Looks cool, but doesn't seem user-friendly if I'm understanding correctly. Any privacy leaks/trade-offs in doing this?


I've tried Cakes giftcards and virtual debits several times. They work fine everywhere I've used them 👌

coincards.com is another good option


🧡

https://image.nostr.build/7b931a8637b1c7a58b938e3f5aabf8b2ea1c889c173d60ee9f223d1464b44aa6.jpg


Do you audit all 1 billion+ transactions and every ten minutes yourself? Or are you just running and trusting your node to do it for you the same as any Monero node runner?


Utilitarian arguments would justify any atrocity in history. Your fear or lack of imagination on how to solve a problem doesn't magically mean you now get to initiate aggression on peaceful people.

It has nothing to do with living alone. The social thread we are chatting on is a VOLUNTARY collective. Nostr isn't claiming I elected them as my representative when I didn't, saying we owe them money, setting rules, and sending armed goons to my home to throw me in a cage or kill me if I resist.


Words on paper have never stopped anyone, neither citizens nor the parasite class. If someone really wants something they'll get it. If someone wants to do something they'll do it. If you like the illusion of safety it offers, okay.

You break several obscure laws a day and probably don't even realize it

I wish you well, but you obviously do not understand the point of Bitcoin. Either it is permissionless or it is not. If it is not, there is no reason for it's existence


Ignore the Libbitcoin stuff. I linked to it so you could understand the Permissionless Principle

Voskuil and Taaki are both great


If they weren't sure what was going on they shouldn't have acted like they did and been coercing people. They get zero sympathy from me.

They should all step down and be ostracized from society for the rest of their lives at the very least. Imagine making mistakes of that magnitude at your job? Immediately fired


Ooof. This logic is so absurd I'm at a loss for words. "If they are our representatives then why would they stop our freedom"...You must have missed the last century. Governments are not benign. They are not your mom, dad, or family. They are strangers that use violence against peaceful people to get what they want. You wouldn't put up with a stranger doing this to you or your loved ones. You should realize there is no principle difference.

There are so many layers and schools of thought we would have to peel back before we can even have the discussion at hand that I'm not even sure this is fruitful. You exist in another world. I suggest reading the white paper and figuring out the main value prop of Bitcoin (permissionless transactions). The point of decentralization is so the network remains unstoppable no matter what any government or entity wants

Have you been keeping up with current events? In the last two weeks there has been crackdowns on Samourai, Wasabi shutdown, Phoenix fled the USA, TornadoCash case escalated by DOJ, and the FBI subtley threatened it's citizens about using no-KYC tools. All in a couple weeks.

Bitcoin may be neutral and non-political, but it is more conducive to political philosophies that emphasize the individual since it empowers the individual.


Em que sentido?


DM me


Whats your Monero address? How much did you need?


You don't have to. But then it begs the question: Why are you using Bitcoin? You aren't using Bitcoin without permission, so what is the benefit of using it?

And what if tomorrow your government passes a law declaring it illegal to leave the country with your Bitcoin? or that you must give it to one of their "approved custodian"? How about Bitcoiners living in North Korea? What is left is to comply or do something illegal (but not immoral)

I think you fail to see the contradiction. If you can't do something because an intermediary is stopping you from doing it (a government is an intermediary) then you are not using it without permission and it doesn't help you. It is a shittier version of fiat at that point.

If you only use Bitcoin under certain conditions that your government is allowing you to, or under some strangling regulations, then there is little to no reason for you to use Bitcoin. Digital fiat money is much more compliant and follows all their laws. But just keep in mind that you can't comply your way out of tyranny.

If the political process and public policy worked we wouldn't need a Bitcoin to begin with

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


You might be right. I guess we'll find out.


Many Nostr users know that the Signal protocol is a very secure end-to-end encryption protocol, recommended by Snowden. However, many people do not know why the Signal protocol is secure. In fact, the design of the Signal protocol has a historical basis and is very intuitive and simple.

End-to-end encryption protocols have gone through three key stages: the PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) protocol of the 1990s, the OTR (Off The Record) protocol of the 2000s, and the Signal protocol of the 201x.

PGP achieved end-to-end encryption through public key encryption. But if a private key leaks, all [past and future] messages can be decrypted. No [forward secrecy] and [backward secrecy].

[[In the PGP protocol, the identity key and the encryption key are the same; it serves as both the identity and is used to encrypt messages.]] [[As an identity key, it is a long-term key, and the longer it is used, the greater the likelihood of private key exposure.]]

The OTR protocol solves the problem of PGP. Its approach is simple: [[it separate the identity key from the encryption key and generates a unique encryption key for each conversation, which is deleted after use.]]

The Signal protocol inherited ideas from the OTR protocol. It mainly consists of two parts: the X3DH protocol, which is responsible for the initial key agreement, and the Double Ratchet Algorithm, which is responsible for deriving encryption keys. [[The Signal protocol derives a new encryption key for each message, which is deleted after use.]] It achieved better forward and backward secrecy.

BTW, the Signal protocol is not equivalent to the Signal app. WhatsApp also uses the Signal protocol for end-to-end encryption. The Signal protocol is only responsible for the end-to-end encryption of messages, meaning only the communicating parties can decrypt the content, not even the server administrators.


Don't follow fake gov accounts, it's a psyop. Instead, follow the paid influencers who push you to custodial wallets with KYC.


Please visit a Federal Reserve branch near you and surrender your rogue money. Now!
 https://image.nostr.build/b420d1140d5bc3b2a7bec5e656324979bf986ceb531427e90a181dfda9073b9d.jpg


:kekw:


Using Monero as the base pair for Haveno means strong privacy and much cheaper fees (fractions of a cent to cents at most).

I think ETH, BCH, LTC, and more should all be included and let the market decide what they want to trade

I like what Robosats is doing but wish it's market wasn't always so sparse. Not sure why that is.

Yea, Haveno has taken forever to drop...


LocalMonero ceases operations amid declining privacy service landscape. #Monero #PrivacyCoins https://cointelegraph.com/news/local-monero-exchange-shuts-down-crypto-privacy-services-dwindle


bitcoin needs to get inspired more by monero and less by shit saylorfuck says


There are many things that are scarce that don't have a hard cap on supply. Gold for example.

Bitcoin is also not a unit of account or the most saleable good (neither is Monero or any other crypto)

A requirement of money that Bitcoin doesn't have (or weakly has) is fungibility (uniformity, indistinguishable), but doubt we are ever going to see eye to eye on that. Yes, I know lightning in isolation is fungible, or can be, but Bitcoin as a whole is not.

"You don't ask nicely that everyone else not spend your coins; You just protect them using a cryptographic key.
Similarly, you don't ask nicely everyone else not distinguish your monetary units; You just make them *technically* indistinguishable AKA fungible." -binaryFate


Bad example. Look how terrible the internet is for privacy.


Yes, lack of/weak fungibility has disadvantages. Argue that the advantages are worth it if you want.


"has the privacy stink on it and will never be accepted anywhere as legitimate cash."

Which one is it? Does privacy have a "stink" on it or is cash legitimate? Can't be both


Haveno will likely be out sometime this year, but yes, atm I don't think there is any


Not sure how it being food and other essentials makes it any less relevant. It was still black market. It was not just those things either. It was music, clothes, tools, parts, and much more. Basically anything that had demand.

Maybe, but in that case Bitcoin would be even more useless because it is much easier to spy on

They can't even keep drugs, phones, etc from entering prisons - the most locked down, surveilled, and controlled populations on the planet. I think we'll be ok...


Correct. Being illegal never stopped anyone who wanted drugs or anything else.

Black markets absolutely thrive under that kind of environment. Black markets under iron fisted rule of communist nations, that had the harshest of punishments, are some of the most prolific and well known in history. Yes, let's not hope it gets to that point, but it would make black markets more, not less, popular.


Although better privacy than on chain Lightning privacy is not as robust as Monero. When you open/close and receive it is particularly bad. This all assumes you are running your own LN node, otherwise you have no/little privacy from custodians or LSPs.

Lightning is also not very good for moving larger sums. You'll likely run into routing failures. I'm sure you already know all these things though.


1. You can only use the cap argument for so long to justify a network that barely functions under any load. Gold has been mined for thousands of years. What matters is that issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW
2. Don't get into Monero for the purposes of degenerate gambling. It's p2p digital cash. Use it to transact. It's not an investment or stock. No promises were made to make you rich.

https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/1f90427dc509f688d750d255d92b72f31f9bd43b8d097617e5418697e49f98a7.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/4546e4e58976e70d252c1a1dec4e86a1de8d0ddbb577227e85ff069b94a0a277.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/80fbb7770109c61e10775484e031bfed633b94e7883c562df5e7e4d6aba2899a.jpg


I never said a word about mass adoption...

I agree with you though about your last part. Ironically the better things are the less need there is for crypto. The harder the state squeezes the more transactions spill over to black markets and truly permissionless crypto.


Sure, is that why you are hiding behind a nym? 🤔

You don't fight toe to toe with a stronger enemy. You find asymmetric advantages. Guerilla fighters have known this forever.


#monero should be banned. who needs #privacy anyway. https://banmonero.com/


What's already illegal?

Bitcoin, Monero, crypto are ultimately black market money. Those are the only markets that are permissionless. If you are going to follow all laws for a transaction, there is no advantage they bring over fiat in the white market. And if there is any remnant advantage remaining, it will fade with time as regulation increases on crypto.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


No ETA yet, but the first validators are already going online. I'm guessing sometime this year.

Latest podcast about it with all the details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2cbNgpOgEY


Not sure that is entirely true. You can migrate over to an aggregation method similar to MimbleWimble in the future if it ever starts becoming a problem. Consumer tech is not static either, it is constantly getting better, faster, and cheaper.

There is also advantages that come with it. You also gain strong default privacy and anonymity without giving up sovereignty for it along with higher fungibility.

Yes, but removing that info means it isn't a full node, and that is such a central argument from BTC maxis, that we need to keep everything small so everyone can run a full node.

Taproot is actually worse for privacy in certain respects because it makes you stand out from other "normal" transactions. It also enables more junk onchain NFTs on chain by making it cheaper to do.


What does it matter if the end result is neither of them being able to scale?

At least with Monero we are more able to adapt to more efficient methods when available and necessary (i.e. Bulletproofs upgrade which reduced tx size by ~80%) or entirely new protocols completely (upcoming Seraphis overhaul)


No one is getting triggered. I'm just telling you inconvenient facts you might not like.


Then why is it rising by every other metric I've shown?

Maybe you are right degenerate gamblers and speculators are the only ones that don't like it. It's clear that those who actually use it are adopting it.


Not sure what you are talking about. Gold has inflation and it has been that way for thousands of years and it is much larger mcap and more trusted with value than Bitcoin.

Even Bitcoin has inflation right now.

Using xmrbtc price charts is only a single metric and is price discovery in action. Here are a few examples that show the market choosing Monero over time:

https://image.nostr.build/975326fdc046527477af1c338f959485e7ff210e5ebd7129dd115c28131f1fa6.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/1f90427dc509f688d750d255d92b72f31f9bd43b8d097617e5418697e49f98a7.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/4546e4e58976e70d252c1a1dec4e86a1de8d0ddbb577227e85ff069b94a0a277.jpg
https://image.nostr.build/80fbb7770109c61e10775484e031bfed633b94e7883c562df5e7e4d6aba2899a.jpg


But you can't say USD issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW (the actual problems with money printing) Huge difference

Its almost identical to mining precious metals

Thinking Moneros supply is "infinite" also implies you think Monero will be around forever. Meant to disparage but is also a weird compliment.


I mean, can't I ask the same thing about Bitcoin? If it was all good we wouldn't need a Bitcoin to begin with... if we're going to build things in an adversarial manner let's not stop halfway

And to do that we need private and anonymous transactions


This is just flat wrong. Monero inflation is a constant number not a % of supply

Meaning in % terms it is always falling closer and closer to 0%


As much as I REALLY like BTC, I must to say that Monero resonates more with me and my ideals.

What about you?

nostr:nevent1qqsg22pu7k97f5gpguc72x729f3errauthh6g0acdt47j7y34ju998cpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzvupzpvfnhlzhhmtpcwgaf68e2wusd3l3wzwy8rv3ca0mdkhhj3ya27yaqvzqqqqqqyndhjp5


Bitcoin and Lightning don't scale either

So why do you use them?


Yea, bro, Monero is constantly being delisted from every major exchange, while Bitcoin is setting pretty on every single one plus a new Blackrock ETF...but Bitcoin is the only one under attack

Please 🙄

Don't act like a victim plenty of Bitcoiners are constantly putting down other crypto. Have you been living under a rock?


Yea, that should work to anonymize your BTC (though you are technically no longer private). If you wait before swapping back (hours to days at least), and don't swap back all in the same amount at random times, with different peers/exchanges, using different IPs with a VPN/proxy/Tor you should be good...

Most new to XMR or privacy might think naively swapping to XMR then immediately back helps them, but it doesn't, takes more consideration. That is why I just simply said what I did.


Then don't use Monero to save. Use it to transact. You already do this with fiat.

Network effect isn't some immutable law of the universe. Dominant brands and technologies die off in the market all the time. Ask Kodak and tape cassettes.
Monero is already proving that theory wrong in DNMs.

Monero and Bitcoin have roughly the same amount of nodes. You can't directly compare hash power because they use different PoW algos.

*unpredictable* inflation and centralized issuance leads to distortions in the economy. Monero is predictable, decentralized, and even smaller inflation than gold.

https://bitnodes.io/
https://monero.fail/map


There is no way for an outside observer looking at the chain to know that Bitcoin you sent from address A to address B was a Monero swap

As for the at scale part, check out SeraiDEX and Haveno. Both are going to be launched sometimes this year.


If you want very strong transactional privacy without giving up sovereignty

No amounts or addresses are visible on Moneros blockchain

If you are coming from the Bitcoin camp no need to go back and forth. Doing that would also be worse for your privacy. Just keep a small stash of Monero that you spend from and top up every once in awhile. The size of stash depends on how often you use it.


Don't say that it might short circuit his one brain cell


"The market is always right, except when it is inconvenient to my btc narrative, then the market is wrong"


Looking forward to SeraiDEX. Seems a better way to implement swaps anyway.


I think it would be fairly trivial to trace, so yes. You need to coinjoin or something before or after to obscure the transaction graph.


You also don't have to choose.

You can continue saving with Bitcoin and have a smaller stash of Monero you use for spending.


Big things around the corner for Monero... 👀

https://image.nostr.build/9adf187cf4a7e4131334a131015aa15be8083123f9acb1c2523887670f23fdf2.jpg

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1786742815571001717.html


>Most "Bitcoiners" dont use Bitcoin.
They use corporate, custodial, KYC, apps.

Oh shit we agree! 🥳


I'll gladly take any gold you have or anything else valuable that you own that has no "supply cap".

👌