No tools can make Bitcoin private, unless it hardforks, it's a transparent public blockchain. You can get some some psuedonymity via coinjoins, but all your transactions are still 100% visible.

A good analogy for coinjoins is walking around naked, but you have a bag over your head...no one knows who you are, but you're still naked and vulnerable


I always figured it was for Bitcoin only. Is Monero traded pretty often on it?


The value prop of Bitcoin/Monero is permissionless which is incompatible with white markets by definition...so yes, pretty much. Unless you can find clever ways to navigate.

If one is going to make transactions that follow the rules, there is little reason to have or use Bitcoin/Monero. In fact, it might even end up worse than just using fiat i.e. what you went/are going thru


Going forward and thinking rationally...how would they know you bought crypto in the first place if you use these methods? It's nearly impossible. Even though they would like you to believe it - they aren't omniscient. To even bring scrutiny your way *you literally had to tell them you bought crypto*

Like I said I'm not telling you what to do. If you don't feel comfortable, or want to lay low for awhile, dont do it. 100% understand. That shit sounds like a nightmare.


If you buy KYC-free and P2P no one should be able to know you bought crypto in the first place.

If you aren't already familiar - get comfortable using privacy tools. Use a good VPN like Mullvad or IVPN and/or Tor. Keep your real identity completely separate and don't mix them. Create an email specifically for these things with Proton or Tuta. Use email aliases and temporary emails where you can. Use burner numbers or no-kyc sms verification websites when they're needed to create accounts. Use encrypted messengers like Signal, SimpleX, Session, XMPP (OMEMO), or PGP to communicate.

#1:
Best way would probably be to withdraw physical cash and send cash-by-mail using LocalMonero, Bisq, HodlHodl. Or find crypto ATMs near you with little to no info required and buy using cash.

For a bit more convenience and speed you can use payment apps like Cashapp, Paypal, Zelle, etc on those sites above. There is no way for them to know you sent a payment for crypto unless you say that. You can make up a reason or simply leave the memo blank. If you just use common sense and avoid suspiciously large amounts, you won't draw any attention either...but I'm sure you want to be extra cautious after what happened and I don't blame you.

#2:
If you know friends/family/someone that already buys crypto off exchanges anyway, and doesn't plan on changing that, you can get them to act as your proxy. Ask them to buy you crypto and pay them for it for a slight premium to incentivize them. Ask them if you can buy something they're already planning to buy or pay bills for them in exchange for crypto.

#3:
Sell stuff for crypto locally, over Telegram groups, or on p2p markets:
https://t.me/bitcoinp2pmarketplace
https://t.me/moneromarket
https://moneromarket.io
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/markets/

Monerozon and PeerShop allow you to buy anons something on Amazon and get paid in Monero. You wont know the person or their address, they wont know who you are, and Amazon won't know you're getting paid in Monero. Fairly new though so not much traffic atm.

Last method I can think of is to freelance, work under the table, or do odd jobs and ask them to pay you in crypto.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things...
Check my profile for links and more info

I'm not telling you what to do this is just me thinking out loud. This is just how I would do it if I was in a similar situation.


Pretty much any major crypto can be used to swap into Monero

Almost impossible for any third party to know you swapped for Monero if you do it P2P. It just looks likes any other Bitcoin/crypto transaction to any outside observer looking at the blockchain. They have no idea you sent it for Monero.

Monero is not perfect, but it has built-in network level protection by default via Dandelion++ too. So even if you forget or don't use tor or a vpn you have another layer protecting your IP


This is an insane take. If adoption is more important than privacy/sovereignty just use fiat for super charged adoption.


In recent history nearly all 2020, first half of 2021, all of 2022

In 2022 alone you couldve up to ~2.5x your Bitcoin if you swapped to Monero early in that year and out later

Right now XMR/BTC is the lowest it has been since 2016...might want to swap a little from your gambling stack. Just saying.


I think all the bitcoin podcasts have gone to your head. There are months and even years where Monero outperforms Bitcoin. You're literally losing Bitcoin by just mindlessly hodling.


What don't you like about them specifically?


There is a NON-MICROSOFT alternative coming.
https://nostrgit.com/nostr-protocol/nostr


woke up to this from a friend.

be careful out there. anyone smarter than an 80iq pleb know whether graphene is hardened to this type of thing?

#grapheneos
#privacy
#security
#opsec

https://it.slashdot.org/story/24/02/29/0345247/github-besieged-by-millions-of-malicious-repositories-in-ongoing-attack


Damn, that is ridiculous


Versus fiat Monero is doing just fine. Not as well as Bitcoin, but a steady upward trend in price over the long run.

Ultimately SoV is speculation. The future is never 100% certain. If you think Bitcoins historical price trend will continue, just use Bitcoin to save long term, while having a small stack of Monero for spending (cheap, untraceable, anonymous, and private). How small that is depends how often you use it. If someone doesn't really transact with crypto, then I can understand why they might not have any use for Monero.


Did you buy with KYC? Just curious


Many "Bitcoiners" are just fiat maxis in denial, Guy


Buy any squeaky clean crypto, like Litecoin, from a big exchange and just swap to Monero using something like trocador.app, or the various DEXs and atomic swaps that are popping up

It's funny that the worst they could do was add one extra step for some users. You can also still get Monero directly with p2p exchanges.

https://image.nostr.build/bed09c7523ead8c5ba943a16bab07be7290f5f27b12d1ccdefacae224e56f505.jpg


Here you go fren:

https://pb.envs.net/?f3054a9360e2cb38#5UoqHSNrF346N4taq315nVdyf72N2ieZXP9T4NYjNUng


Scary


What happened?


Says the surveillance coiner 😂

Ops city central 👁


Almost all of these regularly release episodes, aside from Monero Matteo and Darknet Demystified, so not sure what you mean


Have fun staying public

*and unaffordable


nostr:note1n9v05w8apk43w9wuw8r0psyl6zzu092q0zr8r2kw7ul0zfvelfssavsl0a
https://nostrcheck.me/media/public/ec809cba7599dc5ee7c4d9f3e0d81c1a59d12b433fe8ca34dc6e0942a105287a.webp


New and improved (and now in dark mode 😎)

https://pb.envs.net/?55629d521bbdd807#3vFLhGNEoif8576KEdzKakryX3RoPB2iHdRbYxfxkV1g

nostr:note1u2fcd6lvk2regukqgqnca098vhcphfcv55qyr86uu5n57p7w6qaqxljhxh


Samesy


...at the cost of being custodial and reintroducing seigniorage.

It's funny you bring up censorship, yet advocate for ecash. Your ecash is useless if the mint refuses to exchange or verify spent tokens.

Anything that is actually a threat to the current financial system is going to bring regulatory burden and attacks on the white market. It doesn't matter if it's Bitcoin, Monero, or ecash. Monero is just the canary.


"Bitcoin was not forged in a vacuum. These works serve to contextualize Bitcoin into the broader story of cryptography and freedom." -Nakamoto Institute

"Digital Cash & Privacy" 1993 -Hal Finney
"The Case for Privacy" 2005 -David D. Friedman
"Credit With Privity" 1996 -Nick Szabo
"Confidential Auditing" 1998 -Nick Szabo
"Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" 1982 -David Chaum
"Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Dining Cryptographers Problem: Unconditional Sender and Recipient Untraceability" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" 1988 -Timothy C. May
"The Cyphernomicon" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"Proofs that Yield Nothing But Their Validity or All Languages in NP Have Zero-Knowledge Proof Systems" 1991 -Oded Goldreich, Silvio Micali, and Avi Wigderson
"Online Cash Checks" 1989 -David Chaum
"On Digital Cash-Like Payment Systems" 2005 -Daniel A. Nagy
"Secrecy, Authentication, and Public Key Systems" 1979 -Ralph C. Merkle

What do all these have in common? Heavy emphasis on privacy, untraceability, and anonymity.
No resemblance to the Bitcoin we know today.

https://nakamotoinstitute.org/literature/


You might be responsible for paying unrealized cap gains tax in the future if that ever becomes a thing. You could be legally required to give your Bitcoin to "approved custodians". If you "lost" it you could still potentially be on the hook for that or at least bring extra unwanted attention and scrutiny.

I'm thinking worst cases, but who knows? Maybe it won't ever get quite as bad as that, but I value the peace of mind of knowing that it isn't even on the table when you acquire without KYC.

Not even mentioning the possibility of $5 wrench attacks when the general public can potentially see how much Bitcoin you've purchased

https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md


The real price is whatever the market says it is when you're buying no-KYC. You get a discount in money/time for giving away your information by buying KYC like on Strike. This is how some see it and is the correct view imo.

Remember, it's not a question of 'if' that data will given to gov, leak, or get hacked. Only a matter of 'when'. These things happens all the time constantly if you keep up with these things.

You're free to throw the dice and take on that risk for cheaper and more convenient sats though. Entirely up to you if you think the reward is worth it.


Laundering money: The crime of keeping the money I worked for 😂


All else fails you can just buy another crypto, like Litecoin, and swap to get Monero, but here are other options

https://paste.sethforprivacy.com/?6079a7eabf628225#6KCZHfZEyJu6TkU4Rq2YdTM6bKYYS3nG3GaWEVvbJgVf


Depends how long that takes to become possible. Just because it can be broken at some point down the line doesn't mean it will immediately be a trivial thing to do.

If they can break Moneros encryption in the distant future those users will be long gone and current users will already be on better tech so who cares 🤷♂https://m.primal.net/Heys.jpg

You're telling me it will be possible to break encryption, but it's just too darn difficult for large LN nodes and spooks to actively save that data to break later? Please. 99.9% of custodial and LSP LN users would be in the same boat.


Didn't know I could 😅


The 1% was rhetorical but it is not far off. Even if 5% are sovereign LN users, not all of them are adhering to best LN privacy practices.

Count custodial LN wallet downloads. Count non-custodial wallet downloads that require LSPs to use. Now compare them vs non-custodial wallets where you can optionally use your own LN node or must use your own LN node. Very easy for you to do, but I can go do it right now and give you up-to-date stats if you want.

Look no further than everyone using custodial addresses on Nostr to give you another broad view of custodial LN adoption 💜


What is this encrypted file sharing?


My point is that nations dont even have to coordinate for each one to have their own self-serving unique set of laws that are bad for Bitcoin miners.

I think you're over estimating how big our bubble is. The masses really don't care about Bitcoin. And if they own any, they see it more like stocks they keep on an exchange so they have zero impact on TradFi.
Politicians can just pretend to be pro-bitcoin and do the opposite in office like they always do.
Even if politicians, businesses, and countries own Bitcoin, they can makes rules "for thee and not for me" just like they do now with everything. They can outlaw transactions on the white market without approved custodians and/or make it a nightmare to be compliant and legal.

They're not going to start playing fair with laws just because they own Bitcoin. Any transactions under white markets means you are following rules and asking permission.
This is why all that is really relevant long term is black market adoption (permissionless markets).

I think the strongest argument you have is that now theyre forced to make their taxation more overt for anyone self custodying Bitcoin. They can't hide it behind inflation where people don't "see and feel" it. I agree with you on that.

I do kind of keep up with these privacy projects. But they are not fully private (LN, Liquid), missing the sovereignty of onchain txs (ecash, Liquid), no one uses them, or are just pure vaporware.

I think the things with the most promise are coming from people like Paul Sztorc(DriveChains), PolyD(Enigma), and Moonsettler(DarkPools) using. Maybe the ZK stuff too.


"Why Monero?"
"How do I get Monero?"
"What wallets should I use?"
"Where can I use Monero?"

If you've ever had any of these questions or are a Bitcoin maxi that is Monero-curious, but want to keep it on the down low don't worry - I got you 🤝

No one needs to know
Not even me 🤫 👇

https://paste.sethforprivacy.com/?6079a7eabf628225#6KCZHfZEyJu6TkU4Rq2YdTM6bKYYS3nG3GaWEVvbJgVf


Satoshi understood that being a permissionless medium-of-exchange was Bitcoins central innovation. Not SoV speculation.

"Until now, no scarce commodity that can be traded over a communications channel without a trusted third party has been available. If there is a desire to take up a form of money that can be traded over the Internet without a TTP, then now that is possible."

https://mmalmi.github.io/satoshi/


Satoshi on Bitcoins lack of anonymity:

"I think we should de-emphasize the anonymous angle...It's possible to be pseudonymous, but you have to be careful.  If someone digs through the transaction history and starts exposing information people thought was anonymous"

https://mmalmi.github.io/satoshi/


Satoshi was a multi-coin future, altcoin-swap maxi. Could the Bitcoin+Monero crowd be right? 🤔:

"It would be easy for customers to go bitcoin->LR->cash, bitcoin->LR->gold, bitcoin->LR->paypal or maybe they just want to save the money, then just bitcoin->LR"

https://mmalmi.github.io/satoshi/


Satoshi on L1 scalability:

"I look at the existing credit card network...It's about 15 million tx per day for the entire e-commerce load of the Internet worldwide. At 1KB per transaction, that would be 15GB of bandwidth for each block generating node per day, or about two DVD movies worth. Seems do-able even with today's technology."

https://mmalmi.github.io/satoshi/


Satoshi on SoV:

"Even so, I'm uncomfortable with explicitly saying "consider it an investment". That's a dangerous thing to say..."

https://mmalmi.github.io/satoshi/


It's issuance *can* be audited because new Monero that is mined is briefly transparent as it enters so you can literally count them.

Did you mean you can't *manually* audit it's circulating supply?
You say this is an advantage, but in practice do you ever do it? How often have you manually audited Bitcoins circulating supply? I'm guessing never. Running a node is not the same thing. You're just relying on a node to do it all for you just like any Monero user would.

But for what it's worth even Peter Todd, famous Bitcoin developer, doesn't consider Monero inflationary:
"Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary"
https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary

"Monero has chosen to implement what they call tail emission...a fixed block reward does not lead to an abundant supply. In fact, due to the inevitability of lost coins, a fixed reward converges to a stable monetary supply that is neither inflationary nor deflationary."

As for the dollar comparison. Major differences. Fiat issuance is centralized, unpredictable, and massive in comparison. All opposite of Monero.


Great list! I listen to most of these! Wanted to add a few more if you don't mind...

-Monero Magazine
-The Monero Matteo Podcast

Monero "adjacent" podcasts/channels (Topic of Monero, crypto, and privacy come up often):

-The Watchman Privacy Podcast w/ Gabriel Custodiet
-The Crypto Vigilante Podcast w/ Rafael LaVerde
-The Dollar Vigilante Podcast w/ Jeff Berwick
-Option Plus Podcast w/ Juraj Bednar
-Darknet Demystified w/ Sam Bent
-Chris Blec Conversations
-Mental Outlaw (youtube)
-The Hated One (youtube)
-StackCast (youtube) - creators of Stack Wallet
-Naomi Brockwell (youtube)


Too bad any strong privacy that LN might offer doesn't apply to most LN users.
90%+ are on custodial wallets or use LSPs that can see everything.

That is great that 1% of LN users running and using their own nodes, and avoiding all LN privacy caveats perfectly, can be sort of private though


In both absolute and proportional terms there is definitely ***MUCH LESS*** Monero on exchanges globally than Bitcoin. So of course there is much less custodial Monero. Especially now after the Binance delisting which was the largest exchange *BY FAR*

Is there a single exchange that supports Monero, but not Bitcoin? But throw a stone and you'll hit an exchange that does the reverse


Conversations > Signal > WhatsApp

Disposable VM's and alias for any monomedia (YT, X, Insta, FB, etc.)

Nostr or self host website for publications. Iceland is good VPS/proxy. Netherlands, Swiss, etc in theory also good, but highly questionable due to 14eyes colab.

Use cash or monero as much as possible. Everywhere, always.

Use least amount of tech (crucial). Avoid Bluetooth / WiFi devices (triangulation).

Disposable SIM, rotate ~ yearly

Use hardened OS, Graphene / Lineage. Tails, whonix / Qubes (advanced). Only use FOSS and segment / containerize according to threat level.

It's pretty much already almost impossible to not be tracked, participate in local initiative to resist Orwellian surveillance. Best thing to do is hold government accountable and change things around - or become grid independent for food, fiat & utilities and watch Rome burn.

May the good have mercy on us.


#XMR #Monero

https://media.rcsocial.net/media_attachments/files/111/983/128/197/831/559/original/232a4f43a737b858.png


Correct

If you're going to make government approved transactions (white market) and follow all the rules, there is no reason to use Bitcoin. Just use fiat for that.

If you're going to make transactions that disobey those rules you are now in black market territory so just use Monero

All the fence-riding, pussy-footing between white/black market is cognitive dissonance and pure copium


They don't have to coordinate.

Nations can have their own self-serving regulations and laws that choke out Bitcoin mining making it a great burden to do (economically and legally). They could also force all miners in their jurisdiction to censor certain transactions. As fee pressure rises on censored transactions you *might* be able to get other miners in a different country to mine it, but it's going to cost you a lot of money and confirmation time so it won't be an everyday thing that most people do.

If Bitcoin was private and anonymous you couldn't pick out and censor individual transactions because they all would look the same. Anyone attacking the network would be forced to indefinitely censor the *entire* network to stop a few transactions, which is much costlier and harder to do all things equal.

CPU mining is relatively easier to attack, but easier to spin up more CPUs to push back against an attack once it is in progress
ASIC mining is relatively harder to attack, but harder to spin up more ASICs to push back against an attack once it is in progress


Monero is king of the whole space. Delisting barely fcuked with it. Usage but he’s usage.


Ok, let me wait another 15 years 💀


Maybe you are right. I'm not sure of the details. I just remember reading about it a year or two ago and nothing since then. Similar to the Monero wallet integration. Nothing ever came of it


Lightning is an incomplete privacy mess.

So many caveats even if you are the 1% of LN users that run their own node and don't use custodial wallets or LSPs (that can see almost everything)


Sounds practical. Sent you some ecash 🤫


Ecash offers great privacy, but it is custodial and rehypothecatable, so it isn't really a replacement for Monero. It raises the bar for custodial solutions though.


nostr:npub1t5eg5nx2x52jn8vvel0u42nxdqrvku9y645hdcp6zksd6f4ptdgq5unx96 the only safe way for controversial organizations to accept donations is using #Monero. Using anything else is grossly irresponsible and will endanger donors.


Molly was working on creating their own servers and giving others the ability to host their own iirc

Would be pretty cool if that was ever achieved. Not sure what ever happened with that...


Monero would have just as cheap transactions as it does now even if it had Bitcoins usage. It has dynamic blocks. Fee pressure would come back down as blocks adjusted to accommodate more use.

Bitcoin can't do that because it has a fixed blocksize. More adoption = higher average fees that grow and don't come back down. Lightning doesn't scale. To onboard the world to LN you would need something like 130 megabyte blocks. You should look into a real solution like MimbleWimble that actually scales (and offers pretty strong privacy). Litecoin already did all the R&D.

Yea, miners in China could do that because regulations were lax and its still relatively early. We already see them moving to clamp down on all crypto in the west. The eventual outcome is that regulations will just increase in every country until there is nowhere to run. Miners will just pick what they think is the lesser devil, but overall it will still be worse than it is now.

What will you do when they outlaw self-custody? Or ban it from being used in their markets? (or make the regulatory burden so great it handicaps the use there)
All that is left is black and gray market money. A place where Bitcoin is rapidly losing ground and wont catch up unless something changes soon.


Really good privacy.
But what about when you want your privacy non-custodial and non-rehypothecatable?


So a crypto ransomware operator was taken down. What does that have to do with Monero? They mention it briefly in passing, but the article almost has nothing to do with Monero. It doesn't even go into the details of how they were caught


Depends on how you do the BTC>XMR>BTC swaps.
Naively doing it thru any kind of CEX is not a good idea because they'll see both sides of the swap.

Best way would be doing it P2P with different trading partners thru something like Bisq or an atomic swap like UnstoppableSwap, BasicSwapDex, or Samourai's implementation

But if you must use a CEX there are better ways to do it (obviously this should be one without KYC):
1) Do the first swap using Exchange 'A'. Do the second swap using Exchange 'B'. This way no exchange has the full picture.
2) Wait at least a day to swap back. But the longer you wait the better.
3) Don't swap it all back in one go. Break it up into a few chunks. Don't consolidate after.
4) Do this all behind Tor or at least a solid VPN like Mullvad or IVPN. Change your tor identity or VPN server for each swap.

https://kycnot.me/?t=exchange


Looks awesome, when is this dropping?


I think Gupax might be easier and allows you to connect to your own node

https://github.com/hinto-janai/gupax


Check out Obtainium and get any app directly from source

https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium


Why privacy in quotes? Amounts and addresses are completely hidden on Monero. Even with coinjoins, Bitcoin is not private in any true sense. Everything is visible no matter what you do.


Librewolf is one of the best for desktop. The only browser that is better is Mullvad.
https://privacytests.org/

Cromite is better for privacy than Vanadium at the moment. Even Graphene tells us Vanadium is geared toward security, not privacy.
https://github.com/uazo/cromite


You've confirmed for yourself that almost 1 billion transactions are all valid and all inputs/outputs cancel out? Wow you're fast

You do this every ten minutes too?? You must never get any sleep bro, crazy!

...or maybe you simply rely on your Bitcoin node to do this and do absolutely nothing different from any Monero user running a node


I see


reminder that Bitcoin is not a private and anonymous currency, and you should use Monero instead!


You don't have to save long term in Monero to spend/receive in Monero

You're confusing anonymity with privacy. Both are important. Coinjoins don't make your transactions private because they aren't hiding amounts or connections. The whole world can still see. You also don't even really get anonymity, just a weaker form of it by way of pseudonymity. Even putting aside the tedium, expense, and time investment of coinjoining - you still end up with weaker "privacy". You're much more vulnerable to mistakes and chain analysis.


nostr:npub1uyj8kkqtcs20wj00t5drdwhqq8zfp0vhlsfnxuxgdr2ay7sd7vpsctlx7k you know your money has failed when you have to time transfers 🤦♂
Monero, works all the time, every time

https://cdn.masto.host/liberdon/media_attachments/files/111/955/170/792/421/389/original/a90e6234e6dc5a1b.png


Unfollow yourself. Apparently you don't value privacy either.

https://m.primal.net/Hdkp.jpg


How do you audit Bitcoin?


btw search the word "save" thru my posts using nostr.band or something and you'll see that is literally all I say. Variations of "save in bitcoin, spend in monero"


You can frame it that way if you want. It's all fair criticism to me. What's wrong with pointing these things out if they're true or debatable? Should I join every other maxi and pretend it is perfect and destined to succeed? There is enough of those people already we don't need more.

Bitcoin maxis constantly criticize other crypto and at a much wider scale than I do (some more valid than others)

In such a Bitcoin centric echo chamber like Nostr, it probably does make me stand out. Maybe it upsets some maxis (not saying you). That's ok with me.


XMR <-> Fiat would be dope


You're such a blow hard.

Monero is more cypherpunk than all shitcoins combined - including Bitcoin. It's here to stay. Deal with it.


You can't send cash digitally, hence the phrase p2p digital cash

Many other problems with cash


"Why not shill monero as a better solution for "private spending" alongside a #Bitcoin hodl stash?"

That's literally all I do lol
Yes, spend with Monero, and if you speculate Bitcoin will continue to outperform everything, save in Bitcoin

trocador.app is probably the easiest/quickest (Uses CEXs, but no-KYC)

P2P Platforms:
https://agoradesk.com/
https://hodlhodl.com

DEXs:
https://bisq.network/
https://learn.robosats.com/

Atomic Swaps:
https://unstoppableswap.net/
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases
https://basicswapdex.com/


I'm not aware of, or can't remember, any articles specifically about this new mempool.space feature. I think the feature has been available for several months though


Appreciate the conversation, fren


Other coins and fiat lacking privacy/anonymity has nothing to do with Monero. But yes, you can mine Monero if you want.

A p2p coin swap to Monero with another crypto just looks like address1 sent to address2 on the other coin. Third party correlation between both chains is not possible since you can't see amounts and addresses on Monero. So no one knows that a swap even took place. While with Bitcoin it is possible and fairly trivial. The person you swap with can also peek into your full or partial balance. Also not possible with Monero.

You can also get Monero by mailing physical cash p2p which is private and anonymous.
No third party knows you received Monero at all. That is not true for Bitcoin and most other cryptos where everyone in the world can see the blockchain.

The supply discussion is a separate argument. Pedersen commitments guarantees supply, and the first time a coin is mined the amount is briefly transparent as it enters into circulating supply (so you can manually count if you want to). But if this still worries you, continue saving long term with Bitcoin, and only use Monero to spend/receive where possible.


Agree, there is a lot of overlap.
If you had privacy the $5 wrench attack wouldn't be likely or even possible in the first place (if they didn't know how much you owned, how much was spent/received, and that you even spent/received crypto to begin with)

The consequences of lack-of-fungibility are separate from the state. Even if there is some future where the state no longer exists, miners can still censor individual transactions for economic or ideological reasons. Look at Luke Dash Jr attempts (failed) being made with ordinal and BIP47 filters. If his mining pool were larger, or larger pools agreed with them, it would be successful. That has nothing to do with the state.

People judge and act on their beliefs. That will continue to exist with or without a state.
Surveillance will still be possible without a state.
Let's make it very difficult/impossible for that to be done with money.

There are also economic reasons why even without a state fungibility is desirable. Making every coin uniform and identical to any other removes friction (no unique histories and taint to consider)

Thanks for the conversation


All depends. First step is always running your own lightning node (which the vast majority don't do). But even after that there are a lot of caveats. Here are a few links with the technical details:

bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy

https://abytesjourney.com/lightning-privacy/

https://github.com/lnbook/lnbook/blob/develop/16_security_privacy_ln.asciidoc#attacks-on-lightning

https://lightningprivacy.com/en/introduction

"We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability."
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf


Serendipitous example. Not good for fungibility that this is even possible. Also bad because miners are able to apply targeted censorship.

https://iris.to/note1tvlpadyxm8m6dcs93z9wus6npawh9flfyzrvuusq8q39y2naa7pqrh6du6


Mixing and coinjoins don't give you privacy. Nothing is hidden. All amounts and connections are still visible. It is merely ownership obfuscation. Pseudonymity - not even true anonymity.

Mixing and coinjoins don't make Bitcoin fungible. They do the opposite. You stand out. Coinjoins and mixing taint your coins and distinguish them from non-coinjoined coins. You bifurcate Bitcoin from within.

There are still plenty of reasons to want privacy even if government didn't exist:
-$5 wrench attacks
-Public knowledge of your spending habits
-Price discrimination
-Avoid targeted advertising and manipulation
-Business competitors seeing your financials and who you interact with

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/


People don't care about privacy and sovereignty in general until they're directly affected. Then they realize it's value. It's just human nature. Extrapolating from cryptoeconomics:

"...it is financially disadvantageous for people in a low threat environment."

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Threat-Level-Paradox


Lightning is non-existent on Darknet Markets for good reason. It isn't completely private.

Even if you run your own node and aren't on custodial wallets or LSPs like 95% of users (almost no privacy) - Receiver privacy is terrible, and hidden balances can be discovered by probing. Opening and closing channels also leaks data on chain.


Na, the Grin guys made it, but it is a good chart to visualize privacy leaks for those techs


Can you try to send me the youtube link to my DMs? For some reason it isn't loading and I can't click it


What did Amir say exactly and when did he say it? I would definitely be interested to read that


I've read that one and that article was the one that originally turned me off to MimbleWimble for a long time. But there was a counter article made here by the Grin guys. After giving it another chance and doing more research I became convinced. MW still not as private as ZkSnarks, but a lot more private than that article original suggested.

Here is the counter-article. You be the judge:

https://medium.com/grin-mimblewimble/factual-inaccuracies-of-breaking-mimblewimbles-privacy-model-8063371839b9


I listen to both their podcasts all the time! Raph and Jeff!


MimbleWimble is actually similar to Monero in the fact that both amounts and addresses are not visible at all. Even Fluffys project Tari uses MimbleWimble.

MimbleWimbles spend privacy is even worse than Monero though because they don't even have ring signatures. So you 100% know someone made a spend (but still not how much or to whom). But a good thing about MW is that if the data is not collected at the time the transaction occurs that data is gone forever.

DarkFi is definitely interesting I just don't know that much about it. I know Amir Taaki is involved and that it is merge mining with Monero now.

Here is a chart to visualize privacy leaks with different tech VS scalability:
MWCS = MimbleWimble + CoinSwap
CoinSwap is not implemented yet on any MW protocol afaik
https://m.primal.net/HVuP.png


Amir Taaki is awesome and both of your criticisms of moneros weak spot (spender privacy) is valid for sure. He is the one who partially spurred talk and action of improving it on Moneros github. Wish I could find the thread again


Yep, its true. Nothing is guaranteeing your tokens on ecash are fully backed by Bitcoin except pinky promises of the mint.


Yea that's fine do whatever you want.
I'm just responding to your earlier dismissive attitude of another freedom tech tool


Doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin isn't private.
Don't use Monero to save if you think that trend will continue.
Use it like cash.
Problem solved.


They're not judgements just simple facts.
No amount of market judgement will change those facts.


Yea, it's custodial and and mints can arbitrarily print tokens unbacked by Bitcoin. Congratulations for killing both of Bitcoins two major value props.


You can't have freedom without privacy. All the cypherpunks of Bitcoins origin knew that.


I think because there is very little overlap of users for both


I've always wanted a moka pot to compare ☕


The only thing that is a joke is Bitcoins lack of privacy


I'm something of a french press maxi myself


Ring signatures are *relatively* weaker compared to it's two other tech layers. They're vulnerable to targeted statistical attacks because it is only obfuscation - they're not hidden with encryption like amounts and receivers are.

But full-chain memberships proofs are coming with the next major upgrade "Seraphis" which will get rid of ring signatures completely and resolve this.

Keep in mind, in practice, there has never been any documented case of someone being prosecuted or discovered because ring signatures failed them. A weak point for sure, but not as dire right now as some make it seem. It's mostly theoretical or future points of worry.


Although I agree with you about sender privacy being relatively weaker than it's other tech - this is not completely true, Ven

Amounts and receivers on Monero *are* encrypted and completely hidden. They're not merely obfuscated.

The only thing obfuscated is spenders. So the most you could theoretically know is someone spent Monero. Not *how much* or to *whom* it was sent. Also, minor thing but, current decoys are at 15+1 real. Meaning after one hop from a transaction the chance of randomly guessing a spender is already less than a percent (~0.4%)

I definitely am looking forward to full-chain membership proofs to address this, but it is not as dire as it is sometimes made to seem at this moment in time


It's private, fungible, and very cheap to use. A better digital *cash*

Specifically, you cannot see amounts or receivers on the Moneros blockchain. Completely hidden using "Confidential Transactions" and "Stealth Addresses". IP address is also hidden by default using "Dandelion++"
Senders are obfuscated with "Ring Signatures" (15 decoys + real spender).

After one hop from a transaction you have a less than a percent chance of guessing a spender (0.4%). After two hops (0.02%). Even if you figure out who sent a transaction somehow you won't know how much was sent or to whom. Only that they sent a Monero.


Ironicamente, Monero e ouro têm mais em comum do que Bitcoin. Uma transação física de ouro não pode ser vista pelo mundo, por isso é privada, fungível, a oferta circulante não pode ser conhecida com exatidão e é basicamente infinita, tal como o Monero.


Além de exigir um custodiante, o problema do Liquid é que ele apenas esconde quantidades. Você ainda pode ver o remetente e o destinatário, portanto é rastreável. Ele também tem quase 0 anonimato definido porque ninguém o usa.

Monero esconde completamente valores e destinatários com “confidential transactions” e “stealth addresses”. Os remetentes são ofuscados por "ring signatures". E ainda possui proteção de nível de rede de origem IP padrão por causa do "Dandelion++" para que você não saiba o endereço IP do gastador.

Quando você vê uma única transação em um bloco no Liquid, que nem é de um usuário, é coinbase:
https://liquid.network/blocks

Como o Monero tem “ring signatures” e você não sabe quem é o verdadeiro gastador, você deve multiplicar cada transação por 16 (15 iscas + 1 gastador real):
https://localmonero.co/blocks/


Sim, apenas estude, mesmo que seja apenas para conhecer mais o seu inimigo e ter críticas válidas.

A grande diferença da moeda fiduciária é que a emissão de Monero é pequena, descentralizada e previsível. O Bitcoin ainda é melhor na escassez, mas o Monero é muito melhor do que a moeda fiduciária.
Se a oferta infinita te preocupa, não use Monero para economizar, apenas use para gastar, Bitcoin para economizar, e o problema estará resolvido.

Nunca faço promessas sobre preços através da especulação. Tudo o que sei é que é melhor gastar Monero porque é privado, barato e sem permissão.


Ironicamente, o ouro e a prata são virtualmente infinitos. Mesmo que terminemos de minerar completamente o nosso planeta, existe um universo virtualmente infinito que ainda tem sempre mais. Tudo o que nos limita é o tempo, a tecnologia e o lucro.

Não só isso, mas ao contrário do Bitcoin, o ouro é privado, fungível, a oferta circulante não pode ser conhecida com exatidão e é basicamente infinita, assim como o Monero.


If that is your view, ok that is fine, but then I can just say the same exact thing about Monero: "Yes it cannot scale yet. But its open source, it's a work in progress."


Do you know about Trocador? Great exchange aggregator.

https://trocador.app


Check out LocalMonero. Many ways to get Monero from fiat.


Sim, vamos apenas concordar em alguns pontos e discordar em outros. Obrigado por ser um bom esporte


A mesma ênfase que você dá ao mundo informatizado moderno é a razão pela qual acredito que é mais provável que existam e sejam aceitas muitas criptomoedas – cada uma com suas próprias especialidades. Simplesmente porque é muito fácil alterá-los. No passado, era muito mais trabalhoso aceitar outras moedas físicas/metais preciosos e trocá-los por ouro. Barreira muito maior. Mas com as criptomoedas você pode trocá-las facilmente e sem esforço com um clique do mouse ou até mesmo de forma automatizada. Mesmo que alguém fosse um Bitcoin maxi, seria inteligente aceitar qualquer criptomoeda e apenas trocá-la por Bitcoin, se você quiser. Isso ficará ainda mais fácil e contínuo com o tempo.


Cláudio não consegue mascar chiclete e andar. Ele acha que só porque você economiza em Bitcoin você tem que gastar em Bitcoin. Ou só porque você usa Monero você tem que economizar no Monero.

Iria explodir o pequeno cérebro deles se você pudesse fazer as duas coisas, então não diga a ele 🤫🤯


Se você quer dizer que uma moeda se torna importante, ok, concordo. Mas nunca foi demonstrado em toda a história que todas as moedas morrem completamente. Mesmo agora existem muitas moedas diferentes. Mesmo quando o ouro era rei, a prata ainda era um jogador importante.

Ah, mas há muitas coisas que o Bitcoin não pode fazer agora e talvez nunca consiga. Os Bitcoiners valorizam a transparência para auditabilidade. Isso é mutuamente exclusivo para a privacidade. A camada base do Bitcoin nunca será privada. Você pode dizer que algum dia isso será descoberto em uma L2, mas as L2s sempre terão propriedades e segurança diferentes da privacidade da L1.

Depois vem o efeito de rede. Se o Bitcoin demorar muito para atingir uma forte camada de privacidade, o mercado terá dificuldade em mudar. Podemos olhar para os lightning e os líquidos como exemplos disso. Ambos extremamente pequenos se comparados ao Bitcoin da rede.

Você parece estar confundindo salvar um ativo com usar um ativo. As propriedades de um não são necessariamente ideais para as propriedades do outro.


Ok, I don't disagree with you about store of value. But we are talking about money as a whole. And you said yourself that all those properties were important. By your own metric, if Bitcoin is missing some or weak in them, it isn't money. If you said Bitcoin and Monero were not money, that would sound consistent to me. But saying Bitcoin is money and Monero is not seems not correct especially with Moneros closer similarities with gold (private, fungible, low inflation, limitless supply).

And that is exactly why Bitcoin isn't fungible. Bitcoin is fungible in theory, on a protocol level. In the real world, 1 BTC =/= 1 BTC because of unique/distinguishable/non-uniform histories. If my coin is tainted by some past criminal activity or coinjoining, and others are able to see that, they will value it less than a freshly mined coin or one with no dirty past. Even if they don't care, they know others might care. A coin could even be overvalued if it belonged to a celebrity. We already have many examples of all this and Bitcoin isn't even widespread yet.

"You don't ask nicely that everyone else not spend your coins; You just protect them using a cryptographic key.
Similarly, you don't ask nicely everyone else not distinguish your monetary units; You just make them *technically* indistinguishable AKA fungible." -BinaryFate

Gold is virtually limitless.
Even if we mine all the gold on earth in some distant future there is a whole universe out there (which could also be endless or so vast it is virtually endless). Access to it is only limited by time, technology, and profit.

Yes, I don't mind this discussion. "Hidden Secrets of Money" is great. Monero users were actually the ones that showed me it. Just let me know if you want to agree to disagree.


"If". Pure hypothetical. Fact is none of that is true *right now*, and may never be true. All depends on rate of adoption, consumer tech advances, and protocol level efficiency gains.

Bitcoin can't scale by your metric either and neither can lightning.
"Lightning Network -- Fundamental Limitations" -Paul Sztorc
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations

Yes, I know Nostr was built by Bitcoiners. Not sure what your point is.


No prob man, let me know if you have any other questions and hopefully I can help


Yea, some people don't like that. And admittedly it annoys me too.
But those T&Cs are for the exchange feature since they send you to third party providers (that you can choose) if you use them.
You can just not ever use the built in exchange feature.
You can also turn off the exchange/buy/sell features in the settings so it's just purely a wallet (which I do)


I would avoid MyMonero. Since their servers keep you synced, they can see things wallets shouldn't be able to, so it defeats the whole point of Monero.

Cake Wallet is a solid choice and favorite of many. Open source and non custodial. It also offers a feature, that other wallets currently do not, that removes a big annoyance of Monero - autosyncs when charging

Stack Wallet and Monerujo are other good choices

If you are hardcore, check out Anonero. Security and privacy dials to the max. Can only get it on the spooky web:
http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/


Inflation is not needed for gold. You are right. My point was gold was still money *despite* small inflation for civilization for thousands of years. So obviously inflation is not an exclusionary criteria for money if you think gold was/is money.

Also, you have to contend with the fact that circulating gold supply doesn't disappear when everyone stops mining it like it does with crypto. Gold also doesn't have transaction fees that grow the more people use it and that secure the circulating supply.

Isn't the reason for mining anything (including crypto) because you can profit more than the cost to mine? This isn't unique to gold. Whether that is in terms of USD, another crypto, or stuff you can get, there is no real distinction.

Another massive difference between fiat inflation vs gold/monero mining is that fiat inflation is massive, centralized, and unpredictable.


Você continua mencionando a falta de descentralização, mas a mineração de Monero é mais descentralizada do que Bitcoin, já que literalmente qualquer pessoa com um telefone ou computador pode minerá-lo (quase todo mundo tem isso). Somente pessoas que podem gastar milhares de dólares em ASICs podem minerar Bitcoin.

E o Monero tem quase o número de nós que o Bitcoin possui:
https://monero.fail/map

Bitcoin também é simplesmente uma tecnologia com diferentes decisões de design.
Monero não precisa ser usado por todas as pessoas do planeta para ter sucesso. Todos na Terra precisam dirigir um veículo específico para que esse veículo seja considerado um sucesso? Não, obviamente. Mas a maioria dos Bitcoiners pensa assim sobre o Bitcoin. Você já está subindo uma colina mais íngreme.

Você parece pensar que haverá apenas uma criptomoeda no futuro. Isso nunca ocorreu com dinheiro em nenhum momento da história da humanidade, então cabe a você a responsabilidade de provar que isso acontecerá. Talvez esta seja a desconexão entre nós. Porque existem vantagens e desvantagens, e você não pode ser bom em tudo ou não será bom em nada, não acredito nisso. Sempre haverá muitas criptomoedas, algumas mais populares que outras e irão flutuar com o tempo.


Por mim tudo bem. Isso eliminará os usuários que são intelectualmente desonestos e não pensam criticamente sobre essas coisas. Esses usuários são puramente emocionais e reativos. Tenho conversas interessantes com aqueles que permanecem. O que tornou o Bitcoin excelente originalmente foi o pensamento adversário. Não são usuários que fingem que tudo está perfeito e que o Bitcoin vencerá de qualquer maneira.

Por favor, critique Monero. Obrigado. Se seus argumentos forem válidos, eles resistirão a um exame minucioso. E se você alcançar um número suficiente de pessoas, isso gerará discussões que desencadearão mudanças para tornar o Monero mais forte.

Você já ouviu falar do conceito de antifragilidade? Isso é extremamente necessário no moderno espaço de bolha maxi do Bitcoiner


Felt the same way back when I first went thru it. Couldn't argue with the logic presented and changed my view.


Bitcoin is missing a major property of money. Fungibility. Unique histories can't be fungible.

Most Bitcoiners brush this aside. Or just insist it is fungible despite NFTs being made on it's chain.

Gold has a virtually limitless supply and was considered money by civilization for many millennia. So, I'm not sure if your argument is consistent.


Existem maxis de bitcoin intelectualmente honestos, mas você não é um deles. Você insultos de tiro como uma criança e nunca tem argumentos ou contra-pontos.


Você me entende mal. Não estou dizendo que Monero é superior em um sentido abrangente. Estou dizendo que é superior para usos específicos. Assim como o Bitcoin é superior a usos diferentes, como armazenar valor. Não sei como é ainda discutível.

Tu podes fazer o que quiseres. Tenha um ótimo dia.


Eu também, mas enquanto isso usarei o que funciona. Ficarei feliz em usá-lo se o Bitcoin implementar essas coisas no futuro.


Como eu te disse antes, não me importo com preço. O preço da Monero não afeta sua utilidade. Sua privacidade também funciona por US $ 100, como em US $ 200.

Por que meu argumento é "propaganda" e seus argumentos são puramente limpos? Obviamente, você tem um interesse financeiro para ver o aumento do preço do Bitcoin. Eu tenho os dois, então por que você gostaria de minar o Bitcoin?

Estou simplesmente dizendo a verdade sobre o Bitcoin. Não é privado agora. Não é barato de usar. Pode ser um bom armazenamento de valor para manter, mas é uma moeda ruim para usar.
Eu poderia me importar menos com a "adoção em massa". Este é um ponto de discussão para o Bitcoin Maxi. Pessoalmente, não acredito que o Bitcoin ou Monero sejam usados pelas massas em qualquer sentido real. É dinheiro para rebeldes.

O uso do mercado branco (mercados com permissão) não é por que o Bitcoin foi criado e não há nada de especial no uso do mercado branco. Você está seguindo as regras ao usar o Bitcoin nos mercados brancos, o que significa que o Bitcoin será permitido, mas de uma forma dispensável compatível ou expulsa nos mercados negros.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/permissionless-principle


Sim, nada é perfeito. É por isso que estou feliz por ter muitas ferramentas especializadas que são boas para usos específicos. Se eu quiser armazenar liquidez de valor longo e profundo, o Bitcoin parece ser o melhor candidato no momento. Se eu quiser gastar em privado, barato e sem permissão, Moneto é ótimo. Se eu quiser mexer com contratos inteligentes, o Ethereum está disponível. Se eu quero os estábulos sem permissão, "Dai" existe.

Não tenho que escolher um para tudo. Eu posso escolher o que é melhor para o trabalho.


Bem, tecnicamente, existem algumas maneiras de escalar facilmente blockchains que existem agora. MimbleWimble e "DAGs" são dois exemplos. Em termos de escalabilidade, eles são muito melhores que o Monero e até o Bitcoin.

Eu acho que o Bitcoin faria bem em adotar Mimblewimble. Isso não apenas traria escalabilidade extrema, mas uma privacidade muito forte quase igual a Monero (endereços e quantidades estão completamente ocultos na MimbleWimble). O Litecoin já fez todo o trabalho e teste para o Bitcoin.


O Monero * é * superior ao Bitcoin em determinadas categorias, como privacidade, fungibilidade e taxas. É apenas um fato técnico. Não há razão para ficar chateado ou preso a algo que é uma ferramenta.

Não estou bloqueando ninguém e não tenho vontade de falar apenas em uma câmara de eco.


Sim, eu sei que você faz e você foi um ótimo participante nessas conversas. Não estou dizendo para você comprar nada, estou simplesmente apontando os problemas e os problemas futuros que o Bitcoin terá se não mudar e inovar.


Sidechains ainda não existem, se é que alguma vez. Bitcoiners em geral não foram muito aconchegantes à ideia. E mesmo se implementado, eles teriam desvantagens e segurança muito diferentes da cadeia principal, assim como os lightning têm desvantagens muito diferentes. Sim, eu concordo com o alto uso que implica alta demanda, o que significa taxas extremamente altas a serem usadas, o que significa que a maioria dos usuários não poderá usá -la.

Eu concordo com você sobre o cenário 2, mas estou apenas mencionando a possibilidade, até pequena.

É verdade, não sabemos o que vai acontecer


Cenário 1: O uso de Bitcoin cresce, as taxas aumentam. O Bitcoin é seguro, mas a maioria das pessoas não conseguirá usá-lo devido às altas taxas.

Cenário 2: Bitcoin não é muito utilizado, as taxas são baixas porque ninguém o utiliza. O Bitcoin é inseguro e facilmente atacável, mas qualquer pessoa que queira usá-lo pode fazê-lo de forma barata se ainda estiver disponível.

O cenário 1 me parece mais provável. Mas qualquer um dos casos é ruim.

A longo prazo, você precisa de um tamanho de bloco dinâmico (corrige o cenário 1), recompensas de bloco contínuo (corrige o cenário 2) ou ambos. Até Peter Todd concorda:

https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary


I'm not the one who got mad at a reply meant for someone else

It fails at literally everything else that makes a great digital cash so I'm happy you have one thing that Bitcoin does better than Monero. Without that I'm not sure what is left.


You can runand store a Monero node more easily than you can a Bitcoin node, so I don't see how that helps your argument.

I don't understand what you mean about the different services part.

If anything Bitcoin is less creative because of it's ossification it  has remained largely the same since it was created. Monero has many more interesting features it has implemented over time like bulletproofs and dandelion.

But to each their own.


Sure, but not every single person in the world needs to run a node either. Decentralization is not binary. And at this moment in time it is much easier to sync a full Monero node than a Bitcoin node. It's a fraction of it's size. You can also prune to make it even smaller.


Not necessarily.
That all entirely depends on the rate of adoption.
Average internet speed continues improving every year.
1 terabyte wasn't even available/affordable. Today it's no big deal. You can also find a 1 terabyte microSDs for $20-$30 and its the size of your pinky nail. Consumer tech constantly improves. So does protocol level efficiency. Monero transactions have been shrunk ~80% with bulletproofs since it was created


A swiss bank in your pocket

#monero #xmr

https://m.primal.net/HcJM.mp4


Using #Bitcoin privately

"All it takes is one mistake."

https://m.primal.net/HcIx.mp4


Você é o único chorando aqui e ficando chateado com opiniões.
Posso fazer e dizer o que quiser, assim como você, e você não pode fazer nada a respeito

Este é o Nostr. Bloqueie-me se quiser. Ainda posso responder aos seus comentários e revelar suas besteiras para outras pessoas.

Se você não consegue lidar com isso, então vá embora


Não é da minha conta? Sim! Agora você entendeu! De repente você tropeçou no valor da privacidade 😂

Também direi o que quero e chamarei as coisas pelos seus nomes


If you've read the cypherpunk manifesto and know anything about the history that led to Bitcoin, it is *painfully* clear that anonymity AND privacy were both intended for digital cash.

And despite the history you're now framing default privacy as "force". I could easily flip this around and say you're "forcing" surveillance. But that would be disingenuous so I wont.

Do you know the difference between anonymity and privacy and why both are important?
One is hidden actions, the other is hidden identity. Both different concepts. Bitcoin can never be private unless the base layer is changed. It is a public blockchain.

On top of zero privacy, Bitcoin doesn't even have strong anonymity as it is pseudonymous. Your Bitcoin anon set is also only as large as those who don't KYC and your coinjoining partners. A tiny fraction of Bitcoiners. It is much smaller than you let on. And any mistakes made over time by them reduces your anon set. With Monero it is never known if a TXO was spent or by whom and your anon set passively grows over time with no action from you as you're chosen for decoys in other transactions.

You can also always opt out of Monero's privacy with your viewkeys as well.

For someone who doesn't like framing you sure have done it a lot in this reply. I could just as easily say you're "trapping" people in the surveillance world.

All the cypherpunks of Bitcoins past would *strongly* disagree with you.


Obrigado por revelar que você valoriza a privacidade.

Se você usar o Bitcoin apenas para escapar da inflação fiduciária, estará perdendo os principais atributos do Bitcoin que o tornam único em relação ao fiduciário. Sem ser também custodial e sem permissão, o Bitcoin não é especial.

Se você não se importa com as origens do Bitcoin e os objetivos dos cypherpunks que o construíram, você parece mais um fiat maxi do que um verdadeiro Bitcoiner.


A única coisa que você expôs é que você também não sabe o que é um non-sequitur


O que você estava dizendo sobre excesso em seu outro comentário? 🤔


É engraçado quando um Bitcoin maxi chama alguém de neurótico e excessivo. Você conhece o ditado sobre casas de vidro e pedras atiradas.

Você também revela que não sabe nada sobre as origens cypherpunk do Bitcoin. Eles eram neuróticos porque enfatizavam constantemente a importância do anonimato e da privacidade? Não, eles sabiam que você não pode ter liberdade sem ela

Obviamente, você valoriza a privacidade, caso contrário não esconderia suas chaves privadas Bitcoin. Compartilhe-os aqui para provar que estou errado.


Ok, então o que você tem a temer, Nostradamus?


Sucesso, na minha definição, é ser imparável. A ampla adoção é secundária. Se surgir uma pequena economia paralela do Monero que as pessoas possam usar para escapar da tirania, eu diria que será um sucesso porque isso é algo que nem sequer era uma opção antes do Monero.

Na realidade, Bitcoin ou Monero nunca verão uma adoção global massiva no verdadeiro sentido (custodiantes e ETFs não contam). Ambos são dinheiro para rebeldes.

Até que o Bitcoin obtenha forte privacidade para aliviar Monero de seu dever, Monero ficará de guarda 🫡


Sim, muito mais pessoas aceitam Paypal, reais e dólares do que Bitcoin, Ethereum ou Monero juntos. Não é nem um concurso.

O que quero dizer é que se você vai se contentar com algo como a Wallet of Satoshi para transações, é melhor usar o Paypal, ou reais e dólares digitais. Com a Wallet of Satoshi você não obtém nenhum dos benefícios da adoção fiduciária e também perde qualquer vantagem do Bitcoin (autocustódia e sem permissão). Você fica com o pior de ambos.

Além disso, Monero é verdadeiramente privado, diferente de tudo que você listou


Você precisa ser engenheiro para dirigir um carro? Não. Este é um design terrível.

O resultado é que 99,9% dos usuários não executarão seu próprio nó lightning apenas para semiprivacidade (a privacidade do receptor ainda é terrível mesmo se você executar seu próprio nó, e saldos ocultos podem ser descobertos por meio de sondagem).

Mesmo que você não execute seu próprio nó Monero – um nó remoto não sabe quem você é, para quem está enviando ou quanto. Basta pressionar enviar.

Usar a Carteira do Satoshi é uma desculpa. Neste ponto, é melhor usar aplicativos fiduciários digitais como o Paypal, pois ambos têm custódia, exigem permissão e podem ver tudo o que você faz. Pelo menos muito mais pessoas aceitam Paypal.


Economize em Bitcoin, gaste em Monero então

Não vou gastar $50 para comprar algo que vale $20


Sim, e aparentemente você não entende as implicações da lei Greshams


Desculpe, interpretei incorretamente seu texto


Você percebe que o primeiro caso de uso do Bitcoin foi para mercados darknet, certo?

Desprezos de “usuários de drogas” são o que comentaristas tradicionais de finanças e mídia disseram uma vez sobre o Bitcoin para menosprezá-lo. E você soa exatamente como eles.

É o campo de testes. A razão pela qual os mercados livres, como os darknets, escolheram o Monero é porque ele funciona. Se proteger aqueles que estão sob alta ameaça, protegerá facilmente o usuário médio.

Você também percebe que o Bitcoin tem fortes raízes cypherpunk? O que os cypherpunks sempre enfatizaram? Privacidade e anonimato. Porque eles sabiam que não se pode ter verdadeira liberdade sem isso.


Então você concorda comigo. Bitcoin é uma moeda ruim porque ninguém nunca o gasta. É caro de usar e não é privado.


Ei, o Bitcoin tem mais em comum com a moeda fiduciária. Ambos são dinheiro de vigilância.


Você tem que admitir que sua afirmação é pura especulação. Você ou eu não conhecemos o futuro.


Lightning e Liquid não têm privacidade forte. A Liquid também possui custódia e cerca de 95% dos usuários do Lightning possuem carteiras de custódia. Basta olhar para si mesmo como exemplo.


Claro que não. Se fanáticos por Bitcoin como você não conseguem se preocupar em usar carteiras de autocustódia, o cidadão comum também não o fará. Paypal Lite, aqui vamos nós! 😂


Já se passaram 15 anos e ainda não há privacidade no Bitcoin. Você pode entender por que alguns ficaram frustrados e seguiram em frente. Os usuários não ficarão parados esperando por um futuro incerto. É exatamente por isso que as pessoas que valorizam a privacidade e lugares como os mercados da darknet adotaram amplamente o Monero – exclusivamente em alguns mercados.


Ei, se você nunca usa criptografia, é claro que não achará o Monero útil. E está tudo bem. Se você não precisa disso, você não precisa disso.

É engraçado quando um Bitcoiner chama os outros de obcecados 😂
Você conhece a frase “panela chamando a chaleira de preta”?


1. Eu promovo o Monero para que outros possam ter privacidade transacional. Há muita desinformação aqui sobre o Monero. Eu não poderia me importar menos em apostar na especulação de preços futuros. Tudo isso é muito desinteressante.
2. Não, faça o que achar melhor. Só estou dizendo que se você deseja uma privacidade transacional forte (sem custodiantes), o Monero é um candidato muito melhor.
3. Eu uso Monero o tempo todo e onde posso. Use a melhor ferramenta para o trabalho. Eu não usaria uma chave de fenda como martelo, nem esperaria até que alguém fizesse chaves de fenda melhores para martelar.
4. Se eu quiser ajudar a criar um sistema alternativo *privado* ao mundo fiduciário, Monero é provavelmente o único candidato legítimo no momento, de longe. Mas se surgir algo melhor e for adotado, eu usarei.

Porém, tudo tem desvantagens. Tanto Bitcoin quanto Monero. Depende apenas de qual é o seu caso de uso que determina o que você deve usar.

Se você acha que o Bitcoin terá um preço melhor no longo prazo, economize no Bitcoin. Isso não o desqualifica de usar o Monero devido à sua privacidade transacional para gastos.


Você é o único golpista aqui. Você está dizendo aos outros para apenas comprarem Bitcoin, independentemente de suas necessidades, apenas para encher as malas, mesmo que qualquer previsão de preço futuro seja pura especulação. Numa moeda de vigilância, nada menos


Está no seu perfil, gênio


As únicas pessoas que vejo no Nostr tentando dizer aos outros para encherem as malas são Bitcoin-maxis. A única multidão que diz aos outros para comprarem apenas Bitcoin.

Você pode economizar a longo prazo com Bitcoin e gastar em Monero para privacidade transacional. Um não exclui o outro.

Alguém que precisa de privacidade *agora* não pode esperar por promessas vazias e futuros obscuros para obter privacidade transacional no Bitcoin.


O fato de você usar moeda de vigilância cara (ou custodiantes vigiados baratos) não tem efeito sobre mim


Não vamos nos deixar levar. O Bitcoin ainda não é usado por 99,9% do mundo. Muito menos usá-lo sem custódia (o que é uma adoção real. Uma coisa importante que o diferencia da moeda fiduciária digital). A Fiat ainda é rei em adoção e uso e nem sequer é uma competição.

Além disso, não há nada de especial no uso de Bitcoin no mercado branco (uso permitido). O caso de uso real é fora dos mercados brancos.

Eu respondi isso em um post com a mesma pergunta:
note1dj78l0zpg6qf46g8hn9l9zffd8pas7lw5ege5v2ct0twu8x2y9mqt98ea9


Yea, sounds like that might be a better idea unless they enforce by default on the protocol layer. In the meanwhile, something like SimpleX is better for DMs


Se você tiver algum argumento para algum dos meus pontos, vamos ouvi-lo. Caso contrário, só vejo reivindicações e opiniões na sua resposta.


Ah, você não se importa com privacidade? Legal. Você pode postar seu endereço físico, bitcoin xpubs e extratos financeiros bancários aqui? Ou você é um covarde?

Por que você também está escondendo suas chaves privadas Bitcoin? Que covarde

Continue fingindo que usa Bitcoin com aquela carteira de custódia 😂 larper


I agree


Claro que você faria. Você não tem problemas de custódia ou permissão. Vejo que você usa a "Wallet of Satoshi"


Pena que a maioria das camadas requer custódia até agora (líquid e ecash) e o lightning é tão complexo para operar sem custódia que ~ 95% dos usuários estão sob carteira de custódia. O único com forte privacidade é o ecash, mas é custodial. Monero não é.

Meu argumento sobre o ouro era especificamente sobre emissão e suprimento em relação ao Monero. Foi o dinheiro para a civilização por milhares de anos, mas teve uma emissão contínua (que ainda está sendo extraída hoje). Então, é claro, essas coisas não são tão cruciais. O importante é que a emissão seja pequena, descentralizada e previsível.


So, I see Amethyst *does* support it. You need to click that little incognito icon that is crossed out on the left of the text box in your picture.

I really wish it was by default and that more clients supported it. Hopefully it will be more widely adopted over time.


There are some clients that have adopted NIPS that resolve this using "gift-wrapped" messages. Amethyst is one I think, but double check me on that. Both users have to be using a client that supports it though.

https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/fd914c600fd590e6188534cd7555116da7855503/59.md


Great for the long term. Flush out all these speculators and paper trading manipulation and get to it's real current market price.


Você sabe o que mais vai para o infinito? Taxas de transação de Bitcoin.
Uma moeda de vigilância que é demasiado cara para ser utilizada pela maior parte do mundo.

A emissão de BNB e fiduciários é centralizada e imprevisível. Eles também têm custódia e permissão.
Monero é o oposto de todas essas coisas.

Semelhante ao Monero, o fornecimento de ouro é virtualmente ilimitado, tem sido continuamente extraído há milhares de anos, ainda é, e tem sido o dinheiro da civilização durante muitos milénios.

Se alguém hoje lhe oferecesse US$ 100.000 em moeda BNB ou ouro para guardar em um cofre que você não conseguiria abrir por uma década, o que você escolheria? Nós dois sabemos qual seria sua escolha, então obviamente há grandes diferenças aí!


It's even worse than you may think.
Every time you only see 1 transaction in a block it's really 0 users because that is just the coinbase, not an actual user transacting.


Yes, but aside from it being custodial, Liquid privacy is incomplete.

It doesn't have stealth addresses to hide receiver or ring signatures to hide sender like Monero. So it is still easily traceable.

It also doesn't have default network protection like Dandelion++


Você sabe o que mais vai para o infinito? Taxas de transação de Bitcoin.
Uma moeda de vigilância que é demasiado cara para ser utilizada pela maior parte do mundo.

Ao contrário do Monero, a emissão fiduciária é centralizada e imprevisível.

Semelhante ao Monero, o fornecimento de ouro é virtualmente ilimitado, tem sido continuamente extraído há milhares de anos, ainda o é, e foi o dinheiro da civilização durante muitos milénios.

Se alguém hoje lhe oferecesse US$ 100.000 em moeda fiduciária ou ouro para guardar em um cofre que você não conseguiria abrir por uma década, o que você escolheria? Nós dois sabemos qual seria a sua escolha, então obviamente há uma grande diferença!


Monero *é* melhor para transações anônimas e privadas. Estes são apenas fatos técnicos.
Você não pode ter liberdade sem privacidade. Os Cypherpunks sabiam disso e foram a raiz do movimento Bitcoin e da história que levou à sua criação.


Bela carteira de custódia, mano! 😂

Um mago veterano do Bitcoin saltando 50 aros com opsec perfeito tem menos privacidade do que o usuário Monero com maior deficiência mental apertando o botão enviar


Que coincidência. Acabei de dar a mesma informação a um cavalheiro:

note1dj78l0zpg6qf46g8hn9l9zffd8pas7lw5ege5v2ct0twu8x2y9mqt98ea9


Eu possuo Bitcoin e Monero, então posso ver vantagens e desvantagens para ambos os lados. Eu apenas vejo como mais racional usar Bitcoin para economias de longo prazo (não é privado e caro para transacionar) e Monero para transacionar (barato de usar e privado). Mas sim, quanto ao preço futuro, é tudo especulação.


You are wrong. The reason Bitcoin is so expensive to transact on is because of it's fixed blocksize. Monero has a dynamic blocksize, so even with the same demand it would adjust and would be just as cheap to transact as right now.


You're right. If you don't have a need for it or find it useful then you don't. I'm simply saying there are more use cases for it and people who use it than you may think.

Here is a large directory for places to spend it on white markets:
https://monerica.com/

Here is a growing p2p white market:
https://moneromarket.io/

nostr:npub172mu27r5yny0nnmvgjqwhx055dmsesrrx7j0p5d3pxagfx6xgxfsv75p3q sells great maple syrup

https://gratuitas.org sells great coffee

nostr:npub19k9fy5yu6a9ldkxtgu78lgh27vp82nrg7twz9ytyrma5l0mwv22sq5hs8s sells great pemmican bars

Most FOSS privacy projects and businesses accept payment and even prefer donations in Monero (Tor, IVPN, Mullvad, SimpleLogin, AnonAddy, SimpleX, Molly, GrapheneOS, Silent Link, CoinCards, ShopInBit, etc)

...and of course it is the preferred and rising star of Freenet Markets

Can't find a place you would spend? Only care about anonymity?
Worse case you can purchase giftcards and virtual debits (more widely accepted than Bitcoin) cheaper using Monero (They don't know you were the one who purchased it - little to no info required at purchase - and you could have been given it as payment or as a gift from someone else):
https://coincards.com/
https://www.coinsbee.com/
https://buy.cakepay.com/

Buy things from Amazon using Monero. The person buying it for you doesn't know who you are or your address. Amazon doesn't know it was purchased with Monero.
https://monezon.com/

Atomic swaps popping up everywhere. BTC swaps:
https://unstoppableswap.net/
https://basicswapdex.com/
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/releases
ETH and BCH have one and I see discussion amongst LTC for it.
https://github.com/AthanorLabs/atomic-swap
https://github.com/PHCitizen/bch-xmr-swap

Serai and Haveno DEXs probably releasing sometime this year. Saw discussion amongst Thorchain DEX to introduce it (use asgarDEX frontend to avoid problems with the "official" frontend). You can also get it the old fashioned way with fiat p2p via LocalMonero or Bisq

I think versus other crypto Monero is actually winning a battle that is not over yet. It's becoming less reliant on TradFi and centralized institutions...all this adversarial pressure is strengthening it...Less speculation, paper trading price manipulation, custodians, and KYC.
This is the crucible. If it survives delistings it can survive anything.

I don't think any other crypto would do this well in the same situation including Bitcoin. Many "privacy" coins also caved in to Binance demands of changing the protocol to suit them.


The proud toxic maxis can't handle others being toxic to them 😂

Can't make this shit up


To be fair, the vast majority of the world doesn't care about Bitcoin or Monero.
If you believe Monero will continue to downtrend, why not just use it for transactional privacy and continue saving in Bitcoin?

Cash is great locally but:
Cant send cash instantly to anyone on the planet.
Cant carry unlimited amounts in your head to avoid confiscation and theft.
Issuance is centralized.
Inflation is unpredictable.
Difficult to verify authenticity of bills on-the-fly.
No mechanism to verify supply.
Not as easily divisible. Need to carry specific denominations for change.
Can't trustlessly exchange for crypto (no atomic swaps)
Different people can't have simultaneous ownership and control over the same cash (multisig)

no-KYC Bitcoin doesn't make it private. No actions are hidden. Anyone in the world can see what you do, so you're more vulnerable to chain analysis. It does make it kind of anonymous though (hidden identity). Privacy and anonymity are both important to have.


Just look at Lightning or Liquid adoption. It does not share the same merchant adoption as On-chain. Not even close.


Sim, mas Monero tem uma vasta parcela de efeito de rede para moedas de privacidade e está crescendo. Será difícil fazer com que os comerciantes mudem sempre que o Bitcoin finalmente tiver uma cadeia lateral ou camada de privacidade (que também não é custodial). Então não está tão claro.


Bitcoin est une pièce de surveillance coûteuse


I was replying to Skipper, not you.
I didn't buy Monero anywhere near the top of 2018, but you can imagine I did if it makes you feel better about your expensive surveillance coin.


Monero is half a cent to transact...
Federated mints make it no less custodial.
Why is Monero block reward scary? It currently has less inflation than Bitcoin.

Yes, I know what you're talking about for proof of reserves, it's Calle working on it, and it is an incomplete method with many issues which Calle says himself. And even if it was figured out you need both proof of reserves and proof of liabilities, which you can't do.

https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939#this-scheme-does-not-provide-perfect-accountability


You're so mad 😂

We're not stopping you from using an expensive surveillance coin for transactions, incomplete privacy L2s with terrible sovereign UX, or custodial solutions. Have at it


Bitcoin is a surveillance coin. Get-rich-quick schemes don't change that.


We infiltrated nothing. Nostr is an open permissionless protocol.

Bitcoin maxis are constantly luring newbies into an expensive surveillance panopticon chain, promising them get-rich-quick schemes, and custodial solutions galore

Bitcoin was born out of darknet markets and owes it's first major use case to it for the 100th time. If you're only ever going to use Bitcoin in places that require permission by definition (white markets) then why do you need it? Just use fiat if you're going to play by the rules anyway


Ecash supply of the mint can be arbitrarily printed - that's centralized issuance and no PoW. Pretty big difference.

It's also still custodial.


mad lad


Weird, I don't seem to remember telling you how I'm allocated. Keep throwing those herrings 🐟 Let me know when you want to get back on the topic of privacy

Bitcoin @ $10 is no more private than it is @ $1,000,000


Well, first off, 95% of LN users are on custodial wallets and LSPs that can see everything...so we can cross them out completely...

But even if everyone only ran and used their own LN nodes, receiver privacy sucks and hidden balances can be discovered by probing. Many other things involved like onchain data leaks when opening/closing channels.

It would be relatively easy for a big actor running a large LN node to get a good picture of most of the LN network and save all that data. The effectiveness of onion routing is reduced as LN centralizes over time by everyone routing thru large nodes. Governments, IRS, chain analysis, and even large nodes being coerced with a gag order have all the incentive in the world to do this.

With Monero, even if you don't use your own node you still get all the privacy benefits. A remote node doesn't know who the real spender is, and can't see amounts or receivers at all.

So I guess it just depends if you want kind-sorta-maybe privacy or actual privacy from third parties.


You're the one who started throwing insults and seems upset. Sorry, Bitcoin is surveillance chain by design. It can't be good at everything. Trade offs exist in real life.

Red herring back to price (nothing to do with privacy)


It's optional, they can continue using the same address. In fact, it makes more economic sense to do that. Doesn't stop users from consolidating either. Like I said, lots more ways to mess up privacy on Bitcoin.


Another non-sequitur price argument that has nothing to do with what we were discussing, Skipper npub12rrvutnfeu9677d4yjytypqccjn0njnm6zkx2j6xyn2uqfw02ldsrl8ty9

You can still use Bitcoin for long term hodling if you so wish, dingus. I'm talking about transactional privacy. They don't have to be mutually exclusive


Dude, no one is going to do that. 99% of users are going to re-use Bitcoin addresses and not practice good privacy habits. Privacy on Bitcoin is like trying to convince everyone a screwdriver is also great at hammering nails. Any sane person will just use the right tool for the job. You can still use Bitcoin to save if you want.

The last part is a flaw of Bitcoins' not Monero. Don't go in and out of Bitcoin. Spend Monero directly - problem solved.


If it's so basic then explain it.

You seem to think the only way to get Monero is thru Bitcoin. I can buy Monero p2p no-kyc directly using fiat. That's the main way I acquire Monero.

Also, even if you swap from Bitcoin or another crypto, whatever transactions happen from that point forward on Monero are anonymous and private, all anyone could know is you bought Monero, unlike if those transactions happened on Bitcoin

All things equal Monero is better no matter how you slice it. Way less room for mistakes, simpler, cheaper, quicker, and actual privacy - not merely obfuscation. No need to give up custody either.


Monero is dead! Long live Monero!


Yes, 95% of lightning users are on custodial wallets and LSPs that can see everything.

It's used as a glorified Paypal for most (and worse because almost no adoption in comparison)


I find it hilarious that you think everyone is using bitcoin to buy their starbucks coffee. It's a terrible currency to use with any frequency especially for small payments. 99.9% of the world is using fiat.


For whoever thinks it's because of your first point - sounds like absolute cope. They don't give a shit about Bitcoin maxi ideology they're trying to make money. Why didn't all the other hundreds of shitcoins on there get delisted? Also, why did they offer it for so long?

It was obviously because of your second point

It was delisted because it offers uncompromising privacy and the government forces ramping up pressure and regulatory compliance behind the scenes don't like that.

All the privacy coins like Firo that gave in to their demands of adding transparent addresses are still on Binance


npub1r27775s4thzj5gdz4j0dr8jygvtldnur2qxlzw0muu7z57k83c4qtsyqx6

You're welcome


Both of you sound scared and threatened mr wallet of satoshi

...that or you have a crush 🤭


Except none of those offer strong privacy except ecash. And ecash is custodial and rehypothecatable. "Pass-thru" privacy doesn't give you the full benefits.


Happens after every bullrun


So we have BTC atomic swaps
BCH just finished atomic swaps for Monero
ETH is in progress

I'm sure you don't care about the last two, but just bringing it up to show more doors for atomic swaps opening up and CEX delisting become less relevant by the day

https://github.com/PHCitizen/bch-xmr-swap
https://github.com/AthanorLabs/atomic-swap


On a small to medium timescale it can go either way. Even a timescale of months is too short to know if Monero will be up or down vs Bitcoin. SoV implies long term as in years or longer. For example, all of 2022 you would've been much better off holding Monero than Bitcoin.

You also need to first acquire Bitcoin non-kyc ON TOP OF Coinjoining/opening LN channels etc, so that's kind of a moot point. You don't need to swap from Bitcoin either. You can buy Monero directly with fiat or even swap from something like Litecoin, which is just as easy to get, and also avoid the expensive Bitcoin fees part.

No, not true, even with Bitcoin-like adoption transaction fees on Monero would still be very cheap because of dynamic blocksize. You might have short term fee spikes if it is sudden, but fees will always fall back down over time as blocksize adjusts to accommodate it. With Bitcoin, because of fixed size, sustained demand means perpetually high fees that increases forever as demand grows.


Oh ya? Care to explain how? Amounts and receivers aren't visible at all so I'm not sure how you're imagining that would work in your mind. No transaction graph exists like it does with Bitcoin.


Yes, I specifically said receiver privacy is bad. So, why would I settle for incomplete and complex privacy? We're just supposed to wait for some indefinite future until it's fixed? LN has always been prioritized around fast and cheap payments for retail, with privacy as an afterthought.

As for inflation bugs - if that worries you just don't use it as a SoV. Problem solved.

Monero is Bisqs largest volume trading pair by far. Samourai Wallet, one of Bitcoins largest coinjoin protocols, also just implemented BTC-XMR cross chain atomic swaps.

So clearly there is major demand for it even from Bitcoiners.


Store of value is about the longterm. Short to medium term is anyones guess. Monero can be up or down over months vs Bitcoin. You buy enough Monero you'll need to spend for X amount of time (weeks to months). You don't constantly swap in and out.

Your last paragraph sounds expensive, time-consuming, and tedious all for worse overall privacy. I doubt even a fraction of a percent of Bitcoin users do this, let alone do it properly with all best practices. Meanwhile I just hit the send button with Monero and I'm done. All for a fraction of a cent too.


95% of LN users are on custodial wallets and LSPs that can see everything. And even if everyone suddenly decided to use LN correctly - receiver privacy is terrible and even hidden balances can be probed and discovered by larger routing nodes.

LN devs telling you is not private:
bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/state-of-bitcoin-lightning-network-privacy


If Bitcoin dropped 80% again like it did 2022 would you be saying the same thing that you're now saying about Monero? No. Just be a little more consistent.


You're confused. I'm not telling you to buy anything. I have no clue how you even got this from my original reply.


Why is what you want relevant? They're both large drops in price


How large do you think your anon set is with Bitcoin? It's only as large as those who don't KYC (tiny fraction) and partners in your coinjoin round (which passively reduces over time as they spend or make mistakes).

With Monero it's never known if a TXO was spent. And your anonset grows over time, with no action from you, as you're chosen as a  decoy for other transactions. Amounts and addresses are completely hidden as well.

Many DEXs in progress (Haveno and Serai) and already exist (Bisq, Robosats, UnstoppableSwap, BasicSwap and Samourai atomic swaps).  Less speculation, paper trading, custodians, and KYC. Short term pain, long term gain.


That data can be used to figure out who you are (amount analysis, timing, connections with other transactions). Privacy (unknown actions) AND anonymity (unknown identity) are both important.

You don't constantly go in and out. Why would you do that? You buy enough Monero you're planning to spend for X amount of time (the week, month, etc) and top up at the end of that period.


Why are you here if you're scared of volatility?

Bitcoin dropped twice this % in early 2022. Did you already forget?


Bitcoin was born out of darknet markets. Are you that ignorant?

It's the testing ground. If your crypto can make it there it can make it anywhere. It's a highly adversarial environment. That's why it's important.


Grown men don't use Wallet of Satoshi

Have a nice day, cuck


Just letting you know in case you're still confused...any time you post on nostr it is completely public and you can't stop anyone from commenting on your stupid posts even if you mute them 🤪

That's the point 🤡


Bitcoin has had harder falls. Nearly 80% early 2022. Recent ridiculous tx fees that will continue growing with adoption.

Moneros transactional privacy still works at any price. Don't hold it if you're scared of volatility. But in that case you shouldn't be holding Bitcoin either.


Why? Because I caught you in a lie?
Nostr is a public platform, einstein. If you want to speak privately use your DMs


Your original post is about Monero. So yea, you brought it up.


Fluffy didn't create Monero...and Monero isn't an investment. It's digital cash


You obviously care. You're talking about it right now.


Now let's see the early 2022 Bitcoin chart

Or the recent tx fee existential crisis

If you can't handle volatility you shouldn't be in Bitcoin


LocalMonero

or swap from another crypto using an exchange aggregator like trocador.app


Now do the early 2022 Bitcoin chart.
Volatility comes with the territory.


Você está simplesmente errado. A casa da moeda pode gerar tokens ecash sem ter Bitcoin. Nada impede isso. É de conhecimento comum. Até o criador do Cashu, Calle, reconhece e aborda isso. Você está discutindo com ele, não comigo.

https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939#this-scheme-does-not-provide-perfect-accountability


Bitcoin crashed nearly 80% in early 2022. If you're scared of volatility what are you doing here?


Feels good to be a gangster


No you're not. You all sound the same. All you talk about is price. You literally just tagged me in a price discussion


What Bitcoin fanbois don't understand is it won't be anymore private at $10 than it is at $100,000. Also, it's transaction fees grow in proportion to it's adoption. Regulatory capture - you're the one being Trojan horsed.


Don't make me bust out the early 2022 Bitcoin chart


"They just want to get rich quick"

Sounds like you guys. All you ever talk or gloat about is price


Don't make me pull up the early 2022 Bitcoin chart. Can't handle the volatility get out the kitchen.

LN and Liquid have trash privacy and even trashier adoption. No one wants to use it unless it's custodial. And DNMs won't touch the stuff.


This a lie. Bitcoiners everywhere were getting a hard-on for what they imagined it would do to the price.


Many Bitcoiners have the same opinion you do. None of us know for sure what will happen. Good thing we have multiple experiments running. I guess we'll see what happens.


Transactional privacy offered by Monero remains unaffected so I could care less.
No one is forcing you to hold Monero either. You can hold Bitcoin and use Monero solely for transacting. So what's your excuse?
Though if volatility scares you, you shouldn't be in crypto to begin with. Bitcoin had nearly an 80% drop a few years back, so this is nothing in comparison.

Remember, this happened because government pressure on Binance to delist it...because Moneros privacy actually works and is perceived as a threat...how is that BlackRock ETF doing? Sounds super cypherpunk bro


Bitcoin has zero privacy. It is a public blockchain. Anyone in the world can see all amounts and transactions that have ever occurred. You mean you can potentially have pseudonymity on Bitcoin (a weaker form of anonymity). Two different concepts.

What is stopping you from saving in Bitcoin, and transacting in Monero?


E quando chegar a hora de remover seu Bitcoin, o que impõe programaticamente essa proporção de 1:1?
E quanto ao fato de que a casa da moeda pode imprimir arbitrariamente tokens não respaldados pelo Bitcoin e desconhecidos para você?
Tudo isso se resume a uma promessa e à palavra da Casa da Moeda. Baseado na confiança, não no código. Não é aplicado por código, como Bitcoin ou Monero, que era o que eu queria dizer.


Didn't say it wouldn't impact the financial system. It surely will. Just not likely from within or only to a lesser degree (jurisdictional arbitrage).
Mainly parallel economies. Before there were no decentralized permissionless digital currencies. Now those who want to have the ability to opt-out in part or fully


Want strong default privacy to protect you and you family? What about a usable currency without $60+ tx fees that grow forever?

Chose wisely.

(I see you conveniently and intentionally chose to start at 2018)


It's more a logical observation/description

Some people cater to the idea you are saying. A sort of political trojan horse. I personally think that is a bit naive. Bitcoin will not be allowed unrestrained in white markets. Too powerful for those in power. Over time it will be pushed out or only allowed as a shadow of itself (think ETFs, licensed custodians, and burdensome tax requirements)

Thus Bitcoin/Monero/crypto core use is ultimately for spaces outside and between white markets


Monero has additional properties more in common with gold than Bitcoin:

1) privacy
2) fungibility
3) exact supply cannot be definitively known
4) small predictable inflation

So, if you consider gold as money, why wouldn't Monero also be?

Pretty much agree with all your other points


I was with you until #usdt 😅

If you must use a stablecoin - at least use one they can't freeze #dai


Isso não é verdade. Não há nada que garanta programaticamente tokens ecash 1:1 para Bitcoin, exceto a palavra da casa da moeda. Apenas uma promessa (palavras dos políticos) de que trocarão 1:1

Nada impede a Casa da Moeda de reservar frações. Não há nada que os impeça de desonrar a sua palavra também.

Meu objetivo não é discutir. Sim, qualquer um pode fazer o que quiser. Estou simplesmente dizendo que você está mal informado sobre como funciona o ecash. Gostaria também que alguém me dissesse se eu estava mal informado sobre alguma coisa e na mesma posição, para não enganar a mim mesmo ou aos outros sem saber.


Samourai Wallet + "Sentinel" watch-only wallet combo

Samourai can hold your private keys on a completely offline device (disable internet connection with GrapheneOS or rip out the wifi chip), yet you can still sign transactions created on another device that has Sentinel (similar to how you do with SeedSigner)


"As a simple matter of definition, Bitcoin operations cannot be both white market and permissionless"

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


Não é realmente uma trade-off estiver desistindo dos dois aspectos mais importantes do Bitcoin (autocustódia e liberdade de senhoriagem). Sem estes não há nada de especial ou diferente da moeda fiduciária.


Just a heads up for the off-chance you ever use Monero again and others reading this; Cake Wallet has an auto-sync feature, so if you don't use Monero often you can avoid this situation. You're always caught up or never far behind (a few seconds of syncing).


O aspecto negativo de "Ecash" é que é completamente a custódia, para que seu Bitcoin possa ser roubado a qualquer momento. E as "mints" podem imprimir tokens que não são suportados pelo Bitcoin. Isso praticamente destrói as duas propostas principais de valor do Bitcoin.


I can't buy groceries with Bitcoin directly anywhere around me either so what is the difference? You act as if everyone is using and accepting Bitcoin when they're not. Most people still don't know or care about Bitcoin.

If you're holding some fiat right now (and I bet you are) then it is quite hilarious to nitpick about Moneros security.
There is a ~$3 billion bounty for you to break it's security. If it's so weak, then go get it! What are you waiting for? All for you!


You are a rare exception. Hence my original comment "(something almost no lightning user does)"

A big advantage Monero has over LN is that you don't need to run your own Monero node to gain all of it's privacy benefits (hidden amounts, hidden addresses, obfuscated senders). You gain these even if using any remote node.

For LN you *must* run your own node for maximum possible privacy
Even non-custodial wallets like Phoenix offer no privacy advantage


I'll use info we do know. Look at custodial wallet download statistics vs known nodes. Look at Nostr. Even among true believers you are all using LN custodially via WoS, Getalby, etc. No privacy from them.

Are you using ln.tips custodially? If not, you are a rare exception


*if you're running your own lightning node (something almost no lightning user does)


Monero has stronger privacy tech and is harder to mess up in general. Not even a debate. No privacy gymnastics required. Just press send.

For every person burned on Monero there are thousands burned for misusing Bitcoin


Eles o rastrearam porque ele ia e voltava para o Bitcoin. Como o Monero pode ajudar a protegê-lo se você deixá-lo?


Monero security is fine. Digital fiat is a million times less secure (your funds can be frozen, confiscated, no privacy from banks and governments, and rampant unpredictable inflation), yet I'm sure you and most people hold some. You also don't have to hold Monero if you don't want to - just spend it


No one I know of or buy from accepts shielded. What wallet do you use?


Run a Monero node and see if what I'm saying matches up. Exactly like any Bitcoiner would "prove" it.


That has nothing to do with Monero

Of course Monero can't guarantee privacy if you leave it. Almost all the negatives you list are consequences of Bitcoin (cost, potential privacy failures, time consuming swapping) not Monero

You have to use Monero directly


Not the way 95%+ of users use it. Custodial wallets and LSPs can see everything they do.


A few white market brandings that have nothing to do with darknet adoption (not that anything is necessarily wrong with that)
https://monerica.com/
https://moneromarket.io/
https://kuno.anne.media/

Zcash *shielded transactions* are more private. Normal Zcash use is as transparent as Bitcoin and that is the vast majority of use last time I checked. Which may also be why there is less scrutiny. Because it is mostly seen as a transparent chain in practice.


~18,147,820 XMR

Less coins in the market than Bitcoin


Explain how hidden amounts and addresses don't meaningfully improve privacy. Especially over Bitcoin.


This is on par with saying don't go full cash because it is only associated with criminal activity. Ridiculous. There is nothing that makes cash or Monero exclusively "criminal"


You're likely using Alby custodially to zap. They see everything.

If you like third party voyeurism then yes use #liquid and #lightning

If you want real privacy, between sender and receiver ONLY, use Monero

Yes, Bitcoiners are especially fond of 3-letter agencies. They would never be interested in disobeying them /s


Don't know who you're arguing with I've never said otherwise. It's just p2p digital cash plain and simple. If you don't care that third parties can peep in on your transactions then you don't need Monero. But for those who do care it's stronger privacy than Lightning, Liquid, or mixing. You obviously value privacy or you wouldn't even bother using those methods. So why accept half-baked privacy solutions?

Ironically you sound like corporate news media and tradfi bobbleheads that said the same "criticisms" of Bitcoin in it's shady Darknet Market infancy.


You know Bitcoins original use case was Darknet Markets, right?

Don't know or care about there being a "Monero Standard". All I know is it does something better than Bitcoin and is a useful tool right now.

https://monerica.com/
https://moneromarket.io/
https://buy.cakepay.com/
https://coincards.com/us/

Most FOSS privacy projects and businesses accept payment and donations in Monero (Tor, IVPN, Mullvad, SimpleLogin, AnonAddy, SimpleX, Molly, GrapheneOS, Silent Link, ShopInBit, etc)

Monero is Bisqs #1 trade volume (Bitcoins largest DEX). So there is obviously major demand for it even among Bitcoiners.


Monero:
✅ issuance decentralized (anyone can participate and mine)
✅ issuance predictable and known
Ecash:
❌ issuance centralized (only the mint can arbitrarily issue)
❌ issuance not predictable or known

The advantages over Monero (and even Bitcoin) that I can think of:
-nearly instant transactions
-txns can be cheaper/free
-it is offchain/ephemeral (no blockchain - potentially more private and scalable)
-It is 1:1 to BTC (ostensibly)

Other disadvantages:
-ruggable
-requires permission to swap out for underlying asset


Ecash privacy is great...if you don't mind custodians and centralized money printers. You know. The two main problems Bitcoin was trying to solve.


Layers will always have different trade offs and use cases from L1s. None are full replacements.

Simple example:
Cashu/ecash: ✅Great privacy, ❌custodial
Liquid: ➖Modest privacy, ❌custodial
Lightning: ➖Modest privacy, ✅self-custodial
Monero: ✅Great privacy, ✅self-custodial

And in reality, the way 95% of users use Lightning, with custodians and LSPs, they have almost no privacy. Look at the zaps you're talking about and wallet downloads. All WoS, Alby, etc. All because it's sovereign UX complexity and annoyances.

While *onchain* Bitcoin adoption dwarfs Monero, that doesn't translate to Lightning. Most merchants accept on-chain Bitcoin, not necessarily Lightning, Liquid, Ecash. I think Monero adoption is comparable to Lightning and in many cases and markets it actually has more adoption.

In DNMs, there is no LN adoption (because its lesser privacy and complex sovereign UX). It's predominantly Bitcoin and Monero, with Monero specifically preferred, and rapidly rising in all markets. One of the top 3 only accepts Monero, and the other two prefer Monero.

A few interesting facts:
-Monero has the #1 trade volume on Bisq by far, Bitcoins largest DEX,  above fiat currencies or any other crypto
-Monero is the preferred and rising star of darknet market currency. The birthplace of Bitcoin.
-Samourai Wallet, one of the largest Bitcoin coinjoin projects, introduced Monero atomic swaps recently.
-Most FOSS privacy projects and businesses accept payment in Monero. Some purchases and donations largely come from Monero. (Tor, IVPN, Mullvad, SimpleLogin, AnonAddy, SimpleX, Molly, GrapheneOS, Silent Link, CoinCards, ShopInBit, etc)
-Most prominent privacy educators and content creators accept Monero donations. Some exclusively (Seth For Privacy, Gabriel Custodiet, Mental Outlaw, The Hated One, Rafael LaVerde, Naomi Brockwell, Surveillance Report, Rehrar, Sam Bent, Juraj Bednar, etc)
-Ethereum developers are developing atomic swaps with Monero
-BCH just finished a Monero atomic swap
-DarkFi is merge mining with Monero
-Tor implemented a PoW algorithm to help against DDOS based off a similar mining algorithm to Moneros


This is true. Privacy will always be a an arms race. Even offchain  methods, like LN, aren't fool-proof. Encrypted data can be actively recorded by adversaries and kept to break in the future. Practically speaking, as long as privacy tech keeps progressing and gives old blockchain data privacy for long enough spans, it doesn't really matter if it can be broken in distant futures as the users will be long gone and the relatively recent data will be on better privacy tech.

The differences in scaling capabilities between Monero vs Bitcoin, or even Lightning, look the same from above when we're talking about 10s, 100s of millions or billions of users. None of them can get anywhere close to that.

If Bitcoin, in it's greater popularity and userbase, has time to figure it out, then so does Monero even more so.

There are solutions available *right now* that would easily scale both like MimbleWimble or DAGs. But that change is very unlikely to happen on Bitcoin...Monero on the other hand is more flexible with changes if/when need be. So it has that advantage.


"...stack btc"

I don't think anyone here is saying that. You both agree.


Great cryptographer