If the only solution for Bitcoiners to have private payments is custodians (be it e-cash, Fedimints, etc. as is all the rage) then Bitcoin will simply be dead for me. Feels like the ultimate cop-out.

Custody is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Custody not only opens up immense risk for loss of funds, it also makes these tools far less resilient to adversarial environments.

Can "they" stop every Bitcoiner from keeping 12 words safe? No.

Can "they" stop a few popular mints from operating? Absolutely.


I don’t think of mints in terms of the ONLY choice, but I like that they’re on the menu. The have use cases that don’t suck.


General rule: if you’re waiting for Bitcoin to change, prepare to be disappointed


Agreed but this isn’t so much about bitcoin as it is about how we use bitcoin.


this is their boat also/out with the old & in with the new


Good luck trying to take down tons of anonymous mints running somewhere on the globe behind Tor. No need for shitcoins.


What’s your recommendation for silent payments? Is it still mainly accessible via beta on cake wallet?


Bitcoin is a protocol and an asset, and both are close to impossible to change.

I would be shocked if there was ever consensus on a base layer protocol change to add privacy features, especially considering how relatively mature Bitcoin is.

If that is a dealbreaker, Bitcoin is a voluntary system. No one will force you to use it.

I personally think problems with the current layered model or even Bitcoin privacy in general are greatly overstated.

These things do not exist in a vacuum - compare them to our current financial system and you will see how incredibly superior it is.


Yeah, I don’t see a way to get base layer single user privacy without sacrificing auditability of the chain.

But default privacy is more about the software written to use bitcoin. Wallet software some day will have coin join or something similar baked into the cake.


Same timeline: tons of anonymous mints rugging users because it's literally free money.

Incentives are so broken in ecash.


Yeah just closed beta Cake for now but out publicly soon.

That will be the go to for a while it looks like!


This is kind of how I'm starting to feel. The rush to more custodians is really fucking stupid.

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Maybe! You would need a way to coordinate inputs and outputs still. Coinjoins can also be expensive.

Most transactions won’t be done on L1, period. If we take that as a given, I personally think privacy on second layers makes by far the most sense.


Calling Monero a shitcoin is really ignorant, number one, and number two, have you considered that ecash is a shitcoin? It's just an IOU for bitcoin.

Are you really saying you prefer random digital bits from random people all over the globe, because somehow indirectly it's related to Bitcoin, even though it's ruggable, just so you don't have to use a different coin?

Peak dogma.


the new generation of Bitcoiners seems to very confused.


*"to be" even


This way exists. See https://www.moneroinflation.com


Not every coin is a shitcoin and some of them have justified utility. The rest are just shit-tokens minted on actual 3rd party shitcoin blockchains.

not a chain. not a coin.


agreed


I don’t believe I’ve seen that argument except by the “privacy is bad for muh regulatory environment” suits. I’ve only seen ecash recommended for small amounts, even by the most pro-privacy people.


People have to adapt with what is available. Isn’t going into a non kyc custodial wallet then exiting like a coin mix?


fully agree.


The line has already been crossed with Lightning. Almost everybody is using custodial wallets because self hosted lightning is a pain in the ass and the fees are nowhere near a few sats if you don't use the same wallets everybody uses.

The whole generation of number go up bitcoiners does not even get the most basic concepts of why bitcoin was cool back in the days.

P2P currency. Not your keys, not your coins. At the beginning even a certain level  of privacy.

What do we have now? Paypal like Banks on Bitcoin.


monero is available.


they are just plain number go up idiots


Liquid is owned by a company which collects all the fees. And they will rat you out when the government knocks at their door. Samson Mow is not going to jail for you.


Not enough people/businesses accept monero


I am a plain number of utxo’s in self custody go up idiot thank you very much


I fully agree. I also now believe, thanks to talking to a few people and broadening my opinions on ecash, is that it's just a temporary holding. You shouldn't use it for large amounts or for large periods of time. Use it to peg in and out almost immediately. Could you still get rugged? Absolutely. But if you only keep your funds in the custodian for 60 seconds, you're probably going to be okay.


Isn't Cake a Shitcoin wallet?


Maintained by mostly Monero folks


Controversial opinion: Bitcoin has had privacy since genesis. Requires anonymity.
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Bitcoin on chain scaling solved yet?
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Also most people dont place much value in privacy. We have enough trouble telling people bitcoin isn't just money laundering / drug money / terrorism financing. Imagine explaining Monero to them.


Nyms can build up/lose reputation too?


LOL imagine that conversation


Truth. Ecash is cypherpunk af for specific purposes and small amounts but no way would I feel comfortable holding significant funds with a mint.


yes


Interesting that a "Shitcoin wallet" is the first mover on this. Says a lot about the state  of the bitcoin space.


you can buy an anonymous debit card with monero for zero fees through cake wallet


be like most people, get what most people get.


i could answer "sucks to be you" but i do not do this.


so you can have funds which can not be moved. much wow.


Link?


So you use Bitcoin for savings and monero for spending?


I think you mean "number spendable from my utxos go up" unless you like collecting dust!


install cake wallet


This one?
https://m.primal.net/IKrg.jpg


If the only solution for Bitcoiners to have private payments is custodians (be it e-cash, Fedimints, etc. as is all the rage) then Bitcoin will simply be dead for me. Feels like the ultimate cop-out.

Custody is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Custody not only opens up immense risk for loss of funds, it also makes these tools far less resilient to adversarial environments.

Can "they" stop every Bitcoiner from keeping 12 words safe? No.

Can "they" stop a few popular mints from operating? Absolutely.


Well, that means that when you start using Monero, you will be one more person. And then the next person will have one last person to say that about.


I use Monero for savings and Monero for spending. I own no other cryptos.


Why for savings?


Because I'd rather the world not know how much I have in my savings account.


How would they know if you got it non kyc?


You'd have to make sure to do absolutely everything at all times, non KYC, because if I transferred money from my savings account to my checking account and then spent it on, say, a domain, for example, then my savings and checking are both now known with KYC.


Idk what you mean by savings account. If you hold non kyc bitcoin for savings, you can just swap to monero when you want to spend it right?


On-chain bitcoin doesn't scale to 8 billion people, so there will be layers and custodians. Why can't we have mints like we have relays, the more the merrier?


I’m not qualified to assess how or if the claim is true, but I suspect there’s a big trade off in transaction size.


I still think L1 privacy will matter. But it’s gotta be reasonably priced to matter. Otherwise only bad people will use it.


> only bad people will use it

That is the trap they are setting. How about: only people who deem privacy important enough will use it.


Yeah, you can. But why would you want anybody being able to view your savings account balance, even if they don't know it's you? It just seems like a bad idea to have regular users having their net worth publicly showable online.


It’s not your net worth. It’s just one utxo. And it’s pseudonymous so no one knows it belongs to you. Don’t reuse addresses.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply giving the normal person perspective. Most people still store their wealth (if any) in fiat, have 0 financial privacy, and have the full risk of rug/censorship by their bank. Most do this despite knowing about Bitcoin, "crypto", etc.


So just like Bitcoin in 2010...


Yes, and a regular person is never going to make the mistake of transferring money from their savings account to something that has KYC on them. It's just too easy to dox yourself on total accident then to keep Bitcoin private. You as a privacy person on Bitcoin have to think, did I use that address? Does this address I'm going to send to have any way of linking to me with KYC? Are these funds tainted? A Monero user just presses send and doesn't have to worry about that.


Most people allow their calculator app to access their location 😂


Yes, back when Bitcoin making a change from the corrupt cartels and cronies to give human freedom back.


I’m just speaking about you specifically. The people that care about privacy will put the time in to learn. Privacy isn’t for the average normie. Not because they don’t deserve it but because they don’t care.

My wallet has coin control so it shows me which addresses I spend from and I have them labeled so I know where they came from. The only time you would spend that money is when you’d swap for monero. You wouldn’t kyc yourself doing that. Idk it’s up to you what you do with your money but you’ve missed out on gains holding monero.


Most people think cookies are fun internet points 💀


How have I missed out on gains? One Monero is still worth one Monero. It hasn't changed in value at all. If you're talking about Fiat, then we're talking to totally different stories. I don't care about Fiat. I want more Monero. People who look at the price want more fiat, and that's just not the point.


They think relevant ads are a sign from the universe to buy something 😂


We all want more purchasing power. Bitcoin gives you more purchasing power. You’d be able to buy more stuff today if you saved in bitcoin.


Drivechains


And that wouldn't be a bad thing at all, except for the privacy implications. It makes it a total non-starter.


No one here vouching for Monero has missed out on any gains. We were here since the very beginning.

The question you need to ask yourself is, WHEN you care more for your safety than another fiat multiplier.

Fast forward 10 years from now, when BTC will have reached its full investment potential and behaves more like boring paper traded gold. Still see no value in privacy for your wealth?

Sooner or later any Bitcoiner will come around to Monero. Why do you think fiat offshore accounts exist?


Dude if you get $100 worth of bitcoin non kyc, it’ll sit in one address. Next month you can get another $100 in bitcoin that will sit in a different address. They are not linked together so no one knows your net worth. The amount will never change. No one knows it belongs to you except the seller and that’s only if the seller knows who you are. You can leave it there for 10 years and nothing will happen to your privacy. Then when you want to spend it, swap for monero.


To be fair though, if you want to save in Bitcoin and spend in Monero, that is perfectly acceptable. It's just not acceptable for me.


Yall missed out on a lot of gains what are you talking about lol you can use Bitcoin privately or swap to monero when you want to spend idk man do whatever you want lmao https://image.nostr.build/9ed974352056324783b5c995b977aed45860d0749823231974ad3ab65eb32f65.jpg


I see, the maxi fallacy that one can only own one coin at a time and also only starting in 2018.

When I say we have been here since the very beginning I don't mean 2018. I mean the early days of Bitcoin. How do you think we could have come up with Monero ten years ago without using studying and examining Bitcoin beforehand?


Right, and I ended up sending you another reply and just saying that if you want to save in Bitcoin and spend in Monero, then I see no problem with that. But it's personally not the way I've chosen to do things.


Taxes will diminish your purchasing power. That's why rich dudes store value in offshore banks giving a fuck about inflation.

Everything is relative.


Never said you can only use one coin. I said you can save in bitcoin and spend in monero if you don’t trust bitcoin.


Relatively speaking, you’d still have more purchasing power after taxes in bitcoin than monero 🤷♂


I guess we agree more than we disagree then.

I used to be 100% BTC. Now I am mostly XMR. And I know for a fact that I am not the only one experiencing this phenomenon. It is a slow shift in valuing different aspects more over others.


For now. Imagine what KYC, meta data and AI can do for your pseudonymous BTC addresses in 10 years from now.


Sad state of affairs


If the only solution for Bitcoiners to have private payments is custodians (be it e-cash, Fedimints, etc. as is all the rage) then Bitcoin will simply be dead for me. Feels like the ultimate cop-out.

Custody is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Custody not only opens up immense risk for loss of funds, it also makes these tools far less resilient to adversarial environments.

Can "they" stop every Bitcoiner from keeping 12 words safe? No.

Can "they" stop a few popular mints from operating? Absolutely.


most people are slaves. it is fine for me if they are happy with it.

i am not.


most people take an experimental gene therapy which does not protect against infection and transmission and then want to force others to do the same.


you seem to know more about liquid than me.

i just dont see any point in using a technology where my funds can be seized or censored if i don't jump through 10 hoops just to access and  spend the money i exchanged for my lifetime.

i just convert my btc into monero and never look back.


why not use ethereum then? or any other blockchain controlled by some dudes. or just a bank account.

what is the advantage you gain with using liquid?


yep


Pegging in and then immediately out does almost nothing for privacy. The longer you stay in the mint the better. Breaking the peg out into different amounts at random times is helpful too.


Bitcoin's doing a thing I don't like and I say NO MORE! Stop it, you naughty unstoppable thing.

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Blinded path and PTLC would make LN payment much more private. Not perfectly private but enough if you are not an Al Capone type of criminal


"If the only solution"

It's not, though, is it?

Therefore bla bla bla.


No. I really mean bad people are the only people who will use unreasonably priced privacy.


It almost mid 2024 and things are already moving fast.

Devs are gone either doing dark stuff for money or become like satoshi.

People see more and more what its mean to not have hardblocks for parasite that hijack everything u make. W price get pump up by infinite money, people will leave bitcoin to those middlemens and let them enjoy bitcoin like in stocks market. Where everything is rigged.

Bitcoin will go to 100M but will become like eth. Few will use it.


Let see when bitcoin will become illegal without kyc XD.


The government doesn’t determine which transactions get mined


What use case do you see for money which you can only hold for 60 seconds? Hot potato contest?


you don't hold it in the wallet for long because you're just using it for privacy. you once you receive nuts you immediately exchange for sats by sending them to your own wallet.


lets say you buy something ( completely legal of course ) on the darknet, the seller need to immediately go to the mint and redeem it for lightning satoshis in that case?


also, can't the mint just log which token they issued and the users ip address?  for example a mint run by the feds as a honeypot?


I think so?


Yes


So for example, politically persecuted people are all bad?


so it is private, depending on the goodwill and honesty of the mint, which might be a honeypot, or rug pulling. Trust third parties, don't verify seems to be the new future of finance.

i do not understand this generation of bitcoiners anymore, maybe they got one vaccination too many...


Ecash is a way to get rugged privately, unless you move in and out immediately.


I love private rugging, this is so intimate.

This is how we win!


The ux for fedimints is dope, one click entering/exiting a private bank.

Most people won't bother to secure their own keys anyways.
Not only do you need 100 hours studying it you need like $100 in hardware and seed plates, make that $300+ for a decent lightning node.
Fairytale protocol changes aren't going to appear either so we're stuck with chaumian mints might as well make the most of it.


I hope this problem brings bitcoiners out of the Minecraft server and into real life.

Although it's a rough solution with regulatory uncertainty.

I think maybe we're going to need the ETFs to rug or fork before people find value in fedimints


fuck that, i just use monero.


I have some old xmr wallets it's an interesting protocol but I don't think it can scale the way Bitcoin captured the energy grid because xmr is sustained by FPGAs and hidden ASICs/botnets.
To properly go Moore's law asic would be a decade of disruption.
To fork Bitcoin would be more than anyone wants to deal with.

idk what do you think?
I'd support monero more of they abandoned asic resistance


Oh, but they sure as hell can. They can get together and tell the miners in their country they either have to shut down or not mine these transactions. And if those are more than 51% of all mining power, then that's it. Even if your transaction gets mined, they could just orphan the block.


There are a lot of countries in the world with anonymous miners. They don’t all just do whatever our government wants them to do. The fee market incentivizes miners to not censor. As the number of censored transactions rises, the incentive to mine them grows. If those transactions don’t go through, the price could suffer and the miners would be shooting themselves in the foot.


That is a fair point. How long can your transaction be delayed though? And how long can you withstand it being delayed? Is the real question? If it were your rent for, say, then you would not be able to withstand it being delayed very long.


Transactions cancel after about 2 weeks. You can also increase your fee while it is in the mempool using RBF which incentivizes more people to mine it. If all your sats were doxxed and you were being censored, it would be bad. But I don't think they would go to the miners to censor you if they knew where you lived. They could just come arrest you. Now if you are saying they will censor all non kyc sats, that is extremely difficult to accomplish. It's hard to even know what sats belong to who. How many sats are non kyc? Can you force all miners around the world to kyc all new mined sats? Also, people buy kyc sats and then send them in as donations or use them to buy things from other people. And with payjoin, it gets more difficult to track. All this does is add a lot of friction for US miners which other businesses or countries can take advantage of. Do you think America, China, and Russia will come together and agree to censor each other? We already sanctioned Russia so that clearly shows that they can't agree on everything. If the government in the US even hinted that they were going to subsidize bitcoin mining, they would open the floodgates to new bitcoin adoption. What would that do to the confidence of bond holders and the value of the dollar? Other countries would get in bitcoin and try to mine as well. It would pump the price, making mining more profitable, and add new miners to the network from different countries.

This is all very convoluted and we are just speculating about an unknown future. My belief is that the incentive to mine bitcoin is strong enough to overcome censorship. But I admit that remains to be seen. I'd like to see mining pools get more decentralized. I wish bitcoin had more privacy by default but you cant know for certain that there are only 21 million bitcoin if the blockchain isn't transparent. So pseudonymity seemed like a reasonable tradeoff.


Bitcoin fails on all promises from the early days, sadly.

- it is not decentralized, 12 mining pools have control
= it is not usable as p2p currency
- lightning is moving most users into custodial wallets
= not your keys and not your coins
- 1mb blocks are a joke, we have 2024 and a 12tb hdd costs $120
- fully transparent with zero privacy
- mints and etf's will dilute the 21m cap

Asic resistance is one of the key arguments for Monero .
Also mining by botnets creates a truly decentralized infrastructure. Botnet miners will not bend their knee to a tyrannical government.

Apart from that it is censorship resistant, has adaptable block size and fees are low. You can use it as a p2p currency.

The longer i think about it, the more it is clear to me:

Monero is the real Bitcoin and represents everything why i went into Bitcoin in the first place.

Most people will only understand its value when the government mandates to connect your digital ID to your BTC transactions.


what is botnet mining?


ya, ive always found the anonymity set too small argument made against monero to be dumb af, then the btc influencer will turn around and talk for 30 mins about how much diff one person can make for btc adoption 🫠


these anonymous debit cards are linda bs, dont you think? like if i buy one  then use it to pay any bill with ny name on it ..then its completely doxxing that i used monero or btc to buy it. i can,understand buying a giftcard and using it in store but a visa card ...seems terrible. also just perpetuates the fiat machine imo.


kinda bs*


malware infecting computers to mine monero


you forgot an n at the end of your name Moro


lol, alright man. im trying to have a convo here

✌


I think trying to advocate for Bitcoin adoption in order to make a difference is dumb. No matter how many people you orange pill, it won’t make a significant difference in price or political policy. Doing it just because you want to help others and grow your network of friends makes more sense.


a gift card does not "perpetuate the fiat machine"?

if you put your name on any bill, they know your name, no matter if your pay with cash, card, xmr or flintstones.

do i need to explain that to you?


you dont 'need' to explain anything to me.  i can barely see from up on your high horse up there sir...plenty of other people i can have a reasonable conversation with in the sea.


Hey sir, i tell you my name and you put it on your bill, am i still anonymous now?

Great conversation


I orange pilled people for many years. Now i don't do that anymore. Bitcoin will not give them freedom. Bitcoin will be part of the financial system with full surveillance. Sadly.


I agree that bitcoin doesn’t necessarily give you freedom. I think it’s a tool that can help you get freedom so I still refer to it as freedom money. But getting freedom comes down to the efforts of the individual. His mentality, his understanding of people that can hurt him, and the time he puts in to preserve his liberty. But I disagree with your other point. I think eventually fiat dies and governments won’t be able to afford to surveil everyone. It could get ugly before that happens and the ones that didn’t prepare, won’t have that freedom.

Idk if you read mandibles but toward the end of the book, the protagonist realizes that the country couldn’t actually stop people from leaving to a different jurisdiction that offered more freedom. They could only use propaganda to scare people into thinking their chips would self destruct and kill them when they crossed the border and that the other jurisdiction was a crime infested and uninhabitable disaster. They also couldn’t afford to keep military or police forces at the border to stop people from leaving. He realizes that it was all a bluff because they couldn’t afford to do anything more.


I do not know the book.

I think it is very easy and cheap for the gov to surveil everybody. In only a few years you will have mandatory digital ID.

Then they only have to write a law into their magic book that only BTC transactions connected to a digital ID are legal. If you send to somebody without that, you commit a crime and they punish you for that.

People will comply. You saw that with the covid theater. People take a experimental gene therapy just to fit in and then try to force others to do the same.

If you store your wealth in BTC which they will know, or any other asset in the banking system, you can leave the country but they will take your stuff with an exit tax.


I think those are all possible scenarios which I’ve thought of. So what’s the solution in your opinion?


build a network of like minded people
build a online business / income stream
leave while you still can
get a second passport.
look for a country which gives you more freedom or live as a perpetual traveler
invest in stuff they can not take from you
wait it out until the welfare states collapse


If you’re doing all that, Bitcoin should be fine for you right?


IMO no, at least not as an exclusive store of value. They know you have it, so they will try to get it.

The fungibility of Bitcoin sucks, i will publish something which just happened to me about "tainted coins" in the next few days.

I convert my BTC to Monero and dump the rest on Wall Street.


iirc the mint can see your ip address and lightning payments received of course, but cannot tie any amount to any particular token because the mint is blinded. If you make a lightning payment to someone outside of the mint (as opposed to trading the ecash token itself - most private way to use it) the mint can see the invoice amount and the receiver as well.

So if the mint receives a specific lightning payment for X amount and immediately after the mint is being asked to exchange some ecash to make a lightning payment for ~X amount it is very likely the same person. That's why it's best to stay awhile (to put as many transactions that could've been you in between your deposit and withdrawal) and not withdraw a similar amount that you deposited (need to use tor or a good vpn too)


Can the ip address be blinded ?


No unfortunately

You need to use tor or a vpn for that


Yea tor mixnet vpn i2p


Yep


Yep lol


but that exposes to more rug pulling risk when you have to wait longer.

also, if i understand it correctly, they can log the ip for the token they give you and they can log the ip whom the person who redeems the tokens to lightning.  so they dont know the amount but who transferred it to whom, correct?


Never heard about OFAC Sanction or what lol 🤣


Darknet is dominated by monero
Dex (real one) p2p trading dominated by monero
Gift card Market dominated by monero


It's looking more like btc got hijacked everyday lol 😆


You're 100% right both are at odds. The longer you wait the more you expose yourself to rug pulls. But if privacy and anonymity is your goal it's better to wait.

Good question. I think the only thing a mint knows is if a token is valid (or not) and all ip addresses that interact with it, but not necessarily what specific tokens your ip address is associated with since token creation is blinded if I understand correctly. This FAQ has a lot of our questions in it:

https://docs.cashu.space/faq#general-safety-and-privacy-questions


All ip addresses that interact with the mint, not any particular token*


its smaller tx size than making every spend a coinjoin on bitcoin,

and you are already trusting cryptographic assertions with bitcoin so it's unreasonable to protest the Pedersen commitments that hide amounts in monero.


any way you slice it, hopping in an out will expose the user to timing attacks which degrade privacy.

and waiting around to defeat the timing attacks exposes the user to rugpull risk.

there isnt a good solution here.


How do they know you have it if you get it non kyc?


Not in Bitcoin


i guess sooner or later they will mandate digital id for anyone who accepts btc payments. as the payments are transparent, how do you want to circumvent that?


If they could do that to Bitcoin then they would do it to monero too. But if somehow they didnt, then I’d just swap to monero and get those gift cards you mentioned.


Thank you. TLDR, need to read it completely later.

So how do i have to understand that? You have a wallet or a website you interact with, it displays you the ecash string, it has to have the ability to log that string.  I dont say it does but you have the ability to create the client in that way that it can log it, no?

Also really funny for me ( from the faq):
CAUTION: Choose mints where you trust or know and trust the operator. Use small amounts or immediately redeem tokens or swap tokens to your own mint.

Who the fuck says openly: "Hi, i am Joe Schmock, i am your friendly ecash operator running this Mint, i live in 123 Retardvillage. If you want to arrest me, just come by, i have not learned anything from the Tornado cash lawsuit. Apart from that, use my tokens so you can buy drugs anonymously online. Love to you all. "

Am i getting something completely wrong here or are they delusional?


They can not do that to Monero, that is the point.


Why not?


Because nobody can say if you own any, which addresses you have, if you have any at all.

There is a reason why ransomware payments are done in monero


They don’t need to. A fed just needs to pay for something in monero then arrest the business owner for not complying with KYC. Make an example out of a few businesses then everyone else will be too scared to touch monero.

An old Chinese proverb says, “kill one, warn a thousand.”


if they know who is the seller, see darknet markets.


I don’t use the darknet markets. Tell me how I can use monero to buy steak from the grocery store.


me not either. why would you buy a steak with monero?


Isn’t that the point of money lol


Why not push for payjoin to become widely used as default on wallets?


ok.


So when they force digital ID on everyone and businesses require it, how can I buy steak, electricity, gas, medicine?


If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.


I actually thought this conversation was going somewhere productive but it sounds like you don’t have an answer. If they force digital ID on everyone, which is very difficult to do, then your little monero gift card swapping platform would also be forced to comply. Then your monero privacy becomes worthless.


Sadly let me remind you OFAC Sanction of Transaction started in btc first in the world


Which utxos are sanctioned?


There is something called brave search or try using Twitter for smooth brain these days

Easy to search info lol


Burden of proof is on you. You made the claim so provide evidence for it.


No it's not my job to spoon feed free info that peeps are too lazy to search lol 🤣


Without providing any evidence, your claims are worthless. Have a good day.


the conversation and your questions are actually pretty boring.

it does not require a high iq to imagine that there will be people who do not comply, like people buying drugs now or evade taxes nowadays. if they use a value transfer system which allows them to stay anonymous, they can do their own thing. if they use a public ledger without privacy, they can not. hard to get?


Here Type OFAC Sanction in Nostr Search enough info for even dumb dumb children to know basic stuff lol 🤣


Logical fallacy: moving the goal posts. I asked a simple question, don’t change the subject.

How can I buy things that are really important and essential to my life like steak, gas, and medicine? I don’t need things from the darknet. I know some people will not comply but most will and that is a problem. So how do I get those things that I need with monero if they require digital ID from everyone?


The first 3 articles I searched made no mention of Bitcoin. You’re wasting my time.


That's not how Nostr Search of topics work lol 🤣


Okay then provide your evidence or I’m muting you


Bitcoin was BUILT on #civildisobedience  Grow a pair; disobey.


Matt Corallo : It’s not that I’m a fan of the nuclear option, but rather that I have no *other* ideas if things like Sv2/p2pool don’t get adoption. We’ve been at this for a decade and it’s been a massive problem for a decade.

Edit : now good luck following the same btc dev who created all the mess lol 🤣


If u still can't search after this then you are in btc land special case lol 🤣


I understand that. You seem to not understand the context of what I was saying.


This makes zero sense and is not evidence that bitcoin transactions have been censored due to ofac. You must be retarded. Have a nice day.


Too lazy to even search lol you sure are in btc land special case lol 🤣😂


You lucky you seem not yet to have met #theCabal  in full extermination mode #covert  #occultwarfare  ... Your time will come.  Choices.  Not easy choices.  I took the hard choices, to do the hard things; remain free.  I'm £33,000,000,000,000 or so in #remotetorture  to #suicide  later.  I'm still free. ;)


ps I know them well #BritishArmy  trained #warfighter  and ... I #knowmyenemy  ... And tip:  they'll exterminate you harder if you're a wimp.

They have no respect for people, who won't even fight to protect their very own life (never mind others' lives).


"How can I buy things that are really important and essential to my life like steak, gas, and medicine?"

OK. You want serious responses? nostr:nprofile1qyghwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnhd9hx2tcpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtcpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt4w35ku7thv9kxcet59e3k7mf0qyghwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qyv8wumn8ghj7cmjv4shgu3wdehhxarj9emkjmn99uq35amnwvaz7tms09exzmtfvshxv6tpw34xze3wvdhk6tcpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68yct5dyhxxmmd9uq3jamnwvaz7tmhv4kxxmmdv5hxummnw3ezuamfdejj7qgcwaehxw309ahx7um5wgh8xmmkvf5hgtngdaehgtcpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtcpzamhxue69uhkzarvv9ejumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctv9uq36amnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwd46hg6tw09mkzmrvv46zucm0d5hsz9nhwden5te0v4jx2m3wdehhxarj9ekxzmny9uq3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwd4hhxarj9ec82c30qyt8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnyv96xztngv96hxtcpzdmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujue3h0ghxjme0qyfhwumn8ghj7ur4wfcxcetsv9njuetn9uq3jamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwdehhxamgv4ex2tnrdakj7qgwwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkctcprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qguwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxy6t5vdhkjmnsv9exktnrdakj7qg4waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t09uq32amnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wdau8gu3wv3jhvtcprpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuendwsh8w6t69e3xj730qyv8wumn8ghj7enfd36x2u3wdehhxarj9emkjmn99uq35amnwvaz7tmsw4exzanfv3sjumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcqypzlr9w0ljuvjujwlsjg7pg85taktdtem7470nf48xzes93u4dmzw5c3k7z  2 of those are not essential; grow up little boy in warzone.


You’re taking my replies to another conversation out of context. I’m not interested in being a soldier. I know I don’t NEED those things but I want those things. I want steak and a good quality of life. If I can’t have that, then I’ll leave the jurisdiction and live somewhere that treats me better. We can practice civil disobedience but it has limitations. The majority of people will comply. That’s reality. You can’t change that. If you think arguing with nyms on nostr will wake up the world to tyranny and educate everyone on the importance of privacy, then you must be retarded.

But that’s not what we are arguing about. I was asking the monero shill how monero is better for me than bitcoin if the state implements a digital ID. He failed to explain that. So GFY. muted.


For those interested in my reply (not Mahood, but ...).

"You’re
 taking my replies to another conversation out of context. "  Maybe, shame you missed the apology for doing so through the #mute.  ;)

"I’m not
interested in being a soldier. "  Few are, but when extermination by military means comes unwanted through the wall ... It's already too late to be taking decisions about what you might do.

"I know I don’t NEED those things but I
want those things. I want steak and a good quality of life. If I can’t
have that, then I’ll leave the jurisdiction and live somewhere that
treats me better. "  Oh so clueless about #GlobalDictatorship  (which is ... ironic considering the point he thinks he was trying to make).

"We can practice civil disobedience but it has
limitations."  Incorrect.  Logical conclusion (if you're upset enough) is of course #RightToRevolt  (enshrined in law if you're a US citizen).

"The majority of people will comply. That’s reality. You
can’t change that. "

Look what happened during #COVID  ... no arguments on your above.   But I have #NaturalLaw  rights.

"If you think arguing with nyms on nostr will wake up
the world to tyranny and educate everyone on the importance of privacy,
then you must be retarded.   "

No retarded people call people names on social media and then mute them.

(that's a form of #abuse).  #HitAndRun  Nice.

  "But that’s not what we are
arguing about. I was asking the monero shill how monero is better for me
 than bitcoin if the state implements a digital ID. He failed to explain
 that. So GFY. muted."

I tried.  He's just another clueless ... set to die.  Why?

There's only two types of people in a warzone;

1) the hunter;
2) the hunted.

Choose wisely.   Whilst nostr: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  ... runs ...

(back to the enemy, I personally never found wise).


Mainchains do not scale even with 12tb drives.
If zaps had to be written on everyone's node that would fill up quick.

Monero works as a niche, but with a large amount of success it'll crumble.
The ASIC resistance will be regularly cracked when there's market incentive to do so.
The blockchain size will be stupid and unpredictable if it became popular.

I used to be on the ASIC resistance side back in 2017 but learned how difficult it is to keep fair.
I'd rather the rules be set and the market competes.

I run Bitcoin the og way, its possible with a few hundred dollars and hours.


you are interpreting stuff i did not write


Hey daddy, tell me what to think!


dont waste your time on that kid, he is some low iq loser who can not think for himself, i muted him.


If the only solution for Bitcoiners to have private payments is custodians (be it e-cash, Fedimints, etc. as is all the rage) then Bitcoin will simply be dead for me. Feels like the ultimate cop-out.

Custody is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Custody not only opens up immense risk for loss of funds, it also makes these tools far less resilient to adversarial environments.

Can "they" stop every Bitcoiner from keeping 12 words safe? No.

Can "they" stop a few popular mints from operating? Absolutely.


if they have the miners they can.


Dony read only the bold characters XD
This is not a len,k==>chainalysis.com/blog/ofac-sanctions/


Who talk about the sats, they will only go to the green and red address.

If ur keys are kyc and u are know u are green.
if ur keys are non kyc u will be targeted by any agency and get u an ID or go to jail.

Like always it won happen in one take. Just some turn up time to time the heat.


So if i follow ur reply Mahdood, bitcoin mining are not decentralize.
And privacy is lacking, is that correct ?


what an individual miners aka anon can do against big corrupt money and infinite money that pay those big miners ? Remember its all about hash power in bitcoin mining. A pretty big gape in mining security.


But u will go to jail w shady stuff on ur back.
tornado cash, samourai, and all list of ofac


Cheers for the tip.  I found the mute button for the first time too.  Nice. :)


No, you're not delusional, it is definitely a concern. Users will be more willing to trust known mint runners with a good reputation, but that makes the mints easier targets for the state. Anon mint runners would be harder to find, but easier for them to rugpull users without consequence.

The arguments I hear are that federated mints would at least make it harder to rug users, ability to quickly spin up/move mints to better jurisdictions, and to only keep spending cash on it them - not large amounts you can't afford to lose.

Even though I think the strong privacy/offchain/instant aspects of ecash is cool the major problem I have a hard time getting past is reintroducing trusted intermediates again when the whole point of Bitcoin was to remove them


Yep


OFAC blocks sanction & empty blocks attacks are very popular attact surface for sure on surveillance coins like btc


What happens when tomorrows 12TB is how we look at 12GB today?

All of what you say heavily depends on the rate of adoptions and if it remains a niche doesnt it?

Consumer tech is not static and technological development is not static either.
i.e. implementing bulletproofs shrunk Monero transaction size by ~80%

You're basically saying Monero will suddenly become so successful that it will break (a problem that is also possible for Bitcoin and more likely for it's popularity). What a great problem to have. And if it doesn't gain that crazy level of success (most likely case) then what is the problem? It still remains a useful tool for many.

https://image.nostr.build/f3d4dc2a45d469b1ba3c7f7dad2ec4fb47303d7f53cae9e671f774c31d2ea379.jpg


Same. Especially considering ~95% of Bitcoiners KYC and don't coinjoin let alone every spend. They speak as if all Bitcoin is their anon set when in reality it is a microscopic fraction of their peers coinjoining with them.


You still don't understand that Bitcoin & Monero are ultimately black market money (the only markets that are permissionless) and it's entire premise relies on that. Any honeymoon period is fleeting. We already see them cracking down with recent events.

The state can make any arbitrary rules they want on white market transactions  including banning Bitcoin and Monero.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle


Totally, trusting a FEDerated mint is like trusting the FED. There are also a bunch of people i dont know who say they only have my wellbeing in mind and i should trust them. Where is the difference?

I have read the page you sent me and i have played around with ecash, what i do not understand at all - you get a string from a mint, send it to somebody else and he goes to the mint and pastes that string into a textarea on the mints website.

So the mint can log the ip of who gets the string and the ip of who redeems the string and where is the great privacy in that?

Also the faq you sent me did not answer this question to me.


Also nobody said you need to make the blockchain 12tb now.

Just holding on to the 1mb block size because somebody wants to be able to run a node on a $50 usd raspberry pie or his apple watch and every user on the network needs to suffer from high fees, slow transaction times, terrible self hosted lightning onboarding etc. is just a completely retarded argument.

Just like Bill Gates said in the 80s, 640kb of ram should be enough for everybody...

Scaling the block size to 10mb or so would solve so many problems, help the bitcoin adoption tremendously, make it cheap to open lightning channels, move away from custodial wallets etc.

But, when a majority of the developers is paid by companies which have direct incentives to keep the blocksize small so they can sell their solutions ( Blockstream, Lightning Labs etc. ), this obviously does not happen.

That people say Bitcoin is decentralized when it is actually controlled by a few entities is a mystery to me.


I’ve read this before and I don’t disagree with it. But you missed the context of my comment. I was trying to make that guy prove to me how monero is better off than bitcoin if the government requires digital ID for all purchases. I can’t pay for things like steak, medicine, or my electric bill privately.


These are sanctioned addresses that custodial services are supposed to block. This doesn’t block the addresses or wallets from going into the next bitcoin block. Although that is within the realm of possibilities, I haven’t seen it happen yet. I already mentioned that this can happen before. You should read the entire thread. The government could subsidize mining and take over riot, marathon, and the other big mining businesses then filter out those sanctioned addresses from blocks. However, I also said that the fee market is what determines censorship resistance in money. This is all speculation but if the government announced it was going to subsidize mining, that would legitimize bitcoin to the world. The price would pump and other governments would jump in to mine as well. This inevitably would weaken the dollar which is not what the government would want to do. Other countries like Russia and Iran would rush to gain hash power to prevent the US from sanctioning them. More countries would encourage mining businesses to operate in order to profit and a lot would welcome miners from the US. And as the price of bitcoin goes up, the demand for dollars declines. The government would need to print more money to keep subsidizing and censoring blocks which would drive more people away from dollars and into Bitcoin. They’re shooting themselves in the foot and destroying their currency. In order to be censorship resistant, the censored transactions would have to bid higher fees to incentivize mining those transactions. As those fees get higher, rogue miners go online. This is similar to how “illegal” drug dealers pop up when it becomes profitable to do so. I think this type of government attack will fail. But it remains to be seen.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Censorship-Resistance-Property


people constantly made an argument during the blocksize wars stating "we can't go to 1 TB blocksize by next tuesday so let's not do a blocksize increase at all." it was a stupid thing to say


I see
fair enough


Yea a lot was really stupid, a lot was propaganda and censorship, a lot of promises and vaporware. Now we are here and Bitcoin is fucked.


Lol 0% improvement? can't take you seriously.
There's hours and hours of discussion on this back in 2017.


It is 2024 and we still have a ridiculously small block size which gets treated like the golden cow which can not be changed.

There was a lot of discussion in 2017, a lot of it was false promises, vaporware and lies.


The only other thing I would add is that since their core use is black markets you would want to turn the anonymity and privacy dials up as much as possible because it becomes an information war.

Whatever fulfills that role of shielding users whether it is some Bitcoin layer, or Monero, or some other crypto that carries that torch (if Bitcoin & Monero drop the ball) will become the most used. The name doesn't really matter.

With the way large western global institutions talk about things like "carbon pollution"...you might only be able to source steak from black markets in some places in the future. Who knows.


0% improvement on that specific metric.

Are you saying TPS has increased?
And if it has increased, has it kept up anywhere even close to advancements in tech and and consumer hardware/bandwidth?

We can emphatically say HELL NO


yeah wallet format, segwit, batching, etc. all mainchain throughput increases done with a soft fork.
This isn't even talking about the different layers which unlock a whole lot more.

Trying to keep up with hardware through hard forks was never going to work.
There's a reason why Bitcoin mogs everyone else.
Keeping data for frivolous transactions doesn't scale.
Eth was smug as hell until they ran into a wall.
If xmr ever gets going they'll do the same.


Was obviously talking about on chain (which greatly affects lightning being usable as we always see when blocks get full onchain). Layers don't carry over the same fundamental properties that make on chain great. You always sacrifice some form of sovereignty like self-custody or permissionless txs so far.

You say that, but still havent explained why.
Why couldn't Bitcoin even increase it conservatively based off whatever metric was it's bottleneck (just behind bandwidth for example?)

If that is your worry, why hasn't Bitcoin adopted MimbleWimble? MW is even more scalable on chain than even Bitcoin itself. Litecoin already did all the work.


If the only solution for Bitcoiners to have private payments is custodians (be it e-cash, Fedimints, etc. as is all the rage) then Bitcoin will simply be dead for me. Feels like the ultimate cop-out.

Custody is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed. Custody not only opens up immense risk for loss of funds, it also makes these tools far less resilient to adversarial environments.

Can "they" stop every Bitcoiner from keeping 12 words safe? No.

Can "they" stop a few popular mints from operating? Absolutely.


Why not have both parties connect using TOR?


At this point its already known that countrys mine bitcoin as part of their "cover ops". So they wont come up and say they are mining.

so govs take control of major electrical grid and mine w it. Then introduce kyc to anyone. The fees are not matter at this point. Individual mining doesnt matter also as this point. What matter is who win those blocks, which country win those blocks.

They wont be an annoncement about gov financing/mining bitcoin, they also wont legitimize it 'cuz law around the world are "different". And like in those HW they will choose who is in and who is out.


Sure you can do that. But the more hoops you need to jump through in order to get privacy, the more points of failure you have and the more likely it is that you make a mistake over time.

And having to trust a third party for privacy is a mistake in the first place IMO.


The different layers are either overpromised as hell, like self hosted Lightning (neither has the low fees which were promised, nor is it easy to use when you need to manage your own channels)

Or they are owned by companies which take all transaction fees, like Liquid and they will censor your stuff when the Government wants them to.

So it pushes users into custodial wallets and custodial sidechains. There goes your freedom to transact, censorship resistance and self custody.

Welcome to the new bank, just like the old bank but with a new brand name.


This is all speculation about an unknown future. I see things play out differently from you and I plan around that. There is no sense in arguing about things no one can predict. But we have to be prepared to live with the consequences of being wrong. What if the bitcoiners end up being right? Would you be okay missing all those gains? If the answer is yes then you have nothing to worry about. But if the answer is no then maybe consider holding some just in case. No one can guarantee its success or demise. We can only do the best we can with the information we have available to us today.


There are few privacy enabling tools that actually work that don't need TOR to function. Monero is probably the only one I am aware of because of dandelion.


FYI Dandelion only protects you from other nodes that are communicating and only if you are running your own node. It doesn't protect you from your ISP. So, you still need Tor/Proxies/VPNs/Mixnets to protect you from your ISP and/or if you're using a remote node


So it doesn't use encryption to relay the transaction until the dandelion decides to make it public?


So this is how I understand it. Hopefully I can explain it correctly.

Everything is still encrypted like normal of course. Dandelion only protects you from malicious nodes on the network knowing what node broadcasted a transaction.

But your ISP would still know you were the one who broadcasted a transaction (they still wouldn't be able to see amounts/receivers). Does that make sense?


Damn. Is there a way to get monero running in start9? We need that.


Not sure, but all you have to do to protect yourself from your ISP is use Tor or at least a good VPN. But even if you didn't, all they would know is you used Monero. They wouldn't know how much Monero you sent or who received it.


It's already there

https://marketplace.start9.com/monerod


Good to know


Start9 will run monerod over TOR and is setup using the community marketplace. You then connect your client to your start9 server.

https://github.com/kn0wmad/monerod-startos/blob/master/docs/guides.md/monero-gui.md


Bam!


im not in something for the greed.

Its abvious what its happening, bitcoin will never be use by a lot of people. So let see where the greed will lead. XD