The problem with each individual npub muting botfarms is that they're going to end up with gigantic mute-lists.


does the longer the mute list, the bigger the cache become a problem with user experience, slowing it down etc?


Wait, how do I know you're not a Bot?
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimgix.ranker.com%2Fuser_node_img%2F50094%2F1001870034%2Foriginal%2Freverse-vampires-photo-u1%3Fw%3D650%26q%3D50%26fm%3Dpjpg%26fit%3Dcrop%26crop%3Dfaces&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=2fcb4cd178633e098405ccfdd0310ae18015d21a542d96d8e3c8619fa96aa6ea&ipo=images


Yes, unless they do it at query level and are very clever with the query design.

They have to use the mute list to filter the feed, notifications, DMs, etc., so they have to pass the data past it. Longer it is, the longer it takes.


Why's that a problem?


Npubs could end up with hundreds or thousands of mutelist entries. Longer than their follow list.


YOLO


1) Performance
2) Impossible to read the list, anymore.


Enough, you convinced me 😅


I just accidentally muted someone and went to unmute, and it's like... Damn, like looking for a needle in a haystack. 😂


3) network and storage load - both follow and mute lists in some cases are exceeding single figure kilobytes in size, this is a problem


I think the eventual solution will be relay ‘Allowlists’. For the absolute minimum ’allow’ you might have to do a PoW at a certain difficulty. That’ll cut out the bots.


That's true. Some relays will eventually cut off long mute lists, as well, as they have max-event-size.


Yeah, whitelisting instead of blacklisting. Easier.


half a megabyte is probably typical, but i can see that being reduced

there is also data storage strategies that could at least shrink those long strings of repeating pubkeys down to small, varint references, and existing data stores have compression to reduce such duplication of data but at some point the network is gonna be the big pain point


Ah so clearing the mute list of inactive npubs could help performance. Interesting


Do you still have the tool that shows who muted who?


Its being done for one npub only, in the client. That really isn't much to ask of a device made in the last 20 years. Even sqlite should be near-realtime, I should think...


Yup.

The nice thing about these discussions on #nostr is that they are technical and nobody is trying to appeal to an amorphous moral authority.


They already give up with my npub, sometimes. I have mutes bleed into my feed because they hide too slowly.

It works better in the clients that filter out mutes in the base query.


adding a negation to filter fields would go a long way to making that work better but the source-routing-style blacklist strategy is gonna cause big problems there too


You can see mutes in listr.lol or Nostrudel under Lists.


That is going to be a problem for gathering data for Minitru. Velvet's npub was hard to get data from, this is probably why!


It's just lists, really. So, they just need to say "include these lists and excluded these lists", right?


that would intrude a bit into the clean separation of the database, it requires an expansion of the query API, and the bigger these negation filters get the more problematic they will be for performance

probably at some point the simple filter query strategy will give way to a cleaner GraphQL syntax


Yeah, starting to outgrow the efficient complexity.


i think it is starting to outgrow using a simple numbered proposal list for the protocol specification in general, because implementation details like this actually make a big impact on what the protocol on the network level should be


we need to start thinking about Nostr 2.0 like how we have HTML 5 now


We'd end up muting a botfarm and losing the mutes for the hardcore porn and Neonazis. Decisions decisions. 😂


It's much nicer to talk about things you could do if that's what you want instead of things that everyone must do or else.


client devs are gonna be forced to pay attention to this soon as DAU keeps ticking up


DAU?


daily active users


Yeah 💯
This shit don't scale, y'all.


I take a lot of heat for that, tho. Too spergy, not moral enough. 😏


Bloom filters


Yup, I often say that ‘should’ is the worst word in the English language.


Do we need to read the list?

Performance makes sense, good point. Especially with the volume of bots.

Are you proposing a barrier that prevents bots in the first place? Some sort of filter so they don't even reach the point where they need be muted?


Well, some relays already remove them with spam filters.

I'm suggesting client settings set to whitelisting schemes, rather than blacklisting.


Right


You then need to think about discovery, so that people can find more npubs to whitelist. Otherwise, they'll get bored.


I remember there was another tool. It had throughthemetaverse in the domain name. I think there was other queries in it as well. Had it in my nostrnet .work but the domain expired. I’ll try to find it.


Ok found it 🤙🏾

https://toolstr.hitchhikersguidethroughthemetaverse.info/


Yeah. I think relays have to play a big role in filtering out botfarms. And they already are, it just isn’t a transparent process and the labor is going unpaid.


Happens to the best of us. 😐


I've noticed that paid relays don't really have this problem, or they handle it, quickly.


But you have to because Saylor is a Wizard now and everything that uses op_return is retarded and spam - every god damn wannabe cypherpunk at the moment


What is that? Sounds cool.


Ah, okay, but that would only find the ones that you were following, not the ones that you had muted.

nostr:nprofile1qythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnwdaehgu3wvfskuep0qy28wumn8ghj7un9d3shjctzd3jjummjvuhsz9thwden5te0wfjkccte9ejxzmt4wvhxjme0qydhwumn8ghj7argv4nx7un9wd6zumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qgcwaehxw309anxjmr5v4ezumn0wd68ytnhd9hx2tcqyzvmk4v3eygkvq8cg5g86v0ekk0z7lr7pxsllqpwsncag0d92l9xgxt6qmv   Is that a possible DVM?


It shows who muted a particular npub.
I agree, this would be awesome on the DVM bot 👀


The way mute lists work now is that mutes are either public or private (encrypted). Amethyst for example uses private mutes only, which is better for privacy, but also means other people, as well as external tools can't see who muted who anymore.


See NIP-51 https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/51.md


Thanks for the info!


Damus uses afaik still the old kind 30000 which complicates things even further 🥲


So I finished the cleanup. Big improvement speedwise 🤙🏾