Oddbean new post about login | logout What makes you say so?
Easy to offend, impossible to pick up the pieces
The whole world isn't a town square, theres more to connecting individuals than throwing them all together and hoping for the best.
What would you consider a better model?
Give communities the capabilities to build walls around themselves. Censorship isnt the problem, its obligated censorship from individuals who aren't aligned with my values. - i don't care what you see, i care what i see and i want to curate my feed - i want to curate a communtiy that isnt centered around hashtags. I want it on nostr because i dont want to be a walled garden, but i want only specific things on my relay/group. Let relays be some proxy for a definition of a community. The relays you belong to are your public pool - don't shit in it, don't let anyone else shit in it and uphold the same standards to everyone else in that community. Anyone who absolutely needs that functionality can have their own relays to do whatever they want.
Because nostr has no hashtags it gets excessively hard to find specific post. You could build a community perhaps even around a hashtags that a line with your values. Don't can work to your benefit.
I wish more relays had more definition to them, as well. I actually think Nostr might move that way.
I agree, I think we can each do out part to assist new nostriches to tools to use. Like recommending guides
Is it impossible because blocking / muting leaves it impossible to repair damage? Or because drama has legs and it becomes a game of telephone?
I'm condfident that the hate and harasment can be solved through better community and feed curation. WOT - great even if computationally expensive for personal curation from a set of relays (low level) relay mods - the judge with the hammer on who can or can't be in your park. (high level) these are already great tools to help curate feeds. Right now, everyone on nostr is a community of enthusiasts, but its not super cohesive in ideals. Smaller communities with tools for moderation (high and low level, cross level communication) will be the best defence for toxicity. Take the reddit model of community - even your own relays are an approximation for a community. Take care of it and keep bad actors out, do it for all the communities you intersect with, even if you arent a leader. That + WOT + relay moderation + user<->mod communications is how we find our niches and our communities on nostr. Everyone will find the right community for them, even those we see as the most toxic. nostr:nevent1qqsqgkmzd242kwhffzw9r344apelvf80n4eqrguuafrv3883s355gsqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyrwye5yxe47wtvvr9t05lhgjzy5f3qxjcl3ft09su6zvqxkwua7qvqcyqqqqqqgksz2x8
I bring this up to you Derek because when I first started roaming around nostr I kept seeing this weird thing - '@nostrplebs.com'. What is it? I go to the website and I see this https://nostrplebs.com/directory - a directory of users. This seems like a community of users on nostr that at belong to something, and they also seem knowledgable enough to have a nostr address - I'd like to be part of this. And that's how I got my nostr address. Wouldn't it be cool to see the interests of the community of "nostrplebs"? What are their technical interests, maybe they can also help other "plebs" out to learn bitcoin and nostr and contribute to a nostr-native knowledge base built from members of nostrplebs. I really can't overstate how much I think community tools are needed. I think It will be a real take off point for the protocol.
Thank you. I think this is a good model. I like WoT and think it's extremely useful. I also think @Alex Gleason's Ditto client that allows you to have feeds from Nostr address domains is a great way to build and participate in a community.
Its the unison and communication of both sides of moderation that i want to emphasize. The simplest way to do that is through exclusive relays (nostrplebs) where the paid aspect of it is already one barrier, but bad actors are then informed on by users to the relay operators to kick them off. When that fails and the relay operator/community mods won't remove the people you don't want to interact with there's WOT, another computational method to filter your feed. When WOT fails, there's manually muting. Three different scales of filtering that help eachother. Relay mod/level filtering removes 90% of bad actors to your community, this helps reduce the WOT calculation which is computationally expensive. Lastly, muting as a last resort, but by that time the pool of possible people to mute is drastically reduced. Any social media will not last if you need to manually mute hundreds of accounts. The UX isn't there because right now we assume nostr itself is one single community -> you join the centralized relays and only follow the users you care about. But this means you'll share the same streets with people opposed to you. This is not a problem of "diversity in opinions" or "being pro censorship" or however you frame it. I'll talk to anyone willing to engage in conversation, but don't come to me shouting and wishing death upon me. I don't care about the name calling, but you're clearly not in a frame of mind to communicate. Upholding intolerence of intolerence and removing bad faith communication/activity from your community will always be important. The problem is we don't have tools fine grained enough for the users, relay operators or community leaders to cururate a community and isolate from the external environment. When nostr has communities of users conpletely opposed to each other in ideals flourishing and unaware of eachother, thats when we've hit a critical mass. Fragmented and decentralized enough such that it is strengthened and can continue to exist even when its users are the pole's apart in ideals.
Community development. Unless you are speaking specificially about changes to nostr itself as a protocol, you don't need to worry or fight against censorship because it it built in. Reddit is a great community model, i think that nostr can have shades of gray when it comes to community participation which is more fine grained from what Reddit allows. Walls help bring evolution because communities develop in safety and isolation from external influences - you don't need to look further than your backpyard to understand how niches enable specialization and flourishing. Being on nostr, all this is opt in. Is a community/relay to strict/lenient for your liking? Go somewhere else. We don't need to be completely mixed in, and socially that's actually a way to really stirr up internal conflict - throw in individuals completely unaligned with the core ideals of a communtity to co-opt and break it apart from the inside. nostr:nevent1qqsqgkmzd242kwhffzw9r344apelvf80n4eqrguuafrv3883s355gsqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmqzyrwye5yxe47wtvvr9t05lhgjzy5f3qxjcl3ft09su6zvqxkwua7qvqcyqqqqqqgksz2x8
I see what you’re saying and agree with it mostly. but, nostr will die if everyone is always saying “if you don’t like it, leave” which is already what i see people say everyday to users.
I'm not trying to frame it in a "if you don't like it leave". Its more about making you find your home easier. Then when you find your home, not worry about it being invaded my bad actors
I see what you’re saying and agree with it mostly. but, nostr will die if everyone is always saying “if you don’t like it, leave” which is already what i see people say everyday to users.
I'm not trying to frame it in a "if you don't like it leave". Its more about making you find your home easier. Then when you find your home, not worry about it being invaded my bad actors
Its the unison and communication of both sides of moderation that i want to emphasize. The simplest way to do that is through exclusive relays (nostrplebs) where the paid aspect of it is already one barrier, but bad actors are then informed on by users to the relay operators to kick them off. When that fails and the relay operator/community mods won't remove the people you don't want to interact with there's WOT, another computational method to filter your feed. When WOT fails, there's manually muting. Three different scales of filtering that help eachother. Relay mod/level filtering removes 90% of bad actors to your community, this helps reduce the WOT calculation which is computationally expensive. Lastly, muting as a last resort, but by that time the pool of possible people to mute is drastically reduced. Any social media will not last if you need to manually mute hundreds of accounts. The UX isn't there because right now we assume nostr itself is one single community -> you join the centralized relays and only follow the users you care about. But this means you'll share the same streets with people opposed to you. This is not a problem of "diversity in opinions" or "being pro censorship" or however you frame it. I'll talk to anyone willing to engage in conversation, but don't come to me shouting and wishing death upon me. I don't care about the name calling, but you're clearly not in a frame of mind to communicate. Upholding intolerence of intolerence and removing bad faith communication/activity from your community will always be important. The problem is we don't have tools fine grained enough for the users, relay operators or community leaders to cururate a community and isolate from the external environment. When nostr has communities of users conpletely opposed to each other in ideals flourishing and unaware of eachother, thats when we've hit a critical mass. Fragmented and decentralized enough such that it is strengthened and can continue to exist even when its users are the pole's apart in ideals.
Actually noted a similar idea. Specifically want to emphasize social robustness, or how well individuals can share the same space. Considering we're already decently robust to censorship, I don't see as it productive to worry about censorship unless you're specifically mentioning changes to the core of nostr. So I'm pro nostr-fragmentation. From a historical perspective, we've typically never had this frequent contact with more people outside our tribe, and the times we did was less likely to be a positive reason. (probably) nostr:nevent1qqsx5gxqpyl994v9cmduaeklppwewxkltahsg3nd937mdpxchdnjj6gpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsdcnxssmxheed3sv4d7n7azggj3xyq6tr799dukrngfsq6emnhcpsrqsqqqqqpzmsyqk Also thinking about something i'm calling a shield, or "on demand social bubbles". Bottom-up user defined communities. Something as simple as a whitelist of npubs that you see and blackout everyone else, define multiple communties and there might be some interesting interplay between the overlapping npubs between users.