With Alby going paid, nostr:nprofile1qqs04xzt6ldm9qhs0ctw0t58kf4z57umjzmjg6jywu0seadwtqqc75spzpmhxue69uhnzdps9enrw73wd9hszynhwden5te0wp6hyurvv4cxzeewv4eszynhwden5te0wfjkccte9enrw73wd9hsxv8qkt's nutsack will be even more enticing for new Nostriches. However, this doesn't solve all issues. In fact, it may even complicate things more. Users still need to withdrawal their nuts to a Lightning wallet so that they don't get rugged by mints. I still think the no brainer, easy to use, no KYC Lightning wallet eludes a lot of people.


Alby is going paid?


Their free custodial their is being sunset sometime in the near future.


That's dumb, so you have to pay to use it?


no you don't if you manage your own channels. See AlbyHub


No I mean to use Alby account custodially


POV: nostr:npub1l2vyh47mk2p0qlsku7hg0vn29faehy9hy34ygaclpn66ukqp3afqutajft about to release nutsack

https://image.nostr.build/901d0adbffac397c6ce57d6cb42c358af1f43306fe9a43c6bc4e1f63958a104b.gif


oh you thought this was free, nigga?


You and I don't mind doing that but the majority of people won't do this.


Yes Indeedy - lets outline the cases where you start as a lightning n00b and need a nice path to becoming fully self sovereign:
Starting point - Custodial Wallet - once you are ready to wean yourself off of this you can go to step #1 below:

Self Sovereign Step #1  - Wallet in the Cloud - AlbyHub -  it is free. I've been using it for a while in beta. Its not perfectly sovereign but its a good stepping stone to go from custodial to learning channel management to running your own self sovereign node. It is by far the least steep learning hill to transition away from custodial.

Self Sovereign Step #2 - more 3L33T
if you want to run a super light lightning node, set it and forget with some tech skills required -  there is this option here with LNBits + phoenixd but you'll still have to put up your own capital in bitcoin and spend about $5/mo on VPS, you need 24/7 uptime, this isn't gonna work with unstable internet. https://github.com/bitkarrot/lnbits-phoenixd/
Another option is to use Voltage but the price can be a bit steeper for serious usage as it jumps quickly from free to $25/month tier. the plus is you don't have to manage all the upgrades but you still need to have tech knowledge to run it

Self Sovereign Step #3 - Super 3L33T
Run your full self sovereign lightning node, e.g. CLN, LND, Eclair on your own hardware, using your own self sovereign internet satlink or whatever plus your own bitcoin capital and self manage it. This is a tall order for most 99% of plebs unless you're a tech junky, and even as a dev its time consuming and steep hill learn, less so to run after you have learned.  pricing and setup may vary.


Eh. It's not dumb. It's unfortunate. Running a Lightning node costs money. Opening and closing channels isn't free.


nostr:nprofile1qqs04xzt6ldm9qhs0ctw0t58kf4z57umjzmjg6jywu0seadwtqqc75spzpmhxue69uhnzdps9enrw73wd9hszynhwden5te0wp6hyurvv4cxzeewv4eszynhwden5te0wfjkccte9enrw73wd9hsxv8qkt nutsack is a hot topic. 🤣


Imagine if you were to move stacks of nuts when your nutsacks gets too juicy into a fedimint, reducing the ruggability.

Imagine if your wallet did this for you automatically.


its free to use AlbyHub. You just have to manage the channels and its not that hard. you keep your own seed words, they run the cloud stuff for you


Yeah, they seen to just be on a downward trend for a while, I like the Alby team, but this seems like a bad decision for them as a company and Nostr, why not just increase fees on transactions if they aren't making enough.


If this happened automatically I'd hop on a plane and come give you and your nutsack a huge hug.


r U always this sexy?


Alby is at least trying. When I interviewed Kwinten in Fall 2023 and he told me about the AlbyHub plan, I felt it was a great idea, at least one company is not running away or bending the knee to KYC.

No other company is trying something, they're just giving up.

Now That's just defeatist.


It’s a business though right? I mean how else are they going to provide all those channels, unless you get an ad every time you’re zapped…

If it’s done as a reasonable percentage I’m cool with that, if it’s a flat fee that would put me off.

How do they currently pay people?


Users will have 0-110k sats of ecash because that is the minimum channel size for the easiest self custodial lightning channel from Zeus or Mutiny.


That's a lot of nuts.


One can easily set up a decent node under 250 USD. Its not that much.


That is the reality for new npub nocoiners. It seems to be a funny blind spot that isn't broady acknowledged.


It's probably known just not easily solved?


I'm sorry, but that's my opinion. I love the Alby team but this doesn't sound like a smart move.


What exactly won't be free? The Custodial part right? So no free account or LN addresses?


Alby Hub is a post-facto of Lightning.Pub


Something like Mutiny is great, but the first 100k to open a channel puts the breaks on things real quick.


How would you propose they make money? They’ve been burning money providing services for free for us for years.


Oh, I thought that they were just revoking everyone's lightning addresses. My bad.


Couldn't we crowd manage wallets for newbies?

How about small "custodial" solutions, where we host wallets for a few people. Then there is no huge cost on one participant, and anyone who feels can give back as a way of hosting a few wallets.


i don't consider it overly expensive. i don't consider it overly hard. i would never expect anyone in my extended family or anyone i know IRL to ever do this though. we gotta think of the other 99% of the world when it comes to freedom technology. i realize that freedom isn't free or easy, but that doesn't mean that we can't build to target more of the people that need it the most either.


True, but they do make big money from all the fees when you send payments.


It's all post-facto imitation of ShockWallet and Lightning.Pub

No shitcoins required


Still not good for newbies though, most people don't know how to run a node. And most newbies won't want a subscription either.


They don’t add on any extra fees when sending payments afaik


The benefit of this immature bad idea is:

That those people who can manage lightning with capability, time and patience can help lightning adoption on nostr.

So basically if you can "only" manage a lightning node, you can still help nostr to grow.


Right. It's commendable that they're still trying to come up with sustainable solutions.


I think they do, if they didn't I don't know how they would still be running.


Never heard of your project until now. A brief look seems awesome. We need more solutions like yours and Alby so we aren't shoehorned into just one solution. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.


Nope. Just sent a payment from Alby to Blink and there were 0 fees. They have probably been running from money they’ve raised.


This is kind of like Fedi in a way.


I've sent payments and it takes like 100s of sats. I don't think there's any way that those are network fees or that they wouldn't be charging fees, they are to big to have been running for free for that long and so many users even with grants.


Agree. I understand the cost of doing business and cost of working on chain, but noobs do not. It's a tough issue to solve.


Routing fees can definitely be that much. It’s only 0 when they have a direct channel. I checked Blink because I assumed they have a direct channel with Blink. Companies can raise millions of dollars and they don’t have to tell everyone about it.


Alby is going paid?

Annoying.


That's true, just don't see how that would make sense is all, I'd be much happier for them to take a small fee each time I make a payment then have to worry about a subscription.


0-110k sats is custodial if entering ₿ via nostr, is just not as widely accepted as a hard reality/ trade off in the culture

we want self custody, which is great, but new users will appreciate a custodial path if it is a clear stepping stone and function

most of the ecosystem is built around the idea of base layer up rather than from layer 69 down

now, more sophisticated users can certainly run a node, create balanced channels and sweep into their own custody at lower zap counts but that is not ordinary

the reason why I have been a vocal supporter of cashu has been that it really made getting and sending zaps effortless and far more private by comparison to Aby, WoS etc

I purposefully wanted to see if it was possible to earn enough zaps to open a self custodial LN channel and have done so which to me is an insanely powerful usecase for anyone in the world to earn kyc sats on nostr that can eventually work down to the basechain

minibits has absolutely solved this usecase problem and deserves far more attention in the space


We can do it in Riga, don’t worry


According to Crunchbase they raised $2,725,000 in Jan 2024

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/alby-a3a3


Wow, that's a lot.


Oh man. We could have asked for a larger booth donation nostr:nprofile1qqstsw3gkljwt5stm9svt7htvcjlj4ffze4chkcyt4pxxj30xkgeg5qpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtcpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt4w35ku7thv9kxcet59e3k7mgpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfdux3wqdz 🤣🤣🤣


Damn straight.


Well the free tier as it stands now is going away.


Yeah, I see. I'm not down for KYC, and, if they are gonna do that, I start thinking very uncomplimentary things about them.


They spent 1 hour with me on a video call today, so my view of them is elevated at the moment.


Not really. Developers are expensive. Strike’s last funding round was $80 million.


nostr is all about ideaspukes r/now


Lawyer too lol


If they are in the BTC space and they aren't actively fighting against KYC, they deserve very little respect since their complicity with all horrendous and infringing governments is why billions of people are at risk for having their liberty, what little is left, destroyed by the incoming minting of programmable money.

Alby has no excuse. They have to know what they are doing is anathema to the purpose of BTC if that's what they are going to pursue. 😐


I just signed up with them last night to set up a wallet via Alby Hub. All I provided was my e-mail address, and then I linked my Nostr account. There was no other KYC aspects (unless I am ignorant of what the term really means, in which case just let me know). The membership does of course have a monthly fee and I think that's where they are going to be getting their income from. As far as setting up the Lightning node/channel (I'm still learning this part), I had to pay to do that initial setup but it didn't seem excessive to me, and now it's working great and I can send and receive and have a nice interface to manage it all from.

Just wanted to try to give my perspective as someone brand new to Nostr and Lightning. So far Alby's process has made everything the most straightforward for me out of other options I've seen.


That's fine.

But... If it comes down to it, I'm just gonna stop using lighting. I refuse to use services that embrace the nonsense that the state had the right to know everything that you do financially. In still a few steps away from never needing a bank, but... I'm going to get there.
KYC is the death of all freedom. All. ALL.


Rugged by nostr:npub14wxtsrj7g2jugh70pfkzjln43vgn4p7655pgky9j9w9d75u465pqvagcye 😂


It's okay. He bought me a beer and Bar 7. All is forgiven 🤣


did you ever look at our GitHub and the code and the work that is there?


some correction here:
Alby Extension is free and open source and always will be, obviously.
Alby Hub is our upcoming, fully NWC focused, self-sovereign wallet. free and open source as well. You can run it anywhere. (for example work hard to make it even run on  $20 pi zero, which I am super excited about)
As a company we are going to offer lightning and Nostr/NWC cloud services and additional value added services that had been request quite often.
Our cloud service for Alby Hub is probably the fastest and easiest way to get a full lightning node running for you and fully supports the nostr and webln ecosystem.

We hope that people like our plans and value and support the work that we do.


no, but you will upgrade to a self-sovereign option where you have full control.
You can run it for free or use the cloud option which offers a paid service with benefits to make things easy.


Btw. are you already running a Alby Hub? can I give you an intro in the latest version?


If you pay them by credit or debit card, or bank transaction they will KYC you anyway.


No. And I never will. I'm not a coder. I detest github.


I don't expect you to be a coder, but how can you make such comments when you don't even look at what's going on?


KYC is gross. Period. That's it. End of discussion. I don't need to know anything about the code or the work you have done if it's all leading to funneling more people into KYC channels reducing their liberty. Nothing else needs to be known!

Disgusting. 😡


I am not. I will try to find some time soon to tinker with it.


Totally agree, I've been using Alby for year with podcasting 2.0 apps and nostr:npub1xv8mzscll8vvy5rsdw7dcqtd2j268a6yupr6gzqh86f2ulhy9kkqmclk3x  has been helping me get AlbyHub up and running on my own Start9 node so I can use it in the apps.


my point is there is no KYC, there is open source software under an open license that you can use and run and do whatever you want with it.
don't trust; verify. but you don't want to look but rather spread some lies there. or show me what you're talking about.


Are you going to have to KYC people for paid services? Yes. My point still stands.

I don't have time or inclination to GAF past that. Open source doesn't mean squat if you are part of an oppressive system.

So, how am I lying? Is ANYTHING I said untrue? Are you, as a company, going to start having to comply with KYC laws? If the answer is yes, at any point in the future... YOU ARE WRONG. And I won't have anything to do with anything alby ever again.

Besides, I'm literally one idiot on the internet. You really should just be ignoring me, but, I seem to have struck a nerve and here we are. You are arguing with an idiot. That looks great for you, doesn't it? 🙄


yes, you're wrong and you seem to not want to know and understand what we're doing or offering.
but it seems a decent conversation is not possible here. that's fine if you think you know better.


Nope. I don't.
I still don't see how I'm wrong.

It doesn't matter since I'll not be using anything alby related as soon as I can figure out how to delete the account I do have.


we provide and build software for which we provide services.
Our goal is to put the user in control and can run everything. And we charge for value added services. it's simple actually.
If you don't value the work, then don't use it.
But spreading FUD and lies on something that you seem to not know and understand is disappointing here on nostr.


if it means anything, i've seen this guy and he has a lot of followers but not a lot of sense

popularity especially in the context of stupid engagement based trending algorithms like primal uses leads to amplification of teh most outrageous and stupid

so, my advice is, ignore him for now, and maybe later you remove his ignore and he's got bored with fudding your work


Tons of good and sovereign tools with a “pay for more” model for sustainability. I’ll wait to see how it shakes out. Sounds like I’ll be able to self host an Alby Hub someday, and as long as no KYC is required for base usage, I’m good.


Pfft. You must not get around much. There's plenty of BS on nostr, it's just higher level BS than other corners of the internet.

Cool. That's a good goal. I hope you can stick with that in the long run. I hope I'm wrong, but, I'll likely never know.


yeah, i'm down to run one of these things too, not confident about phoenix/acinq, breeze/lsp, or mutiny or... i even forget what is the other thing? zeyus? 🤣 none of them are good enough for me to shift from custodial

i literally don't have the time to waste on beta testing the work of betas, i'm gonna hold until i see more evidence about this alby hub but i like the sound of it already, because it hasn't been hyped and the devs have been slaving away humbly for at least 6 months on this

lightning is still very immature, and i'm a dev on nostr, so i can assure you, that if i don't know the protocol inside out it's still in alpha


you can for example get a <$50 device and put it in your closet it will work perfectly fine.


That’s pretty cool. I keep a few mini pc’s, a couple of raspberry pi’s, and have a couple of dedicated servers with Hetzner, so between it all, I’m going to find a place to try it when y’all say it’s ready.

I’ve been with Alby since joining nostr - so I figure ya’ll have earned a bit of faith.


me also, quality software, quality service, and not making a stupid show


What shitcoins do you have in mind?


Paid will be only our cloud service to running your self-custodial wallet.

You will still be able to use extension and Alby Account with LN address for free, If you run the node yourself or connect any other NWC wallet.

Would you prefer KYC? Or expect services for free?


We are small team of 10 people. We will not lobby US or EU to change the law, you either do KYC or go self-custodial. We chose the second path.

We also do not want to hold anyones funds, regardless of the law.


Dude, there's NO KYC.

You pay with sats, not fiat


meaning without ecash


Neither.

If you have paid customers and are looking to partner with other KYCd companies, you will be compromised or run out of the US if you don't have any balls or principles.

Saying "for free" means that I am the product. I do not wish to be a product. So, again, I'm out.


I... Don't see the point, then.

So, I think I'm just not the right fit for your product/service. 🤷♂


did i miss an announcement? how long do i have? do i need to move sats? pls lmk @alby, you have my email and i aint heard shit about dis..

i duno why tagging alby always fails either 😭


Do you need a lightning node with channels and liquidity to use the Alby Hub? Will it be released for Start9?


I think you misread the message. The new Alby wallet does not require KYC. You can run it for free, it’s 100% open source.


I agree with you. It's a safe assumption that they will not find any method or have the capability to manipulate Bitcoin. Therefore, they can only ever manipulate L2 technologies. This is also why I don't plan on owning any alt coins ever for any serious reason. There's always a human in the loop.

I'm still new to all this and actively learning... but so far Lightning does make sense to me to make transactions faster and more efficient. However, if it becomes compromised to that same level you describe, with the state wanting to know everything you do financially, would there be any reason to keep using it? Does it provide something to Bitcoin that's crucial enough that people wouldn't seek a more secure alternative with more privacy?


Options and futures on Bitcoin will be the manipulation of choice. Just like gold, silver and all other commodities.


It will be released on Start9 and can use either the LND on Start9 if you have one, or an inbuilt lightning node. There’s basic channel management but we’re trying to make it as simple and fun! as possible


So it's king of like a competitor for Voltage basically with the option to run this hub directly on Umbrel or equivalent as well ?


why not WoS?


Well done, great work. Does Alby manage the traffic channels for the lightning nodes?


Announcements coming soon, don’t worry you don’t need to do anything now


Discussions with you are hopeless, you’re just fighting a straw man all the time


Again, I point you to the fact that I'm just an idiot. If I've misunderstood something, no one has bothered to try to disabuse me if whatever notion I've got wrong. Telling me "there's no KYC" and that "it's free, for now" means that while I'm technically wrong now, I won't be in the future if you and your band of merry 10 ever plan to expand, which, I've seen posts showing that you wish to integrate with payment systems that are FULLY KYC compliant, meaning your product will have to comply.

"For now" is not assurance to someone like me who requires "never," or at least being up front and not naively asserting that a group developing a product is too small to challenge the government. Miss me with that weak attitude. 😐


Revisiting this:

As it stands, there is no KYC required to use alby using your free tier or your paid service. Correct?

Please explain how you can stay out of thr crosshairs of big bag brother when you are going to accept payment for services via lightning. I'm assuming that alby is now a corporation of some sort, and thusly required to file tax info. How will you not be forced into complying with KYC requirements if you wish to operate in the US or EU without getting rugged like what has recently happened with Samurai? How do you plan to stay out of prison? How do you plan to handle requests for customer identifying information and transaction histories?


There won't be ever KYC. If you run it on your own, it's free. It's open source. You can fork it. If you want us to host it in a cloud, that's what we charge for in sats. There are topups in app with some soft KYC like Moonpay, you don't need to use them though (and it's Moonpay doing KYC, not us and we do not see or collect anything).

We will not need to have KYC for users because of that, ever. It's self-custodial wallet in the end. What we offer as a service is cloud service, not wallet services so we will not need to do KYC. And never will


Cool. Then I'm wrong and faffing about like a raving lunatic.


And what would be the counter to that manipulation? Just simply opting out of participating?


A minimal version of this feature is actively being worked on in Alby Hub and will be in the next version! In case you’re interested I’d be happy to onboard you to it


whew thank you! 🤙


Damn, definitely! 🫡


Do you have a start9? - there is an early StartOS package: https://github.com/horologger/albyhub-startos
(you can download the .s9pk file from here if you're logged in at github: https://github.com/horologger/albyhub-startos )


This is a nice implementation but the problem is that it only works with LND.


It's modular so an adapter wouldn't be too hard, would accept a PR


You are welcome to demo your project over at the plebnet.dev discord, perhaps someone there might be interested in contributing to your project. Just hop in and ask a mod to create an event.


This feature has been released now! To sign up for an onboarding, see here: https://guides.getalby.com/user-guide/v/alby-account-and-browser-extension/alby-hub/introduction

Our next group onboarding will be on Tuesday


By running Albyhub on my Start9 or on a standalone RPi, will this reveal my IP to Alby and/or liquidity provider, or does it run behind Tor?


When you do requests to services like a liquidity provider or Alby it might see your IP if you don't put it behind a VPN or similar - just like any other resource that you load.
afaik the LSPs do not offer Tor hidden services (at least not all).