Privacy Ranked:

I’m going to rank these least private to most, and explain why on each step.

Discord
Why: Discord is as bad as it gets.  It's not only completely unencrypted, but they maliciously sell your data and have such huge restrictions on VPN IPs and SMS VoIP verification.

SMS
Why: It’s going naked over the phone lines, but isn't heavily sold in such a rotten way as Discord.

VoIP
Why: VoIP is just as horrible as SMS, but separates your real physical location from the cell tower

Telegram
Why: Unlike VoIP, it does have end-to-end encryption, but only on mobile.  And with weak encryption that they made up, that hasn’t been properly reviewed [Source: Madaidans of Whonix]

Signal
Why: Telegram has no metadata protection, while as Signal has sealed sender.  Signal’s encryption is stronger and more thoroughly peer reviewed.  Also Signal has a good legal track record and isn’t strict on crypto VoIP burners like Telegram.   Having phone numbers isn't that big a deal if I paid $1 of crypto for a random VoIP burner in Cambodia without restrictions on Tor.  Btw, my Signal # is Cambodian: +855 68 504 905

Matrix
Why: Tucker Carlson’s Signal was hacked.  Also, academic papers have shown Signal’s sealed sender has flaws.  If you self-host Matrix, that's much more control than trusting Amazon's AWS, which is a CIA contractor.   Many open source projects use Matrix rooms.

Session
Why: Most Matrix users use Matrix.org which is Cloudflare with Gmail verifying the emails.  Setting up a Matrix server is more expensive and complex than just opening Session and hitting "create account".  Session’s onion routing, non-location based DNS, and decentralization is stronger than Matrix's Cloudflare-dominated network.

SimpleX
Why: Session lacks (by default) rotating keys and multiple identities. You can manually rotate keys using your blockchain name, and manually get multiple accounts at once via enabling it on Linux, but most won’t want to do this just to avoid government domain names (which most SimpleX users use).  Session is better for censorship of servers, SimpleX is better for end users being invisible.

Self-hosted Tor XMPP
Why: SimpleX is hiding from servers, but if you control the server, that’s stronger.  Even a self-hosted SimpleX server only picks half the conversation.  Also, XMPP has a longer proven track record, which is more eyes on the code.  Now if you DON'T self-host XMPP, it's way up on the list next to Matrix.

Self-hosted Tor XMPP w/ OTR
Why: OTR nukes the conversation when it’s done. It literally destroys the encryption keys.  Game over bro.

Conclusion:
Anything is better than Discord.  Now, let's play a game, pick a communication method I did not mention, and you tell me where you think it should rank on the list.  Then, we'll discuss.


Matrix is for Pedos


Not going to suggest Discord is any better than you say- but I don't have any issues using it with a VPN.


thank you for this!


Great post 👍

Great post 👍


What do you think about Alan’s pet or theema?


Keet. At least higher than signal? Still waiting for info on your site about it.


Good info. I like Session. Gonna check some other stuff out.


Thoughts on briar?


may go down the xmpp rabbit hole if not to see what all the fuss is about. it's the backend for a number of mainstream apps, no?


as far as I know, 'leaks' IMEI and bluetooth addresses, no ios support, no Post-quantum encryption, no multiple accounts/profiles, no audio/video share(only images), no calls and you can't use it on multiple devices (in addition to mobile device).

I only use briar over bluetooth .

want something else (p2p): TOX or CWTCH


threema:
no multiple accounts/profiles, only client is open-source, no Post-quantum encryption, only f-droid ver. comes without proprietary libraries, centralized, maximum number of participants group chat is 256, not the best at protecting metadata, no screensharing, no self-destructing messages and paid.


> Even a self-hosted SimpleX server only picks half the conversation
what do you mean ?


SimpleX is very nice, but currently lacks rotation and redundancy for the message relays 🙈.


The bluetooth leak is necessary for bluetooth comms, I'm not aware of the IMEI leak but sounds concerning.  Do you have a link?

CWTCH looks good too (no IOS app either but who cares LOL)

Not touching TOX with a 10 foot clown pole.


Carrier pigeon.


Coffee on me ☕

Coffee on me ☕


Corrected version (not rearranged) -

All of these things listed below: software only, not capable of having end to end encryption

Discord: you're pretty much right except it is encrypted "in a way," just not in the way that matters (end to end - not possible in software)

SMS: again you're kinda pretending end-to-end encryption is the only encryption

VoIP: no it doesn't separate you from a cell tower. To separate from cell towers you have to actually separate from them, using VoIP over cell data does nothing. It separates your location from an area code for caller ID maybe

Signal: same as discord, not end to end encrypted (software-only)

Matrix: not end to end encrypted (it's only software, like signal and discord) but with track record for waiting before revealing MITM attacks (unlike signal and discord who have been open about their MITM attacks on users)

Session: no end-to-end encryption (software-based), not sure about track record

SimpleX: no end-to-end encryption (software-based), not sure about track record

Self-hosted Tor XMPP w/ OTR: no end-to-end encryption (no specific hardware mentioned), track record probably better than discord

Conclusion:
Anything is better than Discord.

Additional communication method not in the original:

Encrypted hand-written letters - hardware solution, end-to-end encrypted


What do you mean by software based? How else are you going to do encryption?


You can do end-to-end encryption by hand or with electronics, but it's very hard to run this type of software without electronic hardware. Electronic end-to-end encryption requires implementation at the hardware level, you can't write a piece of software that magically stops anything from running it maliciously or modifying it to run maliciously.


I'm sorry, the "IMEI leak" is not correct
that's what happens when I trust random people online and don't check what they say :/
I will edit my post
I know that the sharing of BT addresses are needed, but briar still shares them with online(over tor) contacs!


Interesting… thank you.


I tested CWTCH 2 months ago, it kinda sucked
The UI was very bad and alot of connection issues.


came to say this


Briar is peer to peer via Tor. This has pros and cons.

Pro:
-Everything stays on your local device
-Uses Tor Onions to avoid government domains
-It can do bluetooth to bluetooth, for like an in-person protest for example

Con:
-UI sucks
-Other person has to be online
-You can use mailbox drops to host a server, but then it’s really just like XMPP over Tor
-Group chat user interface is horrible and confusing


thanks for posting. you thought the UI was too basic or more confusing?


What VPN? They usually ban spammer IPs, which turns into most of them


Why is Matrix any more or less pedos than other networks?


I'm going to write about Keet once they open source.

Keet is peer to peer UDP via holepunching. This has pros and cons.

Pro:
-Faster file transfers and video chat
-Less censored group chats or individual
-One of the few unstoppable group chats that doesn't rely on hiding the server.  There is no server
-Avoid government domains

Con:
-UDP packets won't work over Tor
-Not as easy to hide this networking style from global networking surveillance
-Not yet open source
-Other person has to be online for peer to peer

Comparison with others:
Session group chats are on a regular server, while as Keet is peer to peer, so it's more unstoppable for group chat than the other things on this list.  Keet also has the group video chats in a way that others do not.

But Keet requiring UDP from your home makes it less private than anything you can onion route.  So no Tor even on, or onion routing like Session.


Dunno. They even spammed nostr with CP from their matrix.org rooms


SimpleX conversations break it up into two servers to hide metadata.  There is debate over if this technique is good enough.  Under this system, they pick your send, you pick your receive

As we wrote here:
https://simplifiedprivacy.com/servers/index.html


you're welcome, thanks for tuning in


This was my initial criticism when comparing it to Session yes.  The hiding IPs feature improves this, but ideally fully rotating them would be ideal, I agree.

Btw, keep up your XMR posts =)


There’s a lot to digest in your points.  Let’s start with VoIP since it’s the easiest to explain.

If I have JMP.chat linking an XMPP account to a SMS phone number.  The SMS carrier does not know my physical location where I’m standing if using VPNs/Tors.  We outlined this here:
simplifiedprivacy.com/voip

Are you disputing this?


No, I was disputing what you put in your post after it popped up in a feed on primal or iris. Nothing to do with that webpage


How do you back up the information that Signal was hacked? Tucker said someone saw his messages. I would guess thats some kind of OS tool like Pegasus. Havent seen anything confirming Signal was hacked.


I am saying that the post has the same content as the website:
VoIP lets you do SMS with Tor/VPN, so it COULD separate physical location from the SMS.

Are you disputing this?  Perhaps I should have used the word “could”


Great post 👍

Great post 👍


Using "could" would help, or not saying "your location" - the distinction I'm seeing is important for some people, for example any leet haxxor who thinks their burner phone doesn't know who they are because they use VoIP over WiFi or something (cell phone can still be tracked by cell towers without cell service)


just bad ;)
basic yet too confusing at the same time!


Let's go 🚀

Let's go 🚀


https://www.benzinga.com/news/24/02/37385407/nothing-is-secure-tucker-carlson-accuses-nsa-of-intercepting-and-leaking-encrypted-signal-chats

&

https://www.westernjournal.com/tucker-working-secret-plan-nsa-broke-secure-text-messages/

Where are you getting the "someone saw his messages"?


This shows that Signal is a honeypot designed to be backdoored by the NSA. Simple as that.


XMR posts 🤔, good reminder! When do the main Nostr apps switch from lightning to XMR? Then we could have some proper XMR posts 🤓


OTR is no longer recommended in the XMPP network as it has widely been replaced by OMEMO


Privacy Ranked:

I’m going to rank these least private to most, and explain why on each step.

Discord
Why: Discord is as bad as it gets.  It's not only completely unencrypted, but they maliciously sell your data and have such huge restrictions on VPN IPs and SMS VoIP verification.

SMS
Why: It’s going naked over the phone lines, but isn't heavily sold in such a rotten way as Discord.

VoIP
Why: VoIP is just as horrible as SMS, but separates your real physical location from the cell tower

Telegram
Why: Unlike VoIP, it does have end-to-end encryption, but only on mobile.  And with weak encryption that they made up, that hasn’t been properly reviewed [Source: Madaidans of Whonix]

Signal
Why: Telegram has no metadata protection, while as Signal has sealed sender.  Signal’s encryption is stronger and more thoroughly peer reviewed.  Also Signal has a good legal track record and isn’t strict on crypto VoIP burners like Telegram.   Having phone numbers isn't that big a deal if I paid $1 of crypto for a random VoIP burner in Cambodia without restrictions on Tor.  Btw, my Signal # is Cambodian: +855 68 504 905

Matrix
Why: Tucker Carlson’s Signal was hacked.  Also, academic papers have shown Signal’s sealed sender has flaws.  If you self-host Matrix, that's much more control than trusting Amazon's AWS, which is a CIA contractor.   Many open source projects use Matrix rooms.

Session
Why: Most Matrix users use Matrix.org which is Cloudflare with Gmail verifying the emails.  Setting up a Matrix server is more expensive and complex than just opening Session and hitting "create account".  Session’s onion routing, non-location based DNS, and decentralization is stronger than Matrix's Cloudflare-dominated network.

SimpleX
Why: Session lacks (by default) rotating keys and multiple identities. You can manually rotate keys using your blockchain name, and manually get multiple accounts at once via enabling it on Linux, but most won’t want to do this just to avoid government domain names (which most SimpleX users use).  Session is better for censorship of servers, SimpleX is better for end users being invisible.

Self-hosted Tor XMPP
Why: SimpleX is hiding from servers, but if you control the server, that’s stronger.  Even a self-hosted SimpleX server only picks half the conversation.  Also, XMPP has a longer proven track record, which is more eyes on the code.  Now if you DON'T self-host XMPP, it's way up on the list next to Matrix.

Self-hosted Tor XMPP w/ OTR
Why: OTR nukes the conversation when it’s done. It literally destroys the encryption keys.  Game over bro.

Conclusion:
Anything is better than Discord.  Now, let's play a game, pick a communication method I did not mention, and you tell me where you think it should rank on the list.  Then, we'll discuss.


Onward 🫡

Onward 🫡


OTR requires the other person to be online, so that's a deal killer for most people.
OMEMO has async time and does images.  But when we say "no longer recommended", by who? there is no authority.

The individual end clients don't like it.  And therefore the XMPP foundation doesn't like it.
But unless you can link me to evidence that it's encryption can be broken.


RebelNet.me


It's possible, I can't say for sure it's not.
But for a lot of low technical skill users, it is a decent first step. And good for non-controversial stuff.

We can agree it's better than SMS? Well the kind of people who are using SMS, aren't gonna switch to simplex or session. So this is how you get em


I think Signal is better than Protonmail. Signal is code on your device, while w/ proton you trust their web app in a browser. It could be switched up on you to get the password in a second.


Yea, consider this short animated video on XMPP from our team:

https://video.simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp/


hell ya. nice little explainer. the guys voice reminded me of teenage mutant ninja turtles. cowabunga!


How would you rank nostr + pgp?


Nostr DM's?


Make sure to use a XMPP client that supports OMEMO* = double ratchet encryption

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMEMO


Best wishes


how about 0xChat nostr app? id guess below signal above voip.


Tor + private nostr relay + pgp?


You definitiv need go deeper with your researches....

Telegram
= NO privacy & NO Dataprotection at all= it´s #Putins Messenger to destroy democratic states.
Everythins is stored in some russian cloud.
And everyone can hack into any Telegram account with Websites like TGTracker!!!

Signal

All traffic of the SignalApp goes over the Clouds of Amazon, Google, Microsoft & Cloudflare - they only talk about "third partys"!

Do you think thats secure?

Especially in combination with US (Spy) Cloud-Act

"The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act

Everybody can verify this. These subdomains, are used by signal

Amazon:
textsecure-service.whispersystems.org, cdn.signal.org, sfu.voip.signal.org
Google:
storage.signal.org, contentproxy.signal.org
Microsoft:
api.directory.signal.org, api.backup.signal.org
Cloudflare:
cdn2.signal.org

Make a "tracert" in your Windows-Console and you will see that the last contact is always the IT-Gigant above.

Its even more worse:
These 4 big IT-Gigants can see and store the IP Adresses from the sender and receiver. So they can collect all the metadata around your person.

MetaData is, what it is all about!!!

"Metadata absolutely tells you everything about somebody´s life. If you have enough metadata, you don´t really need content."

SA General Counsel
Stewart Baker

Read:
"We kill people based on metadata"
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/05/10/we-kill-people-based-metadata/

Also Signal:
"we showed that the multi-device support of the #Signal messenger can be abused to eavesdrop on all communication after a one-time credential breach.
Thus, currently, the Signal messenger does not provide message privacy in the post-compromise security scenario."
https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/626.pdf

It´s NOT possible to use the Signalapp anonymous, as you need to give out your mobilenumber. So you can be tracked with "silent SMS".

Matrix / Element
Matrix is a (h)spawn of the American Amdocs Group!

"The initial project was created inside Amdocs..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)

You should take a closer look at what they do:

In more than 90 countries with over 26,000 employees, they generate mobile phone bills for more than half of the world's population and provide services for the mobile phone industry!

Mobile phone companies send them the connection data and Amdocs apparently only creates the bill.

This means that since the 1980s they have known who has been in contact with whom, how often, for how long and at what time!

So you can easily say that Amdocs is the world's first big metadata company. Even the USA went too far and in 1999 they tried to investigate the company and shut it down!

Amdocs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdocs

So we shouldn't be surprised if they now want to continue this metadata collection "passion" with messengers too.

The Matrix protocol is intentionally designed to reveal metadata!

The Matrix Client Element even openly admits that they use metadata to profile users!

This is stated in their privacy declaration (under 2.2):

"... but we might profile metadata ..."
https://element.io/privacy

The Matrix Client Element even openly admits that they use metadata to profile users!

The Israeli Morris Kahn doesn't just invest 20 - 30 million in Matrix & Element, he always wants something in return = MetaData.

Session
Session comes from the creators of the most unsuccessful cryptocurrency Loki!

I think the only purpose of this messenger is to fill their dead blockchain with life

There are also dubious backers from China behind it - see: https://loki.network/team/

SimpleX Chat

everything is alread said here:
https://primal.net/e/note1g0vd77lghpsukc47dqmzqfk3w820heh8ej2q3vndvsnr5vhwpjcs9ff37q

or note:
note1g0vd77lghpsukc47dqmzqfk3w820heh8ej2q3vndvsnr5vhwpjcs9ff37q

###############

When you gonna learn:

There is no such thing as a "free messenger" - there are always a data collectors behind it!

Look where the money comes from = Look who´s behind !!!

###################

There is only one messenger, for which the user pays a one-off fee and which does not collect any data in return.

Threema only stores messages until they have been delivered to the recipient.

And most importantly: Threema is the only messenger that does not store any metadata or IP addresses.

If you communicate digitally - and we all do that today - and don't want to leave any traces behind, there's no way around the Threema app.

Check it for yourself:

Visit

https://www.securemessagingapps.com

Rate:
🟩=3 🟨=1 🟥=0

Results (and where the money comes from)

1. Threema = 86 = most secure Messenger (User pays one-time)

2. Signal (OTF / Brian Acton / Ex-WhatsApp) = 80
3. Session (Loki Coin & suspicious Chinese) = 77
4. Wire (Janus Fries / Ex-Skype) = 68
5. SimpleX Chat *= 67
6. Wickr (Amazon) = 61
7. Element / Matrix (Amdocs / Morris Kahn) = 56
8. Apple iMessage (Hardware sales) = 37
9. WhatsApp (Meta) = 32
10. Google Messages (Ads) = 28
11. Telegram (Putin) = 27
12. Facebook Messenger (Meta) = 26
13. Microsoft Skype =10

* SimpleX Chat got 380.000 $ from VillageGlobal.vc = Jez Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, ect.

OFT = OpenTechnologyFund = US-Goverment

If you want to buy Threema you can do it from me:
https://primal.net/e/note14r3uwldurcseuuu9wzntgjsacag3wh3yesrezs5y3ukde6zgmk2sw5708f

or note:
note14r3uwldurcseuuu9wzntgjsacag3wh3yesrezs5y3ukde6zgmk2sw5708f


You urgently need to update your prejudices, then you will spread less misinformation.

But when someone is already called "epicshitposter", you can't expect much competence.

"no multiple accounts/profiles"
That's wrong. Anyone can install 2 versions from the Appstore Threema and Threema Work. And then have 2 Threema IDs. For example, to separate private and business communication.
Android User can even install ThreemaLibre for a third ID!

"only client is open-source"
That is correct. But the source code for the server is of no use to anyone, because no one can verify whether it's actually running on their production servers. The same applies to other messengers, such as Signal!

"no post-quantum encryption"
It doesn't even exist! Anything that can be encrypted can also be decrypted again. This has less to do with the messenger than with quantum technology.

By the way:

"Researchers use a Commodore C64 to calculate a quantum computer - and annoy IBM with it

Researchers have beaten a quantum computer with an old Commodore 64. The experiment is a friendly dig at IBM, which has claimed that only quantum computers are capable of performing such calculations."

See (unfortunately only in German = please translate for yourself):
https://t3n.de/news/forscher-c64-berechnung-quantencomputer-ibm-1619710/

"only f-droid ver. comes without proprietary libraries"
This is also outdated. The version from the Google Playstore can also be configured to work without Google.

"centralized"
Right, because with Threema this is a security feature. It always depends on how an operator handles it!

There may be spy servers in federated systems that collect your data, see Signal or Matrix. I wrote more about this above.

You can also host Threema on your own server:
https://threema.ch/en/onprem

"maximum number of participants group chat is 256"
That is correct. More users makes no sense. If everyone writes something, no one can keep up anyway!

"not the best at protecting metadata"
What makes you think that? Threema is the only messenger that doesn't store any metadata.

Threema only stores messages until they have been delivered to the recipient.

And most importantly: Threema is the only messenger that does not store any metadata or IP addresses.

If you communicate digitally - and we all do that today - and don't want to leave any traces behind, there's no way around the Threema app.

"no screensharing"
Threema is programmed for the greatest possible data protection, which of course also means that no one can read your screen (except you). Android users can also activate the screenshot lock.

"destructing messages"
So far, there is no implementation of self-destructing messages that offers real, reliable security and goes beyond gimmickry.

Even if a message has disappeared from the chat, it remains in the notification log of the cell phone operating system, for example, and can be read by third parties using simple means.

This lulls you into a false sense of security. As I said, false security is not our thing.

"paid"

There is no such thing as a "free messenger" - there are always some data collectors behind it!

Look where the money comes from = Look who´s behind !!!

Threema has no dubious financier in the background and is therefore completely independent.

Private users pay a one-time fee to ensure that they are not spied on.

What are the few dollars for Threema compared to being permanently spied on by all the other messengers?

If you want to buy Threema with sats, you can do it from me:
https://primal.net/e/note14r3uwldurcseuuu9wzntgjsacag3wh3yesrezs5y3ukde6zgmk2sw5708f

or note:
note14r3uwldurcseuuu9wzntgjsacag3wh3yesrezs5y3ukde6zgmk2sw5708f


all I listed was as far as I knew, and we learn by sharing and talking.
1-
Do you really call this mutliple account support ?
see how amethyst/simplexchat does mutiple account support.
2-
as far as I know, yes no one can be 100% sure what is running on the servers, but how is there no use for the source code of the server? seems dumb tbh.
3-
I'm no expert, I really don't know, will try to read what you listed.
4-
How is it outdated, you said that the GP ver. can be 'configured' to work without google, this confirms that the libraries are still shipped with that ver.!
5-
I'm not saying that is always bad, I was just listing things that people may not like about threema. being centralized makes it easly blocked by governments, right?
6-
you(or threema) are not the one to determine what is the best user limit of a group! this is just dumb
it's like how 'discord femboys' argued that the 8mb file limit is great beacuse it makes memes pixelated and that's funnier!
7- https://www.messenger-matrix.de/messenger-matrix-en.html
says that threema partially Avoids / Protects metadata during use, unlike simplexchat or session.
8-
"Threema only stores messages until they have been delivered to the recipient."
what is new here ??
same as what'sapp/simplexchat.
9-
"If you communicate digitally - and we all do that today - and don't want to leave any traces behind, there's no way around the Threema app."
buying the app is a trace!
10-
screensharing is a feature
people might need it,so I listed it,simple.
11-
as for destructing messages,
I asked the simplexchat devs if it provides anything over deleting by hand, still a feature.
12-
"Even if a message has disappeared from the chat, it remains in the notification log of the cell phone operating system, for example, and can be read by third parties using simple means. "
good point, that obv applies for all apps.
13-
as for being paid, I get that you feel i just listed everything 'bad' with threema, but still, being paid is a 'big wall' to get over when trying to get people to switch,"why should I buy threema when what'sapp is free"
14-
"What are the few dollars for Threema compared to being permanently spied on by all the other messengers?"
really? all? you threemaer


Radical bro. Let's get pizza


So PGP PLUS Nostr? That'd be unstoppable breaking encryption wise, but Metadata issues remain


0xchat uses a similar system to Signal's sealed sender for the encryption, but this is changing. Last I heard all of the Nostr client devs were trying to upgrade to a v3 once it passes an audit.  Once they do so, there will be a big question of which relays will support this, which has metadata questions.

So we have to see on these changes


So using tor would help in fixing that as well?


1 = yes
And its real dataprotection, because if you have multiple accounts in one App, this App knows all your Identitys.

2.
You can´t verify. Signal presents its user a "clean" servercode - and what Google, Amazon, Microsoft & Cloudflare are doing is invisible!
That a "Bullshit"-Code to gag on their user.... = useless !

4.
No its not! Like any other thing in this world: If it switched off there is no more connection.

5.
Switzerland will never block Threema, because they use it widely in the swiss administration and the swiss army. They don´t shoot themself in the knee! Threema has never been blocked, will never and is permanent online for 11 1/2 years now.
You can dream something else now.

6.
A messenger must be useable. If you have a group with 200.000 Users (like in Telegram possible) and everybody write something every minute, you battery will go from 100% ----> 0% within 3 hours!
Large Groups are bullshit!

7.
Then ask Mike Kuketz, what he means.... when I ask him, he never answered.
WhatsApp stores all your messages permanently, decrypts it and profiles you psychologically for meta and for advertisers.
SimpleX runs accross relays and not every relay runs the original servercode. The same issue as above....

9.
You can buy Threema without any trace.
No Email needed. You can pay anonymous with Appstore Vouchers, Cash Money or with Bitcoin. And from me with Bitcoin Lightning, without any Data from you, going to Threema - guaranteed!

10.
Its safe to make your own Screenshot and then send it with Threema as pictures. Its safer then including a Screeshot-Routine within the App.

11. +12.
Its all stored in the notification-log. And you never know how the smartphone of the receipent is configured. There is no use for chat that is deleted in the messenger, if its stil available in log-textfile!

13. + 14.
Threem stores nothing.

WhatsApp stores ALL you intimates chats, pictures & videos. If they get into the wrong hands, it will turn out very bad for you.

Learn to think twice, my friend! Here are the right informations for you:

Why Threema Instead of WhatsApp?
https://threema.ch/en/why-threema

Messenger Comparison
https://threema.ch/en/messenger-comparison


1-
No, that's not proper support but good point
you can always use another profile\workprofile.
2-
true, but is it 100% useless? I don't think so. maybe.
4-
still my point is true, the app is shipped with proprietary libraries, you seem to just be mad.
"Like any other thing in this world: If it switched off there is no more connection."
iPhones disagree :)
5-
I said "governments", meaning any of them could easily block access to threema.
I remember UAE banning what'sapp calls becuase security reasons! this is just an example. look at iran and china for more!!
6-
just no, a hard limit to all users is just dumb.
it is on you if you join huge groups.
7-
will try ask him :)
edited the original post a bit.
fuck meta anyway!
9-
still not as easy to access as free of charge apps.
appstores need accounts!
10-
have you ever used screen sharing before ?
11+12-
true
13+14-
you didn't reply :|
I'm not against the app being paid, It is a tool that will be harder to convince people to use.
"threem stores nothing."
doesn't mean "all" other messangers do!
I'm not saying what'sapp is better
I was just saying what a layman may say, that's why I used the "
I'm trying to think twice. thanks, but I'm not your friend!


"Free Messenger" spy on Users

Threema does not!

Very simple!


Φ Phi Daisy 🌼

Φ Phi Daisy 🌼


> it´s #Putins Messenger to destroy democratic states.
Everythins is stored in some russian cloud.

I would not recommend telegram to anyone but this is typical partisan political hack coal.  You can look up telegrams data centres online and none are in Russia.  The company and its main dev team are based in the UAE (itself a problem) and legally in British virgin islands (tax shelter) the company left Russia and the Durovs were forced to offload VK (where they actually made their fortunes) by the Russian govt.

This is all easily verifiable online and you make me distrust everything else you say when you post this garbage.


If the sender is wrapped in encryption, then it's protected.  And yeah Tor would help.
If it's a Tor Onion relay, even better.  Not sure if 0xchat supports that.
What you're describing with Tor + Nostr + sealed sender is basically how Session works


Would it be better to use i2p instead of tor?


Best solution is if the relay is on the network too, be that onion services or i2p.
I know there are a few Onion nostr relays, not sure on i2p. If you find i2p ones, let me know


Ok ok ok, if I find one I’ll make sure to inform ya.
Also do you know of of how to…
nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpvfnhlzhhmtpcwgaf68e2wusd3l3wzwy8rv3ca0mdkhhj3ya27yaqyd8wumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnndp5hgen0wf3k2tn0dejj7qgmwaehxw309a6xsetxdaex2um59ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hsqg9nkegang7w0nn02vfn9wu0qvn5gf222se85nqmz45ss4656y58jc4yvq5z


Privacy Ranked:

I’m going to rank these least private to most, and explain why on each step.

Discord
Why: Discord is as bad as it gets.  It's not only completely unencrypted, but they maliciously sell your data and have such huge restrictions on VPN IPs and SMS VoIP verification.

SMS
Why: It’s going naked over the phone lines, but isn't heavily sold in such a rotten way as Discord.

VoIP
Why: VoIP is just as horrible as SMS, but separates your real physical location from the cell tower

Telegram
Why: Unlike VoIP, it does have end-to-end encryption, but only on mobile.  And with weak encryption that they made up, that hasn’t been properly reviewed [Source: Madaidans of Whonix]

Signal
Why: Telegram has no metadata protection, while as Signal has sealed sender.  Signal’s encryption is stronger and more thoroughly peer reviewed.  Also Signal has a good legal track record and isn’t strict on crypto VoIP burners like Telegram.   Having phone numbers isn't that big a deal if I paid $1 of crypto for a random VoIP burner in Cambodia without restrictions on Tor.  Btw, my Signal # is Cambodian: +855 68 504 905

Matrix
Why: Tucker Carlson’s Signal was hacked.  Also, academic papers have shown Signal’s sealed sender has flaws.  If you self-host Matrix, that's much more control than trusting Amazon's AWS, which is a CIA contractor.   Many open source projects use Matrix rooms.

Session
Why: Most Matrix users use Matrix.org which is Cloudflare with Gmail verifying the emails.  Setting up a Matrix server is more expensive and complex than just opening Session and hitting "create account".  Session’s onion routing, non-location based DNS, and decentralization is stronger than Matrix's Cloudflare-dominated network.

SimpleX
Why: Session lacks (by default) rotating keys and multiple identities. You can manually rotate keys using your blockchain name, and manually get multiple accounts at once via enabling it on Linux, but most won’t want to do this just to avoid government domain names (which most SimpleX users use).  Session is better for censorship of servers, SimpleX is better for end users being invisible.

Self-hosted Tor XMPP
Why: SimpleX is hiding from servers, but if you control the server, that’s stronger.  Even a self-hosted SimpleX server only picks half the conversation.  Also, XMPP has a longer proven track record, which is more eyes on the code.  Now if you DON'T self-host XMPP, it's way up on the list next to Matrix.

Self-hosted Tor XMPP w/ OTR
Why: OTR nukes the conversation when it’s done. It literally destroys the encryption keys.  Game over bro.

Conclusion:
Anything is better than Discord.  Now, let's play a game, pick a communication method I did not mention, and you tell me where you think it should rank on the list.  Then, we'll discuss.


Afaik Telegram only has e2ee when you use the Secret Chat option https://i.nostr.build/HLRDudiFIESSp5dv.jpg


I was expecting to see nostr:nprofile1qqsgtjkgzxgn98tdp48e6zng79ychcr84rh2jppdy9acmfk9hr7m8cqprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0d4hhxarj9ecxjmntkyxf77 around the bottom of the list...

#briar


The best way is to exchange the PGP public keys and from now on you can use any communication channel you like. All the channel's provider will see is BJHGUGHKJHYRYTFVJ...


I like Briar in concept yes. But it's peer to peer, so the other person has to be online.
This has the potential to defeat the purpose or leak metadata if you reach out via a different channel


yes correct, but its only on mobile


As far as I know PGP to relay would have to be custom coded.  In my subjective opinion, you're better off whitelisting by nostr public key, since the metadata is on the relay anyway.


True


Thank you very much


According to their site, that issue can be solve with the Briar Malilbox app.

 Definitely easier than self hosting any of the other apps/services.


Yeah I've seen that, but you gonna store it on a VPS or your home? If it's a VPS, then it's basically XMPP w Tor Onions


np bro


How would #Jami and #DeltaChat rank?


see:
https://www.messenger-matrix.de/messenger-matrix-en.html


Hopefully you know that Russian propaganda is all FAKE !

The Programmers are sitting in St. Peterburg:

https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-saying-about-its-connections-to-the-kremlin

All their adresses around the world are empty Fake-Offices
https://youtu.be/oQHZsqQrfAE

Who is talking shit?


All propaganda is fake

Took you two weeks to deliver a 7 year old article with accusations stemming from a love triangle gone bad and a video showing the German govt being unable to censor speech (good).

Russia attempted to block telegram for 2 years failing miserably embarrassing themselves, was this a ruse?

Once again telegram isn't a good choice for secure comms but calm down with muh russiagate.


1.
I am not here every day...

2.
Your are an russian fake spreading bastard

3.
Spain blocked Telegram - so its not unblockable!

Will block YOU now!