Oddbean new post about login | logout This is the second most elitist thing I have seen someone say about high fees today.
Why is this elitist? Why do you think bitcoin Onchain transactions should be cheap? Onchain deliberately has very limited trans per sec.
I don't see the logic of me rejoicing high fees so people work on scaling being elitist 🤷🏼 You want a bitcoin the whole world can access, but you don't want high onchain fees?
High onchain fees is exactly what makes it inaccessable for most.
but it was clear from the beginning that fees must rise to sustain the network on the long run.
Rising is one thing, but when fees take 40% plus of a typical tx us poors can afford, its utterly devaststing.
Bullshit attack from a weak and dying animal. BTC is reacting exactly as designed. Making it expensive to keep doing it while making miners lots of sound money. This is significant. In the future, this is eliminated on a BTC standard. Can't afford it at all.
Oh yay miners are getting rich while us poors get fucked in the ass again. Congrats, third most elitist thing I have seen today. Sounding a lot like those who say CPI increases and inflation are good things too.
Can you explain your logic behind how high fees make Bitcoin accessible to the majority, especially in low-income countries? I do not believe lightning is a solution for those people, and high fees make it difficult for on-boarding and use for the very people it should be accessible to.
Because some of us cant afford to move anything anywhere, nor afford a lightning channel after one was forced closed recently. And tx fees were very affordable til recently so yes thats a good thing. Not all of us can afford this rich mans game bs
I'm not saying it's a rich man's game.
Well, when we are in the 300 to 500 range for fees, thats exactly a rich mans game
Expect $10000s. Bitcoin can and will be accessed by the world and trans per sec are low Onchain. I look forward to my grandchildren thinking it amazing I once did an onchain transaction.
And you wonder why I think you are coming off as elitist? Yea to hell with us low income people right now. Jesus fucking christ
I think there has been a misunderstanding. I'm saying when bitcoin is working properly, it will be very rare any 1 human makes an onchain transaction for just sending value.
Yea I dont know what this means at all. Onchain tx fees where they are now is the exact problem that you seem to be saying is a good thing. And they are not. I tried to jump in a 100k sat whirlpool recently. Fees were OVER 100%. And that was with tx fees in the 200 range. And fees are twice that now. I really fail to see how any of this is a good thing.
Maybe stop blaming Christ, BTC, the world. Pick yourself up and make yourself useful in some way. Might fill up the cavity left by the soul that obviously tapped out on you. Your profile says you identify as a threat, good. You still have some judgment at least. . . But i wonder if it is sound enough to realize you're a threat only to yourself from what I can gather in this limited discourse.
Why not use Lightning?
It costs onchain fees to open and I just had a poorly timed force close.
It's the wild west. Stop whining. Take some respect for yourself in sovereignship back and deal with the fact that we are at war. Your BTC is your ammo and you shouldn't be moving it around left and right anyhow. You Hold the damn thing. If you can't, and you start blaming BTC for doing exactly what BTC is supposed to do given the criteria - how the hell can anyone respect you?
Wow, you are telling someone who lost literally everything in the past couple years and has a negative net worth for refusing an employer injction mandae to stop whining about not being able to afford miner fees. Must be nice not know struggle. Go. Fuck. Yourself.
I crawled through whatever the fuck you did. I didn't get injected. I've had 3 jobs since leaving my career. Don't talk to me about sob stories. I live it every day. Then come on here and get pissed at BTC for protecting itself AND us as designed against these type of attacks. Then get called on it, then trying to weasel your way out like a dependent whose capitulating and saying i should feel sorry for you. Grow a pair. This fight isn't for everyone.
I was having a conversation. You came in and start talking shit like you fucking know me. If you knew struggle you wouldnt be acting like a fucking elitist cunt right now.
Everyone is an elitist cunt, right? Anyone who has no issue with whatever you have an issue with is an elitist cunt, right? Whatever dude. No cope. Learn to swim
You acting like one.
I woud love nothing more to be having this convo with you irl. Fucking shit talking coward
It sounds like the problem is in you. Don't project that onto BTC for doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing given the circumstances.
I was having a fucking conversation. Nobody blaming anything. Heaven fucking forbid I have an option you dont like.
When was the last time you spoke this bold to a stranger in person? My guess is exactly never fucking coward.
I'm saying we need to scale so more people can access, and that doesn't happen in low fee enviroment.
And who is going to decide to jump aboard with fees like this? Not low income people. Like I said, it is right now a rich mans game and if you cant see that, then you are a rich man which is fine. But dont act like these fees arent a barrier for us poor folk. I am a poor folk and I am telling you this fee bs has rendered btc 100% useless for me. Cant move shit anywhere. Cant afford to open a lightning channel. So how exacty is this a good environment for us poors?
We are at war. You're looking at it all wrong. This is all impossible on a Bitcoin standard. Right you shouldnt really be spending or moving anything. And most exchanges already work the fee into their exchange rate price conversion. And if you waned to buy things, unsure why you'd use BTC - but Lightning Is a really good payments layer. It's not a rich man's game, it's an involved man's game. If it's too much for you, perhaps that is simply Natural Selection.
I already said multiple times that I recently had a force channel close and because of current fees, opening another is not an option. And a bitcoin standard is not the current reality and is such a utopian pipe dream I cant believe intelligent people think that will ever happen without a ton of bloodshed, so that makes exactly zero difference nor does it change a thing that I have said.
What was the first?
Similar conversation but this other person told me it was a 'convenient excuse' that I only had one lightning channel (that was force closed) and cant afford to open another right now.
That's hurtful, I agree. Sorry for your loss, force closes now are pretty scary 😔.
It wasnt a big loss, just very very inconvient timing
We're gonna split in classes, "I can't afford to pay the fee" class being the biggest one 🫠 nostr:nevent1qqsyg2gfnmhtxrkg8xnztkded5f283vr98tm3c8u880zjguz3mq2xvcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzvupzpku09ywul9ynw06jysrse0h5l2uqhx5dxs6zg6k2rl35z9xv28wsqvzqqqqqqyu2vm26
GET OFF THE CHAIN, POOR
It's true
Oh yea, not being able to afford tx fees is fucking wonderful. Im so excited to be able to spend so much money to move my money and be left with a small fraction of what I started with. I've been waiting for this moment my entire life.
Have you heard of lightning or liquid? Now's a good time to learn. Next time you'll be prepared
I just had a force close of a lightning channel in the midst of all this for who knows what damn reason. And not willing to eat the cost for another with current fees. Also, neither that nor liquid will resolve my current desire to whirlpool some btc before moving to cold storage.
Don't use whirlpool in a high fee environment LN is private enough
Look, I am truly happy for you and everyone else who can weather this current evironment. But some people are not in a good place finacially, and some of us are in that position through no fault of our own. Try losing a very good career over a injection mandate and not being able to do what you have done for two decades because the entire semiconductor industry is jab happy and having to resort to a fucking part time dishwasher job to barely pay the bills. So next time you want to talk down to someone, maybe take a step back and know the whole story.
When putting onchain UTXO's into cold storage you need to lower your time preferance. Why are they going into cold storage? Because they won't be spent for a long time. So give it some time. Now you know that you need larger UTXO's after your force close, wait till you get fees that you think are reasonable to send into whirlpool. With a bit of wizardry in LN and you don't really need to coinjoin. But now might not be the best time to be opening channels. BTW I worked as a dishwasher for years. Put on bitcoin podcasts or audiobooks so you can learn at the same time (which offsets the low pay).
Do you really think I dont know all this? Im annoyed with fees, not lacking knowledge.
And please dont assume shit about what I know or if I was or wasnt prepared. Its called I am fucking in financial ruin after being put in a very fucked up situation that lead to me having to live off everything I had saved and seeling off every asset I had at a LOSS to keep food on the table and the lights on and now am barely getting by. Ya'll fuckers just love to sit in judgement and make assumptions about people who are in fucked up situations. This is why I cant fuck 99% of bitcoin people. Bunch of fucking snobs
You weren't prepared I'm not assuming anything Let me remind you gently. On chain is for long term savings in larger denominations. LN is for everyday spending. Don't know who you're trying to fuck... There are no women in bitcoin
What part of wanting to move to cold storage do you not fucking understand? I dont really give a fuck about lightning right now. I need to mix and send to hardware. Which I just fucking said. So save your fucking lectures.
