The Nostr trending algo works backward to Twitter.

It nudges you to talk only about Nostr and Bitcoin, or to post platitudes, famous quotes, sexy pics, and heart-warming pictures of nature and food.

It's an anti-intellectual algo.
An anti-literary algo.
An anti-contemplation algo.
Any original, complex, or unsettling thought gets buried 6 feet down and a pile of GMs gets poured on top, to seal it in.


Reminds me of the way twitter and facebook used to work


I agree with this... for now. But I suspect this will gradually change over time as people use nostr in new ways, and people apply their own signal/noise algos


I suspect some of it is down to being a reaction against the accusations against nostr. So client like in primal's sidebar, or their recommendations, or big accounts promoting want to counter with twee posts, nothing posts about nostr, and nothing bitcointwitter in jokes and slogans.


Which client?


I aways see your notes, when I open the app. In Damus you are not burried by GMs


This will change. Still the vibe is better and tons of useful content and connections. Trending is trending..always.


The Prim Reaper strikes againWa

Not wrong tho


Hmm.  Interesting!

Also, goodmorning! 🔔🔔🔔🔔🔔


You have to remember that most users don't follow that many npubs, so their feed is mostly just a top-ten list and they scroll through the trending lists.


Any client with a trending list, but mostly Primal.


Nostr:
Where we never say anything interesting, so that people like us.


Twitter trends at least change topic. 😂


would a reddit like algorithm beneficial for Nostr?


your concerns always show up in trends for me, so the algo works


Not really. The trending list is also based upon human recommendations.

This will always face the problem that humans will shy away from reposting or recommending anything too edgy, deep, or controversial, even if that's what they prefer to read themselves.


I followed 1k+ and I didn’t see shit. I mostly use Damus so no fancy algos. I unfollowed all and followed just few people and my experience is 1000x better. My algo is me clicking on new notes or reply to notes and using advance thumb scrolling algo from there. Underrated tech 👍🏻

Till there is algo I can design with 4 clicks Im sticking to this on the go (phone). On laptop I can browse whats trending but unless Im at work, I dont care that much for hot news.


I'm not complaining I can't trend. I trend regularly. Here's the fastest way for me to trend:

Post a pretty picture of food.
Post a pretty nature picture.
Remind people to stack sats.
Post a selfie of my face, preferably without makeup or filters and facing the light.


Good point lol


but upvote is not always like. upvote to me is 'something that others should see'. so it should be immune to seeking mainstream popularity


Upvotes don't really count toward trending. Just replies and reposts. Maybe zaps.

And only replies in the first level, which is why bland things trend: they have lots of replies and the replies aren't nested because there is no interaction between the repliers.


Theres 10k of us here we have nostr, bitcoin, and maybe 2 other interests right now. What else would the topic be?

Besides this is a public square where tomatoes are tossed. not a  Paris salon or nor Plato’s republic


🤔 so deeper conversations could be counted as having more value. noice.


You just told me how limited your own feed is. 🤷♀


If only he knew had bad things really are lol
 https://image.nostr.build/c591b465fdc42333eadf3ac2e24c3af281a01e5c1901a8942ad51aedcff7948f.jpg

Bitcoin slogan, bitcoin meme, fuck the fed, bitcoin changed price, bitcoin slogan, nostr thing, bitcoin, a flower, bitcoin fucks the fed


The algos specifically exclude deeper conversations.


what would be interesting to watch as a debate on nostr?

(disclaimer: i started doing bot debates)


Whatever. It's more about watching interesting people chat, than specifically about a topic.


Forgot the obligatory 'freedom tech'

May as well mute that tbh.

Zaps are arguably a nudge unit rewarding a forced 'positivity'


makes sense! people could join at some point. actually i am more interested in people joining. they will bring the soul to the table vs the "unconscious brains" of bots.


It's ironic that Nostr is "technically" censorship-resistant because people are "practically" reluctant to post anything controversial or personal.

It might as well just be GM bots and meme bots and anime bots.
Dead Nostr.


Yes lol Dead Nostr Theory.

There is hope tho :)


Don’t feed the troll.


The Nostr trending algo works backward to Twitter.

It nudges you to talk only about Nostr and Bitcoin, or to post platitudes, famous quotes, sexy pics, and heart-warming pictures of nature and food.

It's an anti-intellectual algo.
An anti-literary algo.
An anti-contemplation algo.
Any original, complex, or unsettling thought gets buried 6 feet down and a pile of GMs gets poured on top, to seal it in.


what is the nostr trending algo?


No such thing, but outrage is a currency.


Yeah, nobody wants to be seen zapping something someone else might not like. Conformity without end, enforced by social pressure.


LOL I'm living rent-free in this guy's head.


Whichever one Band and Primal are using (Freerse uses Primal, I think). They get very similar results, so the logic is probably similar.


Are you talking about some specific algo? How do you know what counts?


Center of the universe much? You know, I follow other people…


I always see your notes. It would be nicr to have lists though


Prove it by posting someplace else.


Reverse-engineering based upon results.


We need to end the mild admonishing the mild to be milder.


I've mentioned having hidden zaps (reactions and likes generally) would be a good feature. This could include invisible zapping too I suppose.🤔

It's actually one of the most sensible features Instagram implemented (somewhat coerced into it, but still).


It just struck me that I was becoming "algo trained", like the worst sort of Tik-Toker.
Should I post a picture of a beetle or a rant about wealthy men being cheapskates?

That beetle post woulda done numbers, yo. Other post got me nothing but some new trolls. 🙄


We actually have private zaps implemented on Amethyst. 🤷♀ Zaps have become mega-public, lately, with zap ratings.


It was a bad guess


I think it's fine really. The 'top zappers' thing. It makes sense in the way that YouTube superchats do. Would be cool just to have an option to opt out too. Not really a big deal.

I had no idea amethyst had private zaps tho 👀


I like this type of notes. They generate debate and generate interactions.

Nostr should be seen as a community, with agreements, with disagreements and with controversies.

Followed.


Damus also has private zaps 💜


It's mostly just a bunch of GMs and press releases from top-10 gigantic accounts and the occasional picture of someone's arse.


My algo has mostly been your complaints all day today


Hell, that’s what I see in my feed.


Ah, does it?
Looking forward to subscribing.


maybe you just shouldn't care about likes. that dowry comment got a ton of interesting discussion.


It's fine, but it'll make the dullness duller.


I hadn’t realize that because I rarely check the trending 🤔 Good to know.


Sounds like you need to better curate your feed. I've had the EXACT opposite of what you claim as my own personal experience


Could the algo be improved? Or any other way to improve the state of things?


The issue is that Nostr is competing with other channels I have to post stuff, same as with all other writers.
I can have the same interesting convo with the same people elsewhere. Nostr has to work to get me to write something publicly and take all the heat, so it has to add some value.

Npubs are taking the more interesting stuff off-Nostr to Telegram or SimpleX or whatever, or putting up walled gardens, and Nostr is stuck with the "post a picture of a pretty leaf" and "here is my software update" leftovers.


Strange coincidence that we independently created algos returning same stuff.


But I am hungry and ready to discuss the Cartesian principal


Oh, in that case. Enjoy!


This post about how notes about Nostr trend on Nostr....

... is trending. 😂


nostr:nprofile1qyv8wumn8ghj7enfd36x2u3wdehhxarj9emkjmn99uq32amnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwv3sk6atn9e5k7tcprfmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuargv4ekzmt9vdshgtnfduhszxmhwden5te0w35x2en0wfjhxapwdehhxarjxyhxxmmd9uq3zamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0qyfhwumn8ghj7ur4wfcxcetsv9njuetn9uqzp22rfmsktmgpk2rtan7zwu00zuzax5maq5dnsu5g3xxvqr2u3pd7ad6wwx   didn't you have a method for normalizing the effect of follower counts?


this is a strong point. the only way to naybe win is if censorship gets crazy elsewhere. but in that case people will start getting mad in person and not care about shit posting to nostr.


I was also thinking it'd be interesting to have a heat map that showed clusters of threads with active, lively interactions around the same topic, rather than only individual thread content.

More threads with a structure like

OP
A
  B
     C
      A
  B
     D
         A
         C
            D
 E

Instead of with "GM structure"

OP
A
B
C
D
E


First one had indentations, to show nested replies. Sorry.


The problem is that censorship resistance only adds value if you have freedom to reach a large, interested audience.

You can shout whatever you want into the forest, but if there is little response, did you even say it?


I have a good feed, too.


Penis


Where's Twitter mentioned? Or is this article outdated: https://www.yakihonne.com/article/naddr1qvzqqqr4gupzqgycd7urua6ajmgc3jjunhcseekkz0swkljhdzs0pvftxlx6cgdnqq256dm4vc6kw3pex3p8znp394u8sef4de5xjrpaevq


Don't have to check. When something trends, the responses received perceivably  jump.

Goes from like 4 responses to 40, within an hour, and your follower count starts climbing and the zapping starts.


It's already more sophisticated than that.


Then why is it still like
Jack
Calle
Jack
Calle
Jack

That's literally what it is, right now. 🤷♀


Highlighter fixes this

nostr:nevent1qqsx4zahdz9h03rv8enwcn8pgmxrexnwz3zamjzuvpa8n3v3f0vr0gqpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0wd68ytnsw43qygxavex4usqkgvage45lqpdwzjqgqs630zd4nhj67p38dhn9vv7nrypsgqqqqqqs5d0l5f


I'm starting to like the idea of using Nip 32 for general discovery

note1hss8hntrc6x58kxejtgv788xgwh76t4z7vwyn4g624clqhdsuewqdjwnk0


How?


GM🫡


Ignoring the fact that "the Nostr trending algo" doesn't exist, I think this is more of an adoption problem.


I’m bored enough to scroll hard enough to find this, so we’re making progress


We have lists on Nostrudel


Thanks. I’ll have to check it out. It’s for ios and android ?


Nostrudel.ninja is primarily a Desktop client. After you make lists, other clients like Amethyst on Android will show your lists in a drop down menu


apples to oranges


I just discovered Nostur also has a custom feed functionality where I can make lists 🤙🏾


🪴 I want more unsettling thoughts! 🪴


You can work with:
1. Diminishing returns: on followers counts, zaps, replies, ...
2. Looking at thread length in the replies as an indicator of real conversation beyond "GM, GM"


He says they're doing all of that, but it has little discernable effect.
Probably because the deviation/spread in follower count is so humungous.


If it didn't exist, the dulling effect of it wouldn't exist. But it exists and it's tangible. You probably don't notice because you're writing about your area of expertise (which conveniently happens to be Nostr) and receiving lots of feedback because you have a gazillion followers.

The avert human responses and the measurement of them being the algo results in an intellectual "flight to safety", where there are a few popular topics and correct opinions and you can hardly break out of that mold, even if there is an audience for it.


Yeah, the onboarding of most apps doesn't really help either with that humongous difference.

I'm surprised looking at thread length wouldn't have an influence. That's the first crude algo I'd use to find actual conversation (like this one)


Well, length alone would strongly favor a GM post. Only measuring depth/width/nesting, would uncover interaction.


Yes! That's exactly what I mean with "length" (oops 🤦)


Oh, okay. I don't know, if they've taken this into account.


Maybe humans just aren’t that interesting?


A lot of this is probably down to the idea that nostr is a replacement of twitter, but what is really meant by that is specifically bitcointwitter, imo. Primal sidebar feels like an exercise in appealing to those who miss bitcointwitter content lol. I think there's growing demand for other stuff (non-bitcoin content).

I think a lot nostr makes sense through this lens. Nostr is successful at replacing bitcointwitter.

So yeah it's an adoption issue too, and the unofficial algos and meta incentives (zap nudge unit) reinforce this.

I'm agreeing with everyone lol


I mean it's all fine and mostly none of my business lol. I'm a non-dev user lolol.

Primal can do whatever it likes obvs, but it's often recommended to noobs, and they will see that sidebar and probably not join, unless they're coming from bitcointwitter, in which case they may join. Or they may just think nah, I prefer bitcointwitter.

And tbf to the bitcointwitter people, they also complain about nostr not being varied enough lol.


Maybe that's because people here care about what these people say.

I may be wrong, would you consider championing a fix for potentially broken nostr trending algos?

We have history of trending on nostr.band, all data is available on our relay and API, construct a better trending list than what we had for yesterday, and I bet people will zap you like crazy. I will give 500k for algo that's consistently better.


And you can counter with Trending / What's Hot / Recommended Users on any platform is always shit. Which is true. But most platforms don't have a majorly off-putting, bitcoin tourettes (feedbacklooped with incentived zapfarming), problem:)


Obviously, people here care about what those people have to say, but everyone follows them, already, so the trending list adds no information, and many people arriving probably don't care about what they have to say and see the trending list and assume this is just a shrine to a few personalities and a place to say incomprehensible texts full of naughty words.


Perhaps we really can come up with something "better", that doesn't merely list the things everyone has already seen, but that aids discovery of interesting conversations. This is merely a statistical problem.

We will think about it. 🤔


Ok, construct an "onboarding" list for yesterday that you believe would work well for newcomers, that's a very needed thing that nobody solved yet.


I think nostr:nprofile1qythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnswf5k6ctv9ehx2ap0qyfhwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnxxaazu6t09uq35amnwvaz7tms09exzmtfvshxv6tpw34xze3wvdhk6tcqyrafsj7hmweg9ur7zmn6apajdg48hxuskujx53rhrux0ttjcqx84y2yrw28  and nostr:nprofile1qydhwumn8ghj7argv4nx7un9wd6zumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcprfmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuargv4ekzmt9vdshgtnfduhszythwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn99uq3vamnwvaz7t69v3jkutnwdaehgu3wd3skuep0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qg5waehxw309aex2mrp09skymr99ehhyee0qqsfnw64j8y3zesqlpz3qlf3lx6eutmu0cy6rluq96z0r4pa54tu5eq974x04  are already working on it. Can they be in on the bounty?


You assume people are constantly watching their feeds. I don't. I get a lot of value from the trending.


No, most people look at trending, is what I assume. Some of the clients have it really prominent.  But if trending just looks like what their feed would look like anyway.... 🤷♀

Who isn't following Jack, Gigi, Lyn, Odell, Calle, and Carla, or having their content reposted ad nauseum in their feed?

The trending list seems to mostly be a condensing of our feeds, so that each post only appears once, rather than 58 times. 😂 So, that is value added.


I've created an onboarding relay "theforest", as I started with lists, but they were too static.

nostr:nprofile1qyfhwumn8ghj7mmxve3ksctfdch8qatz9uqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshszrthwden5te0vfexytnfduhsqgxqvze3lc4mkzly6wfmclzq4qyy3gjm3u8q7wpvkk6fcdalw3mvkst5kamd   has the idea for rings.


It needs to be something more dynamic, at any rate, but not necessarily an algo. The ring idea is something inbetween, like a group-edited list.


Another problem I ran into with lists is that they're limited in length and unidimensional.


As I said I will zap 500k for a better trending or onboarding algo. Ideas are good, but easy.


Yes, talk is cheap. We will see.
Interesting challenge. 🤔


I only follow 2 of those, I try not to follow funny eyes people and those with hodl in their name, I'm possibly doing Nostr wrong?


Also deliberately stay to the as it happens feed, that's just my preference.


sadly I'm yet to see a single nude in my feed


now the test is to see if my feed starts populating with naked women in cardboard boxes 👀


Humans are more interesting because they are more chaotic than a bot brain. They have a soul which can tap into higher dimension wisdom. Bot brain will always produce what is within their matrices, although sometimes they produce different thanks to probabilistic nature, they are still confined within their parameters. Give it the same context and low temperature and run it 100 times. Most of the times it will generate similar outputs.


Absolutely. But we are talking global stuff here, not personalized. And for newcomers you have nothing to personalize on, they don't follow anyone yet. We may all agree personalized is better than global (and yet most apps still haven't adopted it?), but if you want or need global, then please show me algo that's much better, I will happily zap it and use it.

Personalised is easy, most people don't follow junk, so input is high quality. Try any simple algo on global and you'll get garbage. Or maybe not, then you get zapped and everyone wins.


For a client side only approach, train your own algo against the nostr global feed here: https://cafe-society.news/nostrposts. Today I'm setting up encrypted algo synchronization between devices over nostr using y-ndk.  y-ndk needs stars: https://github.com/colealbon/y-ndk


Not intuitive interface. No idea, what I'm looking at.