Thoughts about this?  What solutions are possible for parents of young families?

https://medium.com/@manufernandez/the-shrinking-world-of-childhood-free-ranging-9ca11c202064


don't live in the city with the commie nannie statists, in fact live so far from the nearest school you can easily be allowed to homeschool them

and then go walking with them everywhere

that diagram in the article is horrifying to me, i am only born mid 70s and i many times walked 5km or more, at age 10 i was visiting friends 10km away and spending all day on weekends riding my skateboard everywhere

my range was more like the great grandfathers, and my mother was not a latch key mother either... and she would go on big walks with us sometimes too, and sometimes we would go out to visit friends out in the country and on their big farms roam wherever we wanted to basically


thats interesting. i had noticed something like this. Im not sure of an easy solution but parents could more directly engage in relationship building and navigating their communities with thier children so there would be more trust but i feel theres been a fear epidemic (whether justified or not) and its not likely that perceptions of safeness of the community will change. people such as gatto and peterson have talked about unsupervised play as being necessary for orientation of the world fir children.


Agreed, except for the "don't live in the city" part.

I will continue to beat on this drum—moving out into rural areas simply isn't realistic for many, or even most people, for a variety of reasons.

That said, most suburbs are pretty safe.  Get to know your neighbors so they'll recognize your kids when they're out playing or exploring on their own.  It's isolation that is the problem.


I agree we have to get to know our neighbors.  That's crucial.

The way to break the fear culture may be to create bubbles of a counter-culture.  Maybe we should make a point to move so as to be near like-minded families.  If there is no consensus favoring unsupervised play, we have to build one, and let it spill naturally out into our communities.


yeah, if your work requires your physical presence, sure, but people need similar work done out in the country too

the more people per square kilometer the more likely there is to be a psychopath near you and the easier and cheaper it is for the government to abuse you

if the target audience for this is normies, sure, but if it's bitcoiners or nostriches i think they need to understand that you can live away from the cities in most professions if you have got a bit stacked to take the leap and weather the startup process


Bitcoiners and Nostriches are, frankly, elites by broad standards.  Many are knowledge workers who can work remotely with a good Internet connection, and many others are homesteaders or otherwise interested in self-sufficiency.  That's far from the middle of the population bell curve, by any standard.

As you said, if that's the target audience, then yeah, you can move out of the cities.  But that's a small fraction of the population at large.


Get Out, Get Out, Get Out.
How many times must it be said....


The sooner these shithole cities burn, the better. lol.


I worry about this a lot. I think the size of the circle is dictated by who else you can expect to be in that circle with them. With the automobile it could be anyone.

Cul-de-sacs suck but are desirable because they remove a variable. I want to put roads under ground so kids can have the run of the neighborhood again.


Of course, you can get that in a city. Just build an ethnic enclave by coalescing around a particular neighborhood. That's how the foreigners in German cities do it.

Avoid any neighborhood with transient renters.


I think location matters. I was allowed to walk multiple miles and disappear for a couple days, but we usually just told our parents to expect that and rhe general place we would be (the woods camping, a friend's house, etc). We lived in rural Georgia and Alabama in those years. There were few people around. A kid wandering off for miles/days in a place like New York City obviously has a completely different set of concerns compared to a kid in the rural south who grew up in the woods with guns, knives, fire, etc. I didn't worry much about getting kidnapped, raped, etc in the woods with my friends. In a city of millions of people, probably. But we also had other dangers to learn about (snakes, animals, etc). It's contextual.


"building an ethnic enclave" would mean gathering free range/bitcoiner/homesteader types and everyone deciding to converge on an area

not hard to see how the rural setting will tend to be the main option chosen


Rural people live in isolation and away from infrastructure and amenities. Mostly (fat) people hiding in their homes or yards, and drinking or eating themselves to death. City people try to live out here, but the social isolation and low median intelligence drives them batty. Without the Internet, I'd go mad.

We've had the best life in large towns or smaller, quieter cities. County seats.


yeah, making prescriptions for other people is a waste of time

most people are in a trance 24/7


I don't only want to live around free-range/bitcoiner/homesteader types. I like a mix of people. Otherwise, every conversation just has one viewpoint, again, which is incredibly dull and will rot the brain.

That's why I prefer Nostr meetups to Bitcoin ones. More diverse population. More interesting conversation.


Most people in our village never leave the house, other than to go to work or the city stores (and now they even get groceries delivered). There are about 200 of us, that you see everywhere and that run everything, and we all know each other.


Rural Europe is also becoming dotted with refugee centers and prisons. There are villages with more refugees than villagers, now.


Yeah, out here we have other scary stuff, like wild boar, hunting accidents, poisonious, rabies, ticks, hornets, drownings, random nutjobs or refugees who camp in the woods, etc. There was a guy who turned his German shepherds violent and would sic them on hikers for the lulz. Glad he's dead.

We also have a crazily-skewed sex ratio, so women leave fests hours before the men do.

A large town or cozy suburb is probably the best place to raise children, on average, but those places are getting expensive.
People mostly move out here because housing is cheaper.


that's why a lot of people are leaving europe for south america, eastern europe, and asia


i'm sure that some psychotic bureaucrat will become aware of the peace of your location and send the migrants to you


The Turks and Russians were smart. They would all converge on one neighborhood and drive out the Germans. Now, they have whole sections of the cities to themselves.


Basically nomads. Not an option for people who have extended families, unless you can get the entire family to join you.

We have half the family on each side of the ocean and it keeps us broke, flying back and forth every year or two.


this is what all the refugees will be doing

it's what Nassim Taleb says, people are not xenophobic, they are homophilic

they want to be around their own kind

some of us are wild animals that's why we like the wide open spaces


Impossible to hide from migrants, forever. They migrate. 🤷♀


history has cycles, we are in another war phase and nomads have the best chances of survival, because the inertia of social obligations is how they slaughter so many people in wars

the future belongs to those who don't go down with the ship

my obligation only is to obey God and to follow Jesus, everything else is man-made


We actually know a lot of people (including ourselves) who ended up moving back home from overseas. And many people who are listed as "Germans leaving Germany" are not ethnic Germans. Their home countries, like Poland or wherever, have improved and they go back.


Exactly. There are extremes on both ends. My environment was hazardous, but not in the way some parts of Alaska, for example, would be for even trained adults. I don't think there's ever truly been a universal glory days when children everywhere could just venture off safely. It always has and always will be relative. Some people tend to romanticize the past as if everything has only gotten worse. Some hazards have merely been replaced by others, while some have been mostly eliminated. People who grew up in areas like mine decades before me had to worry about diseases caused by malnutrition while I didn't because of modern technology. Tradeoffs have always existed.


The future belongs to those with offspring.


they are being lured around, and used as human shields and culture bombs


that only requires two people... viz Noah


i'm from australia, only my third-degree separated ancestors are from other places, namely indonesia, netherlands, germany

i was told by a dude in prison that there is people with my family name in the city of Bonn,  so i guess probably also some in Dortmund and Essen and Koln... my opa grew up in Apeldoorn, which is nearby

my dutch relatives are all crazy and my mother's side of the family traces back to convicts and i hate the british isles, and ireland, with a passion, have spent 2 years too many there

i'm one of those people whose roots have been torn several times over and that is probably typical for this "nomad" type you talk about

evil has stolen from us a sense of roots and a place


Kids here used to trigger mines, left by the wars. Or get accidentally killed by farming machines.
And if you have domestic violence problems or suffer from depression or disability, and live out in the middle of nowhere, then it sucks to be you.


It looks so romantic and idyllic to visitors, but people kill themselves accidentally or in purpose, on the regular. Not in the least because many women hate it out here and run away to the town, as soon as the kids are old enough.
I have remote work and Nostr and church, to keep me sane. 🙏🏻

Everyone thinks about "where to raise kids" and ignores the "where to house your wife" aspect, but that's the aspect that dominates the majority of your life together.


It works for me because we travel a lot, work online, and I put a lot of effort into joining clubs and organizing meetups, and stuff. I think it's a bad idea for most women.


Noah didn't raise his children alone with his wife. They were all married adults, when they entered the ark.


Yes, but that's a rare trait. Social isolation is considered inhumane treatment because most humans are pack animals, not lone wolves.

Even wolves are not usually lone wolves.


They're also hiding from deportation, now.


Women and children actually get attacked by men in the woods, here, so we only go out alone in the village and adjacent field paths.


only criminals would be hiding


Sure, but that wasn't a problem where I grew up. That's my point. The whole issue is contextual. There isn't a place on earth where humans have no safety concerns and there never has been. There likely never will be. The only thing we can do is minimize our risk based upon our individual context. Unfortunately, that means kids can't do some things in some places that other kids in other places can. Or women, etc. I hate that anyone is harmed anywhere, but that has always been an issue to some degree for everyone everywhere. I'm losing track of the original topic now, but fuck the men doing that in your area.


And I strongly defend the right of women (and men) to put a bullet into anyone doing shit like that to stop the attack. We don't all get that right, unfortunately.


I've seen this exact situation play out. The man is oblivious, the wife leaves for someone older who goes on exotic vacations. The house in the small town has to be sold or the ex-husband buys her half from her at great cost. He's confused and bitter why she's ruined everything. She feels like she escaped something, but what exactly did she escape is unclear to her husband and son.


If I have to carry a gun to defend myself, then there's no real advantage over walking around a gated community or a middle-class town. At least people can hear me scream there, or might drive past.
That's my point. The woods and back fields just look empty, but there are German men who live out there or own forests or hunt or collect mushrooms. And some of them have been thirsty for decades or are just legit crazy.

I've heard stories and experienced some stuff. 😬 Feel safer in the town.


everyone knows deportation is just gonna mean being sent to one of the less popular places, so, germany/france/netherlands forwards em to italy, spain, greece, bulgaria, hungary, poland, slovakia

so, i still say only criminals will hide

or stupid people, which you also don't want in your village


All illegal immigrants are criminals. 🤷♀


criminals by which standard of law?


Noah's offspring must have been very un-stubborn or just into their late 30s to get back on board with the crazy Dad.


That bad? Wow.


No, deportation is a Ländersache here and Bavaria deports to home countries.

Someone was so desperate to escape the police, last week, that he threw himself into oncoming traffic. Five cops grabbed him, tied him up, and carried him to the car. Right in front of us, out shopping. They had no fucks to give.

And neither did we.


well, that's nice, but there's dozens more where he came from and the ones throwing out the bait are playing a long game


Yup. And that was already before the refugees came. There are men who just wander around. And some go out there and drink or whatnot. Or they watch from behind logpiles.

There are good and bad men, everywhere.


Yeah, there is no completely safe space. There is danger involved in being surrounded by many people, but also in being isolated from most people.


Tables have turned.


They were probably just humoring him and were surprised by the rain.


Immigration law.


That's for sure. But I never heard about similar situation here in Czechia.
Maybe like in few very specific hotspots, but even there it was more like "fear of something could happen" then actuall attacks...


maybe but how long until they find a new vector, the long game has to be about purging this kind of megalomaniac troublemaker from the species


Unfortunately, this is a growing concern in many places. I see all kinds of goofy stuff in the emergency department related to issues like this.


We have had attacks, but women have mostly given up walking alone, that far out. I only walk alone where I can be seen from the street or on very popular paths.


what about international law of displaced persons by actual war, famine or disaster? i think that ultimately trumps any stupid government statutes

good people won't leave their home for nothing, you have just been elaborating upon that subject today quite extensively, even citing the behaviour of two ethnic groups and their enclave formation practices


there is also the possibility that there was literal angels, giant hybrid man/angel types of 20' stature, and that Noah really was like - what does it say, 400 or something?

i haven't got a satisfactory theory yet for the strange longevity numbers in these old texts, the conventional ratio theories just don't quite work for me, and when you understand what a pole shift does to the landscape the "no stone left upon another" imagery suddenly comes into focus

is it possible that humans did literally live into their multi-hundreds at one time, and due to the degradation of DNA and adoption of sugar based diets the lifespan decreased to what was warned about after the expulsion from the Garden?

it would be very difficult to guess at all, as it is genetic science is still pretty nascent and longevity is not well understood, we at best have an estimate that 150 years is possible with current knowledge with optimal treatment

and if all the fossils they know about were literally buried as little as 6000 or maybe 12000 years ago, and everything else before that is entirely lost, and these examples are extremely rare cases, then all bets are off, if you ask me

can't say yes or no, only that there is stories, and that hypothetically it is possible, given the right genes that we are not aware of


Rural areas used to be emptier. But so many people move out to the country, or are into nature sports or hunting and gathering, that the forests have more traffic. And now e-bikes.

The village is also 4 times larger than in the 80s, after all, and the city bus comes out here, now.


Do you also have the homeless camps? We see them sometimes, on hikes. We didn't use to have those.
And I swear men have started living permanently in the hunting cabins.


I am not an open borders proponent, by any stretch of the imagination.


I'm not sure if you think we disagree on something, so I'll just make it clear that we don't in case I've given that impression. Every place is different and therefore there is no one strategy for how to best live or raise children. That's the only point I was ever trying to make. I'm glad you feel safer in your town vs the local fields, but safety is relative and has more factors than just humans. I carry a gun everywhere, but that isn't for everyone (like children, maybe you or others, etc). Different places, cultures, laws, etc. I never meant to say that your woods are safer, only that mine were, which is why it's unfair to say all children should live the same way everywhere.


Rather, it would be unfair to say that parents can or should necessarily do anything differently. It could be that you're already doing the best you can within your ability and in accordance with the tradeoffs you prefer.  There are disadvantages to the good old days or locations like where I grew up that get romanticized away by posts like the OP. Being way out in the middle of nowhere indeed meant I could stray father and be safer than in Atlanta, but we were also extremely poor comparatively.


I don't think we're disagreeing.

A lot has to do with WHERE the rural area is. Like, it's maybe in the middle of nowhere and then suddenly a major road or train line is built, or the tiny airport or seaport gets enlarged, or a factory opens up, or it gets listed as a nice place to mountainbike on some travel show, and BOOM, you've got traffic.
Still rural, but no longer as isolated, and with strangers wandering around.

This place used to be so cut-off that they have their own local foods and dialect, and now people live here and commute to Munich and bike tours and hiking routes come through. And now they're opening up an "industrial district" and we get food trucks and Amazon Prime delivery.

We even have traffic jams and a truck stop. We used to not even get trucks. 😂🤷♀

And there's a medieval village a half hour away that just got a logistics center. Village is still like 400 people, but heavy traffic in and out, all day, right next to them. Soon, there will be a gas station and then a grocery store and then... But still only 400 people.


Yes, my city has them and healthcare workers have become social workers as a result. Fortunately, I live kind of outside the city amongst the farms, but I'll have to move in a few years. I like having a mix of the good from each. Things are getting worse everywhere, I'm afraid.


Yeah, we're in a farming village within an hour of various urban sprawls.


That seems to be the kind of setup that makes me most happy, but things are declining everywhere. It's mostly drugs and property crimes in our smaller towns. A lot of it is actually perpetrated by people who come from the cities, interestingly enough. It's a way of reducing the odds of being caught or convicted for smaller crimes in the US due to how our jurisdictions work (my incentive theory).


Complex topic for sure...

I think it comes down to a couple things:

a) Changes in society - people no longer really fear God (or live by His rules) so murder, rape, etc. are perfectly acceptable behaviors for those people

b) Given the above, then each person must weigh their options -- if you're comfortable protecting yourself, then rural / individual life makes sense. If however you're not, then being around others (i.e. city life) makes sense as you have to rely on them to protect you in the event of any attack.

Sad, but the real issue here is (a) and not (b)...


number one self defense is flight


At some point it comes down to whether you'd rather die than live under tyrrany--only then will people truly take action.

Venezuela may be at that point...


Try running with a bunch of children and disabled people and elderly.


i'm so flighty that i'll flee at the first whisper of credible martial law or impending arrival of an invading force

i'm used to running, because i've had to several times in my life


if enough people leave the neighbours will send help for the rest


that's the thing you see

the weak need to follow the strong, or society ends up in a place where only the strong can escape from the meatgrinder

strong people don't bow down to kings


and it's been way past that point for a long time

it is obvious that many people are willing to die with their families

good for them, my family couldn't give a damn


also, if you were lucky enough to have someone show up and give you a credible warning that the village you lived in was going to fall into the ground because of a giant cavity and impending seismic effect, are you leaving?

if your whole household was provided this information, and nobody had any reason to doubt it, will you stay for the sake of your neighbours comfort and inevitably die or are you gonna go and not turn back like Lot?


the enemy (yes, THAT enemy) has ground everyone down so hard now that they are resigned to his victory over them

the enemy cannot spread his violence everywhere, it is exemplary, so, yes, in most cases you are gonna be fine but the longer he has the more examples that will be made and the lower your chances of avoiding it

many people could see what was coming from Hitler, but they decided against the clear danger to stay, and next thing you know they are being herded into trains


I don't fear god and don't even believe in one, yet I don't think rape and murder are acceptable. One doesn't need to completely sell out intellectually to be moral.


Happens daily where I live 💜🫂


there are some pretty wiley elderly people out there  i'm not sure if they aren't made of rubber.


this will be me in 50 years time

and i'll be damned if i'm gonna die younger than my great opa (98)


It can also be expanded by who you expect to be in the circle.  If kids are meeting up with friends at a park a mile away, and you know a few of the neighbors in between, that's going to be a quite safe radius.


Writer Lenore Skenazy tells a story about how she let her son explore New York on his own one day.

He wanted to see if he could find his way home on the subway system from an unfamiliar location, so she dropped him off in a pretty safe mall and he made his way back on his own.

When you went camping in the backwoods of Georgia, I'm sure your parents allowed it in part because they were confident in the ability of you and your friends to navigate your environment.  A city is just another environment with its particular opportunities and dangers, and a kid confident in navigating the city environment will be much safer miles from home than a kid a few hundred yards into the woods for the first time.


Some American national parks are facing problems with overcrowding.  Not what you'd expect, but there it is.


Another aspect is, as we've grown more isolated, we've stopped trusting strangers.  In most cases, this distrust is entirely unfounded.  But no one talks to strangers, so who would know?

A confident child is actually at much lower risk than a timid one.  Timidity is a vulnerability, and predators prey on the vulnerable.

Most kids in most places would, I think, be safe if they're with one or two siblings or friends, and if they know how and when to approach adults to ask for help.


The replies to this post are, to me, very telling.

Nostriches/Bitcoiners would rather flee to the country in self-imposed exile rather than seek to improve their communities in urban/suburban areas.

That's not even addressing the fundamental unrootedness and atomization of today that makes picking up and moving like that thinkable.

nostr:nevent1qqswctta0z5l244fegpve55pkpare8u4fp2nt4jad4qearc9w8sh8sqprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7q3qwqfzz2p880wq0tumuae9lfwyhs8uz35xd0kr34zrvrwyh3kvrzusxpqqqqqqzllmdjk


yes, they have eyes in the back of their head, wit, mind reading capabilities, and skin like leather, no glasses. it's possible. my great Aunt only stopped playing tennis at 95 because they make them sign up online. not that she can't use the computer, she totally emails and such, but more because it feels silly tapping a check box on the schedule when you're used to just showing up on the court.


Yes. My kids have a very small radius because My wife and I are introverts. In nearly 8 years of living in this town we have made 0 close friends. We don't know the people in the next house much less whoever lives by the park.

In my defense all the neighbors that I did know recently moved away. But they were all retired. We accidentally moved to a neighborhood with nearly no kids.


yeah, granny is right, fuck their stupid commie bureacracy


yes, because you get coerced into letting your children be brainwashed in day prisons, for a start

and being registered and all this other shit, and you can't trust your neighbours, or the police

out in small country towns between 500-10k people none of these things are true, you can negotiate with everyone, smaller is better for less government influence

psychopaths use population to hide themselves, and then they force their desires on everyone around them and make themselves invisible, this is just facts

the dunbar number exists for a reason - it's a cognition limit, and beyond that limit, lie dragons


Homeschooling.
You'll naturally let kids explore much more.
Even from necessity, because otherwise you'd go crazy guarding them all the time 😁


No, in fact selling out intellectually would preclude moral perfection as failure to employ the faculty of reason where appropriate would be an abuse.

You do, however, imply that fearing or believing in God would be selling out intellectually. I see no reason to make that conclusion. That you personally have not seen compelling evidence for God is not a proof that others have not either and are behaving irrationally.


Yeah, my kids travel all over the place, together and with a group of friends. They've always been relatively free-range.

People raise their kids to be completely paranoid, rather than savvy and alert. The parents hardly leave the house, either, so that's probably the underlying issue. The kids aren't learning by observing their parents walking and biking and bussing around in public.


Yeah, my parents grew up poor in rural areas and were horrified when we moved out there. They'd both rather die than move back out to the country. 😂

And I really do know women that had nervous breakdowns and literally ran away from home.


There actually aren't as many truly physically isolated places, anymore, except in inhospitable areas. Just thinly-populated places.

But Venice is also thinly-populated, in a way, if you go by residents per square km.


we have computers and cars now, there really is no need for this excessive congregation


and what you are saying really reinforces the assertion that women are deeply fearful and vulnerable to manipulation


I was homeschooled and had a fair bit of freedom to explore on my own.  No cell phones either.  Just told my parents where they could expect me to be.


Oh agree completely--threre are indeed some sane atheists--and yet those that DO feel that it's ok to "murder death kill" (with apologies to Simon Phoenix) almost without exception do not believe in a higher authority...


Think that depends on locale...pretty much guaranteed to have a stranger say hi to you here, and strike up a conversation...if fact, it's kind of odd if they don't...


What are you basing this on? You're making the claim as if it's fact, but haven't cited any evidence. Studies of inmates in the US, for example, disagree. Most of them are not atheists.


Your belief about atheists is actually a pretty well studied bias, by the way. Here is just one example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151

And you also say 'God' and 'His rules' as if that is some clear definition or morality. Which god? There are thousands. Which rules? There are many different rules, even amongst the Abrahamic religions alone. Much rape and murder has been committed in the name of god. There are examples explicitly in the Christian Bible saying it is okay to kill people for reasons I and many Atheists would say is wrong. I think you're just biased like most people.

You also say there are some sane atheists, as if sanity is at play. Do you also think most Atheists are insane? I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that Atheisism or religion is an indicator of sanity. Insanity doesn't really accommodate things like morality, religion, or reason. You can't really measure the beliefs of an insane person due to the detachment from reality.


Hi Stella, hast Du irgendwo Bibelzusammenfassungen gepostet?Ich fand das interessant, aber finds es auf Nostr nicht mehr...


Run to a place with no hand outs. No freeloaders will migrate there.


Those are the places they came from. 😂


Was für Zusammenfassungen? Ein Aufsatz oder...?


Wie eine zusammenfassung einzelner kapitel auf Englisch. Bin dann aber eingeschlafen und finds es nicht mehr...


very often, yes, but not always

pretty much everything east of the old iron curtain has no handouts for immigrants either, at least not much anyway

when i was in prison in 2014 they segregated foreigners and most of my fellow prisoners were from middle east and north africa and they all wanted to go to germany as soon as they got their BG papers

there was some actual migrants, quite a few nice looking african people that i saw around in the years following in Sofia but pretty much all the low lifes and syrians and iraqis and morooccans and algerians passed straight through

a few got shot trying to skip into bulgaria via Turkey back then too, suffice it to say that bulgaria was not friendly to these freebie hunters


yes, in bulgaria law at least back then, they had to spend like 6 months in jail waiting for court to decide if they were gonna be sent back

suffice it to say it was effective, there was only about maybe 60 such people locked up with me in the city of Sofia

there was a few syrians in the low sec prison i got transferred to but they were in for criminal penalties, one interesting one was a syrian doctor who was accumulating heroin to convert to methadone to take back to damascus


Prima facie - and people in prison often come to change their outlooks.

If you believe in God, then you know murder is wrong. You can (of course) choose to go against God's word...

But if you do not believe in God, then there is nothing holding you back...the only person you answer to is yourself...and you may in fact give yourself permission to kill...


You seem to feel I'm predjudiced against atheists...I'm not.

I'm simply saying that there are 10 Commandments to live by--anyone can choose to follow them or not.

Atheists decide what is right based on their own personal views, and therefore atheists can give themselves permissions to do whatever they'd like without consequences.

Christians (and many other religions) do not condone murder, and there are consequences for those that choose to ignore God's guidance and go their own path. And those consequences do indeed serve as a deterrent.

You may (of course) be able to find and serve outliers as examples, but that doesn't change the fact that those believing in God (and living by HIs words) are less likely to commit crimes than those that only have to listen to themselves to determine what is right.

Individual moral relativism is not the answer...


I think it because you have made it clear with your own statements.


Logic is not prejudice...

Life is a cost-benefit analysis (for everything). If you believe the costs are low, and the benefit is high, you'll do it. If the costs are high and overwhelm the benefits received, you won't.

When God is involved the costs go up. Without God, the costs are what each person personally determines them to be.

Simple...cost benefit