Patreon is doing good, but will still rug pull you, the creator. Is your favorite Nostr app the solution?

nostr:nevent1qqsxqcwvrm8ly4k9662qjha25wzdu8a0k3q4g03f7rkrp72p2gdesqg6hhvzj

That talk on YT is really good! Patreon guys seem to deeply understand the creator's needs and problems. And it looks like they're building a good product to try to solve it.

https://image.nostr.build/aa0b78f35fe43bf89bb2bffb062b9ee785fdd217f38a2d650435295e39dd83f8.png

The issue there of course is that Patreon is building a content platform - a single corporate entity that will eventually be forced to change course and will rug pull creators. This is when, not if.

So where should creators talk to their true fans? Where should the conversation happen? Is it one of the high-quality free open source Nostr apps - Damus, Amethyst, Primal, Habla, Highlighter, Zap.stream...?

You still don't own that place, right? Yes it's easy for you to switch from one app to another on Nostr, but now you have to ask all your fans to switch too, right? "Please please please talk to me in app B, not app A"?

Maybe, the right place to talk to your fans is not an aggregator-type discovery-focused Nostr app. Maybe it's something else.

I believe there is a better solution, and it's getting ready for launch. Stay tuned!


:handshake:


Exciting


Will it make it easier for people who don’t have bitcoin to tip/support creators? That is one of the biggest hurdles Nostr faces.


Maybe a little, in theory, if you can figure things out yourself. Can't say more yet.

Why do you believe this is the biggest hurdle? Are there so many people using nostr who want to tip but don't have a wallet?


wallet np, infrastructure sec. & ease


my 2 sats


Can you expand please? People on nostr have wallets but somehow can't pay?


The issue is not necessarily the people already using nostr, although there are some here who openly say they won’t spend their bitcoin due to tax implications. But for me the bigger issue/hurdle is the people that an established artist/creator would want to onboard to nostr vs. Patreon. Most people don’t have bitcoin and even fewer are those who have it and will spend it. An artist trying to bring in their existing audience is going to have no way to monetize if they are first forced to orange pill and teach a bunch of people how to use bitcoin. And most artists can’t afford the time that would require.


I’m excited that you’re approaching the issue of building something to replace Patreon. I don’t want my question/feedback to sound like I think it’s a bad idea. But if bitcoin payments are the only option, then an artist’s supporting audience will be limited to only those people who have Bitcoin AND are willing to spend it.


That's until an entrepreneurial Nostr app dev gives each onboarding user a few thousand sats to get them started, and finds a way to seamlessly onramp fiat directly to the user's completely integrated LN wallet. People should not have to deal with a separate signer, LN wallet, Nostr app, fiat onramp...


I’m still trying to hook things up so I can stream via my own site but not understanding the web stuff is super frustrating.

Zapstream is good, it’s worked well so far but it’s still not data sovereign.

The other thing is culture. Bitcoiners have pissed off a lot of people over the years and I’ve already had the odd comment about being more focussed on it. My reasons go pretty deep and I won’t bore you but I know if I was hosting on my own site using something like Owncast I’d get a lot more support on Fedi.

I’m not hating on ZapStream at all, just reporting what’s going on.


The right place to talk to your fans = Communities
The right app = Chat app optimized for interoperable content


I think I that user and content discovery are key, no matter what. Being able to improve in this space will help creators.


A similar discussion should be sparked on mastodon


There’s also the governing class and their masters the elite which will have them force rug you


just as in the past with wallets/what's the best/so many choices which take research & slow process/a journey 4 an average person like me/still trying to streamline trusted sources


have wallet journey behind me/


Thanks, that makes sense.


subject to change/which is daunting too keep up with/but fun


Ok this makes 100% sense and I agree, existing creators won't migrate until there is a frictionless path to monetizing _existing_ audience on nostr.


Can you please expand on how hosting (content/stream/etc) on your own site makes it better for you than on zap.stream? I'm not expressing doubts, I just want to learn more about your perspective.


Creator still doesn't own or control the app. Design/feature/culture/vision/etc decisions of the app may make it hard to use for the creator, and then migrating the audience elsewhere might be a big question.


Btw wdyt of Ditto by nostr:npub1q3sle0kvfsehgsuexttt3ugjd8xdklxfwwkh559wxckmzddywnws6cd26p  ? Sounds like a promising tool for creators to connect to their communities?


Yes, it's just a question of time.


It not really about Patreon (monthly payments to creators), it's just that Patreon is now moving into content platform direction - they're trying to solve the "where/how should you talk to fans" problem, and that what I'm looking at too.


You don't need your followers to change app, but you will find that if you tell your followers that you are moving, they will follow you anyway.

People aren't married to their clients. Users aren't on instagram because it is run by meta, they are on it because they can find the content they want on it and their favourite ifluencers are building for it, so even if the content is elsewhere, the platform is likely going to give the best experience.

Same will happen on nostr, but for those who are torn between their fandoms, or who are somehow married to their clients, they get to stay put. Freedom.

I think this also gives clients the freedom to focus on what they want too: features and community or relationship building tools. People will use one app to poke and share with their friends, and the other to support and fan out on their favourite creators. Yet the same content will be on both apps, maybe the apps will even interop so they can each focus on their specialities while operating on the same data.


I don't think followers will move if one of the creators moves. "The Chat app" means you talk to many creators there, and if one of them moves I'll have to install the new app just for them? An app per creator might make sense if it's been this way from the start, but not when I'm already used to using one "the best" aggregator app.


Wait, I don't get it.
Content = Interoperable
Creator and Audience members can choose from a free market of apps tat access/ interact with that content.
Or they can build/customize their own apps or tools for whatever aspect they need to.
Anyone can take ownership as deep down the stack as they want.

My main point is that, for both creator and audience, the best starting point for this bright future is a Chat app.
A chat app where every group is not just a chat but also an interoperable forum, an article publication house, a media server, ....


The Chat app as the ultimate format to talk to fans (a "floor plan" of your online space) makes total sense.

> Or they can build/customize their own apps or tools for whatever aspect they need to.

That's what I think might be the way to go.


Damn. If that's where you're going, you're sure getting me excited  🤩


My perspective is taking ownership of the data, I already have a domain. If it streams from that I 1: don’t have to pay addition fees 2: I can control what’s archived.

I don’t think Zapstream allows me to delete and the streams so far have all started poorly, especially the first ones where it kept going when OBS crashed.

Ive tried as much as possible to keep and use my data so I have Nextcloud, my music, PeerTube and Mastodon instances.

Personally I think Meta ruined the internet and I’m taking my little piece back!


Thanks a lot for the input!


I've seen content creators move, it happens over time and they tend to follow oneanother too. Content creators are in friendly competition, so if an app has a feature that helps build engagement, other content creators will jump on it too, and then eventually they will focus on building for the features they prefer.

That said: I expecy the cost to move between apps on nostr to be cheap AF compared to traditional platforms. Most content will be generically supported by all, and then maybe specialised features like merch stores will be on specific apps and people will need to use that app to access it.

Regarding the "one best aggregator app", I use #Amethyst, it is great, but I suspect that eventually many of the features will rot. I already don't use it for accessing streams, I favour zap.stream. Somehow I feel like it isn't as good on #Amethyst.

How things evolve is neither here or there, but at the very least, we should acknowledge, I can still see and interact with you on #Amethyst, even if you use something like #Primal.


A pleasure, interested to see what you're cooking up!


Agree with all you said, but there's more to "owning" your online space. Your preferred Nostr app might present your content well and be usable to talk to fans, but you still can't change the design of it, can't extend it the way you want, can't promote it in all ways possible and can't measure your marketing performance, etc. But that's a story for another day. Thanks for the detailed input!


For the sake of discussion and because I care a lot about this topic, I’m going to respectfully push a little on this. Please don’t take it any other way than trying to be constructive. When I watched his video of Conte speaking, one of the things that stood out to me was the goal of honing in on connecting with those true/super fans, and how to engage meaningfully with the “less committed” fans, and hopefully some of them growing into being the next true fans. The entire premise is predicated on the ability for fans at every tier to support the creator financially, which requires payments. Even the fans in the free tier on Patreon are able to buy merchandise. Direct payments to artists are central to the entire idea of what Patreon is doing, and I believe they should also be central to any nostr-centric counterpart. Bitcoin zaps are the best form of payment for this from a technical standpoint, but again the low bitcoin adoption in the general public makes it hard for an artist to rely solely on zaps, and that makes it difficult to devote significant time to building and engaging with a community on nostr vs. other platforms like Patreon. The payments are critical in my opinion, and it can’t be just bitcoin zaps, even though I wish it could be.


I absolutely love your perspective so please keep sharing it! I agree that ultimately it might be about the financial support in most cases.

What if existing creator invited their audience to use Primal, which sort of has fiat->zaps. They'd have to invite them somewhere, bcs their fans aren't on Nostr anyway. Could that work?


What do you mean by "you don't own that place"? If you and your fans are using Nostr clients the entire point is that no one "owns" any "place", right? Your client just interfaces with some relays, and people can use many different apps for that simultaneously, so no one ever has to switch clients -- if all is working according to the plan.

I'm very confused, please explain what you meant.


This is the reason why a Nostr app without interoperability from day one makes no sense and the reason why each developer going their own way without ever making an effort to cooperate with other developers and standardize their efforts is not very productive.


You kind of own a domain name, but not your profile page on Damus. If you have an interoperable customizable nostr app on your domain then you are much closer to owning that place.


You'll have to see it first.


I think Primal definitely has the easiest onboarding and wallet setup flow. Integration of a seamless fiat-to-Bitcoin payment service like Strike offers would go a long way. Still have the hurdle of getting your fans to sign up for it, and the reality that they’re not available in all regions, but it’s a step in the right direction as I see it. Curious what some of the active creator community already here thinks, like nostr:npub13qrrw2h4z52m7jh0spefrwtysl4psfkfv6j4j672se5hkhvtyw7qu0almy or nostr:npub19r9qrxmckj2vyk5a5ttyt966s5qu06vmzyczuh97wj8wtyluktxqymeukr


Yeah, agree. I think the die hard fans are going to go through the on boarding/ soft kyc of Primal to support their favorite content creators directly. I think artist should start making nostr only or nostr-early content to encourage that. Though doesn't Primal wallet use Apple pay with 30% apple tax?


Yeah, I am completely not following what you're saying then.


So you are a creator excited about nostr. You start using app A and like it, and you want your fans to join. You recommend app A and they start using it. Then app A changes - bans, censors, prioritises features you don't like etc. You've spent your clout to promote an app that you no longer like. You can switch, but it's hard to persuade your followers. That may or may not be a big or common problem, we don't know yet. But outbox model doesn't solve it. "Apps are interoperable" lowers the bar for switching, but it remains to be seen for how much. Does this make no sense?


I know you’ve got something in the works so I’m interested to see more, but I would have said this is why you use open source as a selection criteria for the apps you use. If they go in a bad direction, *you* or *someone else* in the community of users that also likes the app will fork it if the developers go in a direction that is bad. And it’s why we should select apps/clients that do things in an interoperable way so the switching cost stays low. But I don’t think other recourse exists.


The logical end of this path is "custom app per creator", which is roughly what I'm exploring now.


Interesting, god speed!


No, it doesn't make sense because the outbox model should solve bans, censorship and all that. And I assume no one ever switches apps. Why do you think the outbox model doesn't solve it?

I can see two problems there, but they feel unrelated: one is that as a creator you can recommend the wrong app -- an app that is not a real Nostr client, but something with the power to censor people -- and later regret; the other is that for a private community we need something else other than just outbox model, but I think we can stick to the outbox model for public posts in this discussion?


That sounds like a good idea.


I'm repeating myself but 👉  "Custom app per Community" 😉

Communities can be around any interest (including one specific creator).


Every app has power to censor people, no matter how 'real nostr' it is. Someone's there to blacklist a pubkey and push the 'commit' button and the app gets distributed to it's users one way or another and someone gets censored. The motives for blacklisting don't matter, but I've seen enough in recent years to know that's inevitable.

And I'm not even mentioning the lighter things like changes in design or features. App starts prioritizing Repost instead of Zap button and my audience's behavior changes without my control. Outbox doesn't fix that either.

I'm not saying outbox is failing/wrong, it does the job at the relay level and makes bans in 'real nostr apps' much less likely. But it doesn't solve everything.


Yes please


Technically an app was not supposed to change under me after it was installed on my device and we live in a dystopic world if that happens, but sure, yes, I get your point.

I suppose "an app per creator" would be just some creator adding some branding and distribution to an open-source codebase such that they have control over auto-updates for their community? Update lovers everywhere will complain that this creator will either have to comply with upstream updates that may damage the experience he initially wanted for the app or they will have to fork the base open-source codebase, which he will be unable to, or he will have to never update again, which is a sin. I am happy with any of the three options, though.


Devs are the new creators


> I suppose "an app per creator" would be just some creator adding some branding and distribution to an open-source codebase such that they have control over auto-updates for their community?

Basically yes, but also being able to selectively extend/change the app with plugins.

And even if creator is forced to do something (update, switch plugin etc), if that is happening on their own domain which fans are used to using then it shouldn't be an issue.

Bigger question then is - would "true fans" use best-art-by-megan.com or not. Need to figure that out.


Here's how you become one of those awesome devs -- the ones "upstream" -- that are shaping up to become the source of everything.

http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters


Onward 🫡

Onward 🫡