yes bitwise is launching an ethereum etf

i'm bitcoin first but not bitcoin only and if that's upsetting i'll take the heat. replies / dms open.

fwiw i think bitcoin and ethereum are completely different things. i know it can be super annoying when eth maxis are like "eth is even more sound than bitcoin!" but nobody takes that seriously. bitcoin is undeniably king as decentralized non-government money and that's not really up for debate

imo the question is around whether bitcoin wants to swallow the full range of public computing needs or leave room for the non core use cases (everything outside of sovereign money). i mean, stablecoins are undeniably a thing. non-custodial trading (uniswap) is also undeniably a thing.

i'm very happy that bitcoin hasn't morphed to make any of those things too easy on bitcoin. making stablecoins easier means making general token issuance easier. making non-custodial trading easier on bitcoin means more MEV risk on bitcoin. i'm happy that those experiments are playing out outside of bitcoin. maybe where i differ with many bitcoiners is that i am happy that those experiments are still happening.

anyways, happy to discuss this more. didn't want to seem like i'm hiding from this issue.


It's ok, I respect you guys still.


After listening to your citadel dispatch chat I'm disappointed to hear this; ethical earnings on a hard money standard is difficult. Guess everyone still has to get burned and learn the hard way...the cycle repeats


sorry to disappoint. anything in particular about the above that bothers you? just launching an eth etf to begin with?


I’m hopeful that one day bitcoin supports drivechain (bip300/bip301) to allow a real evm compatible layer2 to be supported by Bitcoin.

I’ll keep holding my Ethereum, but I think Bitcoin can address its long term miner incentivized security concerns by enabling this type of capability.


Curious your thoughts on the following questions:

Do you not see issuance of ETFs for POS networks as a centralizing move? Resulting in all your MEV related concerns flooding to the only truly decentralized network?

How can the value of an ETF reflect accurately the underlying when no one knows the true supply of the underlying asset?


Will a portion of fees from this ETF also go to open source devs? Same as with the Bitcoin ETF or different recipients?


Bitcoin should keep the use case of money only or at least mostly and improve on that, LN + other projects. Ethereum use case is none, uniswap and other defi stuff is all just gambling and highly inefficient one, eth is already dead, with the etf, development and hype narratives are dead, either way, bitcoin will have to compete with every asset that is SoV or MoE, in every battleground, that includes ETFs. Eth is not even a concern for Bitcoin, Bitcoin targets are Gold and USD.


will have to work through the details but most likely yes. likely through this entity (https://twitter.com/ProtocolGuild)


I am not sophisticted enough to know but this looks like a way for market makers to play paper games with the Eth/BTC trade to suppress the price of #₿

Major political string pull vibes


Great post⚡


Running a business and refusing to take people's money is a bad way to run a business. Give people what they want and stack sats 🤷♂


:turtlehappy:


i don't necessarily disagree with most of what you're saying here. but even if most of the stuff that trades on uniswap is just gambling non-custodial trading itself is a good idea. we would want the world to move more towards stablecoin + non-custodial trading rather than the existing custodial exchange paradigm.


If all the Eth people had a similar message,

I.e. - “bitcoin is of prime importance and its success is paramount, oh by the way we’re messing around over here with this ethereum thing which is a centralized premined science fair project, you’re welcome to join us as we explore these new things” … that would be great.

But alas the eth community is riven with scammers charlatans and hype men that are either delusional or malevolent or both.

Surely not all are like this but it seems like the dominant strain.

I’m town between, “shitcoins have been a great smokescreen for Bitcoin as it matures on its quest to eventually challenge the state” and “shitcoins have set Bitcoin back at least a decade and this amounts to an immense crime against humanity”


*im torn between


i think of ETFs are mostly a vehicle that brings public market liquidity (stock exchange trading liquidity) to bitcoin's market. it's like an IPO like thing. the asset is the same. liquidity around it changes a lot. bitcoin's price went up a lot since the ETF moment and i think it's a rational upward pricing by the market liking the same asset even more with more liquidity


We already have a solution for public computing, it’s called AWS. You don’t need a blockchain for that. Enjoy your fees.


" When the correlation between the two temporarily weakens, i.e., one crypto moves up while the other moves down, the pairs trade would involve shorting the outperforming crypto and longing the underperforming one, betting that the "spread" between the two will eventually converge. The divergence within a pair can be caused by temporary supply/demand shifts, large buy/sell orders for one crypto, reactions to significant news about a project or company, and so on. "


How is the premine explained to your investors?


If Ethereum is really trying to be something different from Bitcoin, why doesn’t the Ethereum network use Bitcoin as the base currency?


bitcoin is money and money only. it is not designed for anything else, nor capable without potential destruction of the protocol all have been defending.

ethereum, cardano et al have their own place too. they can if they govern themselves appropriately be the engine of industry. if tokens are the method of intermediary exchange by agreement - then so be it.

ultimately everything settles in bitcoin. the only truly hard money.
that said, it is not there yet. it still needs to manage scaling and overcome miner centralisation.

if wiser heads than mine can bring these issues to the table and negotiate in an adult manner, i am sure the world will be a much better place for it.

GM 🙃


This is too great. nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx

https://media0.giphy.com/media/lszAB3TzFtRaU/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952w7m3phg3qkev2dder43bes60xx1r3bdfh3u3ahnt&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g


Wen doge sol xrp. What a joke


RGB evaluation?


Everything those projects can do can be on a sidechain or a cloud. They're completely pointless. And this eth ETF sounds like MBS and CDOs all over again lol.


My thoughts exactly.


I strongly sense it’s the former (smokescreen), not the latter. 👁🧡


Bitcoin/lightning + nostr can probably do everything devs claim to be novel on Ethereum and other blockchains. If VCs stopped luring devs away from doing the hard stuff happening over here, maybe we could get some momentum and prove it sooner rather than later. But bitcoiners have low time preference and we build things to last, not just pump in the short term.


Onward 🫡


Eth is just one big Jedi mind trick.  It solves nothing, it's just a platform to scam people.  Proof of stake gtfooh


Yikes


Still wondering what problem ethereum solves except for putting money in Vitalik's sloppy pockets.


Imagjne writing all this ignoring Monero.

Bitwise is not wise. It is self interested. ETFs are a means of control. And you seek control like everybody else.

I seek freedom for me and for you. We are not the same.

That's why I support real money that will never see or need an ETF. Cash settled.

The crypto revolution is dead. Long live Monero.


Nope.


We get it, the fees are the fees and you're running a business

A lot of ETH tech isn't doing much, NFTs people were stuffing jpegs in bitcoin block space instead to a point where it was outtrading the native NFTs on ETH

EVM smart contracts? You can slap that on a side-chain like Rootstock if you wanted to run something or just build something client side that settles on-chain, most of those contracts are just about swapping tokens and generating ponzi yield

Most stablecoins are on TRON, so when tron ETF? lol


Sad.


The only real stable coin is on Tron, eth is extremely inefficient at the use cases it claims. It is now proof of stake and centralized.

But wont go away at least for a little why longer, too much lindy for scam creation.

nostr:note19nge7n5ugv5m59eqlt6u97glj247e0fnf8jfqk7f36cwy238lc5ssfl8xl


This is where I have failed countless times because my morals & principles got in the way.

Wouldn't change it though, I'm sticking to what I believe in.


Are you following RGB?


Solid 👍


Great points. There is no second best decentralized, non-government form of money


Well they are "completely different things".

Let me ask you this simple question.  Other than make more shitcoins as the mother asshole of shit coins and create tech to let shit coins be exchanged for other shit coins WHAT DOES ETH DO?

Give me a real world meaningful application in ACTION right now.   I pay for shit in BTC all the time, no one takes ETH.

It does "smart contracts"?  For WHAT?  Exchanging and leveraging shitcoins in the casino of exchange?

What does it actually DO?

Saying well nothing but it may do X some day, will prove my point.


And I will add, all the shit ETH devs talk about is theory no one does it.  There is no demand for it.  ETH is like BCH in some ways.  All the crap that SLP inside BCH was going to do, it never did and some of it like "microtipping" BTC IS DOING RIGHT NOW.

Saying a thing can do a thing when no one cares about the thing, means noTHING.   ETH has been around over a decade now of saying it can do all sorts of stuff.  But all it does is make shit coins and enable leveraging shit coins and exchanging them.


Might as well add Solana, avalanche and other shitcoins too?

Who cares if they're all pre-mined scams to make insiders rich while they stake and dilute holders, when you can make a buck off of it?


yeah this is disappointing and very unfortunate. ethrium is a joke, and to take a joke seriously just further legitimizes the nonsense. but profit motives are king i guess and it's your company so, enjoy


My 3-5 year prediction: lots of uneducated folks buy the shitcoin ETFs, but after a few years see they consistently trail BTC performance. NGU and Bitcoin swallows everything go from memes to mainstream investment theses. They sell, shitcoin ETFs death spiral, and BTC dominance solidifies even further.


ETH is more sound than Bitcoin is taken seriously by thousands of fringe entry participants


I can’t wait to see your Cumrocket, Dentacoin and other ETF products. I’m so glad you’re providing access to these “experiments” for consumers and this isn’t a morally bankrupt position entirely driven by greed and total disregard for consumers. /s


Scams are undeniably a thing


Onward 🫡


yes bitwise is launching an ethereum etf

i'm bitcoin first but not bitcoin only and if that's upsetting i'll take the heat. replies / dms open.

fwiw i think bitcoin and ethereum are completely different things. i know it can be super annoying when eth maxis are like "eth is even more sound than bitcoin!" but nobody takes that seriously. bitcoin is undeniably king as decentralized non-government money and that's not really up for debate

imo the question is around whether bitcoin wants to swallow the full range of public computing needs or leave room for the non core use cases (everything outside of sovereign money). i mean, stablecoins are undeniably a thing. non-custodial trading (uniswap) is also undeniably a thing.

i'm very happy that bitcoin hasn't morphed to make any of those things too easy on bitcoin. making stablecoins easier means making general token issuance easier. making non-custodial trading easier on bitcoin means more MEV risk on bitcoin. i'm happy that those experiments are playing out outside of bitcoin. maybe where i differ with many bitcoiners is that i am happy that those experiments are still happening.

anyways, happy to discuss this more. didn't want to seem like i'm hiding from this issue.


Read Softwar ⚡⚡


Those entry participants need to touch the stove and find out. I guess it’d be nice to shoehorn them correctly the first time but you’d have to handcuff all marketing and interfere with markets heavily. Free-er markets is the correct choice.


based


This is kinda where I'm at. Also a big difference between this and something like Casa, where their ETH product is actively taking away development time.


I had thought of Casa in comparison to Bitwise. Casa probably has to deal with Ethereum custody directly for their products, so I can see why it's turning into a huge burden for them. I remember that nostr:npub17u5dneh8qjp43ecfxr6u5e9sjamsmxyuekrg2nlxrrk6nj9rsyrqywt4tp has done a lot of work into Ethereum self custody and node running.

Bitwise would get someone like Coinbase to do that part for them, so it makes sense for them to wrap an ETF around it like they did with Bitcoin. Is this on the right track, nostr:npub1jpvsahpy0vgq7gu8nfqjkeskce0gwjk8jpss590xkvjh5xxe4epsruqgsz?


It’s all just paper anyway… OK I know you do PoR but the others don’t.

Blackrock printer goes ssssaaaaaattttttsssss


bitcoin could indeed swallow everything


not particularly a fan of drive chains and tx fees have been pretty high in recent months but i hear what you’re saying


centralization concerns are real but when etfs hold a small percentage of the supply (gold etfs hold 6% of all gold supply; for bitcoin so far it’s about 3-4%) i don’t know if the launch of eth etfs fundamentally change the dynamics that much


yes. we’d use a third party custodian (like coinbase as you suggested or fidelity/anchorage/bitgo/etc all support eth custody out of the box as well).


Gfy ❤


i agree that the scammers and hype men can be insufferable and eth ppl should do better. but it’s also the dynamics of what’s most visible on twitter. like if you just went by twitter you might think op_cat taproot wizards represent a big part of bitcoin culture


public as in public access rather than public cloud but i understand your point that non money use cases don’t need blockchains


that there was a premine (ico)


bitcoin’s focus is definitely a strength


US spot etfs require a mature regulated futures market. we don’t yet have cme futures for any of those things so basically not possible for the next 3 yrs at least


GO FUCK YOURSELF.


sorry not educated enough on rgb to have a view


yeah i do wonder why stablecoin issuers like tether haven’t used sidechains like liquid. do you have a view?


i agree bitcoin / LN + nostr can do a lot. don’t know if it can do everything and ethereum currently does nothing but i agree that the vc pump for vaporware stuff can be frustrating and damaging


Hope you're proud


What do you think about spiderchain that https://www.botanixlabs.xyz/ is developing?


Onward 🫡


And what about https://www.botanixlabs.xyz/?


Liquid tether available in nostr:npub1excellx58e497gan6fcsdnseujkjm7ym5yp3m4rp0ud4j8ss39js2pn72a 's nostr:npub1ajlrwgfj4yerhqf7ady03h7wmtk2qr3gs7h3sxcx83k05yld36sswpzx3q and #SideSwap.io too


Well the fact you couldn’t see that as a joke is concerning. Also yes I get it but the juxtaposition from btc is the best to I also like eth is pretty hard switch. If bitwise is just in it for the $ say it and be truthful about it don’t act like they have some holier objective just be honest


"ETH is actively taking away development time" 😂

Did you know that it's possible to hire more engineers and buy more development time?


If the ETH ETFs support staking, it will.


That handcuffing may come sooner than people expect…


Space is the place 🚀


I agree. ETH does very different things than BTC, and I'd rather those things stay in ETH. ETH is not money, and it's not trying to be money.


Wut


Just got it delivered this morning


yup they're different alright
=/