I’ve seen so many people say they won’t use Nostr because we don’t support delete. This is really frustrating, because Nostr DOES support delete, it’s right there in the NIP’s! We’ve got delete in nostr:npub1pu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqswtfch, but most apps don’t expose the functionality to users because they either don’t like the idea of delete or can’t be sure that something is 100% deleted. That misses the point, delete is as much about social signaling as it is about getting rid of the content.

Here’s my argument for how we should think about and support delete in nostr. In case your client doesn’t support long form content, here’s the njump link: https://njump.me/naddr1qq2ksje3g9trxujpxymyxjjlg5ckjmmrtguyxq3qpu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqxpqqqp65wk06e7u nostr:note1hldm4z430w76dn2ywzwjnafytnvyt7gsg6nhk3l8a3x8utzl88asl06u8m


Playing the devils advocate here for a min - but if the user cares so much for “feel-good deletion”, why not use a client that supports that and let other clients do as they please?

“You can delete on nos.social!” 😂


I like delete.


I like delete.
nostr:nevent1qqs0r45n9apjnu6m7x2xnkx0wrn8emtu04hhtuvsc3rnw97z7wf2jwqpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzypmvwx4w8fy378v7a3ruhgt7y2wd5sgn5zamde4wzamdwep798905qcyqqqqqqg79zth8


I've come around to this position. For a long time I was a delete purist, but I agree it's important to be able to delete. A term like "tombstone" captures the intention better I think, since it's possible to prove a person said something and also that they retracted it. Relays and clients should respect delete, but also communicate to users what the limits actually are.


ok then here is an idea maybe not deleted but hide allows someone on nostr to hide the message so no one on nostr can see it


😂 tombstone? And you thought my names were bad lol


So there’s a large group of people waiting to join #nostr so they can delete notes?


I didn't invent the name, it's been suggested before


Btw I’m in support of delete.


I’m with you on this. I deleted over 10k of my notes just to demonstrate that delete works pretty well here.


There is ALWAYS FREEDOM to change REVISE a VIEWPONT of published in subsequent note - (leaving aside typo errors)  but just like "word spoken out of mouth cannot retracted back"  short works the same way. no one can guarantee that someone didnot grab screenshot what u said/posted before in decentralized mesh. just somewhat wayback web machine archive old webpage.


me too


There is no such thing as “delete purism” unless the data only existed on your local drive.  And even then 🤔…

nostr:note134w9drtptqyl75q4mvz5fqf35jc7ak5f4v7379tnwuqvrr3rxx3swrpdyz


not a guaranteed service even if NIP is proposed n passed - nos.social will make it easier to attempt it.


There is the whole nostr delete service which anyone can use to request their own content be deleted: https://nostr-delete.vercel.app


have used it - it works fine if note is FRESH not propagated far away relays


If y’all support delete you aren’t allowed to call it the time chain.


Yeah really we should update the delete service to use the blastr relay: https://github.com/MutinyWallet/blastr


yeah that makes sense push faster


I’m a pretty strong believer in the right to be forgotten online from a privacy and safety pov.

The only argument I’ve heard to counter is that a delete function could put someone’s freedom of speech at risk, negating the point of nostr. I don’t really see how that’s possible though because the danger would mostly (in this case) come from relays censoring, not the individual, which is possible in the current state of things (I think).

If relays stop hosting your content to save money in the long term, won’t you be deleted eventually, as well?

Having a “request to delete” button is fine in most cases, even if people understand some relays may not comply. You are still lowering your digital footprint if a stalker gets out of control etc.


Implement the delete function. Not having it takes away, i would argue, an aspect of soverignty. Isn't this the crux of the matter? Shouldn't all clients have the function enabled?


Last year i made a quip on nostr that was in poor taste, I thought it was funny but it offended some people who I respect. So I apologized and deleted it, but I had to use blastr to get the delete event out there because my original note had been blasted out by other people. If I hadn’t been able to delete the original note then people would find it long after and they probably wouldn’t see the retraction or apology.


I’ve seen so many people say they won’t use Nostr because we don’t support delete. This is really frustrating, because Nostr DOES support delete, it’s right there in the NIP’s! We’ve got delete in nostr:npub1pu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqswtfch, but most apps don’t expose the functionality to users because they either don’t like the idea of delete or can’t be sure that something is 100% deleted. That misses the point, delete is as much about social signaling as it is about getting rid of the content.

Here’s my argument for how we should think about and support delete in nostr. In case your client doesn’t support long form content, here’s the njump link: https://njump.me/naddr1qq2ksje3g9trxujpxymyxjjlg5ckjmmrtguyxq3qpu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqxpqqqp65wk06e7u nostr:note1hldm4z430w76dn2ywzwjnafytnvyt7gsg6nhk3l8a3x8utzl88asl06u8m


rem that note lastyr - it can happen any human - think hypothetical example  Trump tweeting at midnight his fat finger slips LoL


Onward 🫡

Onward 🫡


Exactly


funny that you think you know about distributed systems and you never heard of tombstones


Yep! Glad nos has delete. Have used it at least 3 times


it's been around for a long time, apache cassandra is the first mention in this wikipedia article, circa 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_(data_store)


Rabble and co are doing a job in convincing me as well. I like the term retract.

Allow me to challenge.

A unique characteristic about nostr relative to twitter is that the note lives on in one or more relays, and local client databases.

So if a note has been published across various machines, and we are optimizing for user choice, should the nostr user on the receiving end of the note have the option of honoring (or not) deletion requests?


I use delete on Amethyst and Snort from time to time if I make a typo and it's only been a few seconds. I quickly delete and hope no one interacts with it before relays get the delete request. If not all clients and relays support delete then it's really hard to delete things.


This post convinced me. Even if the post doesnt really get deleted. I broadcasted my intention of doing so.

This makes sense.


:thumbs-up:


it is a core principle of signals intelligence that once the message goes over an untrusted channel it is likely captured

but that still doesn't stop people from respecting this anyhow

it's one of the benefits of a network protocol like LN, it isn't broadcast so the chances of a delete request being respected are higher at being successful on such a channel, the majority of channel rebalances are discarded after they are no longer able to be applied


It's not that we don't support delete, its that we support accountability.


i liked it when you CANT delete/edit notes it makes #nostr different than other social media


Silicon Valley Millennial flexible morality is strong with this one.


From: nostr:npub16vrkgd28wq6n0h77lqgu8h4fdu0eapxgyj0zqq6ngfvjf2vs3nuq5mp2va


Great post 👍

Great post 👍


Nostr has always supported delete. The clients you used just didn’t support it. You don’t have to delete anything if you dont want to.


ah ok we're the same as fedi


Maybe there should be a „regret“ button instead 😝


It‘s rather an update of the content, right? Replaceable with an excuse.


See my analogy to being "live on TV". Nostr is a decentralized broadcast network, you can't reliably delete things, no barrage of NIPs will change this.

nostr:note1uta8dt0xdt8hezpmh5lvm6nw4uh8qj42x9qtxnp3zd6xesefx2cqtt4nd4


Your ambitions to be a North Korean dictator are kind of cute but in the real world the user decides what choices they have.


I’ve seen so many people say they won’t use Nostr because we don’t support delete. This is really frustrating, because Nostr DOES support delete, it’s right there in the NIP’s! We’ve got delete in nostr:npub1pu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqswtfch, but most apps don’t expose the functionality to users because they either don’t like the idea of delete or can’t be sure that something is 100% deleted. That misses the point, delete is as much about social signaling as it is about getting rid of the content.

Here’s my argument for how we should think about and support delete in nostr. In case your client doesn’t support long form content, here’s the njump link: https://njump.me/naddr1qq2ksje3g9trxujpxymyxjjlg5ckjmmrtguyxq3qpu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqxpqqqp65wk06e7u nostr:note1hldm4z430w76dn2ywzwjnafytnvyt7gsg6nhk3l8a3x8utzl88asl06u8m


Copying my thoughts here from NIP669 on GitHub……..

I do agree it will need to be addressed. Until it is available, some people will just not understand or want to use Nostr. Perhaps that is _ok_ but I do believe that Nostr will be better with a more diverse user base and supporting deletions or edits isn't sinking to the lowest common denominator. I believe it would be valualeble for everyone.

I agree with your thoughts, and think they are better than these other ideas I present as well but I did want to share some more options.

**Expiration Option on Notes**
It could perhaps be possible to have an option of notes having an expiration time.
This wouldn’t necessarily allow for deletion but if someone is generally more interested in removing their discourse history than preserving it they could choose to post a note for only 1 Month etc. All relays would know upfront of when it will be deleted or it just wouldn’t have it.

In the future, it could be implemented that you could remove the expiration of a note if you found it was important to keep up. The downside is perhaps a relay wouldn’t get the memo to not delete but at least most relays would.

In this scenario, there is nothing stopping someone from setting up a bot to scrape and save all notes with an expiration time so they can effectively nullify the expiration in the public’s view but this issue is also possible on any other social media platform with public profiles.

**Un-Post a Note**
The issue I see with this is it is ultimately up to the relay and/or operator to respect the request to delete or tombstone. An operator could always modify the relay to not follow protocol. I have this other idea, which may be flawed but perhaps viable. What if nostr didn't actually purge the data and instead returned the event along with the additional tombstone classification? A user could “un-post” a note (not delete). This would then be interpreted by clients and presented to the user as something like _“Un-posted note is struck from record at request of poster. For posterity, click to reveal original note._”


I kinda like the idea of deleting tbh.

But the other side of the argument is: in your case there is the argument that you could have just replied to your own post with the apology, making it a thread. People would be able to see the "offense" as well as the apology and judge for themselves if it is warranted or not.

Where if you had deleted it, people who didn't see the original would only see your apology and have to take your word instead of judging for themselves.

But again, I see how prospect users can be turned off by it.


I am sympathetic to deleting notes, but personally I'd much prefer a way to Edit them. That is only available for the first 15 min or so, and where edits are public.

90% of the notes that I wanted to delete were bc of typos or bc I forgot to say something. Somehow my IQ increases right after I press the post button and I spot a bunch of errors that I didn't when proof reading the post...


I think that’s what occurs, nostr:npub1wmr34t36fy03m8hvgl96zl3znndyzyaqhwmwdtshwmtkg03fetaqhjg240 correct me if I’m wrong. nostr:npub1zafcms4xya5ap9zr7xxr0jlrtrattwlesytn2s42030lzu0dwlzqpd26k5 I’ve used the delete feature on nostr:npub1pu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqswtfch and it’s worded in such a way that the relay owners are being asked to delete the note. Based on the current wording, it doesn’t sound like nos is promising (nor would
It make sense that they could promise) the relays will actually delete it.

To that end though, I think it’d be cool if there were a way to let the requestor know which relays didn’t choose to delete as requested. It would help the requestor determine if they want to continue to use that relay or not; keenly if it’s one they pay into.


Yes, if you assume clients don’t store notes long term, then it comes down to relay choice.


What do you think nostr:npub1wmr34t36fy03m8hvgl96zl3znndyzyaqhwmwdtshwmtkg03fetaqhjg240

https://github.com/damus-io/damus/issues/14#issuecomment-1934529926


This resonates


I added a comment


Onward 🫡

Onward 🫡


while I think deleting should  be possible on any client, I don't think those people would use Nostr if it were so. They'll find something else


Deleted
nostr:nevent1qqs0r45n9apjnu6m7x2xnkx0wrn8emtu04hhtuvsc3rnw97z7wf2jwqprpmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctvqgs8d3c64cayj8canmky0jap0c3fekjpzwsthdhx4cthd4my8c5u47srqsqqqqqp7q4vr6


Zap attack

Zap attack


This should be done by issuing a new note which says it is a new revision of the previous one. Clients can then make the link and show the most recent version (as well as potentially the old one or what changed).


Yes, that does seem like the way to go. But on the user's side, the workflow should be intuitive and quick


> "I've seen so many people say they won't use Nostr because we don't support delete. This is really frustrating, because Nostr DOES support delete, it's right there in the NIP's!"
>
> — [rabble](nostr:npub1wmr34t36fy03m8hvgl96zl3znndyzyaqhwmwdtshwmtkg03fetaqhjg240)

A few days back, rabble posted a note and a blog post discussing the misconceptions about Nostr's inability to delete notes and his perception on how the issue should be approached.

You can read the blog post [here](nostr:naddr1qq2ksje3g9trxujpxymyxjjlg5ckjmmrtguyxqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcqgkwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucnpdejqz8rhwden5te0dehhxarj95crztnev94kj6r0dehx2tnrdaksygq0ytqxatqsqf5yalxx3atg2s8gxsk3vzw4pz7dgvfvqw8xr98ckcpsgqqqw4rstvd04e).

His thoughts prompted me to share my own thoughts on deleting stuff on the Internet in general and Nostr in particular. My note got some attention (lots by my meager standards 😆), reposts and comments so I thought it would be good to expand a bit more in this week's newsletter. *Make sure to check out my original note below and the responses. There were very good points made to support also the need to delete notes.*

---
## The good old Internet

Before MySpace, Twitter, Facebook and the rest of the social media behemoths came around, the Internet was made of a bunch of decentralized services like IRC servers. You would connect to a server, chat with people, exchange files and know that once you post something, it's out there and completely out of your control.

The Internet is just amplifying the reach of your speech. You can't delete what is posted just like you can't unspeak what you have spoken.

> Posting something on the Internet is like peeing in the swimming pool. Once it's out, you can't take it back.
>
> — Old piece of wisdom passed over to me in the early years of the Internet

![](https://i.nostr.build/R09M.jpg)

I took this advice to heart. And I drill it into my kids every day: **don't share with anyone anything that you wouldn't want splashed on all the high school screens**.

## My approach to deleting Tweets, notes, and other stuff
I don't understand the fear of not being able to delete notes.

Yes, now there is a permanent record of what you say and everyone can see it. It is the price, and the beauty, of having the Internet megaphone.

So use it wisely. Think twice before you post.

The inability to delete has the potential to make the Internet a better place. To get rid of all the bullshit that goes around elsewhere in centralized apps.

Sure it would had been nice to be able to edit tweets to correct misspellings but I believe that an Internet where you can't delete stuff is a better Internet.

I remember one time when I felt for a prank from an Ethereum Twitter user. He, and his followers, roasted me for days, reposting my tweet and having a blast at my expense. I was tempted to delete my tweet but I felt that that would had been an act of cowardice. Better to own my mistake and use all the scorn directed at me to learn the lesson.

## But what if I change my mind?

*But what if I change my mind and I don't agree any more with something I posted 5 years ago?*

Congratulations! You have grown! You have learned new things and now you have new perspectives on life and stuff.

> I pity those who agree with everything they have written on the Internet in the last 20 years.

Change is natural. Change is good. Your past posts are proof of your growth. Why would you want to delete them?

If sharing the fact that you have changed your mind scares you, if you'd rather delete an old post that admit that you were wrong, maybe you should take a deeper look within yourself.

And let me be clear, people who go back through your posts to find something damning that you said 5 or 10 years ago are at the very least stupid and most likely evil, driven by an ill will towards you. They are the problem, not your thoughts from 10 years ago.

## Deleting in Nostr

Like rabble says, you can mark a note as deleted. Some clients and relays may honor the request, some may not. You never know. Rabble's take is that by marking something for deletion you're signaling that you have grown, that you have changed your mind and that that note does not accurately capture your thoughts on the subject any longer.

I respectfully disagree. I think that posting a new note with your new thoughts is a better approach. You can even quote the old note to make sure that everyone knows what you're talking about. Because, for all purposes, you don't know if the note will ever be deleted anyway.

For me, the existence of the old note in conjunction with the new note signifies growth and that is what matters the most.

**Full disclosure**: when I decided to stop tweeting and focus on Nostr, I left the Twitter account inactive with the content still up. But after Twitter started requesting biometrics I realized that it was time to close the account and that had the effect of deleting everything: good (the few) and bad (the many) tweets alike.

---
# Notable notes

nostr:note178tfxt6r98e4huv5d8vv7u8x0nkhclt0whcep3z8xutu9uuj4yuqf7syk6

nostr:note10558a40e25t42n7a94cwg68t4y4w0g44z240lqvqfkg6ddlfsr8sw5wudn

nostr:note1emj5lzys3vuenjvmdjtqmzlp90znq08w2f57p2t7xakm2t0rssfql2qhr9

---
# Recommendations
## rabble

rabble has been working on censorship resistant social media for years. He was working on Planetary and scuttlebutt before switching to building on Nostr.

You can follow him [here](nostr:npub1wmr34t36fy03m8hvgl96zl3znndyzyaqhwmwdtshwmtkg03fetaqhjg240)

---

## What did you think of today's newsletter?
Your feedback helps me create the best newsletter possible for you.

Please leave a comment and checkout comments from other subscribers and readers.  I love hearing from the Bitcoin For Families community ❤ 🙏🏻

---
See you again next week!
— Alejandro

This newsletter is for educational purposes. It does not represent financial advice. Do your own research before buying Bitcoin.

The fear of not being able to delete notes

I don't understand the fear of not being able to delete notes. The Internet is just amplifying the reach of your speech. You can't delete what is posted just like you can't unspeak what you have spoken.

This is a long form article, you can read it in https://habla.news/a/naddr1qq48g6r994nx2ctj94hkvttwda6z6cn9d9hxwttpvfkx2tt5dukkgetvv46x2ttwda6x2uczyryd76hgsmr3rv8g0t0jfksps86ss8etv5axrg3mzp26xcpz9yaqvqcyqqq823cv829ex


Delete works fine. If a relay doesn't respect it, eventually it would become an unpopular relay. If people think/thought there weren't copies of their deleted tweets somewhere, they were kidding themselves