Running a Lightning node is still a pain in the ass and most of the world will not run a Lightning node because of this.


Because of the inbound and outbound balances?


Liquidity management is just one tiny piece of the puzzle. Technical hurdles when problems arise will turn most people off.


Indeed.

I just came back to it after reading all nostr:npub1lxktpvp5cnq3wl5ctu2x88e30mc0ahh8v47qvzc5dmneqqjrzlkqpm5xlc guides I could find. I even surprised myself! Ended up with a nice little LND node to self-host my nostr:npub1getal6ykt05fsz5nqu4uld09nfj3y3qxmv8crys4aeut53unfvlqr80nfm

Also setup a Core Lightning node to generate a Bolt-12 offer and see how that works.

Love improving skills!


What kind of other problems are we talking here?


I disagree: not a pain in the ass but seond part yes.


For example. I had issues with my node this morning. This is my fourth year doing this. I've been using the command line for thirty years. No biggie. 90% of the world won't know how to go in and read log files and realize that their TOR circuit is boned, delete the state file, and then restart everything.


I’ve no experience in coding whatsoever. I’m glad my node isn’t acting strangely. I wouldn’t know what to do 😅


it will probably happen. i've had a few issues over the years. nothing major though. all can eventually be resolved. good luck brother!


how many of your family members run their own lightning nodes?


Well tbh, I don’t use my lightning node too much actually. But if it would act up, I wouldn’t really know what to do. Specially on Umbrel, no clue how to edit stuff over there


None, besides me. But they could within a day. Not on command line level but on UI Umbrel level.


Umbrel is easy to setup, but I've known many people over the years that have used Umbrel and then turned to me when issues arise. If they didn't have someone to help them, they may not have gotten their funds back. Most people will not have someone in their wheelhouse to help them. I ran Umbrel for 2.5 years. It's a solid platform, it's just not for the non-technical.


You either have a server running Debian and manually configure everything, or you don’t run a node. It’s that simple.

If you can’t do that then you will lose funds


That's why there's a technical member in every family to help the UI members 😃


Should everyone run a LN node?


that would be amazing, but in reality it's not going to happen, imo.


Not everyone needs to.


It's like saying everyone should run an email server, won't happen. But on LN if there are too few fees go high and it's an incentive to build more nodes, but it will be a thing for experts IMO.


But maybe one day after solving the DNS nightmare or tor becomes faster, there will be some small server with reliable hardware and software that grandmas will be able to use, just like using a phone. Connecting everything via web interface and qr codes.


Growing TOR is probably more of an issue than growing Lightning, IMO.


We need non-exit relay apps inside umbrel and start9


Right. Running the node isn't the issue. We have that point and click easy now with a pretty GUI. It's the troubleshooting and management of issues that will arise that seem to be the real problem. Every single time I have one and fix it I say to myself that there's no way anyone I know would've able to do this. Maybe issues will become less common as software matures.


- AlbyHub
- phoenixd
- Lite node, ala Valet/Standard_Sats

Doesn't get easier that that. BUT -yes, the majority still won't do it..


Looking at the full blockchain size, only the chosen ones will be able to store it.


You're absolutely right. I ran 5 different nodes. (Up to 6.5 BTC routing node) Lost millions of satoshis in each. Even in the Alby Hub node I lost 880k due to a bug. Fortunately Alby offered me to pay me 50% of the money back without asking them  Great people. But anyway. Running Alby Hub on Start9 again. But the normal people won't run lightning nodes. Only freaks like us.


Running a Lightning node is still a pain in the ass and most of the world will not run a Lightning node because of this.


:Clap:


This is why I’m so excited to about ecash.

Yes, the trust trade off is huge and should not be understated. However, it does help with the shortcomings of LN.


Probably so. Worst case, folks gravitate mainly to custodial wallets like Strike or WoS. Best case (my hope) people use wallets like Blitz or Aqua that abstract away the technicalities of using lightning, liquid or ecash.  Imo owning your own UTXO will one day become a sign of immense wealth and privilege.


Thank you Derek. All set now. 😊


Running a Lightning node can be complex for many, but products and tools like JoyID are helping bridge the gap.


I am convinced people run nodes, and see how much easier it now already got.
backup is still the hard part but we will also solve this.
what is the main issue that you think people will not run a node and take control over their funds?


Most people don’t want to learn or even think about channel management. They just want to press a button and receive money without dealing with liquidity.


which is fine, isn’t it?
it gets easier, thus the barrier of entry gets lower. and I am convinced more people understand the benefits.
it will always be a bit more complicated than giving up everything and put others in control, but more people also understand the benefit of not doing that.

I also think that lightning node OGs are a bit burnt, because of the early experience of running a node was so much more complicated.

I like the comparison:
if you asked early pilots who embarked on the adventure to fly across the ocean they would have that it will never be possible for an average person to cross the atlantic on a plane… and here we are.


You’re right about OG node runners. Things are much better now. But I still think there’s a long way to go. Most people don’t even understand the difference between bitcoin an crypto, let alone know about Lightning, ecash. (BTW, Alby should support ecash.)


Main reason to run a node is to keep the network decentralized.

For the first 20 years that is to ensure a relatively fair emission -- which 99.9% of other coins dont have.  This makes bitcoin open rather than proprietary.

The second reason is to keep the network secure.  Dev in bitcoin is very good, but it is not bullet-proof and had to be fought for.  There have been multiple civil wars already, won by the users.  The power of a UASF can be used for good or for bad.  I believe alby users will be a force for good, because bumi has always defended users and bitcoin.

We will face another group that tries to for bitcoin.  Either a soft fork (OP_CODEs) a hostile miner fork (drivechainers) or a hard fork.  Some forks are good (e.g. consensus cleanup), some are bad (e.g. drivechains).  All forks are bad because they risk a chain split.  And a chain split could be terminal to both splits, and damage investors that put their trust in bitcoin.  We will need to fight and win 1-2 more battles like this before bitcoin becomes a long-term asset, which I think everyone wants.  Alby hub and its culture may be what tips the balance.

The other stuff including lightning is a "nice to have", but more for hobbyists right now.  Glad it's getting easier over time, tho.


Depends. Personal spending node? Pretty much braindead easy.

Routing node?
It is still a pain the ass. You can certainly make it profitable - until you get absolutely wrecked by FCs and other bugs.
I had mine dialed in and routing lots of volume, generating decent profit, at the cost of more or less daily monitoring and channel management. It's a part time job.

Then the november/december fee spikes happened and FCs around that time cost me around a million sats.


>Main reason to run a node is to keep the network decentralized.

No... the main reason to run a node is to validate your own transactions privately.

Plebs of little to no economic relevance have practically no impact on the outcome of forks or Bitcoin's "decentralization".

Run a node for your own benefit, or don't, but let's not pretend doing so is an altruistic act.


UASF also acts as a powerful signal.  It was critical in the past.


UASF worked because economically significant actors rallied behind it.

The larp of every user running a node just for the sake of defending the network is just that... a larp


Most of the world does not need to run a Lightning node.

In fact, that would probably be detrimental to Lightning altogether.


I agree so much with this.  There is alot of LARP.  But nevertheless users and UASF offer a counter balance to those trying to fork bitcoin, another layer to the game theory.  Would you not agree with this.


yes, it’s a long way… a marathon not a sprit. but we’re all on that one and not in it for the quick win.

how should alby support ecash?

It has a similar problem as one is not in control over the sats and mints at a certain scale will have issues. (which is my main worry)


Wait a second.  The economically significant actors backed segwit2x.


No they didn't. VC-backed companies are not the economically significant actors within the Bitcoin community.

Actual skin in the game Bitcoin holders wanted nothing to do with the fork, as evidenced, for example, by Finex's futures market at the time.


It's a good point and we've probably covered enough for one day, because I'd like to keep the discussion going and for it not to turn adversarial.  But the miners were significant actors, too.  Both VC backed and Chinese.  Had they teamed with roger they would have got the longest chain, with slush pool mining the minority chain with about 5% hash.  That would have lead to a 1/4 ing of the hash.  And the other chain races ahead, btc becomes a chew tow for the miners with famine and feast or chain death.  Dont get me wrong the futures market played a big role.  Though it was not even fully understood at first.  But there were multiple prongs to the defense strategy.  Ends.


Bitcoin is the longest *valid* chain as determined by economic consensus.

What miners decide to do is irrelevant 😉


To be continued ... ;)


Every human running a Lightning node would be an incredible amount of UTXOs and Bitcoin probably can't handle that, but that doesn't mean that many homes couldn't run a node for their families or we couldn't have community nodes/banks for people. It's still too complicated for most. We're getting there though.


I don’t think it’s productive or desirable for the average person to run a Lightning node.

In fact I’m convinced it’s economically unsustainable.