I don't understand bitcoiners unhappy with immigrants. Isn't that what we want, a free world, free markets, free movement of people?

"Ahh but they come to my country and accept to work for lower wages, they loot our jobs."

Don't worry, if there are people willing to work for less, that's the free market. Specialize more to justify a higher salary.

"The state is corrupt but please defend us from the free market and don't allow immigrants, protect our industry." 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

What is your opinion?
#nostr #asknostr


If it's an organic imigration that they come with their money, buy private property and live on their money it's totally fine. What's wrong it the state paying those people, creating a bad incentive to less skill people to do it. People that won't adapt economically culturally, and very likely rob, rape and etc.


I don't see many people upset about those who show up to work and make a run at value for value. That is a strawman psyop.

I think the main, and valid, gripe lies with the welfare state. It's bad enough that the state subsidizes unproductive and even counterproductive behavior in the existing population. They then encourage more people to come in to grow that system. All to print more money, and gain more control.

If government official castigate you for even questioning things like "immigration", that's where you need to dig.


Spot on.

Borderless money must yield a borderless world.

If you like national borders, nationally issued fiat money might be best for you.


I find it funny how the word "rape" always comes up in this subject.

However, I agree with you, but in the case of the state subsidizing this situation, it is more about common welfare socialism 🤡🤡


I agree with you on the "welfare state" but there is a lot of nationalist sentiment, yes, I feel that.


1. It is not about migration into the country, it is about migration into welfare.
2. Every society has the right to decide who should be part of it, as long societies are founded freely and without external force.


I agree on point 1.

About 2...
You have the right to decide who is part of your family, not your society, I think.


Because rape is a feature of the African cultures, and using the word immigration for what's happening in Europe is wrong. It's an invasion.


Borderless world - yes. But my farm is always gonna have borders, and I will always shoot the trespassers. If my farm borders with the neighbour, and he also has borders, well there will be a larger piece of bordered land. But there will also be inused land and roads. Those wull be free to anyone.
But we cannot flip to that end state right now. We need an orderly transition. Individuals need to learn to protect themselves, the wrong incentives must be removed. And while we are getting there, we do not want idiots, thugs, and anybody unverified being scattered randomly all over our farms.


Private property should be sovereign 👊


Sure there is, but I hope less so among bitcoiners.


That's crazy, is rape cultural in Africa? I would like an African opinion. #asknostr


Well said


A huge portion of bitcoiners are closeted statists and forgetful that they too are descendants of immigrants.

But they don't mind immigrants when they are serving coffee and delivering UberEATS. They just don't wanna see too much brown skin in their own neighborhoods.

Complain about welfare states after spending trillions to bomb Muslims for 20 years, amazing


Sweden imported the 3rd world and is now the rape capital of Europe.


Not only that, but much more collective values, they never had the gold standard for example in most countries. Many tribes abuse and kill those who dare to criticise authority. They treat women much worse than in Europe, in some places they cut their clitoris ....the list goes on forever. There are superior and inferior cultures, the sad part is that Europe is committing suicide in that regard.


What a coincidence


Perfect 🎯


Um, you can be pro immigration, respectful of all skin colors AND be concerned with getting so many immigrants at once that it’s a strain on public resources. Until the funds that pay for asylum seekers are voluntarily, I’m for closed borders. Taxpayers just want your best (H1Bs were pretty brown last time I checked).


Fuck public resources, they should get strained and collapse so private markets can fix them.


So the third world is a world of rapists? Sweden also has good characteristics, ahh of course this part comes only from the purist Swedish side, I assume.


Welfare and bombing the Muslims countries are both wrong as well as the existance of the state. But without the state how would immigration look like? It would be organic, voluntary and natural.


No, those that absorbed better values, mainly from Christianity and Greek philosophy have a much better society. For example mexico with all its problems is better than the mayas and Aztecs that were practising human sacrifice. As well as other primitive societies of the Americas are even cannibals.


Fuck public resources.


Gotta say... This is why I like #Nostr more than any other social media platform.
Not sure if it's because there's few of us in here, thinking alike or what...
But I feel I like what I see and read here...
It provides a peace of mind thinking and feeling not everyone is some crazy extremist 😊

nostr:note13njq5xvr0qj4d6wl334ns0y0czv4vusnmt80wwmqe3389rh2cnnspvyxu6


Ah, an accelerationist! But look what resulted after the Soviet Union collapsed. I guess that was pre internet and pre bitcoin, and much more brutally and psychological damage on the populace. We need to get freedom tech / ideas into more hands before the collapse, no?


Private property will always have borders.


I find it very sad that you generalize rape as a third world culture, perhaps you should review this point a little. 😢


I don't understand bitcoiners unhappy with immigrants. Isn't that what we want, a free world, free markets, free movement of people?

"Ahh but they come to my country and accept to work for lower wages, they loot our jobs."

Don't worry, if there are people willing to work for less, that's the free market. Specialize more to justify a higher salary.

"The state is corrupt but please defend us from the free market and don't allow immigrants, protect our industry." 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

What is your opinion?
#nostr #asknostr


Private property, again... Private property.


I didn't wrote it as a third world, but an African one. For example south america that received European(with all its problems) values is not like that.


And acts if war.

🦇


It's also sad. Now only European values are superior? lol


Always has been


Most of them yes, what's sad is the Europeans abandoned their own values, and here're the consequences.


Immigration is great until it isnt. Use Canada as an example.


It's pretty simple and my dude nostr:npub1utx00neqgqln72j22kej3ux7803c2k986henvvha4thuwfkper4s7r50e8 hit the nail on the head. But I'll also add that many people say one thing, but when it boils down to it, they do or feel the other way. You can't have it both ways, I less you want to be a hypocrite.

i.e. I want free speech, but only if it's the speech I agree with.

And I do sometimes get it. It's hard to go against your upbringing or your religion, your identity. However, if you're truly a libertarian and just want to be left alone to do your own thing, then others should be left alone to do their own thing too. Non stop bitching about it isn't the way to go either. Be better. Be unhappy, state your opinion, the move on.


The State steals from citizens to give immigrants free money/benefits in exchange for regime loyalty and votes. Immigration and punctuated mass migration are different.


If you were a nerd in a tribe in Australia, Africa or in the Americas you had no chance or surviving, because asking the wrong questions and questioning authority meant death. In Europe it wasn't much better, maybe 1% chance of free speech instead of 0%, then it allowed those people with more intelligence to improve society a lot. Then it was no accident that they became much more powerful, civilised and healthier that they even exterminated many of those tribes only with a flu.


"Ahh but they come to my country and accept to work for lower wages, they loot our jobs."

What if your country purposely brings them in to keep wages down? Using them as slaves to work a job a Canadian would refuse. Welcome to Canadian problems. It's not just accepting lower wages. It's accepting slave labour and calling ourselves progressive. Look at my post history about our diploma mills in Canada. We exploit immigrants here.


When have you had any say regarding the immigration policy of your nation?


The state steals from you to bailout banks, fund their war machine all around the world and hire 87,000 agents to spy on your venmo account.

Then psyops you into thinking it's immigrants fault, don't fall for it anon


Your missing Hoppe's arguments in that regard.


Bitcoin is financial self-defense. Defending property and culture can also be desirable.


Maybe you don't own your culture.


Immigration processes (like most government processes) are terrible and slow by design. If service is poor and wait times are high, they can get a bigger budget and hire more bureaucrats. An endless cycle.
My humble answer, fire all the bureaucrats and privatize the process. Pay private companies a set amount for each case they handle, and have clawbacks if they admit anyone they should not have or who ends up committing a crime.


I didn’t. The State itself is behind the mass migration, as implied by the incentives I laid out. Show me where I denied the problems in your first paragraph or said they’re entirely the fault of immigrants. There can be multiple problems at once, all caused by the State.


Mass immigration is just another government program, and everything the state touches it turns it into a cancer in no time. (money, education, health etc)

What is happening today is not healthy anymore, it is about depleting poor countries of their most valuable resources, their young productive people, thus making those already poor countries even more dependent. It is another excuse for printing more money (8M£ daily in the UK!). It is a heavy and unsustainable burdens on the infrastructures of the welcoming country.

Yes to immigration, no to government controlled mass immigration.


Yes to government migration


I don't understand bitcoiners unhappy with immigrants. Isn't that what we want, a free world, free markets, free movement of people?

"Ahh but they come to my country and accept to work for lower wages, they loot our jobs."

Don't worry, if there are people willing to work for less, that's the free market. Specialize more to justify a higher salary.

"The state is corrupt but please defend us from the free market and don't allow immigrants, protect our industry." 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

What is your opinion?
#nostr #asknostr


100%
when we can't handle it and shit hits the fan, I don't want to have to turn guns on people. Is it ok to say we don't want a disaster?

Also want the dollar to die and Bitcoin to win but don't want it to happen so rapidly that it causes massive suffering.


Would you tell that to Israel? How many Syrian refugees should they be letting in? Should they have an open border?


They should be able to work or start their own businesses with low barriers to entry like we all should, I should be able to hire them and pay them an agreed upon wage. Free market. Taxation is theft. Where I am the city arrests migrants that try and work or offer services without a state license then spend tax payer money to house and feed them. Many of them don’t want a hand out.


Communism still is a (maybe even the most) likely outcome of collapse. Many subcultures want the destruction but only one can seed the future. Those who focus on fighting against a system that cannot be saved will loose unless they are ahead of the other subcultures.


I'm an immigrant in the UK who moved here from Africa. I am 100% against illegal immigration.

It's the people who illegally enter a country, contribute nothing, get everything for free and then still have the gall to complain about anything that I have a problem with.

The disingenuous part of the argument is conflating legal with illegal immigrants like they are the same thing. Illegal immigrants are a net negative to a country.


I am all for immigration.  The more the better.  But legal and sustainable immigration is better for the country and safer for those immigrating.  Deaths from the journey and the resultant slave trade from illegal immigration would be much more reduced.  If those charged with administering the law’s actually followed them (on immigration or otherwise), it would set a good example for those domiciled and those immigrating.

The government doesn’t have many core functions but safety is one of them.


You're right. US Immigration process is one of the worst regulatory capture cases in the world.

They have no stated goals, and no defined metrics to measure how good they are doing their job; and if course, no responsibility for doing it poorly.

One hand is playing a literal lottery with human lives while the other is essentially doing the same, just in a super slow process with millions of costly duplicit steps, years long waiting times, all designed just to max the immigration attorney business.

The worst part of the design in my experience is the unpredictability. You enter the process, not knowing how long it would take and what would be the outcome (high variability in both for most cases). It's a tremendous waste of human capital.

It would be so easy just to setup 2 OKR metrics to be tracked for every immigrant who gets in, and outsource it to a couple of competing companies (even DVMs)
- A) minimize delinquencies
- B) maximize wealth creation (jobs and taxes)


I get your point, but the state is the one who says whether a person is a legal or illegal immigrant, right? And in my opinion the state is a shitcoin.


There’s more nuance. The Austrian economists believe in open borders and private land ownership. That means all land would be owned privately so there isn’t ever really an open border. In this world you can’t just cross my land permissionlessly or use the highway to go to your destination. Since land is not privately owned today, people have to follow this bs democratic process to determine how the land is used. Since taxpayers are financially responsible for maintenance of the land, it is understandable why they’d be upset that immigrants benefit from land they don’t own or pay for.


Been watching this thread develop from the start. Very interesting I thought to myself, it will be interesting to see what shows up on early Nostr but it went the usual predicted way. Your first paragraph is what its all about right? Heres a little read with a few historic facts- You'll enjoy it I'm sure


https://newint.org/features/1991/09/05/simply/
Forgot the link sorry. Duh- big build up ruined 🙃


I really thought there should be a link 🤣🤣


One of those days, weeks, months, years...😉🤣


In a perfect world, I want to move freely.


Nations aren't private property. I mentioned national borders, not property lines.


The venn diagram of anarcho-capitalist Libertarians and cultural nationalists has a lot more overlap than some people care to admit.


If we didn't have socialism infecting the planet & one group of corrupt people looking to loot the wealth from another group, and giving that wealth to those who didn't earn it, then yes, immigration would be fine. Come on over and compete.


I recently red "Free private city", it gives a big ints regarding pros and cons of immigration.

I'm almost pro but big cultural differencies can bring big problems. If we do know how to live with other people and respect them, integration can be really hard, almost impossible


True 🤙


I think that would be accelerationist in the statist direction. Thats like encouraging people to burn down cities and steal from stores, and saying we will get less government as a result; no, I think that just gives the government the political influence to expand its power. Mass immigration is a plot to destabalize society, as things get worse it justifies authoritarian measures, but those authoritarian measures will only really be used to remove intellectual critics of the state.

Where does the free market come in to fix anything when the government holds the monopoly on violence? If they want to destabalize society then they would shut down any attempt at private law enforcement.


I mostly dont like when the city i was born in is turning into a third world shithole because thats what we have been importing for a few decades. Its to the point its no longer safe, i cant think to raise my kids there and ive since moved. And its not the locals who are causing this.


I don't have a problem with immigrants, but I do have a problem with an unprotected border for what should be obvious reasons.


Demographics are THE long-term indicator

Most of the west is in a population decline or at best, flat equilibrium. So population growth only comes in those places via immigration .. and the covid years quickly emphasised that.

In times of rising tension and uncertainty, birthrates fall .. go look back at birth rates in the periods leading up to world wars .. and conversely the boom in birthrates AFTER those events .. hello Boomers

The entire credit-based financial system however requires ongoing "growth". Cycles are normal .. which means so is contraction .. and that's what drives the synergy between underlying societal tension, declining birthrates and credit collapses

So sure - people should be able to travel and work freely - I'm damn sure I want to be able to and ain't nothing special or unique about me


That's the same statist nonsense Americans have been saying for over a hundred of years.

Here is some anti Irish immigration propaganda from early 1900s, just swap Irish for whatever you don't like currently. Did the Irish destabilize America?

Blaming immigrants is so classic and low IQ, come up with something original at least.

Btw last I checked, the people burning down cities and looting stores are American citizens. You don't need mass immigration for that.

https://image.nostr.build/46e8c5d6972dca415b55f5683adc4b1733169f1859bdc817933c74b9755eecc8.jpg


If the rest of national policy actually allowed a free market, I don't think you'd hear nearly as much complaining (or it would be complaints from different people).


"Blaming immigrants" isnt something im interested in, I just stuck my neck out recently to get an immigrant from ghana the job he dreamed of, I catch a cup of coffee with security guards from somalia and south africa nightly, I shoot the shit with DCOs from pakistan, afghanistan, and iraq when the nights going slow, I turn over with a dayshift from mexico. Dont assume my intentions.

You are glossing over the social effects of dumping masses of immigrants in concentrated areas with no regard for the people living there; its the difference between you inviting someone to stay at your home with the promise that they are getting a job and will pay your generosity back and be self sufficient, and me dropping a van full of homeless people in your living room and saying "dont worry, the free market will figure it out".

The "free market" would necessarily imply property rights are being respected, which they arent at the level of public property existing, and they arent at the level of public property not being maintained in line with how you would treat your own private property. The mass migrations are in fact an act of aggression, because the property rights (at the latter level) of citizens are being violated the same way as if I violated your home. You wouldnt invite these people onto your property so how is it ok to invite them to public property?


"Public property" is being ravaged by "authorities", isn't it?
Who gave those "authorities" the right to do such things? Based on what grounds?
Therein lies the problem.


if they are willing to work for less its because they would starve otherwise.
the free market is free for the oligarchs to exploit workers and generate profit the actual producers of commodities left withot a say.  Modern day slavery.  These are the fundamentals of how capitalism works.   We have democracy everywhere except for the workplace, where its the most important.


if the workplaced functioned like nostr, then we would actually have democracy.


Nothing against immigrants. Free markets is indeed the key.

BUT I will speak according to rules in Belgium 🇧🇪. Immigrants come in and governments grant them social benefits, healthcare, free or cheap housing, free or cheap energy and water, a base income. And all of that without working a single day.

Meanwhile there are citizens who worked 40 years, got sick and can’t work anymore and they don’t get those benefits.

I can understand why citizens turn against immigrants. Surely if a big part of them are social benefit seeking men who don’t want to work, learn our language, accept and follow our culture and moral rules,…

Again I’m not against those people who want to create a better world for the rest of us and want to work. The system in our country is just so rigged in favor of not working immigrants that it’s pretty logical we’re social benefits heaven for the advantage takers.


Of course, and I return to the existance of public property being the first crime, because its onlu possible with the theft of private property.


Yes, I think we can agree that the problem lies with the State and all these social benefits. Europe must be the most communist continent we have.


nostr:npub1um8xz4pjtd2wd8y50rzxeufgfcyn77gwvk9k5u8emahw6f67x3zqmnzp4e most of the current migration is rooted in and facilitated by states. the majority of migrants wouldn't leave their home if there wasn't some force which made fixing their countries nearly impossible.


I fully agree, but the world is dripping with socialism. Immigration and socialism don't mix very well since the immigrants always move to the countries that offer socialism systems at the local taxpayer's expense.

If the US would stop offering social programs to everyone I'd say let's just remove the border walls completely and catch immigrants who commit crimes like drug smuggling instead of whatever it is we're doing now.