Did Bitcoin mining change forever yesterday 🤔

Hey nostr:npub1zmc6qyqdfnllhnzzxr5wpepfpnzcf8q6m3jdveflmgruqvd3qa9sjv7f60 l, @npub1lh273a4wpkup00stw8dzqjvvrqrfdrv2v3v4t8pynuezlfe5vjnsnaa9nk, and @npub1wnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqq3n3wr, I watched the announcement yesterday but came away with a lot of unanswered questions that I'll detail below. I would legitimately love to hear the answers to these if at all possible!

How is Ocean non-custodial for the average miner?

On the stream it was mentioned that payout thresholds are 0.0108 BTC (but nostr:npub1wnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqq3n3wr was unsure), a number that would take a pleb miner with an S9 ~470d to reach.

Until he reaches that payout point, all of his mined sats seem to be entirely custodied by Ocean.

How does Ocean decentralize mining today?

I was so excited by the teases and pre-announcements for Ocean as it sounded like exactly what I wanted in a Bitcoin pool. Unfortunately, it sounds like all of the decentralization possible is yet to be release, including StratumV2 and any ability for miners to submit block templates themselves.

Did I miss anything that makes Ocean more decentralized than other pools today?

Why is Ocean not open source?

If Ocean is as revolutionary and decentralizing as it's being made out to be, wouldn't the best thing for Bitcoin be that all pools switch over time to the same mode?

If so, why isn't Ocean open-sourcing any of it's protocol or code? In the announcement it seemed that nostr:npub1wnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqq3n3wr was bragging that no competitor would be able to "reproduce" their lead dev's code, thus keeping their competitive edge.

There was no mention to my knowledge of open source, but it's possible I missed it!

What guarantee do miners have that you won't censor transactions?

As miners cannot submit their own block templates right now and the source is not open code, miners have to rely on manually checking a visual block template on your site to find censorship.

nostr:npub1lh273a4wpkup00stw8dzqjvvrqrfdrv2v3v4t8pynuezlfe5vjnsnaa9nk has a history of censoring what he viewed as "spam," and there was a lot of time spent in the conference talking about how bad Ordinals are and how bad pools are that mine them.

What guarantees or promises do miners have that you won't censor transactions you don't like?

How will Ocean handle regulatory pressure to enact KYC?

In the event that regulators of the Feds come knocking and want you to implement KYC (as seems to be the case with other pools), what will you do?

What will Ocean's fee model be after the 0% period?

There was a lot of talk about how most pools subsidize larger miners and charge exhorbitant fees to smaller miners during the conference. One thing that wasn't ever mentioned was what Ocean's fee policy will be after the 2mo 0% fee period.

Could you explain how the fee model will work?

Conclusion

That's enough questions for now, I think, but I look forward to getting answers to these! We have a desperate need for decentralized mining in Bitcoin and a massive gap today.

I look forward to hearing back 🙂


Meant to tag nostr:npub1qtvl2em0llpnnllffhat8zltugwwz97x79gfmxfz4qk52n6zpk3qq87dze, not sure what happened there 😅


All of this. I would enjoy more clarity as well.
nostr:nevent1qqsgegeru7nddtflph4rrxgje8xz8tjgsnqthhd85h3fxrgcjpk8m6gpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3eryvfwvdhk6q3qtr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusxpqqqqqqz27ccu0


Don't trust, verify

nostr:nevent1qqsgegeru7nddtflph4rrxgje8xz8tjgsnqthhd85h3fxrgcjpk8m6gpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsygzcatvzlg2m25qffal4leyqfc87wkmhnkl096djq5g7entfumgglypsgqqqqqqscwke6f


Thanks for asking these important questions. The hype yesterday was disturbingly one-sided.


Regarding custody they mentioned lightning would be integrated in 2024, so that would allow the S9 pleb miners to withdraw more or less instantaneous?


I'd recommend listening to the latest nostr:nprofile1qqspnlha0uuujmf07ahc0amz0tnez3dujuwc4v3jq5q9jwd94yfmctcpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsz9thwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wghxyee0qywhwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnzd96xxmmfdejhytnnda3kjctv9uxrvvvv  pod, they went over the business model / fee rate in some depth.

https://stephanlivera.com/episode/528/


#content


i love how your asking all the questions i want answered


You’re* 🤦♀


Asking all the right questions 🤔


most important q not asked is. Will namecoin be merge-mined nostr:npub1lh273a4wpkup00stw8dzqjvvrqrfdrv2v3v4t8pynuezlfe5vjnsnaa9nk?


Will do when I have time!


I am very interested in seeing how lightning payouts would work for small miners. I would think that liquidity would constantly be an issue since virtually all lightning transactions would be going in a single direction.

Would each block found result in the need for a new lightning channel? What about the liquidity of the channel partners to the broader network? Or would Ocean have a channel opened to each entity mining with them and the channel would just need to be rebalanced once in a while?


Good and important questions. Thank you for posting them.


they mentioned on the stream that 'phase 2' would be Lightning... so  it's quite possible this relates to sub threshold payouts.

seems like the logical thing to do, anyway...


wd minimum around 1 million sat. wtf 👇

nostr:note13j3j8eax66kn7r02xxv39jwvywhy3pxqh0w60f0zjvx33yrv0h5sz8xs3g


Yeah, kinda weird that there's so much hype about it when there's basically 0 technical info out there. Hope it's legit.


Some very valid questions here. Yesterday I only picked up on the one that was pretty shocking to hear when they said nobody will compete with their code.

If you're truly in this for the good of bitcoin succeeding then you'd make it open source. Not got ourselves another Coinkite have we 😂😂
nostr:nevent1qqsgegeru7nddtflph4rrxgje8xz8tjgsnqthhd85h3fxrgcjpk8m6gpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgq3qtr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusxpqqqqqqz6swsn0


Just get #Monero
You know better than me that's the only solution


When rw Bitcoin mining pools decentralized? A list of critical questions.

nostr:nevent1qqsgegeru7nddtflph4rrxgje8xz8tjgsnqthhd85h3fxrgcjpk8m6gppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzqk82mqh6zk64qz200a07fqzwpln4kauahmewnvs9z8kv660x6z8eqvzqqqqqqymg9xw4


Someone else did the typing for me. 😉

nostr:nevent1qqsgegeru7nddtflph4rrxgje8xz8tjgsnqthhd85h3fxrgcjpk8m6gpzemhxue69uhkzafwwfjkcctev93xcefwdaexwq3qtr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusxpqqqqqqzn3lz8j


Did Bitcoin mining change forever yesterday 🤔

Hey nostr:npub1zmc6qyqdfnllhnzzxr5wpepfpnzcf8q6m3jdveflmgruqvd3qa9sjv7f60 l, @npub1lh273a4wpkup00stw8dzqjvvrqrfdrv2v3v4t8pynuezlfe5vjnsnaa9nk, and @npub1wnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqq3n3wr, I watched the announcement yesterday but came away with a lot of unanswered questions that I'll detail below. I would legitimately love to hear the answers to these if at all possible!

How is Ocean non-custodial for the average miner?

On the stream it was mentioned that payout thresholds are 0.0108 BTC (but nostr:npub1wnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqq3n3wr was unsure), a number that would take a pleb miner with an S9 ~470d to reach.

Until he reaches that payout point, all of his mined sats seem to be entirely custodied by Ocean.

How does Ocean decentralize mining today?

I was so excited by the teases and pre-announcements for Ocean as it sounded like exactly what I wanted in a Bitcoin pool. Unfortunately, it sounds like all of the decentralization possible is yet to be release, including StratumV2 and any ability for miners to submit block templates themselves.

Did I miss anything that makes Ocean more decentralized than other pools today?

Why is Ocean not open source?

If Ocean is as revolutionary and decentralizing as it's being made out to be, wouldn't the best thing for Bitcoin be that all pools switch over time to the same mode?

If so, why isn't Ocean open-sourcing any of it's protocol or code? In the announcement it seemed that nostr:npub1wnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqq3n3wr was bragging that no competitor would be able to "reproduce" their lead dev's code, thus keeping their competitive edge.

There was no mention to my knowledge of open source, but it's possible I missed it!

What guarantee do miners have that you won't censor transactions?

As miners cannot submit their own block templates right now and the source is not open code, miners have to rely on manually checking a visual block template on your site to find censorship.

nostr:npub1lh273a4wpkup00stw8dzqjvvrqrfdrv2v3v4t8pynuezlfe5vjnsnaa9nk has a history of censoring what he viewed as "spam," and there was a lot of time spent in the conference talking about how bad Ordinals are and how bad pools are that mine them.

What guarantees or promises do miners have that you won't censor transactions you don't like?

How will Ocean handle regulatory pressure to enact KYC?

In the event that regulators of the Feds come knocking and want you to implement KYC (as seems to be the case with other pools), what will you do?

What will Ocean's fee model be after the 0% period?

There was a lot of talk about how most pools subsidize larger miners and charge exhorbitant fees to smaller miners during the conference. One thing that wasn't ever mentioned was what Ocean's fee policy will be after the 2mo 0% fee period.

Could you explain how the fee model will work?

Conclusion

That's enough questions for now, I think, but I look forward to getting answers to these! We have a desperate need for decentralized mining in Bitcoin and a massive gap today.

I look forward to hearing back 🙂


Great questions, Seth.

Note,  LukeDashjr blocked  Seth immediately after he asked these questions.

nostr:note13j3j8eax66kn7r02xxv39jwvywhy3pxqh0w60f0zjvx33yrv0h5sz8xs3g


Was there any answers to these


*were *questions