This sets a very, very bad precedent.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/founders-and-ceo-cryptocurrency-mixing-service-arrested-and-charged-money-laundering


We have let this happen. The community is to blame. We have not stood up to governments and their Violence and now it will continue. We need as a community to be strong and stop our involvement with governments.


I can only think was the wirlpool built in to there wallet 🤷


This is easier said than done, but I agree to some extent. Could bad people have used Samouri to launder money? Yes. Can I use my steak knife to commit murder? Yes. That doesn't mean we should stop selling steak knives because some asshole did an asshole thing. Punishing innocent people over stupidity is itself stupid.


Eventually Bitcoin would either be made illegal or certain ways of using (I.e. privately) would be made illegal. They were always going to fight us.


I agree totally. Whirlpool is just a tool. There was no injured party! This make the difference. I say we are to blame because we have not learned the difference between what actually is a crime. Then once we learn the true definition of a crime,  we need to pull our support from the person or institution that is trying to obfuscate the term crime to hold anyone in duress as they see fit.


Gulp


The difference is, murder is a crime. Money laundering is a "crime."

Have you ever met a money laundering victim? Someone can be a victim of theft, but there are no victims of money laundering.

Arresting someone for money laundering because they developed a private transaction tool is like arresting someone for "aiding and abetting murder" because they manufactured the steak knife a murderer used to cut his steak a week before he committed murder.

Adopting the state's framing is losing the battle before a single shot has been fired. Money laundering is not a crime.  Crimes have victims. There are no victims of money laundering.


They lost any plausible deniability when they made clear that they knew it would be used for black market operations. It’s unfortunate, but their opsec was shit. We have to rely on decentralized tools for this stuff and no one should be promoting them for illegal purposes


I always like the roads analogy. Murderers use them to. Sometimes even to drive a truck with explosives into a building. The act of violence or property destruction is the crime. Everything else is noise and unjustifiable BS to gain more control.


This is very shitty


Totally agreed. They're no more guilty than internet service providers.


Have you ever met a money laundering victim?
Yeah, the IRS


What? Why do you launder money?

Because you have stolen it from someone.

Of course there's a victim.


The crime there is called theft


Money laundering is done with money obtained through any non-state-sanctioned reason.  This could include other victimless “crimes” like selling contraband.


A) No, money may be laundered for any number of reasons, such as when someone doesn't want their legitimately-earned money tracked when they buy an illegal plant (that should also not be illegal) for medicinal or even recreational purposes.

B) If one wishes to launder money because they stole it from someone, then the act of theft is the crime, not the act of laundering money.


Then theft is the crime. That’s already illegal.

There is no victim of money laundering.


Money laundering is not theft. It's erasing the trail of where the money came from. Hiding the origins of the money. All crypto exchanges have this going on without their knowing.

The real problem the 3 letters have with this is they can't see how, what, where or why, and they want to force you to pay taxes for services you don't want and didn't ask for.


The act of laundering money after theft is part of the crime. It is meant to conceal the theft. It is not separate from it.

And clearly I've given no thought to buying drugs without getting caught.


How will you be standing up to governments exactly?


I'm having a hard time processing the idea that the act of laundering money through politcal processes is a victimless crime. The US politicians are laundering massive amounts of taxpayer value through the military industrial complex in order to enrich themselves. They are killing hundreds of thousands in the process and robbing the people of their money at the same time.


I get that the three letter agencies want to see all transactions for the purpose of control, but the idea that there are no victims is absurd. Just ask 600,000 Ukrainians.


I don’t think you’re referring to money laundering.  Without that misplaced term, you’ve done well pointing out some of the evils that are a state’s bread and butter.

Taxation is theft and all theft is a crime with a victim.
Murder is a crime with a victim.
Selling something Big Brother doesn’t want you to sell is not a crime with a victim.
Bitcoin mixing is not a crime with a victim.


Correct. We shouldn't call things money laundering that are not money laundering. Mixing is not money laundering.


Bitcoin mixing does fit the state’s definition of money laundering.
The point is that money laundering itself does not have a victim.


The state can make anything a crime. But some things are immoral and others aren't. If they aren't then they aren't wrong, no matter what the state says. It's just a question of whether we can do anything about it.


The killing and the robbing are the crimes.

The fact that they are shady with the money and don’t disclose where it actually goes is just a cherry on top.

If they were private citizens that wouldn’t even be a consideration, but since it’s “public” money there’s an argument that obfuscation is criminal.


In that case the victim is a victim of theft. The crime committed was theft. There is no victim of "money laundering." The money laundering has no impact on the victim of theft because their money is already gone.


With citizens with your reasoning ability, it is to be expected that the gangs in power do whatever the fuck they want to us.


Governments only work by participation.


Well said.  The victim is the state losing tax revenue.


The term "money laundering" is itself a relatively recent term (e.g. no money laundering mentioned in 18th century literature). Like "obstruction of justice," money laundering victimizes the state law enforcement apparatus. It's an invention of a self-preserving bureaucracy.

That the state can be "victim" of a crime is itself an absurdity. The mark of an overgrown institution more so than a true matter of morality.


And how does one withdraw?

And how does one deal with the threat of intrusion from the state after withdrawal?

I’m all for agorism and anarchism but in the meantime it can’t hurt to sick some red state AGs on the federal criminals to tie them up in the meantime.


All that can be found on the internet. There are many good resources out there. It took me about 4 years of study to come to know how to do these things.


I’m sure you’re a galaxy brain (being sincere) so don’t take this the wrong way but…

It’s hard to take you seriously when you can’t clearly state real action we can take without saying go to the internet.

I don’t think being passive while the state intrudes into our lives via or diet, schooling system, legal system etc is a good strategy. I’m all for:
hodling
nostr
eating local beef
forming communities
Deleting all social media
Growing our own food
Homeschooling
Minimizing tax liabilities

But what good is NGU and all this other stuff if the state just intrudes in your life anyway? What good is all this if you’re in jail while they forcibly trans your kids? This is existential and it’s appropriate to use all means available. I think getting real and getting red state AGs to go after federal criminals is a start.


I appreciate your interest in this conversation. I have stated things vaguely as I do not know you, as you could be anyone.

Solutions always exist especially when we are all begin held under duress. (know what this means)

I am offering you resources now in which you will have to study on your own.

I am doing this because I CARE as I have no obligation to response back to you.

1st and foremost this is a Spiritual Issue. So the 1st resource in the list will help with that.

Resources:
1. https://whatonearthishappening.com: Start with podcast number one and work your way through (it will take about 2 years) Here you will learn most everything you will need to know.

2. https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/natural-law-and-bitcoin (Natural Law and Bitcoin)

3. https://www.bitchute.com/video/PqXS0Hfd6lKi/ (Opinions on how this world works)

4. https://www.supremelaw.org/authors/mercier/ (Opinions on contracts)

5. https://pmaweekly.com/ (Opinions on how to get out of government jurisdiction)

6. https://onestupidfuck.com/ (Opinions and their solutions on how this world works)

7. https://solutionsempowerment.org/ (Opinions and their solutions on how this world works)

8. https://www.inpowermovement.org/ (Opinions and their solutions on how this world works)

9. Study Equity and Contract law and "tacit" agreements and "Rescission"

This will take a good 3 years to digest.

Good luck to you.


Thank you